The Wrestling Thread has much larger nipples

[Mani-Man]

Looked to me like Taker got Shane up for the chokeslam and then just dropped him. Wasn't much of a slam!

More like a Chokedrop or so, i noticed it right away...was kind of funny.

So Seth Rollins embarrassed himself on twitter getting in an argument with Will Ospreay. Trying to claim that the WWE has the best wrestling in the world (with the G1 about to start) and that Seth is the best in the world...

He isn't even the best in the WWE. He might not be top 10 in the WWE. He is nowhere on the Danielson, Johnny Wrestling, Adam Cole, Pete Dunne, Walter, Samoa Joe level. He isn't on the Ricochet, Owens, Zayn level. But forget that. The idea that Seth is producing the world that guys like Okada, Ospreay, Ibushi, Niato, Miyahara, or Omega have over the last 18 months... that's just insane. It is almost like Rollins is insecure about WWE's place in the wrestling world right now. Which is really stupid.

I mean i get it, the wrestling itself in the wwe isnt that bad.
Okay most of the time its just going through the motion, but if you have talented guys then even that works.
But his argumentation is weak.
First its the amount of matches, then its the money he makes.
And that shortly after people left and right rip apart his main event ppv match for being awful.

One thing i noticed in this is that many wwe workers and fans try to argue by using Quantity.
Its the length of the matches, how many people were in the arena, how much money has been made...its always the quantity and not the quality.
Same with defending the wwe, the excuses "they work hard, they are on the road the whole year, they have this amount of shows over the year" come up so very often.
And its a damn weak one because 100 bad matches dont make it good.

 

[Rodimus]

So Seth Rollins embarrassed himself on twitter getting in an argument with Will Ospreay. Trying to claim that the WWE has the best wrestling in the world (with the G1 about to start) and that Seth is the best in the world...

He isn't even the best in the WWE. He might not be top 10 in the WWE. He is nowhere on the Danielson, Johnny Wrestling, Adam Cole, Pete Dunne, Walter, Samoa Joe level. He isn't on the Ricochet, Owens, Zayn level. But forget that. The idea that Seth is producing the world that guys like Okada, Ospreay, Ibushi, Niato, Miyahara, or Omega have over the last 18 months... that's just insane. It is almost like Rollins is insecure about WWE's place in the wrestling world right now. Which is really stupid.

When I was watching I loved Seth, easily one of my favourites

 

[DarthSkywalker]

When I was watching I loved Seth, easily one of my favourites

Seth as a heel was great. He is not nearly as good babyface. Not the way he is booked and not in how he puts it intro practice in the ring. But even at his best, he wasn't the best in the world and even at his peak, probably hard to call him a top 10 guy. Because during his peak was peak NJPW and NXT really started getting going. And right now, he isn't even close to that.

By the way, I say this as someone who doesn't even think Ospreay is the best. He is having a great year, though I do think he is a tiny bit overrated (he can still be spotty as hell), but his BotSJ performance had more great performances then Rollins has had all decade.

 

[DOBSON10]

So Seth Rollins embarrassed himself on twitter getting in an argument with Will Ospreay. Trying to claim that the WWE has the best wrestling in the world (with the G1 about to start) and that Seth is the best in the world...

He isn't even the best in the WWE. He might not be top 10 in the WWE. He is nowhere on the Danielson, Johnny Wrestling, Adam Cole, Pete Dunne, Walter, Samoa Joe level. He isn't on the Ricochet, Owens, Zayn level. But forget that. The idea that Seth is producing the world that guys like Okada, Ospreay, Ibushi, Niato, Miyahara, or Omega have over the last 18 months... that's just insane. It is almost like Rollins is insecure about WWE's place in the wrestling world right now. Which is really stupid.

I wish there was a dislike button... Seth not better than Cole, Joe, Dunne, Walter or Owens? Don't get me wrong, Seth's matches have become alittle stale because WWE doesn't let their talent go all out, they book the matches to all be similar and don't give the wrestlers much free roam, plus his competition in PPV's hasn't been conducive to great matches... but some of the guys you mentioned just aren't anything special either.

I'll never understand the hype around Adam Cole, the guy gets outshined in pretty much every match he's in by his opponents and his teammates. Joe's good on the mic but his in ring matches are even more stale than Seth's and his matches were boring before they became repetitive. Owens and Zayn are both better on the mic than Seth, I won't argue that and I could make a case that Zayn is as good as Seth in ring, but the only thing special about Owens is that he can do a couple things guys his size shouldn't be able to do, but none of it is things that haven't been done before and he's really not that great.

