Homecoming The Zendaya is possibly someone, maybe thread - Part 4

[Mysteryman]

Well I just read this wonderful article from yet another critic/fan gushing over Michelle/MJ. I especially loved this bit...



You can read the full article here, if you like. http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/07/zendaya-spider-man-homecoming-role?mbid=social_twitter (It does contain mild spoilers.)

Sounds great.
I can't wait to see how Zendaya did.

 

[Galactus123]

Spectacular show had pretty much 616 version of MJ in hs and that worked out fine.

a 14/15 year does NOT need to be a sexed up bombshell. but she can be cute and pretty. just like Liz is in this film. Liz is pretty ( and guys like Peter pine after her ) but Liz isn't some sexed up bombshell.

They could just based the character to Ultimate MJ.

 

[jmc]

Well the logical through-line is this character will evolve into the MJ we love. I think Feige at least has enough sense to not highjack that name and paste it onto a completely different character.

The mistake was not following through with some sort of promise to expect that. I genuinely thought either at the Homecoming dance, or in one of the end-credits scenes, there'd be some hint of the classic MJ (I was so hoping for the "Hey tiger..." entrance).

To leave it so vague and open isn't even failing to deliver a punchline, it couldn't finish the setup.

To me it makes no sense for her to evolve into a more MJ like character though. They've established a character to be a quick witted loner who's comfortable dressing casually and doesn't seem to give a crap about much, and then they want to change her to some popular high school girl? That all seems a little too 'She's All That'.

 

[Suzanne78]

Might get criticized for this... But I really rather like the new take on Zendaya's character. I definitely want to see more of her, but she was one of the most memorable characters for me.

 

[MbJ]

Yeah I'm fine with it as well.

 

[jaymes_e06]

To me it makes no sense for her to evolve into a more MJ like character though. They've established a character to be a quick witted loner who's comfortable dressing casually and doesn't seem to give a crap about much, and then they want to change her to some popular high school girl? That all seems a little too 'She's All That'.

Me either just have a character be the character. It's ironic the same people who make fun of the X-Men's black leather outfits are praising Michelle... even though one actually makes sense for the story and the other is just change for the sake of change.

 

[rebellion]

Me either just have a character be the character. It's ironic the same people who make fun of the X-Men's black leather outfits are praising Michelle... even though one actually makes sense for the story and the other is just change for the sake of change.

amen to this.

 

[DieSmiling]

"Michelle" was the worst part of the movie for me. Pointless, useless character that meant nothing, has no smiliarities with MJ in any way shape or form being dubbed "MJ" at the end. Just awful. Reminded me of Joseph Gordon-Levitt being called "Robin" at the end of TDKR. Ugh.

I was never a fan of the casting of Zendaya as Mary-Jane, but if she actually played Mary-Jane I would have gotten over it. Casting her as this weird frumpy, nasty Michelle character that has nothing to do with Mary-Jane and has virtually no similarities then calling her "MJ" at the end of the movie is just plain awful.

I know some people are allergic to criticizing Marvel Studios, but this is a clear fail for me. Just a bad idea. If you don't want to include Mary-Jane or Gwen Stacy because you don't want to rehash material that has been done to death, I get that. But don't do some weird half-assed fake version like this with no basis for it. Sooo much worse.

 

[Broseph44]

"Michelle" was the worst part of the movie for me. Pointless, unless character that meant nothing, has no smiliarities with MJ in any way shape or form being dubbed "MJ" at the end. Just awful. Reminded me of Joseph Gordon-Levitt being called "Robin" at the end of TDKR. Ugh.

I was never a fan of the casting of Zendaya as Mary-Jane, but if she actually played Mary-Jane I would have gotten over it. Casting her as this weird frumpy, *****y Michelle character that has nothing to do with Mary-Jane and has virtually no similarities then calling her "MJ" at the end of the movie is just plain awful.

I know some people are allergic to criticizing Marvel Studios, but this is a clear fail for me. Just a bad idea. If you don't want to include Mary-Jane or Gwen Stacy because you don't want to rehash material that has been done to death, I get that. But don't do some weird half-assed fake version like this with no basis for it. Sooo much worse.

Preach. I love the MCU but there's plenty of things they do that I am not a fan of, lots of negatives in many of their films. I think like you said some people are allergic to criticizing them at all.

 

[terry78]

If it makes the same amount of money or more as most other Marvel flicks they won't give a rat's ass about her reception.

 

[X Knight]

"Michelle" was the worst part of the movie for me. Pointless, useless character that meant nothing, has no smiliarities with MJ in any way shape or form being dubbed "MJ" at the end. Just awful. Reminded me of Joseph Gordon-Levitt being called "Robin" at the end of TDKR. Ugh.

