The Trump Thread!!! - Part 1

[roach]

Trump has never said one racist thing in the debate.

This is true. He hasn't limited his racist speech to one thing

 

[Sawyer]

Trump has never said one racist thing in the debate.

 

[Unbreakable Lex]

Not saying mosques should be shut down?

He talked about shutting down and putting surveilance on "some of the more radical" mosques. Again, that's not racist. These mosques have been deemed "radical" by intelligence. This is more about security. You may disagree with his tactics, but it's not racist.

Not calling illegal immigrants rapists?

That's not a racist statement. He never said all illegal immigrants. He said that Mexico is sending over their rapists. It may not be true, but that isn't racist.

Not saying that New Jersey Muslims celebrated 9/11?

Again, this is not racist.

Why do you all insist on making me defend Donald Trump? Learn what racism is! Racism is not when one person talks about another race. C'mon guys.

 

[InCali]

He talked about shutting down and putting surveilance on "some of the more radical" mosques. Again, that's not racist. These mosques have been deemed "radical" by intelligence. This is more about security. You may disagree with his tactics, but it's not racist.




That's not a racist statement. He never said all illegal immigrants. He said that Mexico is sending over their rapists. It may not be true, but that isn't racist.



Again, this is not racist.

Why do you all insist on making me defend Donald Trump? Learn what racism is! Racism is not when one person talks about another race. C'mon guys.

What is your definition of racism?

 

[DeadPresident]

rac·ism
ˈrāˌsizəm/
noun
the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
- prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.


According to Google.

I'm sure as hell not defending Trump, but in general there has seemed to develop this unwritten and unspoken phenomenon where just referring to someone's race/ethnicity/religion is immediately "racist", which is a bastardization of the word's actual meaning. Trump's reasons for saying what he says are in all likelihood racist, but the semantic construction of the actual utterances - not so much.

 

[roach]

Wanting a database of all Muslim Americans is up there
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-muslim-database_564ef704e4b0d4093a573527

 

[DeadPresident]

Wanting a database of all Muslim Americans is up there
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-muslim-database_564ef704e4b0d4093a573527

That is racist, if he says and means all Muslims, then it can definitely be connoted as racist.

But if someone says they would like to keep closer track of known radical Islamists, then I have trouble seeing how it's racist. I haven't paid enough attention to his specific phrasing so I don't know, but if he wants a database of all Muslims that's pretty unforgivable.

 

[InCali]

rac·ism
ˈrāˌsizəm/
noun
the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
- prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.


According to Google.

I'm sure as hell not defending Trump, but in general there has seemed to develop this unwritten and unspoken phenomenon where just referring to someone's race/ethnicity/religion is immediately "racist", which is a bastardization of the word's actual meaning. Trump's reasons for saying what he says are in all likelihood racist, but the semantic construction of the actual utterances - not so much.

I was very interested in getting Lex's definition, but since others have thrown in their hats, I'll expound on what I was trying to get at. I think the definition you've given is fine, but I also believe racism does not have to point a finger at "all" of any group and I'll explain why.

You don't have to believe that everyone of any group is mentally, physically, or otherwise inferior to make a racist comment. If the "effect" of what you are saying has the tendency to color any grouping in a particular manner, I would categorize this as a racist comment.

I think the people who would say "All Irish people are smarter than all Mexican people" are very few and far between. From someone who is half Irish and half Mexican, I would go as far to say that rather than being just racist, it is also ridiculously stupid and is, therefore, of less consequence than more subtle comments.

When you say things like "Mexico is sending their rapists, criminals, etc.", what you are doing is coloring the minds of those who are listening and believe what you say. "I wonder if that Mexican is one of those rapists Donald Trump was talking about the other day." In other words, what was said casts a broad net of suspicion over a particular group; most of whom are incorrectly classified as criminals.

Now, can you make the comments Trump made without it being a racist statement? I would say that you can, but you would need to take some care in explaining why you made the statement to begin with and not just later saying "well, I didn't mean ALL of them". If you are giving the impression that the Mexicans coming across the border are mostly criminals without being very specific about why you are making that statement, you cast doubt and aspersions on everyone. The same goes with statements regarding practicing Muslims.

