Homecoming The Zendaya is Mary Jane thread - Part 1

[Avenging Angel]

Stan the Man.

 

[JOE]

that's funny about Stan Lee.

cuz I found this article from last year.

http://hollywoodlife.com/2015/06/30...r-explains-why-sony-agreement-white-straight/

when asked about seeing more gay heroes in the future, Stan replied:

“There’s no reason not to,” he replied. “The only thing I don’t like doing is changing the characters we already have. For example, I’d like Spider-Man to stay as he is, but I have no problem creating a superhero who’s homosexual.”

was Stan just referring to making Spidey gay?? Was he only talking about not wanting to change Spidey? Is only Spidey untouchable?

I guess so, cuz now he is defending the casting of Zendaya.

seems kind of contradictory to me.........

which is why I don't put much weight into his words.

Because the only thing changing about MJ is the color of her skin. That's a lot different than her sexuality. What's the difference between her and the MJ in Raimi's films if there characterization is the same? If they made Peter a homosexual than there would be a TON of differences. That's why Stan is okay with one over the other. He's not contradicting himself.

 

[X Knight]

Because the only thing changing about MJ is the color of her skin. That's a lot different than her sexuality. What's the difference between her and the MJ in Raimi's films if there characterization is the same? If they made Peter a homosexual than there would be a TON of differences. That's why Stan is okay with one over the other. He's not contradicting himself.

yeah. I thought about that too after making that initial post. and I can see that point.

however, you say that the only thing changing about MJ is the color of her skin.

well, that's just not true. it's not just her race that's changed. it's her overall look, her style of dress, and more importantly her personality and supposed story arc.

She doesn't have her signature red hair. Yeah, she can dye it, but that's different from the character having red hair by default. It's like Clark Kent being a natural blond but dying his hair black when he gets a job at the Planet. Or Peter being blond at first, then dying his hair brown after the spider bit. Not quite the same as if that was the character's natural hair color.

Z's MJ is also being deliberately dressed down to look plain and frumpy and all "buttoned up." That doesn't sound like MJ. MJ isn't plain looking.

Z's MJ has been described by the actress herself as being super dry, awkward, quiet, and bookish. That doesn't like MJ at all. in fact, the total opposite.

And if they are going for such an opposite look and personality to begin with in order to have her undergo a massive transformation into "classic" MJ, then that's giving her a story arc not usually associated with the character.

People like Stan and Gunn keep saying it doesn't matter what the skin color is, as long as they capture the core spirit of the character. Gunn himself even said that to him, MJ's core is her "alpha female playfulness." Which is correct. Alpha female playfulness does describe MJ.

except, alpha female playfulness does not match all the stuff I listed above. Everything listed above, which comes from her set pic look and the description of her personality, is the opposite of alpha female playfulness.

so, when you say only her skin color has changed, that's not really true. because it seems her entire character has changed.

and we are all assuming she will "transform" from quiet, awkward bookworm into playful, sassy, beauty like classic MJ. However, that's just an assumption we are all making. We have no idea if that will even happen. What if......the character doesn't transform at all and stays and looks pretty much the same throughout the films?

 

[KalvinEllis]

What a predictable "salient" response.

As compared to your predictable responses that look for things that aren't there? Randomly using a movie that happens to have the word "apes" in its title, in a thread about a black actress, doesn't make the original poster racist. Keep reaching.

 

[Chesterfield]

As compared to your predictable responses that look for things that aren't there? Randomly using a movie that happens to have the word "apes" in its title, in a thread about a black actress, doesn't make the original poster racist. Keep reaching.

There's nothing to look for. It's there; written. If you weren't too busy rolling your eyes and got them to focus on the words used, you'd see it; or to be generous, perhaps you need to see an occulist? Or just maybe you dont want to see it. You can acknowledge a discussion that is dominant in conveying ill favour towards a black actress and a comparison to a film about apes and you genuinely can't see why one may find an issue with that? Just how small is your world? But please, by all means carry on with burying your head in the sand.

 

[KalvinEllis]

There's nothing to look for. It's there; written. If you weren't too busy rolling your eyes and got them to focus on the words used, you'd see it; or to be generous, perhaps you need to see an occulist? Or just maybe you dont want to see it. You can acknowledge a discussion that is dominant in conveying ill favour towards a black actress and a comparison to a film about apes and you genuinely can't see why one may find an issue with that? Just how small is your world? But please, by all means carry on with burying your head in the sand.