I was never a fan of the casting of Zendaya as Mary-Jane, but if she actually played Mary-Jane I would have gotten over it. Casting her as this weird frumpy, nasty Michelle character that has nothing to do with Mary-Jane and has virtually no similarities then calling her "MJ" at the end of the movie is just plain awful.

I know some people are allergic to criticizing Marvel Studios, but this is a clear fail for me. Just a bad idea. If you don't want to include Mary-Jane or Gwen Stacy because you don't want to rehash material that has been done to death, I get that. But don't do some weird half-assed fake version like this with no basis for it. Sooo much worse.

 

[X Knight]

Preach. I love the MCU but there's plenty of things they do that I am not a fan of, lots of negatives in many of their films. I think like you said some people are allergic to criticizing them at all.

if a movie is "fun" and made by Marvel, it gets a pass it seems.

 

[Jekecy]

Pointless, unless character that meant nothing, has no smiliarities with MJ in any way shape or form being dubbed "MJ" at the end. Just awful. Reminded me of Joseph Gordon-Levitt being called "Robin" at the end of TDKR.

After sleeping on it and re-reading Feige's statement, I actually came to the same comparison.

This is Marvel's way of doing their MJ without having to face the criticism of ruining the classical character, because technically it never was the Mary Jane Watson. Basically having their cake and eating it too.

Much in the same way Nolan put his spin on Robin. It's not Dick, Jason, or Tim. It's an amalgamation of all three, using bits and pieces, to form their own version of the "Robin" title. Nolan wasn't bound to the boy ward/sidekick who wore a bright outfit. But he did respect what the character represented and used an analog to push the theme of inspiration and legacy of Bruce's mantle.

So I get it. If they follow this through, Mary Jane Watson simply doesn't exist in this universe.

Michelle's going to be borrowing some of the traits which made the MJ/Pete relationship so beloved. That's what the promise of the MJ name brings. But by extension, because it's not Watson, they'll also be promising to take the character and dynamic into new paths.

 

[DieSmiling]

After sleeping on it and re-reading Feige's statement, I actually came to the same comparison.

This is Marvel's way of doing their MJ without having to face the criticism of ruining the classical character, because technically it never was the Mary Jane Watson. Basically having their cake and eating it too.

Well if they were trying to avoid facing criticism I think it's fair to say this was a swing and a miss.

Much in the same way Nolan put his spin on Robin. It's not Dick, Jason, or Tim. It's an amalgamation of all three, using bits and pieces, to form their own version of the "Robin" title. Nolan wasn't bound to the boy ward/sidekick who wore a bright outfit. But he did respect what the character represented and used an analog to push the theme of inspiration and legacy of Bruce's mantle.

Yeah, I think the John Blake character sucks and is one of the weaknesses of TDKR. And even if that character is necessary for the narrative, calling him "Robin" at the end is almost a slap in the face to the fans of the real character. It's like "oh, I guess I'll throw these nerds a bone" with something that they're actually going to hate.

So I get it. If they follow this through, Mary Jane Watson simply doesn't exist in this universe.

Michelle's going to be borrowing some of the traits which made the MJ/Pete relationship so beloved. That's what the promise of the MJ name brings. But by extension, because it's not Watson, they'll also be promising to take the character and dynamic into new paths.

I get that. I just think it sucks and is a mistake.

 

[DieSmiling]

By who? Us?

I'm not crazy about it myself, but if it comes down to what me, a sweaty fanboy thinks or a family of five with more disposable income, you know who's gonna win, lol.

Well obviously fans are the only people that ever care about any of this. Doesn't mean there isn't a narrative that exists out there that this is lame.

 

[jaymes_e06]

"Michelle" was the worst part of the movie for me. Pointless, useless character that meant nothing, has no smiliarities with MJ in any way shape or form being dubbed "MJ" at the end. Just awful. Reminded me of Joseph Gordon-Levitt being called "Robin" at the end of TDKR. Ugh.

I was never a fan of the casting of Zendaya as Mary-Jane, but if she actually played Mary-Jane I would have gotten over it. Casting her as this weird frumpy, nasty Michelle character that has nothing to do with Mary-Jane and has virtually no similarities then calling her "MJ" at the end of the movie is just plain awful.

I know some people are allergic to criticizing Marvel Studios, but this is a clear fail for me. Just a bad idea. If you don't want to include Mary-Jane or Gwen Stacy because you don't want to rehash material that has been done to death, I get that. But don't do some weird half-assed fake version like this with no basis for it. Sooo much worse.