Another aspect that I won't delve fully into is that there is a power relationship in racism. Someone saying something about Donald Trump being an arrogant, self aggrandizing, honkey, MF is certainly disparaging. Donald Trump using his wealth and influence to disparage those who have less power and resources is an entirely different matter.

I believe Trump has made racist statements and have tried to explain exactly what I mean when I say that.

 

[DeadPresident]

I was very interested in getting Lex's definition, but since others have thrown in their hats, I'll expound on what I was trying to get at. I think the definition you've given is fine, but I also believe racism does not have to point a finger at "all" of any group and I'll explain why.

You don't have to believe that everyone of any group is mentally, physically, or otherwise inferior to make a racist comment. If the "effect" of what you are saying has the tendency to color any grouping in a particular manner, I would categorize this as a racist comment.

I think the people who would say "All Irish people are smarter than all Mexican people" are very few and far between. From someone who is half Irish and half Mexican, I would go as far to say that rather than being just racist, it is also ridiculously stupid and is, therefore, of less consequence than more subtle comments.

When you say things like "Mexico is sending their rapists, criminals, etc.", what you are doing is coloring the minds of those who are listening and believe what you say. "I wonder if that Mexican is one of those rapists Donald Trump was talking about the other day."

This is a fair sentiment, and up to a point I agree with you completely. However, I'd say that largely he stereotypes rather than makes abjectly racist comments. The fact that he makes a distinction by saying "their rapists, etc" implies that the rapists he's referring to are merely a segment of the population, he isn't saying Mexican = Rapist. But there is a damaging effect as a result of making that link, which others could broadly extend to mean Mexicans in general, sure.

What I do agree with is that his phrasing and his framing are clearly designed to create a certain reaction, as you say, but that's global politics and it isn't exclusive to Trump, although most other politicians are far more subtle and sophisticated in how they shroud their messages. As a disclaimer, I believe Trump is probably a bigot and a racist at heart, and I dislike him quite a lot, but that shouldn't discredit everything he says from a logical and isolated standpoint. Although some of it is patently racist, a few other things are somewhat logical in isolation - despite the overall person being a moron.

Now, can you make the comments Trump made without it being a racist statement? I would say that you can, but you would need to take some care in explaining why you made the statement to begin with and not just later saying "well, I didn't mean ALL of them". If you are giving the impression that the Mexicans coming across the border are mostly criminals without being very specific about why you are making that statement, you cast doubt and aspersions on everyone. The same goes with statements regarding practicing Muslims.

Another aspect that I won't delve fully into is that there is a power relationship in racism. Someone saying something about Donald Trump being an arrogant, self aggrandizing, honkey, MF is certainly disparaging. Donald Trump using his wealth and influence to disparage those who have less power and resources is an entirely different matter.

I believe Trump has made racist statements and have tried to explain exactly what I mean when I say that.

Sure, Trump should have clarified and qualified what he said at length, but he didn't, and probably on purpose because he knows that anything that can be construed as racist will be supported by a certain percentage of the Republican voter base. As far as him using his power and limelight having a different effect, I agree with that, but equally there are enough people with similar levels of attention saying the opposite. It doesn't excuse what he's doing, but I don't think people should blow it out of proportion.

I think some of his statements have been racist, but I also think some of them have been attempts at a practical solution, but ones that he articulated in such a way that they could easily be interpreted as racist because he (more likely his team) knows it resonates with far right wing exponents of his supporters.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Trump is a racist. Is he outright saying "I hate black people"? No. But he's saying everything you can say without having to wear sheets.

 

[summerteeth]

That is racist, if he says and means all Muslims, then it can definitely be connoted as racist.

But if someone says they would like to keep closer track of known radical Islamists, then I have trouble seeing how it's racist. I haven't paid enough attention to his specific phrasing so I don't know, but if he wants a database of all Muslims that's pretty unforgivable.

As insane and wrong as that proposal is, Muslim is not a race people....

 

[InCali]

This is a fair sentiment, and up to a point I agree with you completely. However, I'd say that largely he stereotypes rather than makes abjectly racist comments. The fact that he makes a distinction by saying "their rapists, etc" implies that the rapists he's referring to are merely a segment of the population, he isn't saying Mexican = Rapist. But there is a damaging effect as a result of making that link, which others could broadly extend to mean Mexicans in general, sure.

What I do agree with is that his phrasing and his framing are clearly designed to create a certain reaction, as you say, but that's global politics and it isn't exclusive to Trump, although most other politicians are far more subtle and sophisticated in how they shroud their messages. As a disclaimer, I believe Trump is probably a bigot and a racist at heart, and I dislike him quite a lot, but that shouldn't discredit everything he says from a logical and isolated standpoint. Although some of it is patently racist, a few other things are somewhat logical in isolation - despite the overall person being a moron.



Sure, Trump should have clarified and qualified what he said at length, but he didn't, and probably on purpose because he knows that anything that can be construed as racist will be supported by a certain percentage of the Republican voter base. As far as him using his power and limelight having a different effect, I agree with that, but equally there are enough people with similar levels of attention saying the opposite. It doesn't excuse what he's doing, but I don't think people should blow it out of proportion.

I think some of his statements have been racist, but I also think some of them have been attempts at a practical solution, but ones that he articulated in such a way that they could easily be interpreted as racist because he (more likely his team) knows it resonates with far right wing exponents of his supporters.

Fair sentiments on your part IMO. No one (and I mean no one) just goes around spouting racist comments 100% of the time. Anyone tries, with varying degrees of success, to craft solutions to problems. That certainly doesn't set DT above anyone else and "if" (which I believe to be the case) he makes statements about groupings of people with the intent of drudging up support from the racist elements in our society, that is racism of the worst kind and something that should be beneath those who want to be our public servants.

I didn't vote for McCain (Palin??? Really??), but I was very proud of him when he put that crazy woman in her place (the one saying Obama's a Muslim.....I think we all remember her). Romney, for all of his "glitz" and "charm" didn't have the courage to do the same.

 

[summerteeth]

Fair sentiments on your part IMO. No one (and I mean no one) just goes around spouting racist comments 100% of the time. Anyone tries, with varying degrees of success, to craft solutions to problems. That certainly doesn't set DT above anyone else and "if" (which I believe to be the case) he makes statements about groupings of people with the intent of drudging up support from the racist elements in our society, that is racism of the worst kind and something that should be beneath those who want to be our public servants.

I didn't vote for McCain (Palin??? Really??), but I was very proud of him when he put that crazy woman in her place (the one saying Obama's a Muslim.....I think we all remember her). Romney, for all of his "glitz" and "charm" didn't have the courage to do the same.

I don't recall Romney being in a similar situation where he let it slide.

 

[jokesonm3]

Wanting a database of all Muslim Americans is up there
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-muslim-database_564ef704e4b0d4093a573527

I now hate him way more than usual.

 

[InCali]

I don't recall Romney being in a similar situation where he let it slide.

It wasn't exactly the same (how many times do you get to see someone like the crazy lady anyway??? t: ), but there was a somewhat similar moment when Romney just flashed his smile and went on his merry way. Hey, it's not that unusual for any politician and I'm sure all of them are guilty of some form of this at one point. The McCain moment stood out to me (and I'm sure others also).

 

[Unbreakable Lex]

I was very interested in getting Lex's definition, but since others have thrown in their hats, I'll expound on what I was trying to get at. I think the definition you've given is fine, but I also believe racism does not have to point a finger at "all" of any group and I'll explain why.

Racism is very simple. It's the belief that a race of people is inferior to another group of people. That is racism. Playing up a stereotype is not racism. A white man is allowed to opine on other races without being a racist. It's true!

You don't have to believe that everyone of any group is mentally, physically, or otherwise inferior to make a racist comment. If the "effect" of what you are saying has the tendency to color any grouping in a particular manner, I would categorize this as a racist comment.

As long as you understand that you are making up and using your own definition of the word. I think this is very harmful and is what is contributing to the racial tensions we have now.

I think the people who would say "All Irish people are smarter than all Mexican people" are very few and far between. From someone who is half Irish and half Mexican, I would go as far to say that rather than being just racist, it is also ridiculously stupid and is, therefore, of less consequence than more subtle comments.

So maybe the world isn't as racist as we seem to think it is.

When you say things like "Mexico is sending their rapists, criminals, etc.", what you are doing is coloring the minds of those who are listening and believe what you say. "I wonder if that Mexican is one of those rapists Donald Trump was talking about the other day." In other words, what was said casts a broad net of suspicion over a particular group; most of whom are incorrectly classified as criminals.

I don't think that's the case at all. Trump is manipulating fears. Castro once opened up his prisons and let Cuba's bad boys loose on America. Trump is saying Mexico is doing the same thing. This isn't racist. Is Mexican even a race? I think this has more to do with your misunderstanding of what racism is and it's actually playing to your fears that everyone is going to be racist against Mexicans because Donald Trump said Mexico has rapists and murderers.

Now, can you make the comments Trump made without it being a racist statement?

I think we've established that you can.

I would say that you can,

Glad we are agreeing!

but you would need to take some care in explaining why you made the statement to begin with and not just later saying "well, I didn't mean ALL of them". If you are giving the impression that the Mexicans coming across the border are mostly criminals without being very specific about why you are making that statement, you cast doubt and aspersions on everyone. The same goes with statements regarding practicing Muslims.

Ah, the dreaded but...

That's the point. He wants people to be fearful of the illegal immigrants that Mexico is sending over. That isn't racist though.

Another aspect that I won't delve fully into is that there is a power relationship in racism. Someone saying something about Donald Trump being an arrogant, self aggrandizing, honkey, MF is certainly disparaging. Donald Trump using his wealth and influence to disparage those who have less power and resources is an entirely different matter.

Many Americans are disparaging Donald Trump for a lot of reasons. Donald Trump seems to be disparaging criminals and radicals. Who really needs to look in the mirror?

I believe Trump has made racist statements and have tried to explain exactly what I mean when I say that.

Still?

 

[DeadPresident]

Fair sentiments on your part IMO. No one (and I mean no one) just goes around spouting racist comments 100% of the time. Anyone tries, with varying degrees of success, to craft solutions to problems. That certainly doesn't set DT above anyone else and "if" (which I believe to be the case) he makes statements about groupings of people with the intent of drudging up support from the racist elements in our society, that is racism of the worst kind and something that should be beneath those who want to be our public servants.

I didn't vote for McCain (Palin??? Really??), but I was very proud of him when he put that crazy woman in her place (the one saying Obama's a Muslim.....I think we all remember her). Romney, for all of his "glitz" and "charm" didn't have the courage to do the same.

Look I have no doubt the guy is a bigot and a racist, but this is common across all political arenas globally. Why his camp is smart is they're hiding his prejudice behind legitimate issues. The USA is somewhat increasing their risk if they open their borders to refugees, it's highly likely that a radical exponent could enter during that process, but the way Trump and his ilk address it allow for racist Americans to feel like their views are being represented. It's a clever tactic.

All is fair in love and war, and politics may as well be war. It shouldn't surprise people that a politician trying to get elected will use anything, even another candidate's race/sexual orientation/gender to turn the tide in their favor. And they'll obviously use those demographic indicators to rally their support too.

 

[hitmanyr2k]

A Muslim database lol. It makes me wonder how a Muslim serving in the armed forces must feel coming back from a tour in the Middle East defending their country for "freedom" to hear this kind of crap being spewed from a Presidential candidate with a portion of the country eating it up. Must make their sacrifice and service feel all that more worthwhile.

 

[InCali]

It's easy to say that "OK. This is the definition I got from a textbook, so that's the be all and end all." Bottom line, if a particular group is being being lumped together for no reason other than their race and systematically attacked, THAT is racism. You can try to take a peek inside someone's brain to try and condemn or defend someone from charges of racism, but then you get to a point where it's all up for debate. Lump a group together, assume them to be homogenous, and attack them as one.....that, my friends, is racism.

 

[Schlosser85]

A Muslim database lol. It makes me wonder how a Muslim serving in the armed forces must feel coming back from a tour in the Middle East defending their country for "freedom" to hear this kind of crap being spewed from a Presidential candidate with a portion of the country eating it up. Must make their sacrifice and service feel all that more worthwhile.

There are 3,500 Muslim American servicemen currently serving in the US armed forces. So when some of these so called patriots bash "Muslims", that includes a significant number of "the troops" those same people claim to support so much.

 

[Marvolo]

As insane and wrong as that proposal is, Muslim is not a race people....

I assume most here know that.

Words take on new meaning (countless English words have changed meanings radically in the last thousand years) and are used as proxy when an adequate term isn't in the spoken language. There isn't a word in the English language that means hatred for a religious group. Bigotry is a hatred for differing opinions from one's own opinions, islamophobia is too specific and means fear of islam not hatred, and religiomisia and religiouscist arent officially accepted words. Religiophobic is a real word, but again it means fear of religion not hatred. Until the English language produces a widely accepted word meaning hatred for a religious group people are likely to use the term "racist" or some other proxy word.

If someone calls trump racist for hating an entire religious group I don't think we should be focusing on the fact that Muslim isnt a race. Of course they aren't, but the term the person used conveyed the point they were trying to communicate which is "Trump has an irrational hatred for a group of people." Whether that group is religious or a specific race isn't really the most important fact to me. I care more about the fact that Trump has an irrational hatred for an entire group of people.

 

[InCali]

I assume most here know that.

Words take on new meaning (countless English words have changed meanings radically in the last thousand years) and are used as proxy when an adequate term isn't in the spoken language. There isn't a word in the English language that means hatred for a religious group. Bigotry is a hatred for differing opinions from one's own opinions, islamophobia is too specific and means fear of islam not hatred, and religiomisia and religiouscist arent officially accepted words. Religiophobic is a real word, but again it means fear of religion not hatred. Until the English language produces a widely accepted word meaning hatred for a religious group people are likely to use the term "racist" or some other proxy word.

If someone calls trump racist for hating an entire religious group I don't think we should be focusing on the fact that Muslim isnt a race. Of course they aren't, but the term the person used conveyed the point they were trying to communicate which is "Trump has an irrational hatred for a group of people." Whether that group is religious or a specific race isn't really the most important fact to me. I care more about the fact that Trump has an irrational hatred for an entire group of people.

I'm not sure whether he has hatred or is just a hypocrite.

Bigot works for me. I think people get the gist of what I'm saying.

 

[robocop!]

Hey guys just recently joined up! im English but I have a keen interest of what's going on over the pond & all the republican candidates would stand no chance in uk politics because if you say you don't believe in evolution your a joke & not to be taken seriously, but with trump I cant understand how he's so popular is it that there's more racists in America then I thought maybe but if he does get the nomination which I think he wont because he will slip up and fall like a stone in the polls in lets say February or near that but if he does get the nomination he will lose by a landslide to Hillary or Bernie sanders because no black or Hispanic voter is going to vote for him & in 2016 that's a very big part of the vote

 

[Thundercrack85]

Hey guys just recently joined up! im English but I have a keen interest of what's going on over the pond & all the republican candidates would stand no chance in uk politics because if you say you don't believe in evolution your a joke & not to be taken seriously, but with trump I cant understand how he's so popular is it that there's more racists in America then I thought maybe but if he does get the nomination which I think he wont because he will slip up and fall like a stone in the polls in lets say February or near that but if he does get the nomination he will lose by a landslide to Hillary or Bernie sanders because no black or Hispanic voter is going to vote for him & in 2016 that's a very big part of the vote

Did someone steal the period and comma keys from your keyboard?

 

[Taarna]

Like Roach asked, which parts?

It seems like the President of France has offered more world leadership than Obama has. Obama's speech was not well received my many in the USA. Now he's changing his tune. A bit late, but much better

751 "no-go" zones exist in France today. These "no-go" zones are areas in France that the French state does not control. These areas are Muslim-dominated neighborhoods.

http://www.catholic.org/news/international/europe/story.php?id=58341