Homecoming The Zendaya is Mary Jane thread - Part 1

[Chesterfield]

No I understand. I'm more "protective" of MJ as well. I guess my criteria for a good adaptation of MJ is a bit looser than yours. It also helps that I'm generally pleased with the casting choice and think she has potential to be a great MJ above previous choices and other names put forward. I'm just excited about the prospect that MJ will be important to Spider-Man again and that we may be getting a positive portrayal of MJ at all even if it's not entirely accurate. With the exception of some recent developments Marvel hasnt exactly been pro-Mary Jane over the last few years. I wouldnt have been suprised if they dropped the character entirely.



Yeah I read that theory too. I don't know how I'd feel about it since I was never really a fan of MJ being uber famous (I prefer her as aspiring to break into the field or c list at best), but having a "secret identity" like Peter does sound intriguing. Though I still wouldnt want her to use the name Michelle. Just dress down to avoid attracting attention.

Just be glad she wasn't given the name Becky.

 

[Chesterfield]

it is easier to get away with changing lesser known, lower tier characters. more so than changing major, iconic, well known characters.

that's why I'm not so bothered if they want to change up Sally or Liz.

but MJ, Gwen, or Harry? that's off limits. to me at least.

however, if you have a character named Michele Gonzalez, you kind of almost have to cast an actress of a certain ethnic type.......lol.

so, no, I wouldn't want Zendaya playing Michele Gonzalez either. I would want a Hispanic or bi-racial Hispanic to play the character.

same with people saying Zendaya playing White Tiger or whoever that character is. No, White Tiger is Hispanic. Zendaya is not.

You obviously don't know how ethnicity works.

 

[Fincher]

Hispanic refers to a person's cultural upbringing. Hypothetically, a Hispanic person could be of any racial makeup. There are a lot of people in South and Central America who are mixed race with some degree of American Indian ancestry, so that's what people often think of when they think of Hispanic. So whether or not casting a non-Hispanic actor is white-washing depends on the character they're playing. Madonna played Eva Perón, but Eva Perón was unambiguously white.

 

[KalvinEllis]

This is a very good comparison but most people nowadays don't seem to care much about logic. Yes, Eva Perón was white, but the only thing people today would care about is that she was from Argentina, therefore it's completely out of the question for her to be played by a Caucasian American actress. If they remake Evita and cast Taylor Swift, all hell would break loose.

 

[SirStrangefolk]

Which is pretty funny considering Zendaya dropped out of Aaliyah when people said she was too white for it. And all the while over half the internet still thinks Tony Revolori is Indian. All this race debate is pretty dumb imo, especially as nothing has been confirmed. I don't care either way.

 

[DigificWriter]

This is a very good comparison but most people nowadays don't seem to care much about logic. Yes, Eva Perón was white, but the only thing people today would care about is that she was from Argentina, therefore it's completely out of the question for her to be played by a Caucasian American actress. If they remake Evita and cast Taylor Swift, all hell would break loose.

This notion that any type of casting must be "specific" (aside from a very few instances) is ridiculous, outdated, and wrong and really needs to die... especially since it only exists in "fandom circles".

If Taylor Swift were to be cast as Eva Peron either on stage or screen, she'd be judged by her performance, not her skin color/ethnicity.

 

[KalvinEllis]

This notion that any type of casting must be "specific" (aside from a very few instances) is ridiculous, outdated, and wrong and really needs to die... especially since it only exists in "fandom circles".

If Taylor Swift were to be cast as Eva Peron either on stage or screen, she'd be judged by her performance, not her skin color/ethnicity.

In a perfect world, sure. In the one we live in, no. Madonna was indeed judged by her performance in 1996. If this was to happen in 2016, Taylor Swift's ethnicity would be the most discussed part about her casting. No, it's not just in "fandom circles" because Eva Peron is not a fictional character, which makes the notion of "whitewashing" someone like her even worse. Anyway, we can probably agree that "controversies" concerning race can happen for almost no reason at all nowadays.

 

[UltimateMarvel]

I'm getting Todd McFarlane's MJ vibes from Zendaya.

 

[Spider-Gnome]

Well, since Gunn gave an accurate description of 616 MJ, and he's telling everyone to settle down, and he has access to what's going on with Homecoming, I'm assuming we should settle down. We'll get that MJ by the end of Homecoming. Would I prefer she look more like classic MJ? Yes. But I will give her a chance. I just hope at the end she gets her signature red hair.

 

[KalvinEllis]

I'm getting Todd McFarlane's MJ vibes from Zendaya.

Ah the good ol' curly perm. t:

 

[PyroChamber]

What if she prefers to go by Michelle because she doesn't like her real name, Mary Jane? This is something that people do, give themselves another name because they don't like the one they have; maybe she thinks Mary Jane sounds lame or old fashion, or she got made fun of because we all know that Mary Jane is a term used for marijuana. And we don't find that out until the "Jackpot" scene happens.

