BvS The Zack Snyder Validation Thread (big rant)

[jmc]

Well, my issue with the Metropolis destruction is simply that Supes never seems particularly bothered by what's going on around him. When standing in the DCCU's Ground Zero, I don't think telling a "joke" and kissing the girl is the best thing to do. Is he not the least bit horrified by what's happened? Clark obviously cares about humans, as shown earlier in the film, but there's a weird disconnect in the final minutes of the film. Superman never acknowledges the destruction around him. The loss of life. The movie spends precious time showing us how "human" Clark is via flashbacks, but somehow he is not affected by the destruction? Neither is Lois, apparently, or anyone else, really, now that I think about it. Not sure if that was a conscious decision. I mean, no one really reflects on what happened, bizarrely. It's not just Superman. Literally no one in the movie cares to comment on what just ocurred in Metropolis.

When Superman confronts Zod, there's no anger. He seems to kinda pity the General, actually. He only shows true emotion after he snaps the Zod's neck. So Superman gets pissy (rightfully so) at the guy in the bar, but the death of thousands? Nope, ain't nobody got time to get pissed at that.
Then we cut to the Swanwick scene, and you know the rest.

Another example of the disjointed nature of the film. I've said this before but it's like the film is just filled with unfocused characters.

 

[Deserana]

No I'm not. I wanted the creative team to show Superman at his best during the climax.

I understand both sides to the arguments you and other poster presented but this just lead to a quick question.

Wouldn't it have been a bit sudden to suddenly have Superman be like this unbeatable god in his first fight? Just for arguments sake ignore everything else of Superman lore and just take what Snyder put on screen. It's a guy who knows nothing of his race and hides amongst the people of Earth. He has powers but doesn't know what the limits of them are. In the first hour you see him (vaguely) start to investigate them and just how powerful he is, But he is also some one who stays away from violence. So when Zod and a whole crew of people storm down he quickly learns all about his race and that Zod wants to wipe out Earth which would immediately put anyone in the mindset of WTF is going on. Then all the people in Zod's crew have the same amount of power and he engages his (at this point) second physical battle, in which the first time he kinda got his ass handed to him.

Wouldn't it have been odd to just then have him fly around, take Zod and his crew and the machine out as well as take time to save random people with complete ease? A few glimpses here or there in the final battle of Superman maybe moving people from danger or preventing people from being crushed? Fine. But Superman at his best would have been jarring. Much like in TASM 2 when Harry turns goblin and suddenly becomes a pro at fighting and gliding.

 

[Diabo]

No I'm not. I wanted the creative team to show Superman at his best during the climax. Is that really a hard concept to understand? I'm serious, do you actually understand what it is I'm trying to say? I honestly can't spell it out any clearer or in any more depth than I already have. You haven't really counter argued any valid points to the issues I and others have brought up, you're essentially saying him battling the bad guys is enough, and if you feel that way personally that's fine, but you can't honestly say to me you can't see where other people may be coming from given the detailed responses and list of grievances you've been getting.

I counter-argued every single point you brought up. He didn´t only battle the bad guys, but he saved people several times through the entire movie. More than The Avengers, my friend. It´s Ok for you to desire something different than what it was shown. But the reality is that the "issues" you brought up are also present in The Avengers. Unless you´re happy with the amount of heroic scenes we got from The Avengers in the entire movie, wich are, in fact, in less number than in MOS.

Yeah, kicking Alien´s asses and blowing up the entire city while thousands certainly die is really that much different from what we saw in MOS. No doubt about it. Captain has a scene saving someone! Clap, clap, clap! What about the rest of the movie? What about the rest of the climax? I didn´t see them saving that many people. What i saw was a city getting destroyed while our heroes were having "fun" in a movie based on super heroes measuring d*cks. The amount of time they spent fighting with each other they could have done something way more heroic, don´t you think? Is that your great super hero movie? C´mon, son...

Plus, we´re talking about "6" people and none of them was actively saving citizens. Superman was just one and had his hands full. The Avengers were 6.

 

[blumatic]

Didn't Superman risk his life by going to stop the World Engine.

Before he left Lois reminded him that the atmosphere can hurt him. What does Superman say: "I can't let that stop me."

I get the writing in the film was off. But to say that Superman didn't exist is really short sighted.

It was spewing through out the film that he has a desire to help people. Now I guess if he had done the acts he did as a kid but also in the Superman suit it would appease some of you. But I saw the film as all connected. He's been doing good deeds through out the whole film. But I do like that Snyder gave Superman his moment to show off. Not just be the angel, but to be the bad ass hero that he is. And what makes a hero in the Comics cool. The fighting.

As for Captain America, with this being his first feature film, and him being old fashion by nature and default (born in early 1900s) this was an easy job. They stuck to the basic script.

MOS was climbing an uphill battle.