Except the discussions here don't convey ill favor towards a black actress, they convey ill favor towards the presentation of a character that seemingly has nothing to do with the original depiction. I've pointed out in an earlier comment that Kirsten Dunst "looking the part" didn't make her portrayal of Mary Jane good. The same way Zendaya "not looking the part" isn't the actual problem, it's that the character itself so far doesn't seem to have anything to do with how MJ is like. This isn't racism, Zendaya being black is not a problem for me, and even if some people may not like the fact that Mary Jane is black here, that doesn't make them racist towards the actress playing her, it means they simply want to see their favorites faithfully portrayed on the big screen. There certainly are embarrassing racist fans out there, I don't tend to see that on this board. People don't deserve to be treated like crap for simply wanting to see accurate depiction of the character both from a personality as well as visual standpoint. This is an idealism that shouldn't always be criticized or looked down upon. It's too easy to scream racism at that. But please, by all means carry on with having your head directly up your ass.

 

[Dark Raven]

You're protesting too much; which you can do all you like BUT you picked planet of the apes to get your "point" across...randomly because it was on your TV? How original. I'm not branding people as racists, I'm speaking directly and referring to you alone. The fact is you didn't need to say, "black" in reference because we all know what the root cause of the/your issue is. What you did or didn't intend is irrelevant. The fact of the matter also is there aren't any words to twist. You worded what you wrote with crystal clarity and in doing so painted yourself looking like a racist; linking Zendaya's casting amongst other things to planet of the apes.

I couldn't care less what your ethnicity is. Not relevant; and any moron can decipher I'm not the one dragging race into this nor perpetuating it. Something offensive was said that linked the actress at the centre of this controversy with of all things to compare it to, a film about apes and I called it out.

What you've known him to be is irrelevant. It doesn't take away from the actual words he himself expressed.

I'm not looking way too much into anything. What he may have meant differs from what he actually ended up saying. Perhaps the problem is people like you spend too much time playing instead of being educated on the dynamics of perception. If you don't have a problem nor feel offended with what was said, then good for you; but don't make the mistake of disregarding others not acknowledging that which was said and taking offence.

There's nothing to look for. It's there; written. If you weren't too busy rolling your eyes and got them to focus on the words used, you'd see it; or to be generous, perhaps you need to see an occulist? Or just maybe you dont want to see it. You can acknowledge a discussion that is dominant in conveying ill favour towards a black actress and a comparison to a film about apes and you genuinely can't see why one may find an issue with that? Just how small is your world? But please, by all means carry on with burying your head in the sand.

I am sorry if you feel offended and continue to do so. That however is your choice. I've already explained to you that it was a random example but not only did you refuse to accept that, but you presumed to know what was in my mind and insisted that it was indeed said with malicious intent.

You are like a bull who sees red as soon as he sees the word "apes" in the same thread where people have discussed Zendaya being bi-racial, and it's as if you become so blinded that you immediately equate the two as an offensive remark. But you need to learn to read. I have not mentioned anything in all these posts at all about Zendaya being black. You have merely inferred it because you chose to, or because you want to be inflammatory and make the issue about being black. All this time I have merely discussed making changes from the source material to the point where the character is unrecognisable.

If Marvel were to turn Mary Jane into an Asian female who is socially awkward and frumpy and requires a makeover and whose name isn't even Mary Jane, or even if she had been a white female with all those qualities, she would still be unrecognisable to the point of being a different character.

My point, which you refuse to acknowledge or deliberately choose to overlook, is that I wasn't even talking about Mary Jane or about whether Zendaya is black when I mentioned that one could just take any random film (which, at the time, happened to be whatever was on TV, which was POTA) and point to that and say it is the next Spider-Man film if nothing defines anything anymore (eg if what defines a Spider-Man movie is not his costume, his name, his powers, his supporting cast, being a comic book movie etc). I had no racist intent at all and wasn't even thinking in terms of whether Zendaya is black whatsoever but merely in terms of changing things beyond recognisability, slapping another random name on it and still calling it your movie. If you had any ability to read and follow the previous conversations in the thread, you'd see within the context that what I was talking about and hadn't mentioned anything about race. If you have chosen to infer it on your own from what isn't even there, then that is either due to your own inability to not comprehend things properly or because you deliberately want to turn it into a conversation about racism and to start pointing fingers.

