BvS The Zack Snyder Validation Thread (big rant)

[BatLobster]

and I think that is a totally valid observation and a debate worth having because ultimately this is the man tasked with bringing some of our favourite characters to life.

I completely agree. I don't think people want to maliciously bash Snyder for the most part, but given his mixed track record, it's interesting that he has been trusted with such a monumental task right now and it's unavoidably going to be part of the dialogue for now. Obviously WB trusts him to take them where they need to go.

I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt, and I hope that Ben is able to offer another set of eyes wherever it may help.

 

[DA_Champion]

I think MoS could have been truly great in the hands of a more capable director. MoS tried to be very self-important, and strove to be very ideological and have an impact. All the commentary with Pa Kent and how Superman's arrival would affect people's beliefs, the Krypton material speaking about the fall of a great civilization, Jor-El wanting Clark to be a "bridge between two races" etc etc. Someone like Nolan would have handled that much better. It's just not Snyder's forte.

Snyder's best movie was 300, imo. It was simple, it was flashy, and it was entertaining. It didn't attempt to speak about philosophical or political issues. MoS tried to be very ambitious and transcend the genre as the TDK trilogy did, and Snyder couldn't handle it.

The self importance of MoS is in Goyer's script.

 

[TeeKay]

The self importance of MoS is in Goyer's script.

I'm not arguing otherwise (well I'm speaking for myself), most of the faults in MOS lie in Goyer's script than Synder's direction. The things I blame Snyder for in MOS is the execution of certain scenes.

 

[jmc]

I completely agree. I don't think people want to maliciously bash Snyder for the most part, but given his mixed track record, it's interesting that he has been trusted with such a monumental task right now and it's unavoidably going to be part of the dialogue for now. Obviously WB trusts him to take them where they need to go.

I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt, and I hope that Ben is able to offer another set of eyes wherever it may help.

The worst that happens is if the reaction to BvS is equally divisive as MoS. If he doesn't learn, and learn quick, the mistake he's made then the outcry will be ten times worse than MoS. It sets up JL in the worst possible way.

 

[DA_Champion]

There's some evidence that the production team responds to criticism. Prior to MoS, the criticisms floating were that Superman didn't land a single punch in Superman Returns, and that Snyder uses too much slow motion. Those were the dominant criticisms, and both were addressed.

For BvS, we know they hired a different screenwriter, it's a response to criticism even if we don't know who pushed it.

Unfortunately, the dominant criticism after MoS was that Superman killed Zod, so I'm worried we'll get a long and cliche PTSD story point.

 

[jmc]

I still wish it was Affleck directing.

 

[IncognitoWalrus]

Unfortunately, the dominant criticism after MoS was that Superman killed Zod, so I'm worried we'll get a long and cliche PTSD story point.

Yeah, same. Originally at the end of MOS, I thought it a PTSD story would be necessary, but the more I thought about it, the more I disliked it. If they go for it, I don't want it to make the movie super mopey.

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

I think all Snyder needs is a great screenwriter. Snyder is good at making things come to life visually, and does has a strong grasp on action and often tries to go deeper with movies, but struggles because he is not that good writer, nor he hasn't had good writers work with most of his career. I have some hope for this movie just because it looks like Goyer got kicked off and Terrio is an Oscar-Winning screenwriter who WB seems to some faith in (since they want him for Justice League also instead of bringing Goyer back).

 

[Jekecy]

I think all Snyder needs is a great screenwriter.

This is often noted, but storytelling is by no means as simple as lifting words off of a page. There are mechanics to actual directing, editing, pacing...all of which operate independently from the screenplay.

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

All of which I believe Snyder has shown to be at least competent at. I'd say his biggest problem outside of story is tone.

 

[badgrammar]

I didn't hate it, but I was disappointed with it as a film.

Snyder deserves praise for putting perhaps the most beloved attempt of the source material up on the silver screen, but I think it fell far short of what Watchmen could've done not only for the comic book genre, but the industry in general.