Bryan's matches have become stale too, he does his same routine over and over. And the yes kicks are blatantly stupid, why doesn't his opponent just move out of the way? It's illogical. But I won't argue anyone that says he's better than Seth, though I don't find his matches as fun as Seth's either. I'm not a Gargano guy, he has some interesting moves, I won't argue that one even though I still don't agree, and I find him incredibly dull on the mic even though he has much better storylines and dialogue to work with than the main roster wrestlers.

I won't comment on the non-WWE guys, because I don't find their super choreographed high spot fests all that exciting, and none of them are even slightly interesting outside the ring or on the mic. It's one of the main reason's I won't be watching AEW, the only interesting character they have is Ambrose/Moxley, the rest of that roster is boring AF.

 

[DOBSON10]

Oops, forgot what I came in here to say... This Shane McMahon thing has to stop... like yesterday... he sucks...

 

[JabarR]

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I wish there was a dislike button... Seth not better than Cole, Joe, Dunne, Walter or Owens? Don't get me wrong, Seth's matches have become alittle stale because WWE doesn't let their talent go all out, they book the matches to all be similar and don't give the wrestlers much free roam, plus his competition in PPV's hasn't been conducive to great matches... but some of the guys you mentioned just aren't anything special either.

Seth matches aren't a little stale. They aren't good. You don't need a great opponent to put on quality matches when you are that good. Okada got a legit match out of Bad Luck Fale. He makes Corbin look like prime Kurt Angle.

Working a safer style is not a problem for guys like Bryan, Sami, Owens, Joe, etc.

I'll never understand the hype around Adam Cole, the guy gets outshined in pretty much every match he's in by his opponents and his teammates. Joe's good on the mic but his in ring matches are even more stale than Seth's and his matches were boring before they became repetitive. Owens and Zayn are both better on the mic than Seth, I won't argue that and I could make a case that Zayn is as good as Seth in ring, but the only thing special about Owens is that he can do a couple things guys his size shouldn't be able to do, but none of it is things that haven't been done before and he's really not that great.

Adam Cole, Bay-Bay, just had two all time great matches. Arguably was a part of the best match in WWE history just this past April. Every moment he is out there, the crowd is hot. He is great at every aspect of pro wrestling, and while I don't hold him as a top 5 guy, he is most certainly a top 10 guy, putting out work that Rollins can't compete with. Not even when he was Tyler Black.

Joe has slowed down physically, but he is still a monster, who somehow even with awful booking, makes almost any situation legit. Again just this past weekend he fill got some time to work in the ring, and he and Ricochet put on a really good match. Better then anything Rollins is doing.

Zayn and Owens have always been ridiculous on the mic, and have the resume of matches to back up their quality. Again, in a throw away tag match this past weekend, out shinned Rollins in the main event, with his special stipulation.

Bryan's matches have become stale too, he does his same routine over and over. And the yes kicks are blatantly stupid, why doesn't his opponent just move out of the way? It's illogical. But I won't argue anyone that says he's better than Seth, though I don't find his matches as fun as Seth's either. I'm not a Gargano guy, he has some interesting moves, I won't argue that one even though I still don't agree, and I find him incredibly dull on the mic even though he has much better storylines and dialogue to work with than the main roster wrestlers.

Bryan Danielson had a great match with Heavy Machinery on the same card as Seth Rollins, who got like 20 mins, stuck the joint out.

Gargano has been in like 10 of the best 25 matches in WWE history over the last 5 years.

I won't comment on the non-WWE guys, because I don't find their super choreographed high spot fests all that exciting, and none of them are even slightly interesting outside the ring or on the mic. It's one of the main reason's I won't be watching AEW, the only interesting character they have is Ambrose/Moxley, the rest of that roster is boring AF.

Only one guy I named is in AEW, Omega. The rest are in NJPW but one. That other guy is the Triple Crown champion in AJPW. Which you clearly don't watch. Zack Sabre Jr. cut a promo that puts Rollins work over the last 3 years to shame just last night. Also had a better match then anything Rollins has ever had in the WWE.

There is nothing better then hearing someone say guys like Okada, Ibushi or Naito (three of the greatest storytellers in pro wrestling history) are super choreographed, when Rollins has a moveset that includes his stomp his superplex no sell into falcon arrow.

