Homecoming The Zendaya is possibly someone, maybe thread - Part 3

[X Knight]

I'm just curious...how would you guys feel if Marvel made Miles Morales Spider-Man instead of Peter Parker? Let's just say a completely comic accurate Miles.

Would you hate it because it's not Peter Parker, or would you be totally okay with it because you're familiar with Miles already and Marvel made him exactly like the comics?

I, personally, wouldn't have much interest in seeing it, because I don't have much interest in the character. To me, there's only one Spider-Man and that's Peter Parker.

however, if they had decided to go that route, and they made it comic accurate as you said, then I'd have no problem with them doing it. I just wouldn't go see it.

at least it would be more comic accurate for the character, and not this weird mish-mash we seem to be getting with Homecoming.

 

[Kurenai]

Don't y'all have a spoiler thread, what's the point of one if some of y'all pretend posters don't have eyes and can't read the spoilers or what you're inferring, nothing should be in a spoiler tag or behind a black strike when a whole thread exists for you discuss...

 

[spideyboy_1111]

I'm just curious...how would you guys feel if Marvel made Miles Morales Spider-Man instead of Peter Parker? Let's just say a completely comic accurate Miles.

Would you hate it because it's not Peter Parker, or would you be totally okay with it because you're familiar with Miles already and Marvel made him exactly like the comics?

i couldn't hate it.. unless they gave him all of Peter's villains and supporting cast.. which ironically they sorta did with giving Miles story to Peter.......

but id still be pining for Peter Parker and his world.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

The article doesn't say Sony had complete creative control, .
It says Pascal was instrumental in key decisions such as the casting of Tom Holland.

the article implies quite a bit that Sony had far more control than we thought

 

[Shikamaru]

To be fair, MJ being a miserable loner *is* accurate to 616 MJ.

The difference is that 616 hid her pain through the party girl facade. She acted as if she were happier than she really was, but in reality wore a mask her whole life the same way Peter did.

However, if Michelle already appears like the real MJ on the outside, I think that robs her of her character's complexity.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

To be fair, MJ being a miserable loner *is* accurate to 616 MJ.

The difference is that 616 hid her pain through the party girl facade. She acted as if she were happier than she really was, but in reality wore a mask her whole life the same way Peter did.

However, if Michelle already appears like the real MJ on the outside, I think that robs her of her character's complexity.

i concur.. 616 mj has layers...

 

[X Knight]

To be fair, MJ being a miserable loner *is* accurate to 616 MJ.

The difference is that 616 hid her pain through the party girl facade. She acted as if she were happier than she really was, but in reality wore a mask her whole life the same way Peter did.

However, if Michelle already appears like the real MJ on the outside, I think that robs her of her character's complexity.

i concur.. 616 mj has layers...

and that's the approach they should have taken here. that's what I want to see.

we got a hint of that in the Raimi films, but it was never fully explored.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

I don't think anyone is expecting a bombshell supermodel at all. But why does she have to be an ugly duckling either? There are girls in their teens who already try to look as attractive as possible and even try to make themselves look as grown up as possible. People use Instagram these days to post all their pictures which often look just like model shoots. They even sometimes get discovered via those means later on and picked up by a professional agency.

As a modern spin, Mary Jane could've been an aspiring model who posts tons of pics on Instagram because she loves the attention and feels that it validates her sense of self worth (because maybe she didn't get that as a child) and makes her feel attractive and wanted.

It's really ignoring what girls are very often like in real life to say you can't expect them to be "bombshell supermodels" at 15 when there's social media like Instagram where many are trying to do that.

And that is MJ's personality where she would want to be on that kind of social media. The Michelle MJ, however, seems like she wouldn't even want to do any of that and would actively shun and mock this kind of thing. How do you expect that later she would want to become the very thing she has ridiculed before after going through a physical transformation? That means for the rest of the new Spider-Man series, if she does physically become MJ, she's never actually being true to who she is at all but living a lie and putting up a front, when her Michelle persona in Homecoming was her true self.

And that's the exact opposite of Mary Jane, who put on a front as a defence mechanism but both we as the readers and also Peter AND Mary Jane herself began to discover her true self as being someone who isn't so flighty and superficial.