 

[blumatic]

Well, my issue with the Metropolis destruction is simply that Supes never seems particularly bothered by what's going on around him. When standing in the DCCU's Ground Zero, I don't think telling a "joke" and kissing the girl is the best thing to do. Is he not the least bit horrified by what's happened? Clark obviously cares about humans, as shown earlier in the film, but there's a weird disconnect in the final minutes of the film. Superman never acknowledges the destruction around him. The loss of life. The movie spends precious time showing us how "human" Clark is via flashbacks, but somehow he is not affected by the destruction? Neither is Lois, apparently, or anyone else, really, now that I think about it. Not sure if that was a conscious decision. I mean, no one really reflects on what happened, bizarrely. It's not just Superman. Literally no one in the movie cares to comment on what just ocurred in Metropolis.

When Superman confronts Zod, there's no anger. He seems to kinda pity the General, actually. He only shows true emotion after he snaps the Zod's neck. So Superman gets pissy (rightfully so) at that guy in the bar, but the death of thousands? Nope, ain't nobody got time to get pissed at that.

Then we cut to the Swanwick scene, and you know the rest.

I think that's asking for much. How many times in Hollywood is the a kiss or joke amongst chaos. It's a Hollywood thing.

When Superman notices Zod he shows concern. Zod had a moving speech. Superman should feel pity.

I think when you get off your high and tunnel vision during a battle is when you can see the devastation.

It's not disjointed at all. And if it is then all action movies are guilty of it. Batman has no problems driving a tank on a rooftop of buildings. I mean a tank can collapse through a roof.

 

[Diabo]

I think that's asking for much. How many times in Hollywood is the a kiss or joke amongst chaos. It's a Hollywood thing.

When Superman notices Zod he shows concern. Zod had a moving speech. Superman should feel pity.

I think when you get off your high and tunnel vision during a battle is when you can see the devastation.

It's not disjointed at all. And if it is then all action movies are guilty of it. Batman has no problems driving a tank on a rooftop of buildings. I mean a tank can collapse through a roof.

Selective memory, my friend. They will only remember or pay attention to what suits them.

 

[jmc]

I understand both sides to the arguments you and other poster presented but this just lead to a quick question.

Wouldn't it have been a bit sudden to suddenly have Superman be like this unbeatable god in his first fight? Just for arguments sake ignore everything else of Superman lore and just take what Snyder put on screen. It's a guy who knows nothing of his race and hides amongst the people of Earth. He has powers but doesn't know what the limits of them are. In the first hour you see him (vaguely) start to investigate them and just how powerful he is, But he is also some one who stays away from violence. So when Zod and a whole crew of people storm down he quickly learns all about his race and that Zod wants to wipe out Earth which would immediately put anyone in the mindset of WTF is going on. Then all the people in Zod's crew have the same amount of power and he engages his (at this point) second physical battle, in which the first time he kinda got his ass handed to him.

Wouldn't it have been odd to just then have him fly around, take Zod and his crew and the machine out as well as take time to save random people with complete ease? A few glimpses here or there in the final battle of Superman maybe moving people from danger or preventing people from being crushed? Fine. But Superman at his best would have been jarring. Much like in TASM 2 when Harry turns goblin and suddenly becomes a pro at fighting and gliding.

It should never be easy for the hero, it makes the victory better. For me anyway the problem is still the heroes journey along the way regardless of who the hero is. If we take this film for what it is then Clark isn't really an interesting person in the first place, he might be a good guy, but his journey to discovering who he is and his place on Earth is haphazard in its execution and at times flat out boring. Discounting what is to be expected of Superman the final battle still poses no emotional resonance whatsoever, it's not enough to say the world is at stake, that's generic, there's nothing emotionally at stake for Clark. I look at something like Dawn of the Planet of the Apes were the final climax is filled with heightened tension due to the events that transpired in the lead up to the battle. Superman and Zod's relationship is virtually non-existent for the finale to have any real meaning, nor is anyone personal to him in any great danger for a long period of time during the final act. So what we are left with is a clunky journey for a character that doesn't really lead anywhere interesting or have any great payoff at the end for him, a villain he has no real connection to other than heritage, and underdeveloped relationships with the supporting characters. This isn't even about the traditional Superman traits, it's not even really about Superman himself, it's about a heroes journey and telling that right.

 

[TheNextNolan22]

He's living our dream. Z Man doesn't really need a validation thread

"Hate all you want; You're gonna be first in line opening night."

 

[Micromind]

I liked MOS and I don't think that the destruction in Metropolis was Superman's fault but the kiss with Lois while standing in rubble was too much, it looked cheap, it is out of character just like the infamous "stalker" scene in SR.

 

[I Am The Knight]

I think that's asking for much. How many times in Hollywood is the a kiss or joke amongst chaos. It's a Hollywood thing.

So that's it? It's a Hollywood thing? And what is asking for too much? I don't mind them kissing at some point, because I guess they have to do that, but they chose the wrong place, time, dialogue, etc.