This is all I will say on the matter as I don't need to keep defending what I wrote earlier. You should be aware that branding other people as racists on these boards when it is completely unjustified and where no such racist comment or slur has occurred is not allowed.

I have reported your post a while ago and since then, I haven't replied until now because I've been allowing you to hang yourself by your own noose with each successive post you've made where you've continued to twist my words and brand me a racist. The more you have posted, and the more people have tried to explain to you but you have insisted on making this about race, the more you have been loading one more bullet of ammunition against you as evidence which I can use to show that you are being inflammatory and unreasonable.

Feel free to report my posts as racist if you like. In fact, I hope you do. Because you'll only be making my case even more for me by that very act and tightening the noose around your neck that little bit more.

Alternatively, you can choose to drop this subject as you are the one who has derailed the thread all this time by trying to make the focus about race when at the time, no-one was even discussing that.

 

[Chesterfield]

Except the discussions here don't convey ill favor towards a black actress, they convey ill favor towards the presentation of a character that seemingly has nothing to do with the original depiction. I've pointed out in an earlier comment that Kirsten Dunst "looking the part" didn't make her portrayal of Mary Jane good. The same way Zendaya "not looking the part" isn't the actual problem, it's that the character itself so far doesn't seem to have anything to do with how MJ is like. This isn't racism, Zendaya being black is not a problem for me, and even if some people may not like the fact that Mary Jane is black here, that doesn't make them racist towards the actress playing her, it means they simply want to see their favorites faithfully portrayed on the big screen. There certainly are embarrassing racist fans out there, I don't tend to see that on this board. People don't deserve to be treated like crap for simply wanting to see accurate depiction of the character both from a personality as well as visual standpoint. This is an idealism that shouldn't always be criticized or looked down upon. It's too easy to scream racism at that. But please, by all means carry on with having your head directly up your ass.

If I have my head up my ass as you put it, then it's evidently a lot cleaner and clearer and less full of **** than wherever your head is at. You talk about ill favour regarding the presentation of a character but fail to mention it's mainly stemming from the fact that she's black. You can point out whatever changes bother you as much as you like but guess what; this wasn't about your opinion on the matter that you seem so eager to share. The original post in question aired it's grievances about a variety of changes to the point of being unrecognisable which is fair enough but that's not what the issue is. The point of contention is the statement where he defined and encapsulated the controversy surrounding the actress/character to a film about apes. If you think it's some arbitrary comment on his part, good for you but if youre ignorant to think what was said can't be seen as offensive then more fool you.

 

[Chesterfield]

I am sorry if you feel offended and continue to do so. That however is your choice. I've already explained to you that it was a random example but not only did you refuse to accept that, but you presumed to know what was in my mind and insisted that it was indeed said with malicious intent.

You are like a bull who sees red as soon as he sees the word "apes" in the same thread where people have discussed Zendaya being bi-racial, and it's as if you become so blinded that you immediately equate the two as an offensive remark. But you need to learn to read. I have not mentioned anything in all these posts at all about Zendaya being black. You have merely inferred it because you chose to, or because you want to be inflammatory and make the issue about being black. All this time I have merely discussed making changes from the source material to the point where the character is unrecognisable.

If Marvel were to turn Mary Jane into an Asian female who is socially awkward and frumpy and requires a makeover and whose name isn't even Mary Jane, or even if she had been a white female with all those qualities, she would still be unrecognisable to the point of being a different character.

My point, which you refuse to acknowledge or deliberately choose to overlook, is that I wasn't even talking about Mary Jane or about whether Zendaya is black when I mentioned that one could just take any random film (which, at the time, happened to be whatever was on TV, which was POTA) and point to that and say it is the next Spider-Man film if nothing defines anything anymore (eg if what defines a Spider-Man movie is not his costume, his name, his powers, his supporting cast, being a comic book movie etc). I had no racist intent at all and wasn't even thinking in terms of whether Zendaya is black whatsoever but merely in terms of changing things beyond recognisability, slapping another random name on it and still calling it your movie. If you had any ability to read and follow the previous conversations in the thread, you'd see within the context that what I was talking about and hadn't mentioned anything about race. If you have chosen to infer it on your own from what isn't even there, then that is either due to your own inability to not comprehend things properly or because you deliberately want to turn it into a conversation about racism and to start pointing fingers.

This is all I will say on the matter as I don't need to keep defending what I wrote earlier. You should be aware that branding other people as racists on these boards when it is completely unjustified and where no such racist comment or slur has occurred is not allowed.

