Homecoming The Symbiote Thread: Venom, Carnage, and all that jazz

[CaptainWagner]

I forgot he played Fury. I think I mentally blocked out that there was any Nick Fury before Samuel L. Jackson.

Eh, I can't blame you for doing that t:

 

[I'm Venom]

I don't think Joker and Carnage are comparable. Joker's character went a lot further than chaos and trying to push people to insanity. Not to mention Joker did it to prove a point about himself and everyone else. That deep down everyone is no different than he is when push comes to shove. That's taken from Joker's most famous and popular story, The Killing Joke;

That was not all he did in TDK. Joker took over the Gotham underworld. He burned all their money to prove a point. Joker toyed with Batman, and tested his mettle. He formed a twisted obsession with Batman to the point where he didn't want to kill him because challenging him was just too much fun. Joker plays sadistic games, like making Batman choose between saving Rachel and Harvey Dent, and then ends up tricking him anyway.

Where is this kind of deep character potential in Carnage? All he does is kill people. Random slaughter. He has no interesting relationship with Spider-Man. He has no aspirations beyond just killing. Look at his most famous story, Maximum Carnage. 12 straight issues of Carnage and his little psycho gang just wandering around NY killing randomly. He's as shallow as a puddle in the Sahara desert. He's more comparable to Zsasz than he is to the Joker. Zsasz thinks he's doing humanity a service killing them because he thinks he's freeing them from the misery of their existence.

Their motivations were similar though: cause chaos and destruction just for the sake of chaos and destruction.

I'd take Carnage over Venom any day because I can buy Kasady as a character, and why he does what he does. Not to mention he is much more fun, and more scary than Venom. Carnage is what he is, and Marvel don't pretend he's anything more, or even try to elevate him to anything more. Which is why he works. He stays within the boundaries of his character.

Meh, Carnage is a red version of Venom.

 

[zeptron]

They shouldn't try to cram the whole thing into just one movie. Peter first has to get the black suit, discover it's evil and get rid of it. And also introduce Eddie Brock and develop his hatred for Spider-man. Spider-man 3 tried doing it all in one movie and failed miserably. Although that was more on the case of them having so many unnecessary stuff.

Can the symbiote/Venom be done in one movie? Possibly. But you'll still probably end up with another case of Venom only having about ten minutes of screentime where Spidey beats him. If they're gonna go with the symbiote again, they should try something different. Have Brock get it at the end setting up Venom for the next one. It gives him more to do and can probably be used to his full potential. There also needs be a supervillain for Spidey to fight while wearing the black suit. Unless people just wanna go 3/4's of the movie with no viable threat for him to fight.

I don't think Joker and Carnage are comparable. Joker's character went a lot further than chaos and trying to push people to insanity. Not to mention Joker did it to prove a point about himself and everyone else. That deep down everyone is no different than he is when push comes to shove. That's taken from Joker's most famous and popular story, The Killing Joke;



That was not all he did in TDK. Joker took over the Gotham underworld. He burned all their money to prove a point. Joker toyed with Batman, and tested his mettle. He formed a twisted obsession with Batman to the point where he didn't want to kill him because challenging him was just too much fun. Joker plays sadistic games, like making Batman choose between saving Rachel and Harvey Dent, and then ends up tricking him anyway.

Where is this kind of deep character potential in Carnage? All he does is kill people. Random slaughter. He has no interesting relationship with Spider-Man. He has no aspirations beyond just killing. Look at his most famous story, Maximum Carnage. 12 straight issues of Carnage and his little psycho gang just wandering around NY killing randomly. He's as shallow as a puddle in the Sahara desert. He's more comparable to Zsasz than he is to the Joker. Zsasz thinks he's doing humanity a service killing them because he thinks he's freeing them from the misery of their existence.

This. The thing about Joker is that he's the master of misdirection and psychological warfare. He likes to torment his victims . He's a psychopath who hurts many, many people, but there is a method to his madness and most depictions of him do show him as having issues that go much deeper than just his violence.

However Carnage's entire thing is destruction. He just kills people the second he sees them. As stated he's more like Zsasz than Joker really.

 

[ernesth100]

So I wonder if they ever decided to do a Planet of the Symbiote's Movie could they do it Spider-Man Unlimited style.