 

[Scarlet Spider]

and hopefully, Marvel will just come out and confirm ( or deny ) this. cuz I agree, it's time to stop playing coy and drop the mystery act.

If the big twist/revelation of this film is Zendaya being MJ, Marvel won't confirm anything until the film is released. Even if it's true, they'll still deny it. So if your waiting on confirmation/denials, I think your out of luck.

We're not going to know what's what, until they screen the film for the first time next summer (to press) and until we see it opening day.

I still firmly believe all of this is true and Zendaya is playing the MCU version of Mary Jane Watson. It's just the specific details and how they're planning on executing it, that remains a mystery.

 

[X Knight]

You obviously don't know how ethnicity works.

 

[DigificWriter]

I'm a theater junkie, and can count on one hand the number of times in the last few years that people have objected to an actor being cast to play a role that had previously been played by someone of a particular ethnicity.

Theater audiences are, by my experience, far more lenient on this "issue", and I wish other audience subgroups would be as well.

 

[X Knight]

Hispanic refers to a person's cultural upbringing. Hypothetically, a Hispanic person could be of any racial makeup. There are a lot of people in South and Central America who are mixed race with some degree of American Indian ancestry, so that's what people often think of when they think of Hispanic. So whether or not casting a non-Hispanic actor is white-washing depends on the character they're playing. Madonna played Eva Perón, but Eva Perón was unambiguously white.

so, what's the right word to use instead of Hispanic that refers to the racial make up or ancestry of someone. Would it be Latin/Latina?

I'm curious now because I've always used the word Hispanic and Latin/Latina interchangeably.

just like I use the words ethnicity and race interchangeably, even though that's oversimplifying it.

 

[PyroChamber]

If the big twist/revelation of this film is Zendaya being MJ, Marvel won't confirm anything until the film is released. Even if it's true, they'll still deny it. So if your waiting on confirmation/denials, I think your out of luck.

We're not going to know what's what, until they screen the film for the first time next summer (to press) and until we see it opening day.

I still firmly believe all of this is true and Zendaya is playing the MCU version of Mary Jane Watson. It's just the specific details and how they're planning on executing it, that remains a mystery.

Makes sense. Hell we didn't know how Spidey would look in Civil War until that last trailer.

 

[X Knight]

This notion that any type of casting must be "specific" (aside from a very few instances) is ridiculous, outdated, and wrong and really needs to die... especially since it only exists in "fandom circles".

If Taylor Swift were to be cast as Eva Peron either on stage or screen, she'd be judged by her performance, not her skin color/ethnicity.

so, you'd be ok with a Black Superman or Asian Batman?

technically, nothing about those characters ties them to a specific race.

however, the chances of that happening are very slim because those characters are so iconic and recognizable.

 

[PeterBenParker]

What if she prefers to go by Michelle because she doesn't like her real name, Mary Jane? This is something that people do, give themselves another name because they don't like the one they have; maybe she thinks Mary Jane sounds lame or old fashion, or she got made fun of because we all know that Mary Jane is a term used for marijuana. And we don't find that out until the "Jackpot" scene happens.

I think this could be the very likely scenario.

 

[X Knight]

I don't like the outdated, ashamed of my real name scenario - unless that's actually part of the character's history and backstory. For example, Flash goes by his nickname Flash, not his real first name Eugene.

But as far as I know, that's not the case with MJ.

that's almost like saying the character itself is outdated - you're ashamed to be that character.

that's like Clark going by Kal because he thinks Clark is too old fashioned.

that's like Peter deciding to go by his middle name Benjamin to honor his late Uncle Ben.

these characters were created with specific names.

Unless Michelle is a disguise/undercover name, she is either Mary Jane Watson or she's not.

you either call the characters by their names or don't even use the character at all.

don't over complicate things by inventing and adding unneeded nuances to the character.

stick to the source material. make changes and tweaks as needed to tell your story. but don't try to reinvent the wheel. otherwise, just create your own original character where you're free to do what you want.

 

[harryoscop]

Ehh, I think it's fine. And to be fair, Clark isn't a teenager attending a modern day School & "Mary Jane" is a little old-fashioned sounding & I could see people making fun of her name along with her look which could be why she goes by Michelle.

 

[X Knight]

Ehh, I think it's fine. And to be fair, Clark isn't a teenager attending a modern day School & "Mary Jane" is a little old-fashioned sounding & I could see people making fun of her name along with her look which could be why she goes by Michelle.

at the very least, I could see her preferring her nickname MJ over the full Mary Jane. but to give her an entirely new name, like Michelle, which the character has never had in her history, that's pushing it.

and if they redid Smallville today and had Clark in modern day HS setting, I wouldn't want his name to be something other than Clark.

He is Clark Kent. He's not suddenly Kal Kent because Clark sounds too old fashioned.