I have reported your post a while ago and since then, I haven't replied until now because I've been allowing you to hang yourself by your own noose with each successive post you've made where you've continued to twist my words and brand me a racist. The more you have posted, and the more people have tried to explain to you but you have insisted on making this about race, the more you have been loading one more bullet of ammunition against you as evidence which I can use to show that you are being inflammatory and unreasonable.

Feel free to report my posts as racist if you like. In fact, I hope you do. Because you'll only be making my case even more for me by that very act and tightening the noose around your neck that little bit more.

Alternatively, you can choose to drop this subject as you are the one who has derailed the thread all this time by trying to make the focus about race when at the time, no-one was even discussing that.

The irony of your post is mildly amusing because you feel victimised for being called out about liking the controversy of the actress/character who happens to be black to a film about apes. I'm not trying to derail the thread and I sure as hell didn't bring race into it, that happened long before I posted in here.
I had no intention of reporting you and I still don't. I'm not bothered by your grievances with the characterusation of the character, I have conceded that those are fair issues to point out; but what amazes me and as I've said in my last response to KalvinEllis, is the fact that you can't see how the words YOU used, intentional or not can be seen as offensive. The increasing lack and inability to understand that is a problem in itself. In any case, I accept your apology but I think one can be a bit more mindful in future how to express one's self without carelessly offending others on such matters.

 

[KalvinEllis]

If I have my head up my ass as you put it, then it's evidently a lot cleaner and clearer and less full of **** than wherever your head is at. You talk about ill favour regarding the presentation of a character but fail to mention it's mainly stemming from the fact that she's black. You can point out whatever changes bother you as much as you like but guess what; this wasn't about your opinion on the matter that you seem so eager to share. The original post in question aired it's grievances about a variety of changes to the point of being unrecognisable which is fair enough but that's not what the issue is. The point of contention is the statement where he defined and encapsulated the controversy surrounding the actress/character to a film about apes. If you think it's some arbitrary comment on his part, good for you but if youre ignorant to think what was said can't be seen as offensive then more fool you.

Oh judging by your reaction, it can be seen as offensive by someone, despite that clearly wasn't its purpose, because you don't seem to be able to take that random comment as something other than racist attack. If this was the Jason Momoa thread and someone decided to randomly mention a movie about Native Hawaiian people they just saw on TV, would that necessary mean the person was trying to make a racist comment towards Momoa's Native descent? No, they could just mention it as part of whatever exchange they were having with others throughout the thread. That's all this seems to be.

The "problem" doesn't stem from the fact that Z is black. Cast Bella Thorne, put her in those same clothes Zendaya is seen wearing on the set pics, have her act in a way that's atypical to Mary Jane, give her some random name and people would be just as annoyed. The reasoning behind these reactions is not as one-sided as you seem to think it is.

 

[Chesterfield]

Oh judging by your reaction, it can be seen as offensive by someone, despite that wasn't its purpose, which you continuously chose to ignore, because you don't seem to be able to take a random comment like this as anything other than racist attack. If this was the Jason Momoa thread and someone decided to randomly mention a movie about Native Hawaiian people they just saw on TV, would that necessary mean the person was trying to make a racist comment towards Momoa's Native descent? No, they could just mention it as part of whatever exchange they were having with others throughout the thread. That's all this seems to be.

The "problem" doesn't stem from the fact that Z is black. Cast Bella Thorne, put her in those same clothes Zendaya is seen wearing on the set pics, have her act in a way that's atypical to Mary Jane, give her some random name and people would be just as annoyed. The reasoning behind these reactions is not as one-sided as you seem to think it is.

Like I said, more fool you. Issues surrounding Zendaya's race can be found on the very first page of this thread. Secondly, throughout the thread there's been talk by some people boycotting or being done with the film just because of her race and lack of red hair; thirdly, the Momoa example you gave is beyond weak and doesn't compare to being in the same sphere as the point of contention about race and apes that was made. I dont know what planet you're on or what alternate reality you keep dipping in and out of but please, at least try to pretend to be real about this.

 

[KalvinEllis]

Like I said, more fool you. Issues surrounding Zendaya's race can be found on the very first page of this thread. Secondly, throughout the thread there's been talk by some people boycotting or being done with the film just because of her race and lack of red hair; thirdly, the Momoa example you gave is beyond weak and doesn't compare to being in the same sphere as the point of contention about race and apes that was made. I dont know what planet you're on or what alternate reality you keep dipping in and out of but please, at least try to pretend to be real about this.