Just because you don't watch a lot of wrestling, doesn't mean it isn't happening. And you'd be hard pressed to see anyone who watches WWE main roster, NXT, NJPW and AEW to agrees with you. Because it is like night and day in comparison. Okada might be the best wrestler of all time, and he is only 31 after a 7 year run that no one can compare to.

You are entitled to your opinion. But your opinion clearly comes with very little knowledge of the names I listed.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

It's Jinder. Nobody get excited.

 

[DOBSON10]

Seth matches aren't a little stale. They aren't good. You don't need a great opponent to put on quality matches when you are that good. Okada got a legit match out of Bad Luck Fale. He makes Corbin look like prime Kurt Angle.

Working a safer style is not a problem for guys like Bryan, Sami, Owens, Joe, etc.


Adam Cole, Bay-Bay, just had two all time great matches. Arguably was a part of the best match in WWE history just this past April. Every moment he is out there, the crowd is hot. He is great at every aspect of pro wrestling, and while I don't hold him as a top 5 guy, he is most certainly a top 10 guy, putting out work that Rollins can't compete with. Not even when he was Tyler Black.

Joe has slowed down physically, but he is still a monster, who somehow even with awful booking, makes almost any situation legit. Again just this past weekend he fill got some time to work in the ring, and he and Ricochet put on a really good match. Better then anything Rollins is doing.

Zayn and Owens have always been ridiculous on the mic, and have the resume of matches to back up their quality. Again, in a throw away tag match this past weekend, out shinned Rollins in the main event, with his special stipulation.


Bryan Danielson had a great match with Heavy Machinery on the same card as Seth Rollins, who got like 20 mins, stuck the joint out.

Gargano has been in like 10 of the best 25 matches in WWE history over the last 5 years.


Only one guy I named is in AEW, Omega. The rest are in NJPW but one. That other guy is the Triple Crown champion in AJPW. Which you clearly don't watch. Zack Sabre Jr. cut a promo that puts Rollins work over the last 3 years to shame just last night. Also had a better match then anything Rollins has ever had in the WWE.

There is nothing better then hearing someone say guys like Okada, Ibushi or Niato (three of the greatest storytellers in pro wrestling history) are super choreographed, when Rollins has a moveset that includes his stomp his superplex no sell into falcon arrow.

Just because you don't watch a lot of wrestling, doesn't mean it isn't happening. And you'd be hard pressed to see anyone who watches WWE main roster, NXT, NJPW and AEW to agrees with you. Because it is like night and day in comparison. Okada might be the best wrestler of all time, and he is only 31 after a 7 year run that no one can compare to.

I don't watch New Japan or other indies a ton, but I do watch them, I just don't find it all that impressive. Don't get me wrong, I understand that WWE, particularly the Main Roster, is not on the same level.... technically speaking, but I find the indies matches to be overly choreographed and I find the character work, dull, to say the least. I can't get into it, because it's outwardly fake looking wrestling. All wrestling has that element of fakeness, but the indie stuff just looks like a dance, not a match. Again, Rollins has restrictions placed on him that the indie guys don't have. He's capable of competing with anyone you named.

And yes, if you want to compare everyone's Stomping Grounds performances to Seth's, I'm not going to argue. Because he was put in a stupid match, with a dumb gimmick, against a crap opponent. That's not on Seth, that's on Vince. When's the last time Seth got to have a full on 30 minute wrestling match against a good opponent with no WWE restrictions or sideshow drama? Give Seth and AJ an Iron Man match, with some freedom and watch what would happen.

Just different preferences, that's all. I wouldn't call any of those guys you mentioned one of the greatest wrestlers ever and I wouldn't call any of their matches All-Time great. I watched the Omega/Jericho match, I watched the Okada/Omega matches, I just don't see the same thing everyone sees. A ton of super choreographed high spots, finisher after finisher, after finisher getting kicked out of, no real heat between the wrestlers, it doesn't do anything for me. It's this new idea that if you pack a ton of moves into a match, it means it's great, I just don't agree. They look like highlight exhibition showcases more than rivalries with tension. Just not my thing.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I don't watch New Japan or other indies a ton, but I do watch them, I just don't find it all that impressive. Don't get me wrong, I understand that WWE, particularly the Main Roster, is not on the same level.... technically speaking, but I find the indies matches to be overly choreographed and I find the character work, dull, to say the least. I can't get into it, because it's outwardly fake looking wrestling. All wrestling has that element of fakeness, but the indie stuff just looks like a dance, not a match. Again, Rollins has restrictions placed on him that the indie guys don't have. He's capable of competing with anyone you named.

