Time to Discuss Race: The White Washing of The Shredder

[Marvin]

Your post is filled with so many false equivalencies.

1) Complaining about the character design for the new Turtles is not the same as insulting Michael B. Jordan because he is Black or making accusations that the producers/studio are engaging in "affirmative action" or a " liberal P.C. agenda". No one is accusing staff artists on TMNT of having a hidden agenda by adding beaks, or accusing Michael Bay of having some hidden agenda by making the Turtles into aliens.

Right off the bat you missed the point. I never compared the jordan outrage to that of the turtle design. I said there are simply alot more things for people to complain about with the turtle production at this point in time than there is with the FF one during the same amount of time. I said this cause you said plainly that 'all the complaining about ff is about jordan'. Yes, and I'm trying to explain why that is.

2) You are correct. People did complain and become irate when Ledger and RDJ were announced respectively. But do you know the difference between those complaints and complaints against Jordan? Complaints against Ledger and Downey Jr. were all leveled toward their acting ability (and in the case of RDJ, his history of drug abuse and flakiness with production schedules). It was about their work ability and work ethic. Criticisms against Jordan? Just the fact that he is Black rather than White. Nothing about his ability as an actor or his resume (which would be difficult to even argue given his multi-award winning performance in Fruitvale Station and roles in several popular films and shows).

People complained that all these people were not right for their roles correct? They did so based on their preconceptions about the source material vs what the actor brings to the table persona or colour yes? All three of these actors were given the wait and see by open minded individuals(such as myself) no? These 3 actors share in all of the above.
That being said, I wasn't talking about the how and why they have been attacked, I was talking about the fact that they have all been defended. Whether you can see it or not. Jordan has been defended lots.

3) People loathe the idea of Ben Affleck as Batman because Ben Affleck's acting has long been viewed to be dubious and downhill ever since Gili, Daredevil and Jersey Girl. Though The Town and Argo have largely rejuvenated his acting career and redeemed his credibility, comic book fans still don't trust him as a superhero because of how poorly he was received as Daredevil. Affleck even admits himself that he understands fan reservations due to his role in Daredevil. On the other hand, people loathe Michael B. Jordan being Johnny Storm, because Michael B. Jordan is Black and the character is traditionally White.

Another missing of the point. I wasn't talking about why Affleck is being hated or how it compares to jordan. I was talking about the fact that Affleck and Batman are very very buzz worthy news items and that fuels the level of discourse above all else. If they had cast Elba as Batman it would have been all over the place because it's batman. There is more buzz in the F4 situation than there was in the turtle one, and that's why you are hearing more about it right now. That was the comparison. Nothing to do with people hating affleck cause of gigli....

Do you see the pattern here? Dislike of Jordan in the role is because he is Black. The rational that it is because "fans hate change" is just a convenient means of excusing the racist remarks addressed to Jordan, as anything other than racist remarks. All of your examples do not compare to what Jordan is experiencing. Ben Affleck can hit the talk show circuit and explain away his past acting failures or sympathize with fan skepticism over his acting abilities because of Daredevil. Michael b. Jordan can't explain away the fact that he is Black. That fact will never change.

Yes, yes I get that the hate for jordan is fueled by race vs source material issues and all the controversy in the castings in my examples are not. However I wasn't comparing such things in my examples. I've been trying to express something else to you, sadly I'm not having any such luck it seems.

I get that just about every time Jordan speaks on his casting right now it's doing to devolve into a racial discussion(right now). I get how that's not the same situation Fichtner faces. The problem is you don't seem all to interested in any of the various reason why this could be other than race. Maybe you should ask yourself why Samuel L Jackson and Lawrence Fishburne haven't had to explain their cbm race bending controversy in every one of their interviews...

Maybe there are just too many things being said by too many different people right now.

 

[Shikamaru]

Despite your lack of understanding, I presume that you are making an effort in earnest to present an ostensibly well reasoned rebuttal. As such, I will oblige your question out of respect for you seeming sincerity.