1) There's nothing to "pretend" about, you accused someone of racism, who didn't display any particular dismay towards the race of the actress. They just randomly mentioned a movie that happened to be about "apes", which you took and blew out of proportions.

2) Like I mentioned in a previous comment, of course there are people out there who don't like the visual change. Doesn't make them inherently racistr, all they want is accurate portrayal. Hence the example I gave with Dunst's portrayal, who looked the part but was vastly disliked and ridiculed because the role was Mary Jane in name only.

3) There was nothing weak about the Momoa example. Aquaman is originally a very blonde, blue-eyed white character, which couldn't be more different than the way Jason Momoa looks like. Zendaya wasn't remotely compared to an ape in any way, the POTA comment was as random as it gets and didn't mean to offend.

You decided to make a mountain out of a mole hill and I got on your case for it. The only one that seems to be delusional here are you. By all means, I will not disturb your delusions any longer.

 

[Chesterfield]

1) There's nothing to "pretend" about, you accused someone of racism, who didn't display any particular dismay towards the race of the actress. They just randomly mentioned a movie that happened to be about "apes", which you took and blew out of proportions.

Do you even hear yourself? We're in a thread about an actress who has recieved a lot of negative reception in part because of her racial makeup and lack of red hair which a big deal has been made about in this and the previous thread...and yet, "They just randomly mentioned a movie that happened to be about apes" is something you're happy to resign to being blown out of proportion; without giving a modicum of thought and consideration to how such a carelessly structured comment can cause offence. If you had a proper understanding of general racial discourse and the gravity of disparaging connotations about black people and apes perhaps you wouldn't be so ignorant to the concerns and issue one may have about this particular matter. So no, this isn't blowing anything out of proportion but addressing a rather careless and insensitive remark that you are all too happily to dismiss and trivialise.

2) Like I mentioned in a previous comment, of course there are people out there who don't like the visual change. Doesn't make them inherently racistr, all they want is accurate portrayal. Hence the example I gave with Dunst's portrayal, who looked the part but was vastly disliked and ridiculed because the role was Mary Jane in name only.

And you're telling me this because? This has never been an issue and as I have repeatedly told you not a point of contention.

3) There was nothing weak about the Momoa example. Aquaman is originally a very blonde, blue-eyed white character, which couldn't be more different than the way Jason Momoa looks like. Zendaya wasn't remotely compared to an ape in any way, the POTA comment was as random as it gets and didn't mean to offend.

The Momoa example is weak because there's no historic or institutional precedence of derogatory racial inference, oppression and persecution about Hawaiins; compared to what blacks have endured and been likened to. The disparity couldn't be more further apart.

You decided to make a mountain out of a mole hill and I got on your case for it. The only one that seems to be delusional here are you. By all means, I will not disturb your delusions any longer.

I addressed an issue that I had a problem with. You're the one who's delusional if you think just because it's trivial to your sensibilities that it makes it a trivial matter. No. It does not; but what it does do is highlight how pathalogically clueless you are on matters of race and discriminatory social practices.

 

[KalvinEllis]

Do you even hear yourself? We're in a thread about an actress who has recieved a lot of negative reception in part because of her racial makeup and lack of red hair which a big deal has been made about in this and the previous thread...and yet, "They just randomly mentioned a movie that happened to be about apes" is something you're happy to resign to being blown out of proportion; without giving a modicum of thought and consideration to how such a carelessly structured comment can cause offence. If you had a proper understanding of general racial discourse and the gravity of disparaging connotations about black people and apes perhaps you wouldn't be so ignorant to the concerns and issue one may have about this particular matter. So no, this isn't blowing anything out of proportion but addressing a rather careless and insensitive remark that you are all too happily to dismiss and trivialise.

Sigh. The specific person you decided to go after did not disrespect the actress for her skin color. He was merely talking about how unrecognizable any character or movie would be if you slap a familiar name or title on them and have it completely not resemble that character or brand. If you believe the example he randomly gave was careless, fine, but clearly it didn't mean to offend. It's not dismissing, it's pointing out why it's not right to scream racism about it.

And you're telling me this because? This has never been an issue and as I have repeatedly told you not a point of contention.

As a reminder that all the arguing here doesn't stem just from Zendaya's skin tone.