First off, NJPW isn't an indy. Second I have a hard time believing you watch them, when you keep talking about how choreographed the matches are. One of the great hallmark of current NJPW is how heavily influenced it is by the King's Road style of the mid-90s. It's stiff, it is logical, and looks far more "real" then anything currently in the WWE.

According to you this looks more real:



Then this:



Ospreay might have some spotness to him, but guys like Okada, Naito, Ibushi, Sanada and others aren't like that at all.They don't have the overt setup you see with Ospreay, or the vast majority of the WWE. Their match structure and character work has more in common with the likes of Flair, Steamboat, Savage, Hart and HBK then anything else.

When it comes to character work. Naito's makes the treatment of a title belt interesting. Okada got people to react to him wearing trunks again. Jay White became the most hated man in wrestling, and he didn't even need to take up hours of WWE television to do it.

And yes, if you want to compare everyone's Stomping Grounds performances to Seth's, I'm not going to argue. Because he was put in a stupid match, with a dumb gimmick, against a crap opponent. That's not on Seth, that's on Vince. When's the last time Seth got to have a full on 30 minute wrestling match against a good opponent with no WWE restrictions or sideshow drama? Give Seth and AJ an Iron Man match, with some freedom and watch what would happen.

You know what my favorite thing about this is? Using this logic, the problem is the WWE style, and yet you are somehow arguing it is better then the NJPW style.

Just different preferences, that's all. I wouldn't call any of those guys you mentioned one of the greatest wrestlers ever and I wouldn't call any of their matches All-Time great. I watched the Omega/Jericho match, I watched the Okada/Omega matches, I just don't see the same thing everyone sees. A ton of super choreographed high spots, finisher after finisher, after finisher getting kicked out of, no real heat between the wrestlers, it doesn't do anything for me. It's this new idea that if you pack a ton of moves into a match, it means it's great, I just don't agree. They look like highlight exhibition showcases more than rivalries with tension. Just not my thing.

I don't like Jericho's run of matches in NJPW. I find them rather boring as they basically boil down to the others guys taking Jericho's Funk offense.

Everything you are describing about those matches are fundamentally wrong. Every single time Omega hit the One Winged Angel on Okada, he didn't kick out of it. He might of got his foot on the rope once. Okada rarely hits his Rain Maker in a match. The very nature of it leads to a lot of teasing. When he hits it earlier in a long match, he rarely goes for the pin. The best quality of Okada's two great feuds (Omega and Tanahashi), are how the matches build on each other. The idea that they are spotfest is literally wrong. Because the matches build on each other, showing what each man has learned about the other over the hours they have spent in the ring together.

No real heat between wrestlers... Yeah, you haven't seen Naito vs. Ibushi at all.

 

[Dr. Evil]

So AEW may have weekly TV on the same day as NXT which makes sense since I don't see AEW on Tuesdays as that is when the NBA is on TNT.

 

[DOBSON10]

First off, NJPW isn't an indy. Second I have a hard time believing you watch them, when you keep talking about how choreographed the matches are. One of the great hallmark of current NJPW is how heavily influenced it is by the King's Road style of the mid-90s. It's stiff, it is logical, and looks far more "real" then anything currently in the WWE.

According to you this looks more real:



Then this:

You're really going to compare Becky and Lacey to two Top notch wrestlers? Just because I don't agree that they're some of the greatest wrestlers ever, doesn't mean I don't acknowledge that they're some of the better wrestlers in the world... right now. Becky isn't exactly a... great... wrestler... She's one of the better female wrestlers but she is very flawed (And she's downright horrible at making calls in the ring discreetly, she openly yells spots out constantly). And Lacey, who does have alot of talent... Is embarrassingly green, and shouldn't be where she is right now, she really should be in NXT working her way up still to be frank.

And I won't deny that there is a good portion of moves in non-WWE wrestling that look more real, certain ones look down right scary sometimes (WWE has more restrictions, is more cautious, some of those moves are even banned in WWE). But at the end of the day, alot of stuff that happens in those matches looks too well timed, too conveniently placed and overly rehearsed, like a dance. WWE has this problem too, so don't think I'm leaving them out. Especially during multi-man matches, like Triple Threats and Fatal 4-Ways, where guys mysteriously fall asleep outside the ring for 20 minutes at a time, only to pop up just in the nick of time to stop a pinfall.