 

[The Joker]

Their motivations were similar though: cause chaos and destruction just for the sake of chaos and destruction.

Abolutely 100% untrue. Joker didn't want to cause it just for the sake of it. He had specific reasons for it. Everything he did in the movie had a specific motive behind it. No offense but you were not paying attention to the movie if you didn't get that.

Try and force Batman to unmask? He was toying with him and testing him to see what he would do. This was how he got his jollies with Batman. Batman made it all fun for him. Joker, like the copycats, was a reaction to Batman's presence in Gotham. "You're just a freak....like me".

Deliberately getting himself arrested? So he could get his hands on Dent and the Mob accountant Lau.

Burn the mob's money? To send the message that he's bringing in a better class of criminal who is not just obsessed with money.

Kill Rachel? To push Dent over the edge.

Threaten to blow up a hospital? To stop Mr. Reese from spilling Batman's identity on TV, and to create an opportunity to get to Dent to screw with his mind more and send him on a murder rampage.

Try to force the ferries to blow each other up? To prove deep down everyone is as ugly as he is.

Everything Joker did had a reason. It was not just chaos for the hell of it.

Meh, Carnage is a red version of Venom.

So to you Venom is a one note serial killer, except he's a black version of that. I won't pretend I understand the thinking behind that one.

Btw I see you didn't try and tackle LEVI's massively brilliant post against you. Very wise decision.

This. The thing about Joker is that he's the master of misdirection and psychological warfare. He likes to torment his victims . He's a psychopath who hurts many, many people, but there is a method to his madness and most depictions of him do show him as having issues that go much deeper than just his violence.

However Carnage's entire thing is destruction. He just kills people the second he sees them. As stated he's more like Zsasz than Joker really.

 

[Keehar]

Do you want to see the symbiote saga play out in Marvel's Spiderman films? Why or why not? If yes, how would it best be done? Discuss below.

No because all the symbiotes are a waste of space. Whether it's in a comics, cartoon, or a movie. They're flashy characters with nothing going for them except they are pretty to look at. They belong in a Michael Bay movie.

Carnage has no moral code. He just likes to kill people.

That's fifty million times more interesting than anti hero "Waaaah waaaah Spider-Man ruined my life. We hate him" meat head Venom.

Their motivations were similar though: cause chaos and destruction just for the sake of chaos and destruction.

Go read a comic book or three before uttering such blasphemous garbage about comic's greatest villain. I'm not talking about your so called red Venom. What ever the hell that means.

 

[Lantern Venom]

The last thing I want to see is someone who looks like that and I see like that helping people like so:

I mean you got one of the scariest looking villains. I mean Venom really looks like the comic book equivalent to a Xenomorph but the problem is you give him this genetic as backstory of wanting revenge. You can only do that in so many stories.
.

That's one of the greatest moments ever in a Spider-man comic. What makes Venom such a layered character is his capacity to be compassionate and hateful in the same breath. He's constantly at war with himself as much as Spider-man.

I don't think Joker and Carnage are comparable. Joker's character went a lot further than chaos and trying to push people to insanity. Not to mention Joker did it to prove a point about himself and everyone else. That deep down everyone is no different than he is when push comes to shove. That's taken from Joker's most famous and popular story, The Killing Joke;

That was not all he did in TDK. Joker took over the Gotham underworld. He burned all their money to prove a point. Joker toyed with Batman, and tested his mettle. He formed a twisted obsession with Batman to the point where he didn't want to kill him because challenging him was just too much fun. Joker plays sadistic games, like making Batman choose between saving Rachel and Harvey Dent, and then ends up tricking him anyway.

Where is this kind of deep character potential in Carnage? All he does is kill people. Random slaughter. He has no interesting relationship with Spider-Man. He has no aspirations beyond just killing.

Read Carnage: Mind Bomb some time. When the Joker said, "You see, madness, as you know, is like gravity. All it takes is a little push!" It reminded me of Carnage showing Matthew Kurtz (his therapist in the comic) how he, Casady, saw the world. It showed Carnage's vision of reality: a world without rules. Does that sound familiar? He literally drove his therapist insane.

Carnage doesn't operate on the same large scale that the Joker does, but his love of suffering is very similar. It's something that Marvel could use for the movies, but they couldn't cut corners.

"

Imagine if Marvel's Carnage turns out like the one in the 90's Series?