The Momoa example is weak because there's no historic or institutional precedence of derogatory racial inference, oppression and persecution about Hawaiins; compared to what blacks have endured and been likened to. The disparity couldn't be more further apart.

If we're applying your logic concerning the historical aspect, then yes. What I did was simply compare one actor who doesn't look the part to another actor who also doesn't look the part. Both actors look differently from the characters they portray and in both cases you can have someone make a random remark that you see as offensive, when it wasn't actually meant to be offensive at all.

I addressed an issue that I had a problem with. You're the one who's delusional if you think just because it's trivial to your sensibilities that it makes it a trivial matter. No. It does not; but what it does do is highlight how pathalogically clueless you are on matters of race and discriminatory social practices.

Not trivializing anything about discrimination, all that happened here is you rushed to call somebody a racist, when that person wasn't acting like a racist, that's it.

 

[ernesth100]

I don't get it. Zendeya's skin isn't actually black. Her race is(sort of as her parents are black(dad) and white(mom). But her skin could, in a fair world, be considered white. If I had no background I'd assume she was white at first glance. :/

So, whats the REAL issue here? Cause the more I think the less I think it's really race.

 

[Oscorp]

My issue is how they seem to portray the character. But it's a case of wait and see.

 

[ItchyWebShooter]

Yeah I know, I was just hoping they'd do something different and have her introduced later.

Ah well, doesn't matter much. I just hope they don't turn her into a black Carlie Cooper! haha.

(P.S I'm not being racist. I'm half black myself.)

I wouldn't even mind seeing Carlie Cooper over an unrecognizable MJ, but we don't know for certain whether she'll be unrecognizable. Still a lot of speculation over here.

Also I think it's sad that we have to qualify every statement in this thread. Being unhappy with the portrayal of a character doesn't make you a racist.

I said the other day that I could almost see them even cutting the big "reveal/twist" scene from the film altogether

I'd be extremely disappointed. Don't change the film because some ***hat spoiled the twist, give us the original movie you wanted us to see.

Except the discussions here don't convey ill favor towards a black actress, they convey ill favor towards the presentation of a character that seemingly has nothing to do with the original depiction. I've pointed out in an earlier comment that Kirsten Dunst "looking the part" didn't make her portrayal of Mary Jane good. The same way Zendaya "not looking the part" isn't the actual problem, it's that the character itself so far doesn't seem to have anything to do with how MJ is like. This isn't racism, Zendaya being black is not a problem for me, and even if some people may not like the fact that Mary Jane is black here, that doesn't make them racist towards the actress playing her, it means they simply want to see their favorites faithfully portrayed on the big screen. There certainly are embarrassing racist fans out there, I don't tend to see that on this board. People don't deserve to be treated like crap for simply wanting to see accurate depiction of the character both from a personality as well as visual standpoint. This is an idealism that shouldn't always be criticized or looked down upon. It's too easy to scream racism at that. But please, by all means carry on with having your head directly up your ass.

I am sorry if you feel offended and continue to do so. That however is your choice. I've already explained to you that it was a random example but not only did you refuse to accept that, but you presumed to know what was in my mind and insisted that it was indeed said with malicious intent.

You are like a bull who sees red as soon as he sees the word "apes" in the same thread where people have discussed Zendaya being bi-racial, and it's as if you become so blinded that you immediately equate the two as an offensive remark. But you need to learn to read. I have not mentioned anything in all these posts at all about Zendaya being black. You have merely inferred it because you chose to, or because you want to be inflammatory and make the issue about being black. All this time I have merely discussed making changes from the source material to the point where the character is unrecognisable.

If Marvel were to turn Mary Jane into an Asian female who is socially awkward and frumpy and requires a makeover and whose name isn't even Mary Jane, or even if she had been a white female with all those qualities, she would still be unrecognisable to the point of being a different character.

My point, which you refuse to acknowledge or deliberately choose to overlook, is that I wasn't even talking about Mary Jane or about whether Zendaya is black when I mentioned that one could just take any random film (which, at the time, happened to be whatever was on TV, which was POTA) and point to that and say it is the next Spider-Man film if nothing defines anything anymore (eg if what defines a Spider-Man movie is not his costume, his name, his powers, his supporting cast, being a comic book movie etc). I had no racist intent at all and wasn't even thinking in terms of whether Zendaya is black whatsoever but merely in terms of changing things beyond recognisability, slapping another random name on it and still calling it your movie. If you had any ability to read and follow the previous conversations in the thread, you'd see within the context that what I was talking about and hadn't mentioned anything about race. If you have chosen to infer it on your own from what isn't even there, then that is either due to your own inability to not comprehend things properly or because you deliberately want to turn it into a conversation about racism and to start pointing fingers.