Ospreay might have some spotness to him, but guys like Okada, Naito, Ibushi, Sanada and others aren't like that at all.They don't have the overt setup you see with Ospreay, or the vast majority of the WWE. Their match structure and character work has more in common with the likes of Flair, Steamboat, Savage, Hart and HBK then anything else.

When it comes to character work. Naito's makes the treatment of a title belt interesting. Okada got people to react to him wearing trunks again. Jay White became the most hated man in wrestling, and he didn't even need to take up hours of WWE television to do it.


You know what my favorite thing about this is? Using this logic, the problem is the WWE style, and yet you are somehow arguing it is better then the NJPW style.


I don't like Jericho's run of matches in NJPW. I find them rather boring as they basically boil down to the others guys taking Jericho's Funk offense.

Everything you are describing about those matches are fundamentally wrong. Every single time Omega hit the One Winged Angel on Okada, he didn't kick out of it. He might of got his foot on the rope once. Okada rarely hits his Rain Maker in a match. The very nature of it leads to a lot of teasing. When he hits it earlier in a long match, he rarely goes for the pin. The best quality of Okada's two great feuds (Omega and Tanahashi), are how the matches build on each other. The idea that they are spotfest is literally wrong. Because the matches build on each other, showing what each man has learned about the other over the hours they have spent in the ring together.

No real heat between wrestlers... Yeah, you haven't seen Naito vs. Ibushi at all.

As for all of this, again, I'm not denying that I don't watch alot of it. I do watch it, because I hear about how it's supposed to be so great, but I don't definitely don't watch it religiously by any means. I saw all the Okada/Omega matches, they absolutely are spotfests and filled with false finishers. You want to argue that they're not THEIR finishing moves, fine, but they're filled with moves that have been considered finishers of other wrestlers or "finishing maneuvers".

And when I talk about the style of wrestling, I don't necessarily mean WWE Vs. New Japan right now, I won't argue that New Japan focuses more on wrestling than WWE. WWE has a hilarious amount of flaws and wrestling quality (mostly due to management, not lack of talent on the roster) is one of those problems. But when people go on and on about some of these guys being the greatest wrestlers ever, I just can't agree because I remember WWE at it's peak and how great the rivalries, stories and matches were and still could be if done well. Where as today's opinion of great, just seems to be whoever has fast paced match with as many flashy moves as possible means it's a 5 Star Match. There has to be more to it than that for me.

 

[Dr. Evil]

Honestly, I think the comparison should be Raw and Smackdown vs. NXT. All three are WWE (people tend to forget that NXT is WWE because of how good it is). You watch NXT and then watch main roster, it's like night and day. NXT Takeovers are always fantastic. Even the worst match on an NXT Takeover would be the best match on a main roster PPV. At Takeover 25, the worst match of the card was the Women's Title match and yet that wasn't a terrible match and would be match of the night on main roster. In NXT, storylines and feuds make sense. Is NXT perfect? Far from it. NXT has it's flaws, but the positives outweigh the negatives by a lot. Sometimes, weekly NXT TV is as blah as main roster, but the reason NXT gets a pass is because of Takeovers. I only watch NXT these days, followed by NXT UK, sometimes 205 Live if I hear that one of the matches had buzz.

NXT UK is still new and has good wrestling, but it's lacking the awesome characters that NXT has. NXT has the Velveteen Dream, who when he first started I saw nothing in him but when he feuded with Aleister Black over the fact that Black refused to say his name, I became a fan. Roderick Strong is a great wrestler, but was a bland as hell babyface. He joined the Undisputed Era and had some personality. Other than Moustache Mountain, Pete Dunne and Toni Storm, the rest of NXT UK hasn't captivated me like most NXT talent have.

It's NXT that gets the 5 star matches, hell Cole vs. Gargano from the last Takeover got 5.5. If anything, NXT should be the one you compare Raw and Smackdown to because it's all WWE, but NXT does it better. It's hard to compare WWE with AEW or New Japan because of the different styles. NXT is easier because it's part of the WWE umbrella, but the good part of it.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Honestly, I think the comparison should be Raw and Smackdown vs. NXT. All three are WWE (people tend to forget that NXT is WWE because of how good it is). You watch NXT and then watch main roster, it's like night and day. NXT Takeovers are always fantastic. Even the worst match on an NXT Takeover would be the best match on a main roster PPV. At Takeover 25, the worst match of the card was the Women's Title match and yet that wasn't a terrible match and would be match of the night on main roster. In NXT, storylines and feuds make sense. Is NXT perfect? Far from it. NXT has it's flaws, but the positives outweigh the negatives by a lot. Sometimes, weekly NXT TV is as blah as main roster, but the reason NXT gets a pass is because of Takeovers. I only watch NXT these days, followed by NXT UK, sometimes 205 Live if I hear that one of the matches had buzz.