So we're going to get an MJ who now lives life as a lie once she physically transforms and become this fake persona? But then what? She's supposed to undergo an arc again to become her true self and turn back into the frumpy bookish and socially awkward Michelle again one day after realising that MJ was just a front for her? And if she doesn't undergo this unnecessary arc again, then that means that Peter himself also looks completely superficial because he only accepts her not as she is but only once she transforms from the ugly duckling into the beautiful swan.

This just comes across as all wrong and makes everyone look bad. And it doesn't even fit in with the John Hughes themes where it would be more about accepting oneself as they truly are and not putting on a front for others. Mary Jane as the superficial party girl to start with only to later show that she is much deeper would be far more in line with Hughes than this ridiculous journey that Michelle has to go through.

DR... You, uh, seem to have a lot of insight into what you consider to be "bombshell" 15 year olds.

Maybe... Maybe don't announce that to the world?

 

[X Knight]

15 year old MJ in hs doesn't have to be a "bombshell model" like adult MJ, but she has to be pretty and beautiful and fashionable.

Look at Liz in this film, she's not a "bombshell model" but she's pretty and fashionable. That's what hs MJ should be.

MJ in the Spectacular cartoon was close to the 616 version without being a "bombshell model." But she was definitely pretty and attractive and flirty and liked to dance and party and have fun. That's the approach to take with hs version of 616 MJ.

even Zendaya herself is a model/cover girl at her young age. Not saying hs MJ has to be a model/covergirl at 15, but she has to be pretty and attractive and someone who you could see as a covergirl/model in a few years when she's 18 or 20 or whatever.

 

[Surfer]

Just some thoughts. In High School and College especially most people's reasoning for trying to be attractive would be to look good for the opposite sex. So, maybe Zendaya as Michelle has been at an age where she hasn't cared to impress anyone, which seems evident in the way she dresses kind of Frumpy. However, maybe during Homecoming she starts liking Peter and by the end of the Movie it gives her motivation to want to be more attractive to him instead of someone he has put in the friend zone. Zendaya herself is a beautiful girl it is just the way they are trying to present her in the movie that does her no justice. However, what if dressing more attractive for Peter in Home Coming 2 not only gets her noticed by Peter, but gets her noticed by someone that says she would be perfect for an Acting part, starting her career as an Actress. Then perhaps they will suggest she change her name as an Actress to Mary Jane as it is more relatable. People changing their names in Hollywood is not that uncommon, so just at thought.

Surfer

 

[X Knight]

Just some thoughts. In High School and College especially most people's reasoning for trying to be attractive would be to look good for the opposite sex. So, maybe Zendaya as Michelle has been at an age where she hasn't cared to impress anyone, which seems evident in the way she dresses kind of Frumpy. However, maybe during Homecoming she starts liking Peter and by the end of the Movie it gives her motivation to want to be more attractive to him instead of someone he has put in the friend zone. Zendaya herself is a beautiful girl it is just the way they are trying to present her in the movie that does her no justice. However, what if dressing more attractive for Peter in Home Coming 2 not only gets her noticed by Peter, but gets her noticed by someone that says she would be perfect for an Acting part, starting her career as an Actress. Then perhaps they will suggest she change her name as an Actress to Mary Jane as it is more relatable. People changing their names in Hollywood is not that uncommon, so just at thought.

Surfer

that's all possible, I guess.

but that's not the character. that's creating a story arc that's convoluted and not needed to try to get the character to how she's "supposed" to be.

it also sends the wrong message ( guys only are interested if you look and dress attractive ). it also completely misses the entire point of MJ's story arc ( she creates the carefree party girl as a facade to hide her troubled homelife ).

when they simply could have made her Mary Jane to begin with.

Mary Jane isn't some stage name. It's the character's real name.

If you are so "afraid" or "ashamed" or "reluctant" or whatever reason to use the character's real name, then why even use the character ( or the character's initials in this case )?

It's like Mary Jane Watson has become the Voldemort of the Marvel universe - she who must not be named.

Sometimes, the simplest solution is the best.

If you are going to make the character "MJ" she should have been Mary Jane Watson from the start.

none of this coy, convoluted, twisting in knots nonsense with Michelle.

you either use Mary Jane Watson or you don't.

you either create an original character called Michelle or you don't.

don't try to combine the two because it does a disservice to both.

Mary Jane Watson is Mary Jane Watson. period.