This is all I will say on the matter as I don't need to keep defending what I wrote earlier. You should be aware that branding other people as racists on these boards when it is completely unjustified and where no such racist comment or slur has occurred is not allowed.

I have reported your post a while ago and since then, I haven't replied until now because I've been allowing you to hang yourself by your own noose with each successive post you've made where you've continued to twist my words and brand me a racist. The more you have posted, and the more people have tried to explain to you but you have insisted on making this about race, the more you have been loading one more bullet of ammunition against you as evidence which I can use to show that you are being inflammatory and unreasonable.

Feel free to report my posts as racist if you like. In fact, I hope you do. Because you'll only be making my case even more for me by that very act and tightening the noose around your neck that little bit more.

Alternatively, you can choose to drop this subject as you are the one who has derailed the thread all this time by trying to make the focus about race when at the time, no-one was even discussing that.

Seriously, I'm thinking of ducking out of this thread because this crap is unbearable, but I think these points are as "salient" as you're gonna get. There's no reason to trash someone as a CONFIRMED RACIST PIG because they're unhappy with a character's portrayal in ways that go much deeper than race. Planet of the Apes was clearly an unfortunate, ill-considered comparison to make. I think we can safely stop the accusations there. Especially considering the post in question was targeted far more to the other attributes of the character that we think we know rather than just her race.

This has been a fun and interesting thread to participate in so far, and I'd like to think we could keep it that way. But I'll have to bug out for awhile if we can't come to some kind of sense on this subject. Let's stop bandying the word racist about when we don't know motivations of other posters.

(Apologies if this is out of bounds territory as far as moderators etc. go, just my 2 cents on the issue at hand)

 

[obredaan]

She doesn't have her signature red hair. Yeah, she can dye it, but that's different from the character having red hair by default. It's like Clark Kent being a natural blond but dying his hair black when he gets a job at the Planet. Or Peter being blond at first, then dying his hair brown after the spider bit. Not quite the same as if that was the character's natural hair color.

They had to dye Leto's hair green to play the Joker...did it bother you that his natural hair wasn't green?

 

[PeterBenParker]

I'd be extremely disappointed. Don't change the film because some ***hat spoiled the twist, give us the original movie you wanted us to see.

Yeah. It was bad enough that MJ was cut due to fanboy nonsense in TASM2 and now she could be cut/altered because the twist was revealed by some d-bag scooper who has sour grapes over Sony.

I just want Mary Jane back in the Spider-Man films. Is that so much to ask for?

 

[Oscorp]

They had to dye Leto's hair green to play the Joker...did it bother you that his natural hair wasn't green?

I think he means that the character would dye her hair red instead of having it from the get go, because we've seen Zendaya on set pictures with brown hair.

 

[X Knight]

I don't get it. Zendeya's skin isn't actually black. Her race is(sort of as her parents are black(dad) and white(mom). But her skin could, in a fair world, be considered white. If I had no background I'd assume she was white at first glance. :/

So, whats the REAL issue here? Cause the more I think the less I think it's really race.

the "real" issue here is that the actual character seems to be changed.

Gunn himself nailed what the core of MJ's character should be - alpha female playfulness.

A playful alpha female does NOT dress down, all buttoned up like, looking all plain and frumpy and meh. That look and style of dress does not convey a playful alpha female type character.

A playful alpha female character also doesn't fit the following description: "quiet, super dry, awkward, head always in a book." That description is like the total opposite of playful alpha female.

Notice I didn't discuss the issue of race or skin color in any of that.

that's because all of the above would apply if MJ were white with red hair.

A plain, frumpy looking girl who's quiet, awkward, dry, and bookish does not fit the character type of a playful alpha female - regardless of her race or skin color.

that's the real issue here. the core, the spirit of the character, which everyone says is the most important, is seemingly being changed. and changed to the point where the character looks and feels unrecognizable, where her character type has been changed to almost the complete opposite.

and this doesn't even get into the name issue. where the character may actually be called by a different name "Michelle" for most of the film. where she may suddenly go by her "real name" of MJ by the end of the film. where Michelle may be a middle name she uses because she's "ashamed" of her real name. or, where her real name may actually be Michelle J-something, hence MJ, without actually being named Mary Jane.

that would be like Peter going by Benjamin or Steven for most of the film, only to reveal his real name of Peter by the end.

that would be stupid and make no sense!