NXT UK is still new and has good wrestling, but it's lacking the awesome characters that NXT has. NXT has the Velveteen Dream, who when he first started I saw nothing in him but when he feuded with Aleister Black over the fact that Black refused to say his name, I became a fan. Roderick Strong is a great wrestler, but was a bland as hell babyface. He joined the Undisputed Era and had some personality. Other than Moustache Mountain, Pete Dunne and Toni Storm, the rest of NXT UK hasn't captivated me like most NXT talent have.

It's NXT that gets the 5 star matches, hell Cole vs. Gargano from the last Takeover got 5.5. If anything, NXT should be the one you compare Raw and Smackdown to because it's all WWE, but NXT does it better. It's hard to compare WWE with AEW or New Japan because of the different styles. NXT is easier because it's part of the WWE umbrella, but the good part of it.

The WWE don't even consider it the same thing. When they said Ricochet won his first WWE title the other day, I cracked up. As the North American Title is already far more legit then any main roster strap.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

You're really going to compare Becky and Lacey to two Top notch wrestlers? Just because I don't agree that they're some of the greatest wrestlers ever, doesn't mean I don't acknowledge that they're some of the better wrestlers in the world... right now. Becky isn't exactly a... great... wrestler... She's one of the better female wrestlers but she is very flawed (And she's downright horrible at making calls in the ring discreetly, she openly yells spots out constantly). And Lacey, who does have alot of talent... Is embarrassingly green, and shouldn't be where she is right now, she really should be in NXT working her way up still to be frank.

And I won't deny that there is a good portion of moves in non-WWE wrestling that look more real, certain ones look down right scary sometimes (WWE has more restrictions, is more cautious, some of those moves are even banned in WWE). But at the end of the day, alot of stuff that happens in those matches looks too well timed, too conveniently placed and overly rehearsed, like a dance. WWE has this problem too, so don't think I'm leaving them out. Especially during multi-man matches, like Triple Threats and Fatal 4-Ways, where guys mysteriously fall asleep outside the ring for 20 minutes at a time, only to pop up just in the nick of time to stop a pinfall.

Okay, how about this brilliant no sell job?



My favorite part is when he sells the leg against Sheamus, but not the superplex.

Also his finisher requires nearly every time for his opponent to get in position, overtly.



What you seem to be describing are the juniors, which I agree are very "spot" based. Very good spots, but very spotty. Which is why while I love Ospreay, I feel like he needs to keep moving away from stuff like the Oscutter. But that does not apply to guys like Okada or the vast majority of the heavyweights. That matches are far more heavy impact and story based. Sequences where reversals happen are completely based around past matches, and knowledge of opponents and look no faker then anything else in pro wrestling.

As for all of this, again, I'm not denying that I don't watch alot of it. I do watch it, because I hear about how it's supposed to be so great, but I don't definitely don't watch it religiously by any means. I saw all the Okada/Omega matches, they absolutely are spotfests and filled with false finishers. You want to argue that they're not THEIR finishing moves, fine, but they're filled with moves that have been considered finishers of other wrestlers or "finishing maneuvers".

And when I talk about the style of wrestling, I don't necessarily mean WWE Vs. New Japan right now, I won't argue that New Japan focuses more on wrestling than WWE. WWE has a hilarious amount of flaws and wrestling quality (mostly due to management, not lack of talent on the roster) is one of those problems. But when people go on and on about some of these guys being the greatest wrestlers ever, I just can't agree because I remember WWE at it's peak and how great the rivalries, stories and matches were and still could be if done well. Where as today's opinion of great, just seems to be whoever has fast paced match with as many flashy moves as possible means it's a 5 Star Match. There has to be more to it than that for me.

First, what exactly is wrong with kicking out of finishing moves? Two you do realize that outside of basic stuff like scoop slams, all moves in wrestling have been considered finishing moves right? DDTs, falcon arrows, moonsaults, chokeslams, every running strike, the sleeper, cross armbreakers, the calf crusher, etc. I could go on all day. In the WWE people have punches to the face as finishers, and yet people punch each other in the face like every single match. Everyone super kicks.

I agree the WWE roster has a lot of talent. It has the most talent in the world when you consider NXT. But they don't use it, and I wouldn't put Rollins in the top 10 in the WWE right now. Maybe not even top 15.