That's my fear. He had to be toned down massively for that, but he shouldn't be for the big screen.

 

[Keehar]

I've read Carnage Mind Bomb. It's time I'll never get back in my life. It's gory trash. It's nothing like the Joker.

Get this, Carnage grabs his shrink and screws a symbiote tendril into his brain and starts to squirt bits of his mind into the shrink's head so he can see how Carnage thinks. He had to drill a hole in his head and put his own psycho mind into this guy's head to make him go nuts. He ain't even got any good reason for doing this either.

That's what happens when you try to make 1D characters into 3D ones. You know if they ever get desperate enough to use Carnage that he'll be toned down for the kids. No way is some slaughter happy villain that kills people with symbiote shaped knives and axes in cold blood is going to get put in any movie that way that families will be seeing with their kids.

 

[Lantern Venom]

I've read Carnage Mind Bomb. It's time I'll never get back in my life. It's gory trash. It's nothing like the Joker.

Get this, Carnage grabs his shrink and screws a symbiote tendril into his brain and starts to squirt bits of his mind into the shrink's head so he can see how Carnage thinks. He had to drill a hole in his head and put his own psycho mind into this guy's head to make him go nuts. He ain't even got any good reason for doing this either.

I couldn't disagree more. Even as an avid fan Stephen King, Dean Koontz, and Anne Rice, Mind Bomb ranks right up there as one of the most disturbing things I've ever read. It's the world according to Cletus Kasady, and how he would infect the world if he could.

If Marvel wanted to make an impression on audiences and do something shocking, Carnage would be the way to go. Instead of disposable villains that say silly things like, "Betty, Betty, bo-Betty, banana-fana, fo-Fetty!", we'd get this:

"You're probably asking, why do I kill? Well, simple answer--It's pretty. Waking up in the morning and knowing you're going to kill someone... it's a beautiful thing. Makes me feel like a gunship, like my engine's only turning over when I'm moving and killing. Makes me feel like God on the first monday morning."


He's a fever dream at full throttle.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

That is exactly why Carnage is better. Look at Venom.

When I see that, I think of this:

The last thing I want to see is someone who looks like that and I see like that helping people like so:

I mean you got one of the scariest looking villains. I mean Venom really looks like the comic book equivalent to a Xenomorph but the problem is you give him this genetic as backstory of wanting revenge. You can only do that in so many stories.

Venom is really the equivalent to Hush from Batman. Hush is motivated by revenge like Venom. The difference with Hush and Venom is Hush is a mastermind. He has the intelligence and money to hire villains to work for him.

You said he won't attack Aunt May and Mary Jane. That's the problem and why Hush went from being Venom like to better.

In Heart of Hush, he decided not to attack Bruce physically. He attack the one woman he loves and literally steals her heart.

He does this because he wants to her Bruce in the worst way possible.

And if that wasn't enough in the story; we learn that Hush, who was a brilliant surgeon, performed plastic surgery on his own face to look just like Bruce Wayne.

In Batman Eternal, Hush went to Wayne Manor and attacked Alfred by injecting some of Scarecrow's fear gas straight into Alfred's brain which made Batman decide to put him in a coma.

I mean again, Venom is something out of a horror film and they never kept going with the horror film direction for Venom as a character. It's like they aren't afraid to get their hands dirty.

It's also why Carnage is better. He is everything Venom should be. He is the stuff of nightmares. He's a serial killed mixed with alien goop and looks like something out of a sci-fi horror. That's scary.

He also doesn't want revenge or have a vendetta against Parker which makes him even greater and more dangerous because he isn't just striking Peter's family but anyone who he finds.

Agreed so much. lol funny that Carnage who come second and have less about him is better than Venom. But Venom is so bad that he is easy to improve on.

I think the Joker himself summed it up best when they did that Batman/Spider-Man crossover;

Joker is the Orson Welles of crime. Carnage is David Hasselhoff You can't compare the two.

lol that best comparison. Venom is Dolph Lundgren.

This. The thing about Joker is that he's the master of misdirection and psychological warfare. He likes to torment his victims . He's a psychopath who hurts many, many people, but there is a method to his madness and most depictions of him do show him as having issues that go much deeper than just his violence.

However Carnage's entire thing is destruction. He just kills people the second he sees them. As stated he's more like Zsasz than Joker really.