 

[X Knight]

They had to dye Leto's hair green to play the Joker...did it bother you that his natural hair wasn't green?

I think he means that the character would dye her hair red instead of having it from the get go, because we've seen Zendaya on set pictures with brown hair.

yeah. that's not the point. Green hair does not exist in real life. so you HAVE to dye your hair green in order to get that color.

this is a better example.

Peter Parker has brown/dark hair. That's how he's traditionally been portrayed. That's his "classic" look.

Now, let's say, Homecoming Peter is actually blond. After the spider bit, he wants to change his look to go with his newfound powers. So, he dyes his hair brown. Now, he looks like classic Peter - how he's supposed to look. But, he had to achieve that look by dying his hair, instead of having that naturally.

Do you see that point?

If they actually did that to Peter, Spidey fans would probably call that so stupid and convoluted. They'd ask ( and rightfully so ) "Why not just make him a brunette from the start?"

Same question here. Why not just give MJ red hair from the start?

 

[ItchyWebShooter]

Yeah. It was bad enough that MJ was cut due to fanboy nonsense in TASM2 and now she could be cut/altered because the twist was revealed by some d-bag scooper who has sour grapes over Sony.

I just want Mary Jane back in the Spider-Man films. Is that so much to ask for?

Exactly!

 

[ItchyWebShooter]

Same question here. Why not just give MJ red hair from the start?

I'm playing the waiting game before going too far overboard on my fanboy rage stuff, but I would have liked to see red hair.

 

[X Knight]

I am sorry if you feel offended and continue to do so. That however is your choice. I've already explained to you that it was a random example but not only did you refuse to accept that, but you presumed to know what was in my mind and insisted that it was indeed said with malicious intent.

You are like a bull who sees red as soon as he sees the word "apes" in the same thread where people have discussed Zendaya being bi-racial, and it's as if you become so blinded that you immediately equate the two as an offensive remark. But you need to learn to read. I have not mentioned anything in all these posts at all about Zendaya being black. You have merely inferred it because you chose to, or because you want to be inflammatory and make the issue about being black. All this time I have merely discussed making changes from the source material to the point where the character is unrecognisable.

If Marvel were to turn Mary Jane into an Asian female who is socially awkward and frumpy and requires a makeover and whose name isn't even Mary Jane, or even if she had been a white female with all those qualities, she would still be unrecognisable to the point of being a different character.

My point, which you refuse to acknowledge or deliberately choose to overlook, is that I wasn't even talking about Mary Jane or about whether Zendaya is black when I mentioned that one could just take any random film (which, at the time, happened to be whatever was on TV, which was POTA) and point to that and say it is the next Spider-Man film if nothing defines anything anymore (eg if what defines a Spider-Man movie is not his costume, his name, his powers, his supporting cast, being a comic book movie etc). I had no racist intent at all and wasn't even thinking in terms of whether Zendaya is black whatsoever but merely in terms of changing things beyond recognisability, slapping another random name on it and still calling it your movie. If you had any ability to read and follow the previous conversations in the thread, you'd see within the context that what I was talking about and hadn't mentioned anything about race. If you have chosen to infer it on your own from what isn't even there, then that is either due to your own inability to not comprehend things properly or because you deliberately want to turn it into a conversation about racism and to start pointing fingers.

This is all I will say on the matter as I don't need to keep defending what I wrote earlier. You should be aware that branding other people as racists on these boards when it is completely unjustified and where no such racist comment or slur has occurred is not allowed.

I have reported your post a while ago and since then, I haven't replied until now because I've been allowing you to hang yourself by your own noose with each successive post you've made where you've continued to twist my words and brand me a racist. The more you have posted, and the more people have tried to explain to you but you have insisted on making this about race, the more you have been loading one more bullet of ammunition against you as evidence which I can use to show that you are being inflammatory and unreasonable.

Feel free to report my posts as racist if you like. In fact, I hope you do. Because you'll only be making my case even more for me by that very act and tightening the noose around your neck that little bit more.

Alternatively, you can choose to drop this subject as you are the one who has derailed the thread all this time by trying to make the focus about race when at the time, no-one was even discussing that.