She is not Michelle Mary Jane Watson. She is not Michelle J something who changes her name to Mary Jane as a stage name.

Peter Parker is Peter Parker. Not Paul Parker the dumb hs jock who discovers a love science in hs and changes his name to Peter because it sounds smarter.

Harry Osborn is Harry Osborn. Not Henry Osborn who changes his name to Harry to rebel against his father.

 

[Surfer]

that's all possible, I guess.

but that's not the character. that's creating a story arc that's convoluted and not needed to try to get the character to how she's "supposed" to be.

it also sends the wrong message ( guys only are interested if you look and dress attractive ). it also completely misses the entire point of MJ's story arc ( she creates the carefree party girl as a facade to hide her troubled homelife ).

when they simply could have made her Mary Jane to begin with.

Mary Jane isn't some stage name. It's the character's real name.

If you are so "afraid" or "ashamed" or "reluctant" or whatever reason to use the character's real name, then why even use the character ( or the character's initials in this case )?

It's like Mary Jane Watson has become the Voldemort of the Marvel universe - she who must not be named.

Sometimes, the simplest solution is the best.

If you are going to make the character "MJ" she should have been Mary Jane Watson from the start.

none of this coy, convoluted, twisting in knots nonsense with Michelle.

you either use Mary Jane Watson or you don't.

you either create an original character called Michelle or you don't.

don't try to combine the two because it does a disservice to both.

Mary Jane Watson is Mary Jane Watson. period.

She is not Michelle Mary Jane Watson. She is not Michelle J something who changes her name to Mary Jane as a stage name.

I agree it could be viewed as sending the wrong message to Girls and Women and even Boys and Men that being attractive is all that matters. However, I would be lying if I said that is not very much the way that society operates especially during the years of being a teenager. Also, you are correct they could have made her Mary Jane to begin with, but Marvel seems to like surprising audiences. If she was the Mary Jane that everyone knows to begin with then there is no surprise. I am not saying it is the right decision, but only a reason why they may have choose this path. Also, it might be said it could give the character a larger Arc. She does not start as the person she will become. I am not saying I disagree with you mind you, I am just saying this is their first outing and if she is Mary Jane, there is still opportunity for her to become the Mary Jane we all know and love from the comics.

Surfer

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Just some thoughts. In High School and College especially most people's reasoning for trying to be attractive would be to look good for the opposite sex. So, maybe Zendaya as Michelle has been at an age where she hasn't cared to impress anyone, which seems evident in the way she dresses kind of Frumpy. However, maybe during Homecoming she starts liking Peter and by the end of the Movie it gives her motivation to want to be more attractive to him instead of someone he has put in the friend zone. Zendaya herself is a beautiful girl it is just the way they are trying to present her in the movie that does her no justice. However, what if dressing more attractive for Peter in Home Coming 2 not only gets her noticed by Peter, but gets her noticed by someone that says she would be perfect for an Acting part, starting her career as an Actress. Then perhaps they will suggest she change her name as an Actress to Mary Jane as it is more relatable. People changing their names in Hollywood is not that uncommon, so just at thought.

Surfer

contrived reasonings... and fluff not needed.

 

[X Knight]

I agree it could be viewed as sending the wrong message to Girls and Women and even Boys and Men that being attractive is all that matters. However, I would be lying if I said that is not very much the way that society operates especially during the years of being a teenager. Also, you are correct they could have made her Mary Jane to begin with, but Marvel seems to like surprising audiences. If she was the Mary Jane that everyone knows to begin with then there is no surprise. I am not saying it is the right decision, but only a reason why they may have choose this path. Also, it might be said it could give the character a larger Arc. She does not start as the person she will become. I am not saying I disagree with you mind you, I am just saying this is their first outing and if she is Mary Jane, there is still opportunity for her to become the Mary Jane we all know and love from the comics.

Surfer

I get what you are saying, too.

I just feel like we shouldn't have to go through a long complicated convoluted storyline to get the Mary Jane "we all know and love."

classic 616 MJ, who creates the carefree party girl image as a facade to hide a troubled homelife, has enough complexity and layers to create a deep, long story arc that can be explored throughout several films. Just do an adaptation of that and stay true to the basic essence of the character, without having to drastically change the character.

and even if they do the "ugly duck to hot" She's All That type transformation arc, and she becomes the MJ we all know and love later on, why the need to use her a different name and call her Michelle?

why not simply call her Mary Jane from the start?

it's just.......I'm not venting my frustrations at you. I'm just venting at the whole situation.

why make something so complicated for the sake of being "different."