When Superman notices Zod he shows concern. Zod had a moving speech. Superman should feel pity.

Sure, obviously Supes should feel some empathy, but this is the guy who just leveled entire blocks of a major american city. Superman seems unmoved by it all.

Also, Zod was bat s*** crazy.

I think when you get off your high and tunnel vision during a battle is when you can see the devastation.

Um, OK. Well, he had that moment with Lois, no? They kiss, stop and then kiss some more before Zod appears. If Zod had fled the battlefield, would they have had sex right there before Superman decided he should "see the devastation" ?

It's not disjointed at all. And if it is then all action movies are guilty of it. Batman has no problems driving a tank on a rooftop of buildings. I mean a tank can collapse through a roof.

Yeah, Bats was being reckless, and the film actually addresses that in the next scene. But Bats was reckless because Rachel was going to potentially die, and he had to escape the cops who were getting in his way.

 

[DA_Champion]

This thread reminds me of September 2013.

 

[D.P.]

This thread reminds me of September 2013.

I think it's possible people may be lost.

This is the thread they're looking for:

http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=484013

Thank me later.

 

[Bathead]

You more than likely misread.

No, I did not. I know exactly what I read.

 

[Jekecy]

No, I did not. I know exactly what I read.

Well I'd be interested in reading this alleged post. I know several people have used those terms before, and so have I, but definitely not in the manner which you claim.

 

[Bwahaha!]

I can't really call myself a rabid Zack Snyder fan. I watched Watchmen back in the day, and was impressed, not investigating who directed. Then when MOS hit, that film became my all-time fav superhero flick (well, maybe it's tied with the Dark Knight and original Spiderman...and if the Matrix doesn't count, lol).

Anyway, Snyder made me a SM fan again, after not caring about this character for quite a while.

So I've only watched his Watchmen and MOS but do plan on renting 300 soon and we might even make it a double feature with Sucker Punch, despite the bad things I've heard about SP.

Never anticipated a film as much as BvS. Someone pls invent a time machine that can zoom me to 2016!!!

 

[sf2]

I can't really call myself a rabid Zack Snyder fan. I watched Watchmen back in the day, and was impressed, not investigating who directed. Then when MOS hit, that film became my all-time fav superhero flick (well, maybe it's tied with the Dark Knight and original Spiderman...and if the Matrix doesn't count, lol).

Anyway, Snyder made me a SM fan again, after not caring about this character for quite a while.

So I've only watched his Watchmen and MOS but do plan on renting 300 soon and we might even make it a double feature with Sucker Punch, despite the bad things I've heard about SP.

Never anticipated a film as much as BvS. Someone pls invent a time machine that can zoom me to 2016!!!

Sucker punch is... cool. the beginning is simply excellent. though the movie is very much like a video game.

 

[TheNextNolan22]

I love video games so I have no problems with that comparison.

 

[The Endless]

It's like one of those boring hack n slash video games that have about 3 different attacks though.

 

[LamboMan]

It's like one of those boring hack n slash video games that have about 3 different attacks though.

Except it has way more depth to the story, themes and characters.

 

[The Endless]

It attempts to yea.

Female empowerment yea? Allegories to rape? Ok cool. So why are the females running around looking like sex dolls in male fantasies and taking orders from a man? There is nothing empowering about it. The moral of the story basically is "if you're a woman, you're ****ed and you are destined to be subservient to men".

I liked the idea about escaping harsh realities through music and fantasies, but overall i think the film just completely fumbled the ball.

It's the defining example of Snyder having great ideas but poorly communicating them.

 

[LamboMan]

It attempts to yea.

Female empowerment yea? Allegories to rape? Ok cool. So why are the females running around looking like sex dolls in male fantasies and taking orders from a man?

I liked the idea about escaping harsh realities through music and fantasies, but overall i think the film just completely fumbled the ball.

It's the defining example of Snyder having great ideas but poorly communicating them.

Actually they weren't taking orders from a man per say, that old guys was just a personification of God really, someone who was guiding them, just a mentor. The main real world character whose actions supported them and who sacrificed herself for them was that madame/doctor.

And the last line of the movie clearly states, as said by the female lead, that the only one who can free you is you, no one else. It wasn't just about female empowerment, it was also about anybody's struggles in life and overcoming them.

Watch this and see for yourself >>
[YT]_1dfH3Wi5eQ[/YT]

 

[The Batman]

I don't think that Sucker Punch is this great work of art, but I do think it was an entertaining film that was bashed more than it should've been.

 

[Tanin]

I haven't hated a Snyder film yet.

 

[The Endless]

I don't hate any films. Hating something requires effort.

Actually maybe the Bayformers sequels. They are actively offensive though, not just unintentionally badly made.

 

[Tanin]

I don't hate any films. Hating something requires effort.

Okay then

I enjoy and own all of Snyder's films. Better?