Now I think I get it... I always believed people wanted Marvel to get the film rights back for all their properties because they were going to make them the most accurate to the source material. We wouldn't just let slide bastardizations of characters go (like they did for FFINO at Fox).

Now I see (with the changes this movie makes) it's just that fans want to be seated at the "popular table" and don't care nearly as much as I thought they did about accurate depictions of the Marvel heroes and supporting characters.

 

[X Knight]

After sleeping on it and re-reading Feige's statement, I actually came to the same comparison.

This is Marvel's way of doing their MJ without having to face the criticism of ruining the classical character, because technically it never was the Mary Jane Watson. Basically having their cake and eating it too.

Much in the same way Nolan put his spin on Robin. It's not Dick, Jason, or Tim. It's an amalgamation of all three, using bits and pieces, to form their own version of the "Robin" title. Nolan wasn't bound to the boy ward/sidekick who wore a bright outfit. But he did respect what the character represented and used an analog to push the theme of inspiration and legacy of Bruce's mantle.

So I get it. If they follow this through, Mary Jane Watson simply doesn't exist in this universe.

Michelle's going to be borrowing some of the traits which made the MJ/Pete relationship so beloved. That's what the promise of the MJ name brings. But by extension, because it's not Watson, they'll also be promising to take the character and dynamic into new paths.

and all of that just makes me, as a Mary Jane Watson fan, dislike and resent this new character Michelle even more.

First, I had very little interest in the character of Michelle based on what I've seen and read. Her looks don't appeal to me nor do her behavior and personality appeal to me.

Second, I dislike her even more if she's meant to be the main LI of the MCU Spidey films. Peter already has several iconic LIs - no need to invent an original character for that role. It would like saying Lois is so overused as a LI in Superman films, so the next Superman franchise will feature a brand new original character to fill that role.

Third, and this is the final slap/insult, she's not only an original character who looks and acts nothing like Mary Jane Watson, but for some reason, she is now "stealing" those iconic initials "MJ." And by giving the MJ initials to Michelle, that pretty much precludes them from ever using the real Mary Jane Watson in the future. So that makes me dislike this new character Michelle even more.

That Feige interview confirms to me that they know perfectly well what the initials "MJ" mean to the Spidey mythos. And that makes Michelle feel to me like an unworthy "usurper." An impostor who has not only stolen Mary Jane Watson's position as Peter's main LI but also stolen her initials and thus by extension the history and importance she has to Peter's life.

And as a Mary Jane Watson fan, who finally wanted to see the character done properly on screen, and after all the **** MJ fans have gone through in the comics for years, this whole Michelle situation just pisses me off to no end.

 

[TheFuture]

Zendaya was brilliant in the role to the point that the ultimate reveal was unnecessary. I haven't got a problem with it anyway, as the TDKR trilogy established that reimagining a character is fine as long as it works.

I do have sympathy for fans on here and elsewhere though, as it doesn't seem like they'll ever get the literal interpretation from the comics that they want.

I've always been a believer that story comes before all else, if that means some things have to be changed and compromised I'm fine with it.

 

[jaymes_e06]

and all of that just makes me, as a Mary Jane Watson fan, dislike and resent this new character Michelle even more.

First, I had very little interest in the character of Michelle based on what I've seen and read. Her looks don't appeal to me nor do her behavior and personality appeal to me.

Second, I dislike her even more if she's meant to be the main LI of the MCU Spidey films. Peter already has several iconic LIs - no need to invent an original character for that role. It would like saying Lois is so overused as a LI in Superman films, so the next Superman franchise will feature a brand new original character to fill that role.

Third, and this is the final slap/insult, she's not only an original character who looks and acts nothing like Mary Jane Watson, but for some reason, she is now "stealing" those iconic initials "MJ." And by giving the MJ initials to Michelle, that pretty much precludes them from ever using the real Mary Jane Watson in the future. So that makes me dislike this new character Michelle even more.

That Feige interview confirms to me that they know perfectly well what the initials "MJ" mean to the Spidey mythos. And that makes Michelle feel to me like an unworthy "usurper." An impostor who has not only stolen Mary Jane Watson's position as Peter's main LI but also stolen her initials and thus by extension the history and importance she has to Peter's life.

And as a Mary Jane Watson fan, who finally wanted to see the character done properly on screen, and after all the **** MJ fans have gone through in the comics for years, this whole Michelle situation just pisses me off to no end.

I feel you and I need to start a support group because I understand exactly how you feel.

 

[Faith_Cassidy]

Yeah, look they were obviously fearful of fan reaction and thus the late reveal. Ironically I believe had they rode the wave of criticism by being upfront from the beginning there wouldn't have been half the issue.

I don't think they were fearful of fan reaction. They were being coy exactly because they wanted the reveal to be a surprise. IMO, if they were fearful, they wouldn't have made such bold changes at all.

 

[TheVileOne]

Well I just read this wonderful article from yet another critic/fan gushing over Michelle/MJ. I especially loved this bit...



You can read the full article here, if you like. http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/07/zendaya-spider-man-homecoming-role?mbid=social_twitter (It does contain mild spoilers.)

Reading that made me want to gouge out my own eye balls...and I love my eyes.

 

[nyyarod]

"Michelle" was the worst part of the movie for me. Pointless, useless character that meant nothing, has no smiliarities with MJ in any way shape or form being dubbed "MJ" at the end. Just awful. Reminded me of Joseph Gordon-Levitt being called "Robin" at the end of TDKR. Ugh.

I was never a fan of the casting of Zendaya as Mary-Jane, but if she actually played Mary-Jane I would have gotten over it. Casting her as this weird frumpy, nasty Michelle character that has nothing to do with Mary-Jane and has virtually no similarities then calling her "MJ" at the end of the movie is just plain awful.

I know some people are allergic to criticizing Marvel Studios, but this is a clear fail for me. Just a bad idea. If you don't want to include Mary-Jane or Gwen Stacy because you don't want to rehash material that has been done to death, I get that. But don't do some weird half-assed fake version like this with no basis for it. Sooo much worse.

Exactly. This is the only thing that really annoyed me about the movie.

 

[Jekecy]

Second, I dislike her even more if she's meant to be the main LI of the MCU Spidey films. Peter already has several iconic LIs - no need to invent an original character for that role. It would like saying Lois is so overused as a LI in Superman films, so the next Superman franchise will feature a brand new original character to fill that role.

Well I can’t really fault anyone for bringing a new character into the fold. That’s how these brands work and how they thrive across the eras. Much of the supporting cast we take for granted now, were never “originals” when introduced. Who knows where their popularity can be years from now, and how important they can be to the lore. Not saying that’s the case here, but creative expression into new avenues is rarely something I take issue with.

Third, and this is the final slap/insult, she's not only an original character who looks and acts nothing like Mary Jane Watson, but for some reason, she is now "stealing" those iconic initials "MJ." And by giving the MJ initials to Michelle, that pretty much precludes them from ever using the real Mary Jane Watson in the future. So that makes me dislike this new character Michelle even more.

Oh, I get it. Going back to my earlier example of Blake/Robin, it took me a long time to come to terms with my Robin(s) never getting to see the light of day in Nolan’s series. But I look at it like this; if there was never any intention to utilize the classical character, I wouldn’t want it to be forced upon them just to feed into some unwritten obligation to the fanbase. The lore is way bigger than any one character. Just have to be patient for their time to shine.

That Feige interview confirms to me that they know perfectly well what the initials "MJ" mean to the Spidey mythos. And that makes Michelle feel to me like an unworthy "usurper." An impostor who has not only stolen Mary Jane Watson's position as Peter's main LI but also stolen her initials and thus by extension the history and importance she has to Peter's life.

I’m still trying to fully understand where Feige and co. were going with this. On one hand I get the MJ quasi-callback as to set expectation of where her relationship can grow with Peter, but on the other hand I’m not really sure why any of that couldn’t have been accomplished with simply letting her be a new character.

So now I’m thinking there has to be something quintessential to MJ they’re planning to transplant to Michelle, but for the life of me I can’t figure it out. And I don’t know if any answer would really suffice to justify borrowing that name.

 

[Mad Ones]

I loved Zendaya in this. Can't wait to see more movies with her.

 

[TheFuture]

Ha. I'm not trying to change your opinion, just sharing mine.



I don't think they were fearful of fan reaction. They were being coy exactly because they wanted the reveal to be a surprise. IMO, if they were fearful, they wouldn't have made such bold changes at all.

Why does it need to be a surprise? Look at Ledger's reveal as the Joker: straight up honesty from the beginning and they rode the wave of rage that came with it, confident that they would be vindicated in their choice of actor.

I think what happened here is that they knew yet again they were going in a direction that fans probably didn't want but hoped that by keeping it a surprise, that Zendaya would have won people over to the change by the time it was revealed. Which is what happened here and it's absolutely fine in my opinion. Zendaya was a highlight for me.

But to me it's absolutely clear that there was an element of fear here. They understandably wanted to protect a young actress from the level of criticism that Shailene Woodley faced and rightfully so.