I felt they did that in the TASM films, by including the parents backstory and butchering the origin story, they made the whole thing needlessly complex for the sake of being different.

And now, they seem to be doing the same thing here, except for MJ.

sometimes, the best way to get from point A to point B is to go from.....point A to Point B.

not A to D to Z to T to C to F to J to B.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

I agree it could be viewed as sending the wrong message to Girls and Women and even Boys and Men that being attractive is all that matters. However, I would be lying if I said that is not very much the way that society operates especially during the years of being a teenager. Also, you are correct they could have made her Mary Jane to begin with, but Marvel seems to like surprising audiences. If she was the Mary Jane that everyone knows to begin with then there is no surprise. I am not saying it is the right decision, but only a reason why they may have choose this path. Also, it might be said it could give the character a larger Arc. She does not start as the person she will become. I am not saying I disagree with you mind you, I am just saying this is their first outing and if she is Mary Jane, there is still opportunity for her to become the Mary Jane we all know and love from the comics.

Surfer

they should be surprising us with villains.. not love interests and supporting cast.. only acceptable "surprise" is Jameson and the bugle

 

[Surfer]

If Zendaya is Mary Jane, I am not saying I am happy with the changes. I am simply stating they may have gone this route so they could surprise people and to give the character a larger arc. I was also just trying to point out a way they could try to make the current character come full circle to be the Mary Jane we all know from the comics. Me personally I wish they lead with the character from the comics as I tend to be more of a comic purist. For example I hated what they did with the Mandarin in Iron Man 3, and to me the retconing in All Hail the King and the hope of getting a real Mandarin in a Iron Man 4 is the only reason I can still watch that movie. So, I see the Michelle / MJ / Mary Jane thing as a very similar situation where they are trying to surprise the audience. Once again not a fan myself of when they change the lore, but unlike the Mandarin situation they would be moving towards the character rather then away from the character. So, I guess if she does end up being MJ then I am just trying to look at best case scenario of how they can take what she is now and turn her into the character we all love from the comics. I am not saying it is not a disappointment, but at this point the film is what it is, so yes we can be upset by it, but there is no changing the starting point. So I am just saying if her starting point is set and it's a lemon then I am trying to figure out how they can take it and make it into lemonade. Anyways, just my thoughts.

Surfer

 

[AlluAllu]

Whatever happens with Michelle, I hope that she stays like she is in this film. I like how she doesn't seem to care if she is pretty or not.

 

[X Knight]

If Zendaya is Mary Jane, I am not saying I am happy with the changes. I am simply stating they may have gone this route so they could surprise people and to give the character a larger arc. I was also just trying to point out a way they could try to make the current character come full circle to be the Mary Jane we all know from the comics. Me personally I wish they lead with the character from the comics as I tend to be more of a comic purist. For example I hated what they did with the Mandarin in Iron Man 3, and to me the retconing in All Hail the King and the hope of getting a real Mandarin in a Iron Man 4 is the only reason I can still watch that movie. So, I see the Michelle / MJ / Mary Jane thing as a very similar situation where they are trying to surprise the audience. Once again not a fan myself of when they change the lore, but unlike the Mandarin situation they would be moving towards the character rather then away from the character. So, I guess if she does end up being MJ then I am just trying to look at best case scenario of how they can take what she is now and turn her into the character we all love from the comics. I am not saying it is not a disappointment, but at this point the film is what it is, so yes we can be upset by it, but there is no changing the starting point. So I am just saying if her starting point is set and it's a lemon then I am trying to figure out how they can take it and make it into lemonade. Anyways, just my thoughts.

Surfer

oh, I get you.

and I suppose if that's the push-comes-shove, worst-case scenario, I guess I could get behind such a scenario.

but they'd have to do one hell of a job to convince me and get me on board.

cuz right now, it's not looking so good.