 

[DigificWriter]

so, you'd be ok with a Black Superman or Asian Batman?

technically, nothing about those characters ties them to a specific race.

however, the chances of that happening are very slim because those characters are so iconic and recognizable.

The vast majority of people wouldn't give a **** about non-white versions of those characters. The only people who would raise a stink would be people who are entrenched in their own preconceptions about what a particular character is "supposed" to look like, and I firmly believe that said people really ought to "wake up" and realize how outdated those preconceptions are.

The ONLY instances where it would be genuinely unacceptable not to engage in "color-blind casting" would be instances where a character's race or ethnicity is intrinsic to who they are (Black Panther or Blade, for example).

There is nothing about characters like Bruce Wayne, Clark Kent, Peter Parker, Lois Lane, Mary Jane Watson, etc. that "requires" them to be cast/look a certain way other than outdated preconceptions fostered by people who can't or won't allow the adaptation process to play itself out like it's supposed to.

With regards to the Eva Peron example, the reason that theater audiences and theater directors operate "color-blind" is because it allows for a greater expansion of the material being presented, so it would not be at all out of the question - or questioned, by and large - for an actor of any ethnicity, race, or skin-color to play a role like Eva Peron even though she was in fact a real person because, within the context of the narrative of Evita itself, her skin color, race, ethnicity are inconsequential. All that matters, on stage or onscreen within the context of Evita's narrative, is that she's portrayed as Argentinian, something that any actor worth their salt could convincingly portray regardless of their individual skin color, race, or ethnicity.

 

[PeterBenParker]

I don't like the outdated, ashamed of my real name scenario - unless that's actually part of the character's history and backstory. For example, Flash goes by his nickname Flash, not his real first name Eugene.

But as far as I know, that's not the case with MJ.

Correct, but as Pyro kinda said, Mary Jane in itself is sorta outdated at least in terms of being commonly used so I wouldn't have an issue with it if, while being her real name, she masks it by using her middle name.

that's almost like saying the character itself is outdated - you're ashamed to be that character.

That also may be where they're going with it. Perhaps Michele was Mary Jane before, i.e. the MJ everybody knows and loves. The party girl, etc. and maybe that got her into trouble. Maybe she got a bad rep. Maybe one thing lead to another and her and her Aunt moved to NY to start anew. So maybe she purposely dresses the way she does and acts the way she does to get away from that. Then as she gets closer to Peter or what-have-you, she comes clean. They could be going the way of her facade in reverse order.

these characters were created with specific names.

you either call the characters by their names or don't even use the character at all.

don't over complicate things by inventing and adding unneeded nuances to the character.

Again, normally that argument would hold weight but look at Ned Leeds, look at Flash, etc. That clearly isn't an issue for 'em and to be honest, since they've been changing Ned/Flash, they really should apply that to everyone else at this point.

I'm not a fan of it, really, but imagine getting a classic MJ with the Flash we have now. You'd have people complaining about how MJ got a pass yet Flash was altered. I'd even use Ned but then you'd have the "well he's smaller so it doesn't matter" which I always thought was BS because I feel like that argument should apply to any and all comic characters.

Anyway, all of this debating will ultimately amount to nothing because we're getting a "faithful" Peter Parker and a mixed-and-matched supporting cast no matter what.

 

[X Knight]

The vast majority of people wouldn't give a **** about non-white versions of those characters. The only people who would raise a stink would be people who are entrenched in their own preconceptions about what a particular character is "supposed" to look like, and I firmly believe that said people really ought to "wake up" and realize how outdated those preconceptions are.

The ONLY instances where it would be genuinely unacceptable not to engage in "color-blind casting" would be instances where a character's race or ethnicity is intrinsic to who they are (Black Panther or Blade, for example).

There is nothing about characters like Bruce Wayne, Clark Kent, Peter Parker, Lois Lane, Mary Jane Watson, etc. that "requires" them to be cast/look a certain way other than outdated preconceptions fostered by people who can't or won't allow the adaptation process to play itself out like it's supposed to.

then......why hasn't any of that been done yet?

Yeah, we're possibly getting a black/bi-racial MJ.

but why didn't they make Peter black?

Why wasn't Superman black in MOS?

Why didn't they go for an Asian Batman in B v S?

there's a reason. and that's because the Studios still think those moves are too risky.

maybe, someday in the future we will get those changes.

but right now, it's obviously still considered too risky by the Studios - otherwise, they would have done it by now.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

I'm getting Todd McFarlane's MJ vibes from Zendaya.

That not remind me of Zendaya.

then......why hasn't any of that been done yet?

Yeah, we're possibly getting a black/bi-racial MJ.

but why didn't they make Peter black?

Why wasn't Superman black in MOS?

Why didn't they go for an Asian Batman in B v S?

there's a reason. and that's because the Studios still think those moves are too risky.

maybe, someday in the future we will get those changes.

but right now, it's obviously still considered too risky by the Studios - otherwise, they would have done it by now.

Agreed.