Agreed. Joker is master criminal. Carnage is just serial killer with no pattern.

 

[Lantern Venom]

Agreed so much. lol funny that Carnage who come second and have less about him is better than Venom. But Venom is so bad that he is easy to improve on.

.

"Don't keep those feelings for me repressed, Ocky baby. You know you want me."

 

[ernesth100]

What....the literal...freak.

 

[harryoscop]

Let's get real here guys, Marvel is going to do the Symbiotes, one way or another.
Out of all Spider-Man's villains (besides Norman), it has the most potential to branch into other franchises.
the "Black Suit" is my favorite Spider-Man storyline, and I would like to see it properly adapted to the big screen.

 

[JOE]

They can't make the black suit something it's not, but they sure as hell can do a better job than they did in SM3. I'm all for Venom in the 3rd solo movie.

 

[harryoscop]

When Marvel does the Black suit (yes I said "Does" it's bound to happen) it needs to look like this:

 

[JOE]

No web lines, just black with a blue/purple tint and the big white spider connecting the back to the front. Oh, and do the white patches on his hands this time.

 

[CaptainWagner]

Exactly. I hated the web lines in SM3, it just made it look like a black version of the regular suit, instead of a living suit of armor.

 

[Keehar]

I couldn't disagree more. Even as an avid fan Stephen King, Dean Koontz, and Anne Rice, Mind Bomb ranks right up there as one of the most disturbing things I've ever read. It's the world according to Cletus Kasady, and how he would infect the world if he could.

If Marvel wanted to make an impression on audiences and do something shocking, Carnage would be the way to go. Instead of disposable villains that say silly things like, "Betty, Betty, bo-Betty, banana-fana, fo-Fetty!", we'd get this:

"You're probably asking, why do I kill? Well, simple answer--It's pretty. Waking up in the morning and knowing you're going to kill someone... it's a beautiful thing. Makes me feel like a gunship, like my engine's only turning over when I'm moving and killing. Makes me feel like God on the first monday morning."

HA! Only a comic book board could you get to see someone comparing a symbiote story to the great works of Anne Rice and Stephen King. Shock surprise it also was said by a member with Venom in their username. What next, Rob Zombie is the next Alfred Hitchcock. You must be easily disturbed or easily entertained if you thought that Mind bomb crap was as good as Anne Rice's and King's stuff.

Oh look a serial killer quote waffling about how killing makes him feel god like and great. The basic pop psychology for any serial killer profile. They do it because it makes them feel great. They get the ultimate high off it. Who ever made the comparison to Batman's version of Carnage, Mr Zsasz, got it dead on right.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NMdKf8bEKQ&t=5m17s

 

[I'm Venom]

Btw I see you didn't try and tackle LEVI's massively brilliant post against you. Very wise decision.

Ah that's a good one.

Go read a comic book or three before uttering such blasphemous garbage about comic's greatest villain. I'm not talking about your so called red Venom. What ever the hell that means.

Yeah, no.

 

[Spideyfan360]

Venom could take up a whole Trilogy if it's done right.
Venom needs a REAL representation in film. Venom is one of Spider-Man most, if not THE most, Iconic Spider-Man villain of all time, it straight out BAFFLES me how he was treated poorly for his only Film Appearance so far. I hope the New Trilogy can finally get Venom done right.
No, scratch that, he could probably take up an entire MCU PHASE if he wanted to.

 

[I'm Venom]

OH, and Venom.

...he's supposed to be scary. That's the key. Make the wall crawler who Spidey can't sense a scary threat, and you have the ultimate Venom story. He's the way Peter could've gone after his parents died. Brock can't let go of the past, and that's what connects him and Peter, and it's why he feels resentful toward Peter. Venom could make a sequel villain. He requires a full movie to properly set up. The suit has to first have its own story where Peter gives it up...before Brock ever gets to throw a punch.

 

[PeterBenParker]

 

[harryoscop]

Hello Max Dillion

 

[PeterBenParker]

Hello Max Dillion

He'd be great for Max if they went the SSM route (obviously not the electric eels origin since that's already been done), but he's one of my favorites for Brock personally.

Him, Ackles, or Alex Russell would be my picks.

 

[harryoscop]

Alan Ritchson is my pick: