Apocalypse The "What if? Original Cast" Thread

[X-Maniac]

No it would have been more a much older guy losing his wife, although with mckellen the death would have been treated with a more older and wiser approach where he holds back the pain being incredibly cold, abit like he was in DOFP untill the end when he opens up to Charles.

Only thing his age would change really is how he copes with it, not the fact that losing his wife would basically have the same affect.

I don't think they would have given the wife/daughter death stuff to McKellen's Magneto, nor would he have been working in a steel mill at his age, lol. You're being unrealistic.

McKellen's age/portrayal would require an entirely different set-up.

I can't see McKellen's Magneto so easily being a subservient horseman either. The dynamics are all wrong. They'd need to have Apocalypse using mind control, or the fourth horseman being a mutant who could take Magneto's powers (like Zala Dane did in the comics). Or maybe Magneto's daughter Polaris being recruited as a horseman.

For global destruction, far-reaching elemental powers are the best fit, so I would say a mind-controlled Magneto, or Zala Dane, or Polaris would be needed. Or maybe Magma, causing volcanic eruptions and quakes, though that doesn't bring Magneto into the heart of the story.

If they decided against physical global destruction by mutant powers but went another route of world domination, it could have worked. It could have been done through Xavier being controlled in Cerebro for a longer period.

If Apoc WAS using mind control, Storm could be a horseman, otherwise I don't really see Halle's Storm in that role. She could be with the X-Men and go up against Polaris or Zala Dane in an aerial battle of the elementals.

 

[GuestStar2004]

I don't think they would have given the wife/daughter death stuff to McKellen's Magneto, nor would he have been working in a steel mill at his age, lol. You're being unrealistic.

McKellen's age/portrayal would require an entirely different set-up.

To a certain degree but either way you could get the same result very easy, mckellen as magneto probably wouldn't be working at a steel mil at his age or have a child to cry over but they could easily find another way to do it so his wife who he was planning to spend the rest of his years with is killed by the authorities trying to take him in for all his a lifetime of having been a villain which crushes him.

Magneto is tired and emotionless when apocalypse finds him and convinces him he can give him everything he spent years trying to achieve and magneto with nothing to lose helps apocalypse.

It's actually very easy to do, They most certainly wouldn't waste mckellen though.

 

[GuestStar2004]

Edit

 

[2kt09]

Couldn't disagree more on this tbh. Even with the continuity reset, the OT cast are still etched into public consciousness, and there is weight to their history in the roles. Logan for example looks fantastic, and a part of that appeal is the emotion attached to Jackman and Stewart (those trailers are just awesome).

The FC cast (despite some great talent) have the burden of coming second. They will never be more established, and the unconvincing time jumps make it even more apparent that these guys are not the people that audience have grown up/old with.

Again, it's about the context. With the continuity reset (as much as we cheer for this resolution), the respective character progressions have also been reset. Everyone we lost is right back at the mansion in their respective roles/relationships. So, I say the young mutants would still be the focus because their character arcs have yet to begun and the veterans would be less interesting because theirs are more or less resolved, especially if hypothetically Cyke and Jean have a steady family. For all its faults as a movie, there was so much more story to tell post-TLS.
Thus, explaining my appreciation for the period pieces where the franchise effectively does what it couldn't and the time jumps are big contributors to that.
There's an emotional attachment to Jackman and Stewart because their characters have been developed so well + the premise of those 2 nearing the end of their journeys + supposedly having outlived their peers.

Outside of small, intricate sequences (like Nightcrawler at the White House and Quicksilver's scenes), Singer is not really an action guy. He's not shown a talent for large scale combat. The future stuff in DOFP was pretty good, but still quite small in scope.

The future stuff in DOFP felt a lot more apocalyptic. This Apocalypse story was intended to be more adventurous.
Nevertheless the issue wasn't the action, imho. The problem for a lot of cbm's this year was that they overloaded the more interesting character/story stuff in that first hour (along with odd tonal shifts/out-of-place characters/scenes) and then in the next hour just kept jumping from one set-piece to the next with practically inconsequential character moments in between, whereas the better X-Men movies had carefully crafted a balance throughout the entire runtime.

Weren't the X2 writers involved with Apocalypse at some level too? Why did we end up with a Kinberg script if those guys were around?

That's the real head scratcher here. Why the X2 guys Harris and Dougherty* were only brought on for "Story by" purposes (fans were ecstatic when Singer posted the return of these two on a twitpic) and Kinberg left to his own devices coming up with gems like:

Because DOFP was that good, he's been around since TLS, and he's the one who pitched the more source accurate First Class.

 

[psylockolussus]

I just think afterDofp's ending. They should have continued with what presented in the new future. I doubt the public (except for some people here) were like hoping to see the teen version of Storm, Jean and Cyke for the follow up. And look at the hype for this compare to Dofp. Lukewarm and at the box office it was obvious!

 

[EnDz0n3]

Because DOFP was that good,

One could also say X2 was that good. Harris and Dougherty have more than proven their worth in this franchise.

he's been around since TLS,

Being around for TLS should be disqualifying no? LOL

and he's the one who pitched the more source accurate First Class.

I don't know what you mean by "more source accurate First Class."

One of the many lessons to be learned from the less than stellar reception for Apocalypse is that Kinberg should not have sole "Screenplay" credit for any movie.

I hope Fox knows this and they get other writers to work on his first draft for the next flick.

 

[Stan Lee]

There is no reason why the horseman would be mind controlled if it was with the OC because thats a wierd way of looking at it, this is what bryan wanted to explore with the cult leader stuff.

I would have loved to see Psylocke fight against Rogue! Then psylocke ended up joining in the end.

Anyway, they should have just made Apocalypse brainwashed the horsemen, therefore Kinberg wouldn't need to come up with reasons for those four turning evil. Wolverine, Angel, Psylocke and Beast as the four horsemen. There would have been tension with the X-Men fighting the horsemen since two of them are their friends. While also they could have helped Psylocke and Angel from Apocalypse and offer them to join the X-Men. While Apocalypse's awakening could have been an effect from the time travel in Dofp. Then maybe a Gambit or Deadpool tease at the end.

That's actually what happened in the original story, not a Kinberg idea. All the horsemen in the comics had their reasons. All Apocalypse did was give them a drug that lowered their inhibitions. The brainwashing thing was a cartoon idea that later made it into comics because writers were too lazy to read the original story and assume the cartoon got it right.

 

[marvelrobbins]

That's actually what happened in the original story, not a Kinberg idea. All the horsemen in the comics had their reasons. All Apocalypse did was give them a drug that lowered their inhibitions. The brainwashing thing was a cartoon idea that later made it into comics because writers were too lazy to read the original story and assume the cartoon got it right.

Thank you.if people knew comics they would know apocalypse brainwashing was invention of cartoon.in comics they joined of own free will.Having horseman in apocalypse join of own free will was honoring the original comics.

 

[2kt09]

One could also say X2 was that good. Harris and Dougherty have more than proven their worth in this franchise.

Oh for sure. Just missing one other writer though.

Being around for TLS should be disqualifying no? LOL

I'm not one of those people who think TLS has no redeeming qualities and in certain cases, the dialogue/script is among them.
On average, Kinberg is not one to trust for the script on his lonesome, that's true.
I will say if you want to really terrify the pants off of cbm fans, you should pair him up with Zak Penn.

I don't know what you mean by "more source accurate First Class."

There were 3 First Class pitches: continuing from TLS centering on "young mutants", prequel starring younger versions of the X-Men,
and finally the one we ended up with.
Along with the reception to DOFP, it seemed to reason Kinberg would be the one to apply his pitch, since they wanted to do the origin of the X-Men with Apocalypse.

 

[psylockolussus]

We still got a poor adaptation of the four horsemen.

 

[henzINNIT]

There's not a lot I would have missed from the '80s Apocalypse we got, but I do love all of the scenes with McAvoy Xavier teaching the new kids. He's just so great in the role, and sells the hell out of optimistic Xavier.

Again, it's about the context. With the continuity reset (as much as we cheer for this resolution), the respective character progressions have also been reset. Everyone we lost is right back at the mansion in their respective roles/relationships. So, I say the young mutants would still be the focus because their character arcs have yet to begun and the veterans would be less interesting because theirs are more or less resolved, especially if hypothetically Cyke and Jean have a steady family. For all its faults as a movie, there was so much more story to tell post-TLS.
Thus, explaining my appreciation for the period pieces where the franchise effectively does what it couldn't and the time jumps are big contributors to that.

Disagree again. The OT cast still have plenty of potential in front of them. Removing the baggage of X3 opened up more story opportunities than it closed. The reset left Singer free to honor as much of the previous history as he liked, meaning he could do literally anything with them. The franchise abandoned traditional character progression years ago, jumping decades at a time and picking up in different situations. It would have been fine.

The past is the real dead end. These characters always seem to serve their older versions, even now with continuity reset. Singer couldn't help but reference himself in Apocalypse, so even in the "all-new" timeline where anything could happen, many things felt familiar. The differences when they do appear are normally cosmetic. The biggest deviation from the norm is Mystique's role in the franchise, and that is probably the least popular aspect of the movie.

In essence, everything that happens after the DOFP epilogue was a step into the unknown, whereas everything following on in the past would be filling in the blanks. To me, anyway.

There's an emotional attachment to Jackman and Stewart because their characters have been developed so well + the premise of those 2 nearing the end of their journeys + supposedly having outlived their peers.

These two are without a doubt the most popular and enduring of the original cast. No question about that.

It extends beyond them though. The DOFP epilogue was a real crowd pleaser, and it banked on all of those faces. Famke's return in "The Wolverine" went down pretty well, and nerds went mental when news broke that Anna Paquin was cut from DOFP; so much so that an extended cut was made to reinstate the character.

If Apoc WAS using mind control, Storm could be a horseman, otherwise I don't really see Halle's Storm in that role.

Do the wacky mind control thing, have Storm and Logan be horsemen and give them a twisted romance. Halle and Hugh always wanted them together for some reason.

 

[2kt09]

Disagree again. The OT cast still have plenty of potential in front of them. Removing the baggage of X3 opened up more story opportunities than it closed. The reset left Singer free to honor as much of the previous history as he liked, meaning he could do literally anything with them. The franchise abandoned traditional character progression years ago, jumping decades at a time and picking up in different situations. It would have been fine.

In essence, everything that happens after the DOFP epilogue was a step into the unknown, whereas everything following on in the past would be filling in the blanks. To me, anyway.

More of a fill-in blanks guy when the timespan is this vast. I would much rather see how Storm runs the Institute, how Xavier joins back in the fray, how Wolverine decides to give up teaching, how those young mutants take over as the main X-Men, how the sentinels ravage the planet...and then resolve it with "happy days".

The past is the real dead end. These characters always seem to serve their older versions, even now with continuity reset. Singer couldn't help but reference himself in Apocalypse, so even in the "all-new" timeline where anything could happen, many things felt familiar. The differences when they do appear are normally cosmetic. The biggest deviation from the norm is Mystique's role in the franchise, and that is probably the least popular aspect of the movie.

Hoult's Beast is the only real dead end that comes to mind.
Sure, there are plenty of callbacks, but I like how they've come together, how they've done the ever-changing team compared to the OT, how they managed to add more scope to the world (part of that having to do with further diversifying backstories, motivations, and occupations), how they balanced the more out-there concepts into their grounded universe, how characters who didn't get much depth were developed better, etc.
Storm, as another example, I look more forward to than I did her OT character.

 

[henzINNIT]

I wish Apocalypse was more '80s. I missed the historical backdrop.

More of a fill-in blanks guy when the timespan is this vast. I would much rather see how Storm runs the Institute, how Xavier joins back in the fray, how Wolverine decides to give up teaching, how those young mutants take over as the main X-Men, how the sentinels ravage the planet...and then resolve it with "happy days".

The time span is vast but the blanks are pretty limited. The X-Men are formed, they probably experience varations of the OT stories along the way and by 2023 they are together, happy and teaching in the school. They'll be fine.

All stories after 2023 are fair game. You have a larger roster of characters to chose from and actual stakes moving forward. You can even still use the past in a present story using flashbacks. How about a reverse of DOFP where the future story is supplimented by scenes in the past?

Hoult's Beast is the only real dead end that comes to mind.
Sure, there are plenty of callbacks, but I like how they've come together, how they've done the ever-changing team compared to the OT, how they managed to add more scope to the world (part of that having to do with further diversifying backstories, motivations, and occupations), how they balanced the more out-there concepts into their grounded universe, how characters who didn't get much depth were developed better, etc.
Storm, as another example, I look more forward to than I did her OT character.

They're pretty much all dead ends to me. Each character progresses toward their older counterpart. They may deviate on the way, but always with an eventuality in mind. I'm bored of watching Beast before he is Beast, or the X-Men being formed when we could be watching the X-Men actually doing stuff.

I prefer Shipp's Storm to Berry's, but neither have had very good material at this point.

 

[marvelrobbins]

I wish Apocalypse was more '80s. I missed the historical backdrop.



The time span is vast but the blanks are pretty limited. The X-Men are formed, they probably experience varations of the OT stories along the way and by 2023 they are together, happy and teaching in the school. They'll be fine.

All stories after 2023 are fair game. You have a larger roster of characters to chose from and actual stakes moving forward. You can even still use the past in a present story using flashbacks. How about a reverse of DOFP where the future story is supplimented by scenes in the past?



They're pretty much all dead ends to me. Each character progresses toward their older counterpart. They may deviate on the way, but always with an eventuality in mind. I'm bored of watching Beast before he is Beast, or the X-Men being formed when we could be watching the X-Men actually doing stuff.

I prefer Shipp's Storm to Berry's, but neither have had very good material at this point.

now my favorate film X2 as it is on film as well as first X-men can't exsist as we saw.

now a film with 75% set in time with original cast and 25% In past would have been worth doing.

just like the abrams star trek has been called alternate timeline but original still exsits hench is how they will be doing discovery assuming it ever gets on the air with all the delays they wanted to free first class cast from having to abide by original trilogy and say to fans of original cast versions played by original cast still exsists.all ending says is deaths of last stand now didn't happen and they are teaching at school similar to original trilogy but you have no idea what world is like outside mansion.In comics even with things terrable for mutants is mansion you have X-men playing softball and acting normal or a smuch normal as they can get.

 

[2kt09]

I wish Apocalypse was more '80s. I missed the historical backdrop.

Same here.

The time span is vast but the blanks are pretty limited. The X-Men are formed, they probably experience varations of the OT stories along the way and by 2023 they are together, happy and teaching in the school. They'll be fine.

The premise of "they are together, happy and teaching the school", at their respective ages, still feels like a book end to a chapter
and less thrilling than between where TLS left off and where that ended up.

They're pretty much all dead ends to me. Each character progresses toward their older counterpart. They may deviate on the way, but always with an eventuality in mind. I'm bored of watching Beast before he is Beast, or the X-Men being formed when we could be watching the X-Men actually doing stuff.

The X-Men of the past have their immediate future unwritten with a ton of potential/development ahead of them.
Their older counterparts in 2023 have most of their adventures long behind them.
This is especially the case after separating the two continuities without affecting my enjoyment of how far both have come.

I prefer Shipp's Storm to Berry's, but neither have had very good material at this point.

Berry's basically run her course.
Shipp's Storm has the troubled & foreign backstory, the confidence booster via Apocalypse, and
if she can really be part of the team or just fade into convenient power-user.

 

[henzINNIT]

The premise of "they are together, happy and teaching the school", at their respective ages, still feels like a book end to a chapter
and less thrilling than between where TLS left off and where that ended up.

True that there were some great stories between TLS and DOFP. There is a feeling that we missed a couple of movies. Obviously that ship has sailed though. The DOFP epilogue is a nice bookend, but it didn't have to be, and in fact will no longer be after Logan. Now that feels even more like a bookend.

The X-Men of the past have their immediate future unwritten with a ton of potential/development ahead of them.
Their older counterparts in 2023 have most of their adventures long behind them.
This is especially the case after separating the two continuities without affecting my enjoyment of how far both have come.

I guess longevity isnt what I'm concerned about. I don't think an OT Apocalypse would be the start of a new trilogy or anything, more a final chapter and an excuse to pay off under-served characters and pass the torch. A new dynamic would be established to be spin-off friendly in the process (New Mutants or something). I'm not concerned about box office performance generally, but a large cast reunion, apocalyptic scale movie seems like the logical follow up to DOFP.

The Apocalypse we got didn't feel like an event film. I'd argue that the setting is a big part of this, because the years of ahead of these characters as you mentioned make it abundantly clear that this is just a story near the start of these kids' lives. That undermines Apocalypse completely.

We're probably at "agree to disagree" territory here. I'm not an OT-or-nothing fanboy, and I am happy to see more of the young guys (though I do wish they would age a little). I just wish there was space for both, and think Apocalypse was used in the wrong time.

Berry's basically run her course.
Shipp's Storm has the troubled & foreign backstory, the confidence booster via Apocalypse, and
if she can really be part of the team or just fade into convenient power-user.

I have tremendous fear that Storm is going to be wasted again. Apocalypse already gave her very little to do when there was a ton of material to mine. Cyclops destroying his school bathroom is fun, but Storm's backstory is incredible and horribly glossed over. I wonder if upcoming films will find time to revisit her origins, though I'll settle for anything at this point.

The rumoured role in New Mutants is promising though. Hopeful on that.

 

[psyonic]

Reading this thread just makes me wonder why they didn't use Storm to destroy the world. Missed opportunity to show her powers on a global scale.

 

[X-Maniac]

Reading this thread just makes me wonder why they didn't use Storm to destroy the world. Missed opportunity to show her powers on a global scale.

Perhaps because it would be difficult to have her as an X-Men member after that, whereas Magneto always has a dark and villainous side.

But also possibly because she isn't seen as that significant. She fulfils diversity requirements and that's that.

Notice how all the ethnic diversity characters (Storm, Psylocke, Jubilee) were shafted in some way? It's rather unsettling.

 

[henzINNIT]

But also possibly because she isn't seen as that significant. She fulfils diversity requirements and that's that.

It is totally this I believe, sadly.

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

Definitely don't want any of the original cast back, but they do need to do something about Magneto and Xavier, who by the time of XA are in their 50s but one can still pass for 29.
I think some X-men like Scott and Storm need solo movies to explain their stories because they always get shafted in group films. No in don't want any MCU bs but I just think some of the X-men have interesting back stories even before they end up at the school.

 

[psylockolussus]

Magneto and Xavier again,sheez.

 

[CyclopsSummers]

Why setting OT cast in 2023 ?? why so far

We can set in 2016/2017. Most of the x-men members will be about 49 yo

However Jackman, Cudmore, Alan Cumming wont reprise their role

 

[henzINNIT]

Why setting OT cast in 2023 ?? why so far

We can set in 2016/2017. Most of the x-men members will be about 49 yo

However Jackman, Cudmore, Alan Cumming wont reprise their role

Well I guess you wouldn't have to, but the most obvious way to follow DOFP would be to, well you know, follow DOFP.

 

[CyclopsSummers]

Not necessary.

All movies and spin-off actually set between 1973-2023. 50 years of x-men story Xavier must relate to Logan. We're glad to know what happens