Whatever happens with Michelle, I hope that she stays like she is in this film. I like how she doesn't seem to care if she is pretty or not.

and if they do that, they should just keep her as original character Michelle, where they are free to do whatever they want with the character.

because not caring if you're pretty or not, not bothering with makeup or how you dress, that is not Mary Jane MJ Watson at all.

it's counter to her character.

it's like a smart character ( like Peter ) not caring about studying or being smart.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Whatever happens with Michelle, I hope that she stays like she is in this film. I like how she doesn't seem to care if she is pretty or not.

i find that a powerful message i quite like.. but not a message i want for Mj

 

[Spider-man95]

i find that a powerful message i quite like.. but not a message i want for Mj

Agreed. Which is why she should've just been an original character. This aspect could of made Michelle a likable and relatable character.

 

[Arachnerd]

Maybe the general audience will respond better to a familiar nickname that also teases future relationship for the characters? Which means that Marvel will make more money? I don't know. I'm trying to make sense of this and I think that this theory is believable.

I'm not very familiar with Zilla/Godzilla thing, but I do believe that naming the movie Godzilla did get people to the theater, because they recognized it.

I'm not sure if the fans of the source material make a huge difference in box office when it comes to movie adaptations or certain remakes.

Edit: Spideyboy_1111 below is correct. I forgot that financially this is Sony's movie.

Naming the movie Godzilla did indeed get people to theaters, but for all the wrong reasons. Regardless of whether it was a Godzilla film or not, it still was a crap film in general. If you're going to adapt something, you can make all the updates you want but the core elements at least have to stay. Godzilla's are: he breathes atomic fire; is the size of a skycraper; is indestructible to any of mankind's weapons. Zilla had none of these qualities. None.

I'd even argue that while the Gareth Edwards movie was flawed, at least it got those core elements right while adding a bit more to his character.

This whole ordeal with Michelle is set on taking her to she's supposed to be, but obviously they'd have to use the 'swan transformation' cliche to make it happen, and that is an old atrocious cliche that is absolutely not needed. Especially with MJ.

Either make Michelle a separate character, or actually use Zendaya's skills to portray an actual Mary Jane Watson. She seems to have the spunk and personality for it from what I've seen of her in interviews, so why make this mindboggling change? Whether MCU movies are more intended towards the general audience or not, it's still a facepalmingly stupid decision to take any modern film character in this direction, especially female in this day and age.

 

[SpideyJJ]

exactly.

I want to see the characters I'm familiar with. the characters I grew up reading or watching on tv or playing in games.

my problem with Homecoming, and why I have practically non-existent hype for it a mere week from release, is because nothing about it looks familiar aside from Peter/Spidey ( and even that is somewhat shaky with the tech suit and Stark influence ).

Like I've said before, if I knew nothing at all about this, and I looked at the set pics, that pic of the hs kids in front of the locker, or watched any of the trailers, I would be asking "Who the heck are these people?" "Where's Flash and the gang?" "Where's MJ? Where's Harry or Gwen?"

Now, with Gwen, I'd think the blonde girl is Gwen, because y'know she looks like her. But then if I do some digging and find she's actually BETTY, I'd be like wtf??!!

and that's my reaction in general. wtf??!!

I don't recognize anything or anyone.

I get they have to do something different. I get they have to make changes. I get they may not want to do a retread of a linear origin story.

I get all that. and I'm fine with it. I ( and I'm sure the other "critics" here ) don't expect 100% faithfulness and accuracy. I expect changes, though I'd like it to be as faithful and accurate as possible.

But, I also expect a degree of familiarity. There are certain core, basic tenets and principles that I expect these characters to adhere to. Otherwise, they might as well be different characters.

When I see a Superman movie or read a Superman story, I expect certain elements to be present and I expect Clark/Superman ( and his supporting cast and world ) to act and look a certain way. Sure, a writer could make Superman a degenerate, womanizing alcoholic who wears a wifebeater and jeans for a costume and swears like a drunken sailor. Heck, it may even be a compelling story. But, that's not any kind of Superman story I'd be interested in, cuz that character isn't Clark/Superman.

Sure, Peter Parker could be a hs jock who's dumb as a ******* brick and then gets his spider powers and becomes a star professional athlete. Oh sure, he's still called Peter Parker and he has all the spider powers. But, is that Peter Parker/Spider-Man? No, it isn't.

Just like a Tony Stark who's a lowly janitor who stumbles upon a secret lab with the Iron Man armor and tech isn't Tony Stark/Iron Man. That's just not who he is and that's not his story.