The film should've been as culturally impactful as the book was for its time. I truly think Greengrass would've accomplished that had he not been cut off from production.

Maybe it's the Graphic novel that sucks Since the Graphic novel was practically copy and paste into a live action movie. You can't get more faithful than Watchmen, but you know that fans will never be happy. So you know what? lets make the Amazons and Atlantians decedents of kryptonians.

 

[jmc]

My biggest problem with that reasoning regarding him needing a great screenwriter is that he's still the one who has to understand the story he's putting on screen. You cant leave it to the screenplay to do all the heavy lifting.

 

[Jekecy]

Maybe it's the Graphic novel that sucks Since the Graphic novel was practically copy and paste into a live action movie. You can't get more faithful than Watchmen, but you know that fans will never be happy.

Considering Watchmen is probably my most beloved single graphic novel I've read, I doubt that to be the case. The problem with this line of thinking is somehow quality can translate across mediums without alterations to the direction and presentation of the story. The most revered comic book films aren't ones which can be gauged upon their faithfulness to the source. It's ultimately how good a film it is.

And while Snyder absolutely did alter things for live-action, it had more to do with compacting for a 3 hour movie. I prefer the approach where the medium and runtime are taken into account well before the editing stages.

 

[DA_Champion]

My biggest problem with that reasoning regarding him needing a great screenwriter is that he's still the one who has to understand the story he's putting on screen. You can leave it to the screenplay to do all the heavy lifting.

I'm going to be honest, even though this point you're making, about the importance of editing and of prioritising the important scenes and of understanding the script, is obvious once you explain it, I don't think I was explicitly cognisant of it beforehand, and that may be the case for a lot of other people.

It's a great point -- but I'm not sure it implies to MoS.

Regardless of whether or not Snyder understood the story, it's not clear that the story was that dynamic that it would have benefited from a higher talent "understanding" it. I still think the script is subpar. I think if it weren't for Snyder elevating this weak script with good casting, acting, visuals, use of sound, sense of epicness, et cetera this movie might have scored 25% on RT, like Green Lantern did where the direction was as bad as the screenplay. If you go back to the reviews, nearly everything people liked about MoS is independent of the script, the only exception were that Clark's last words to Pa Kent before his death were "you're not my real dad".

I read your posts as suggesting that if Snyder was better at storytelling he would have better understood the strength in Goyer's script and polished it better. I'm more inclined to think that if Snyder was better at storytelling he would have lobbied for a page-one rewrite, assuming that he was allowed to do so.

The story we saw on screen is one where Clark never speaks in sentences longer than 4 or 5 words and barely says much at all, one where he's mostly reacting to what other people are doing/saying rather than being the source of agency himself. It's one where Jor-El tasks Clark with the mission of bringing back Krypton one day, but Clark ends up frying all the innocent embryos with heat vision. The whole codex plot point really doesn't make much sense at all, quite frankly, it's a less functional McGuffin than even the one in GoTG or in TDKR, and that's on Goyer.

 

[hafizbat]

The self importance of MoS is in Goyer's script.

That's true. Goyer tried to bring the same Nolan style substance, but it didn't turn out nearly as well.

I'm actually excited for BvS, because I hope it will be more of Snyder's element. Take Snyder's 300 form, and give him a "terrific" Terrio script, and hopefully it will be Snyder's best movie yet.

 

[jmc]

I'm going to be honest, even though this point you're making, about the importance of editing and of prioritising the important scenes and of understanding the script, is obvious once you explain it, I don't think I was explicitly cognisant of it beforehand, and that may be the case for a lot of other people.

It's a great point -- but I'm not sure it implies to MoS.

Regardless of whether or not Snyder understood the story, it's not clear that the story was that dynamic that it would have benefited from a higher talent "understanding" it. I still think the script is subpar. I think if it weren't for Snyder elevating this weak script with good casting, acting, visuals, use of sound, sense of epicness, et cetera this movie might have scored 25% on RT, like Green Lantern did where the direction was as bad as the screenplay. If you go back to the reviews, nearly everything people liked about MoS is independent of the script, the only exception were that Clark's last words to Pa Kent before his death were "you're not my real dad".