One of the great things about a place like NJPW is you see styles from all over the world brought together, to make some of the most unique matches you will see. WWE has talent like that, but they water it all down. And while a dude like Bryan or AJ can make it work, that is not the same for the majority of the roster. You can't just take the heart of a wrestler, and expect them to shine.

I am curious what you think the peak era of the WWE/F was. My favorite periods in the WWE were Smackdown's Super Six era, 2000 through June 2001, and 1997, where I rather enjoyed everything Austin and Bret were doing. But even during those periods, the WWE had awful stuff going on all over the card.

 

[Rodimus]

Seth as a heel was great. He is not nearly as good babyface. Not the way he is booked and not in how he puts it intro practice in the ring. But even at his best, he wasn't the best in the world and even at his peak, probably hard to call him a top 10 guy. Because during his peak was peak NJPW and NXT really started getting going. And right now, he isn't even close to that.

By the way, I say this as someone who doesn't even think Ospreay is the best. He is having a great year, though I do think he is a tiny bit overrated (he can still be spotty as hell), but his BotSJ performance had more great performances then Rollins has had all decade.

I can see you have really taken this ball and ran with it above, so I'll just keep this brief.

Seth, as a face, was probably the thing I enjoyed most about WWE until I stopped watching. I'm sure I'm not alone.

It's cool that you like others more as well

 

[ironman_rick]

That was a "kevin nash" like response from rollins. Osperay is the best wrestler in 2019 so far. I don't know how much longer Osperay can last by putting his body through his matches this year.

As for Rollins, his drawing power is worse than CM punk. The ratings are down after he became champion (to be fair, it has been on a downward spiral for a while). Even worse, the ticket sales for recent PPVs and raw has been ....dismal.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

That was a "kevin nash" like response from rollins. Osperay is the best wrestler in 2019 so far. I don't know how much longer Osperay can last by putting his body through his matches this year.

As for Rollins, his drawing power is worse than CM punk. The ratings are down after he became champion (to be fair, it has been on a downward spiral for a while). Even worse, the ticket sales for recent PPVs and raw has been ....dismal.

No one showed up for the PPV or Raw. It's really bad. No one wanted to see that main event. It was getting booed from the start. They were chanting for everything but the match.

As to Ospreay... well he now has the G1. His body better last.

Also him and Shingo doing both the BotSJ and the G1? Also didn't Ospreay go deep into the New Japan Cup? That is qujite the work load.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I can see you have really taken this ball and ran with it above, so I'll just keep this brief.

Seth, as a face, was probably the thing I enjoyed most about WWE until I stopped watching. I'm sure I'm not alone.

It's cool that you like others more as well

Can I ask when you stopped watching? Also if you thought Seth was doing really well, why did you stop?

 

[Mani-Man]

What are we arguing exactly at this point? I have lost track of what point Rollins wanted to make.
Either way he lost the discussion the moment he brought in how much money he makes or how many matches he does.
Because if that is your standpoint then you have lost.
Having 100 decent matches isnt better than 50 fantastic, quantity isnt quality.
And i feel like many wwe fans and workers lose track of that.
A guy who makes a few millions does mainly because the wwe has the marketing strength behind him and not the quality neccessary.
NJPW etc sells itself as wrestling company while the wwe is entertainment with merchandise etc.
NJPW sells athletes, wrestlers...sells a sport.
The WWE sells enterainment, showman like in a circus or so.

Sorry if i lose the track here but since Rollins started there is so much going on and so many people talk about so much stuff, i lose a bit of the focus because people make interesting points left and right.

 

[DOBSON10]

Okay, how about this brilliant no sell job?



My favorite part is when he sells the leg against Sheamus, but not the superplex.

Also his finisher requires nearly every time for his opponent to get in position, overtly.

Well, let's pretend for a second that wrestling was real and that all the moves were real, Seth has to no sell the superplex, or he'd rarely be able to pull off the Falcon Arrow spot right after. He knows it's coming, becuz it's his move, so he knows brace himself for that fall, plus he has to fight off the pain of the superplex so he can have the double impact of the following move. I'm not even necessarily saying you're wrong, but that's how that move is supposed to be interpreted, because it's effectiveness is based on it being one solid motion, a combo of moves, for the double impact.