Or a Wolverine who's some charming, suave, dashing Robin Hood like rogue who's polite, refined, enjoys opera, and never drinks or smokes. Is that Wolverine even though he's still called Logan/Wolverine and has metal claws? No, it isn't.

Sure, you can write these characters any way you want. But if you make so many changes that they become unrecognizable and unfamiliar, then you've crossed the line and essentially made an original character.

Which brings us back to Michelle/MJ.

Michelle's situation is different from the changes they've made to Flash, Gwetty, Ned/Ganke, May, etc., because she IS an original character. She looks nothing like Mary Jane Watson; she acts nothing like Mary Jane Watson. And here's the real kicker, she doesn't even have the right name. She's not even Mary Jane Watson. She's Michelle.

And that's fine, if they just kept her as Michelle the original character.

But no, for some unfathomable reason, they decide to give her the iconic nickname/initials of Mary Jane Watson and make Michelle "MJ." Which in turn, lessens the chance that the real Mary Jane Watson will be used in this franchise.

so, not only has this original character Michelle "robbed" Mary Jane Watson of her nickname/initials, she's also most likely robbed Mary Jane Watson of her appearance in these films.

and that's a double slap, a double insult to all of us Mary Jane Watson fans who HAVE been wanting a more faithful adaptation of the character.

Michelle is basically an impostor, a usurper.

And that's just it. The spirit of the characters are what's most important, & next to Batman Spidey had the most iconic supporting cast. There were so many diverse characters from Peter's world not yet seen on the big screen that could have been used (TSSM did this brilliantly) that could have given the movie diversity & fresh faces for the GA/Critics with some Spidey fatigue as well as appeased/excited comic fans. Instead they're just mixing the characters up because 'lol differentiate from what's done before' (apparently that includes parts of the comics).

I made a similar post a few weeks ago in response to someone who said we should wait for the movie, because the movie could turn out great (can't remember who). My argument was that, it could be a good movie, heck it could even be a great movie (Critics seem to agree so far, thank goodness) but with all these pointless changes will it be a good SPIDER-MAN movie or just a good movie?

 

[Spider-man95]

And that's just it. The spirit of the characters are what's most important, & next to Batman Spidey had the most iconic supporting cast. There were so many diverse characters from Peter's world not yet seen on the big screen that could have been used (TSSM did this brilliantly) that could have given the movie diversity & fresh faces for the GA/Critics with some Spidey fatigue as well as appeased/excited comic fans. Instead they're just mixing the characters up because 'lol differentiate from what's done before' (apparently that includes parts of the comics).

I've said this before but it would've been cool if his best friend was Randy Robertson instead of Ned/Ganke. A character from Peter's comics and a fresh face for movie goers who could also link him to the Bugle later on through his father.

 

[SpideyJJ]

I've said this before but it would've been cool if his best friend was Randy Robertson instead of Ned/Ganke. A character from Peter's comics and a fresh face for movie goers who could also link him to the Bugle later on through his father.

Could have been Randy, if they wanted it could have been Hobie Brown (for the Prowler angle)...Heck they even could have used the actual Ned Leeds (y'know, the reporter not Ganke the gamer/tech dude). But, mixing them up is better to them for inexplicable reasons smh

 

[PeterBenParker]

My argument was that, it could be a good movie, heck it could even be a great movie (Critics seem to agree so far, thank goodness) but with all these pointless changes will it be a good SPIDER-MAN movie or just a good movie?

Spoiler

• Obnoxious/Annoying/Outlandish/Fanboy Peter Parker who is now their template for a teenaged Peter Parker in media as evident by the Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon and Marvel's Spider-Man clips
• Spider-Man suit that does all the work for him that we know he keeps (clearly inspired by Iron Spider and ANAD suit)
• WITH GREAT POWER THERE MUST ALSO COME--GREAT FUN (as evident by many critics reactions)
• Aunt May finding out his secrets as a zinger to end the film
• Taking elements, scraps and bits-and-pieces from Miles for no real reason
• MJ in initials only
• Liz Allan's father being The Vulture
• Villains tied to Tony Stark
• Academic rival Flash Thompson
• Betty Stacy
• Lack of Uncle Ben essence (supposedly)
  etc. etc.

Good grief.