I read your posts as suggesting that if Snyder was better at storytelling he would have better understood the strength in Goyer's script and polished it better. I'm more inclined to think that if Snyder was better at storytelling he would have lobbied for a page-one rewrite, assuming that he was allowed to do so.

The story we saw on screen is one where Clark never speaks in sentences longer than 4 or 5 words and barely says much at all, one where he's mostly reacting to what other people are doing/saying rather than being the source of agency himself. It's one where Jor-El tasks Clark with the mission of bringing back Krypton one day, but Clark ends up frying all the innocent embryos with heat vision. The whole codex plot point really doesn't make much sense at all, quite frankly, it's a less functional McGuffin than even the one in GoTG or in TDKR, and that's on Goyer.

You are actually 100% correct with regards to a rewrite. A good director is willing to make substantial changes, or in extreme cases create a page one rewrite as what happened with Dawn of the Planet of the Apes.

 

[zryson]

I thought the opening Krypton sequence was great. My issue with MOS is the over indulgent third act and more specifically, the last fight with Zod. I get the rationale of wanting to show two God like beings fighting and it was good, but after the whole world engine scenario you start to feel a little numb.

I still enjoyed MOS a lot, but the last 30 minutes or so could have been handled better.

Man of Steel is one of those movies I no longer watch, nor keep a copy of. Its just too jarring, doesnt have enough emphasis on fleshing out the characters and the flashbacks actually under-mine the narrative. Even some of the seasoned actors like Amy Adams get so little to do in the movie. Its why I hope Terrio has fleshed out the story and characters to a greater degree. Snyder needs to really work on telling a more cohesive story, less relying on spectacle.

 

[DA_Champion]

Do you guys actually watch movies 100 times?

I've watched MoS 4 times, and for me that's exceptionally high.

I don't think it matters if a movie is boring when I watch it for the 11th time, there's a reason I never make it to 11.

 

[Steamteck]

Man of Steel is one of those movies I no longer watch, nor keep a copy of. Its just too jarring, doesnt have enough emphasis on fleshing out the characters and the flashbacks actually under-mine the narrative. Even some of the seasoned actors like Amy Adams get so little to do in the movie. Its why I hope Terrio has fleshed out the story and characters to a greater degree. Snyder needs to really work on telling a more cohesive story, less relying on spectacle.

I disagree with you on about everything here and hope Terrio doesn't somehow make all the stuff I see in MOS legible to you but lose the magic the first one had for me. He's really the only creator I don't have full confidence at this point. I really don't know how he'll do with this sort of material. Personally it seems a lot of people are blinded by the spectacle and forget to notice the rest of the film.

Mos was a must buy for home use asap and I've watched it many times.

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

My biggest problem with that reasoning regarding him needing a great screenwriter is that he's still the one who has to understand the story he's putting on screen. You cant leave it to the screenplay to do all the heavy lifting.

Unfortunately, I think that's best way to get great Snyder directed movies. We've seen what he's done when he had to write a script, and his other movies have shown that while he tries to go deeper and push the envelope more than the usual Hollywood director, it's come with mixed results at best. Some directors just aren't as good with story as others unfortunately. If MoS was the best Snyder could do at understanding Superman, then Snyder doesn't understand Superman.

 

[Nemeres]

Unfortunately, I think that's best way to get great Snyder directed movies. We've seen what he's done when he had to write a script, and his other movies have shown that while he tries to go deeper and push the envelope more than the usual Hollywood director, it's come with mixed results at best. Some directors just aren't as good with story as others unfortunately. If MoS was the best Snyder could do at understanding Superman, then Snyder doesn't understand Superman.

My concern is that with this film's inclusion of Batman, he'll feel he won't even need to.