As for the stomp, once again I agree, but I also blame that on WWE, who actually banned the move for a time becuz of concussion protocol. The move needs a better set up, to make it look less contrived, but they're scared of the move to the point that they A. Won't let him do it without the opponent being in full position, ready for it to happen and B. He's not allowed to make it look as violent as it used to look, his current stomp is weaker than it used to be.

First, what exactly is wrong with kicking out of finishing moves?

Normally, nothing. Until both guys have kicked out (or just never even covered) 15 finishers in one match and keep going, like the Okada/Omega matches, where that's exactly what happened.

Two you do realize that outside of basic stuff like scoop slams, all moves in wrestling have been considered finishing moves right? DDTs, falcon arrows, moonsaults, chokeslams, every running strike, the sleeper, cross armbreakers, the calf crusher, etc. I could go on all day. In the WWE people have punches to the face as finishers, and yet people punch each other in the face like every single match. Everyone super kicks.

Of course I realize that, there have been plenty of weak finishers. Hell, the most popular wrestler of all time did a weakass legdrop as a finisher.

I agree the WWE roster has a lot of talent. It has the most talent in the world when you consider NXT. But they don't use it, and I wouldn't put Rollins in the top 10 in the WWE right now. Maybe not even top 15.

I don't have a problem with you saying Seth isn't the best in the world, or even the best in WWE, but not Top 10... Top 15?!?! Come on man...

I am curious what you think the peak era of the WWE/F was. My favorite periods in the WWE were Smackdown's Super Six era, 2000 through June 2001, and 1997, where I rather enjoyed everything Austin and Bret were doing. But even during those periods, the WWE had awful stuff going on all over the card.

WWE's had a few peaks, it usually has to do with one big rivalry or a few years where the roster has a great group of upper card talent. I've never cared that much about the mid or lower card acts (I consider, or at least I used to anyway, the Intercontinental Title and Tag Team title chases upper card)... So you have the Hogan/Savage/Warrior/Snake/Demolition/Hart Foundation etc. era... which had some great wrestlers, great storylines, admittedly the matches now have more skill but the storytelling in matches, the believable hatred in rivalries was much better back than. The New Generation era will always be my favorite because Bret Hart will probably always be my favorite wrestler and that was his era, plus you had a few years in there where the roster was stacked with All-Time greats, though there was varying degrees of on their way out (either getting up there in age or leaving for WCW) and not quite there yet guys (Austin and the Rock weren't what they'd become) but some of those rosters were crazy.

But yeah, WWE has always and will always have awful stuff going on. It's still a bit of a carny production, and Vince will always see it as "Entertainment" over wrestling, and his view of "Entertainment" will always be filled with horrible comedy acts, carny freaks and illogical storylines.

 

[Rodimus]

Can I ask when you stopped watching? Also if you thought Seth was doing really well, why did you stop?

Erm, I think mania and the raw after were the last shows I watched....I can't remember watching anything since, I could be wrong though.

Seth was one of the few things I enjoyed, AJ being the other main one. I didn't really like Bryan's character since he came back, still good in the ring though. That's really it for men I'd look forward to watching, so it seemed like a bit of a chore to get through 5+ hours of programming each week to watch Seth and AJ for 30 minutes maximum

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Erm, I think mania and the raw after were the last shows I watched....I can't remember watching anything since, I could be wrong though.

Seth was one of the few things I enjoyed, AJ being the other main one. I didn't really like Bryan's character since he came back, still good in the ring though. That's really it for men I'd look forward to watching, so it seemed like a bit of a chore to get through 5+ hours of programming each week to watch Seth and AJ for 30 minutes maximum

More then fair. And yeah, I fast forward more wrestling then I watch from the WWE. I get through RAW in like 20 mins some times now. It's bad. The only shows I don't fast forward are PPVs (which I watch live) and NXT. Heck, while I enjoy NXT UK, their male midcard is not something I get excited about. The women and the upper card are fantastic though imo.'

Though if you can, I'd suggest the AJ clips. He just got back from a break and seems to be doing something interesting with the Good Bros.

 

[Rodimus]

More then fair. And yeah, I fast forward more wrestling then I watch from the WWE. I get through RAW in like 20 mins some times now. It's bad. The only shows I don't fast forward are PPVs (which I watch live) and NXT. Heck, while I enjoy NXT UK, their male midcard is not something I get excited about. The women and the upper card are fantastic though imo.'

Though if you can, I'd suggest the AJ clips. He just got back from a break and seems to be doing something interesting with the Good Bros.

I meant to say actually, I was enjoying the women as well. I was purely talking about then male roster above.

 

[OnTheAir]