 

[DA_Champion]

My concern is that with this film's inclusion of Batman, he'll feel he won't even need to.

Snyder clearly cares emotionally, his interest level and passion are not the issue.

 

[jmc]

Unfortunately, I think that's best way to get great Snyder directed movies. We've seen what he's done when he had to write a script, and his other movies have shown that while he tries to go deeper and push the envelope more than the usual Hollywood director, it's come with mixed results at best. Some directors just aren't as good with story as others unfortunately. If MoS was the best Snyder could do at understanding Superman, then Snyder doesn't understand Superman.

In which case you are never going to get great Snyder directed movies. An art teacher told me if you don't have an understanding of the basic fundamentals the art is never going to reach its full potential. That goes for all creative mediums.

 

[Zionite1]

There's some evidence that the production team responds to criticism. Prior to MoS, the criticisms floating were that Superman didn't land a single punch in Superman Returns, and that Snyder uses too much slow motion. Those were the dominant criticisms, and both were addressed.

For BvS, we know they hired a different screenwriter, it's a response to criticism even if we don't know who pushed it.

Unfortunately, the dominant criticism after MoS was that Superman killed Zod, so I'm worried we'll get a long and cliche PTSD story point.

I wld not mind if the Zod killing was treated as briefly.As possible.Seriously dont want mopey Superman.

What i want is Superman to regret what he had to do,but understand it was necessary and have moved on.

I disagree with you on about everything here and hope Terrio doesn't somehow make all the stuff I see in MOS legible to you but lose the magic the first one had for me. He's really the only creator I don't have full confidence at this point. I really don't know how he'll do with this sort of material. Personally it seems a lot of people are blinded by the spectacle and forget to notice the rest of the film.

Mos was a must buy for home use asap and I've watched it many times.

Im also worried a bit by Terrio.Great writer but I REALLY worry he'll write BVS to favor Batman because of Affleck.This should be a Superman sequel

 

[WBwins]

It's a great point -- but I'm not sure it implies to MoS.

Regardless of whether or not Snyder understood the story, it's not clear that the story was that dynamic that it would have benefited from a higher talent "understanding" it. I still think the script is subpar. I think if it weren't for Snyder elevating this weak script with good casting, acting, visuals, use of sound, sense of epicness, et cetera this movie might have scored 25% on RT, like Green Lantern did where the direction was as bad as the screenplay. If you go back to the reviews, nearly everything people liked about MoS is independent of the script, the only exception were that Clark's last words to Pa Kent before his death were "you're not my real dad".

I read your posts as suggesting that if Snyder was better at storytelling he would have better understood the strength in Goyer's script and polished it better. I'm more inclined to think that if Snyder was better at storytelling he would have lobbied for a page-one rewrite, assuming that he was allowed to do so.

The story we saw on screen is one where Clark never speaks in sentences longer than 4 or 5 words and barely says much at all, one where he's mostly reacting to what other people are doing/saying rather than being the source of agency himself. It's one where Jor-El tasks Clark with the mission of bringing back Krypton one day, but Clark ends up frying all the innocent embryos with heat vision. The whole codex plot point really doesn't make much sense at all, quite frankly, it's a less functional McGuffin than even the one in GoTG or in TDKR, and that's on Goyer.

Great Post.There were some serious ball-dropping by Goyer.Like makin Jonathan kent a hindrance to Clark becoming a hero,instead of a push.Like making Clark the cause of an Alien invasion.Likemaking a movie aboutthe world reacting to Superman and not showing the world reacting to Superman

You are actually 100% correct with regards to a rewrite. A good director is willing to make substantial changes, or in extreme cases create a page one rewrite as what happened with Dawn of the Planet of the Apes.

Dawn of the Planet of the Apes is quite frankly a shock to me.A page one rewrite and it came out awesome.

Im also worried a bit by Terrio.Great writer but I REALLY worry he'll write BVS to favor Batman because of Affleck.This should be a Superman sequel

This is a very,VERY serious concern of mine about the entire movie