So you assert that "everyone" loved Nick Fury. That is hardly the case. If you go to Google and type in "Why is Nick Fury" the top autofill suggestion is "Why is Nick Fury Black?". If you continue with that search, you'll find lovely gems such as this one...



http://screenrant.com/samuel-jackson-priced-nick-fury-role-brusimm-5021/

Now, lets just ignore the fact that the top google query autofill leads to "why is Nick Fury Black" and ignore the scathing commentary on the matter and assume that your premise is true: no one minded that the Kingpin and Nick Fury, traditionally White characters, were subject to racebending.

Even if your argument were true, that does not negate the fact that the response to the casting of The Human Torch has led to widespread racism and derision across social media, forums and blogs. Even if people behaved civilly with previous race changes as you suggest (which is sadly not the case), that does not excuse or justify the current bout of racism and outrage related to the casting of The Human Torch. It would also fail to explain the fact that there is no proportionate level of seething acrimony/bigotry leveled toward whitewashed roles such as The Shredder. So at best, even if what you argue were to be true, your point would only serve highlight the extremity of the double standard regarding whitewashing, not negate it. After all, if everyone truly were okay with a Black Nick Fury or a Black Kingpin, why would people opt to be so publicly bigoted toward Michael B. Jordan, yet patient and optimistic with William Fichtner?

If I may add my two cents...

I never had a problem with Fury/Kingpin/Torch being cast black. However, I have taken issues with other characters having their ethnicities changed in the past, particularly when they're changed entirely for political correctness and nothing else. That being said, I do have huge issues with Shredder being white. A lot more than any other racebend in recent years. But despite that, I never once got into internet arguments over it. Why? Because to be honest, I kinda expected it. I've had very low expectations for this film for quite some time now, and still do. I even remember telling one of my friends "Watch, they'll cast a white dude as Shredder".

For a lot of people, I think that is what it boils down to: zero hope in the film, which leads to low expectations, which leads to no surprises. With other projects like The Avengers and the FF reboot, people's hopes were higher in the first place. So when a character got racebend against people's wishes, the element of surprise was more present there. The "shock" is what sparks and hypes debates/rants like these. But that shock can only be present there if the hope is present. And the hope isn't present for so many.

Now, you might argue the same thing can be said about the FF reboot. It's been getting mostly negative responses recently. However, there was a brief period of "hope" there when the director of the critically successful Chronicle was announced to be attached to the script. On the other hand, this film has been getting crap ever since Bay's involvement was announced, which was back in 2010 and wasn't too long after the reboot itself was announced. Heck, if I remember correctly, both were officially announced at the same time. Then it followed by more rage with the Turtles being aliens, followed by more rage when Megan Fox was cast as April (which is another thing people originally joked about that turned out true ).

To offer an analogy, let's say someone like Tom Hanks decides to hang out with Charlie Sheen and do some of the stuff Sheen is known of doing. Let's say whatever they do gets the attention of the media. In that case, there would be much more shock/anger over Tom Hanks' actions, whereas people would shrug off Charlie Sheen as "Well, that's just Charlie being Charlie".

 

[Walt Bickle]

So, in your thinking, people complaining about the design choices for the noses of CG rendered fictional cartoon characters, a mutable quality, is comparable to people complaining about a person being Black, something that can't be changed. Got it....

YES!! Being born without a nose is something that can't be changed.. but you wouldn't cast someone without a nose in the role... because johnny has a nose... and he is not black.. so don't cast a black man.... and don't you even try to imply that i'm saying being black is a deformity you big racistnist you!

Glad to know that you compare a person's HUMANITY and intrinsic nature to the irrelevance of how a group of inanimate, fictional cartoon turtles look. Glad to know that being racist toward someone is acceptable, because it is okay to hate the fact that animators wanted to give the Ninja Turtles beaks instead of rounded noses.

see now your saying i'm being racist even though I keep saying everyone is equal.. your putting people on a pedastool and saying we can't not agree with the casting because they are black.. your motives are good... but they are very immature.

 

[Marvin]

If they recast Blade as a white guy, and it's not Daniel Day Lewis...
I'm being told, there will be little issue.

 

[Donut]

If they recast Blade as a white guy, and it's not Daniel Day Lewis...
I'm being told, there will be little issue.

Benedict Cumberbatch before Daniel Day Lewis

 

[Arach Knight]

I'm curious Arach, do you think people are detracting Jordan because,
a)he's black
b)because he is black and storm is white

Let's entertain option "b" for just a moment. Lets say that people only disapprove of Jordan being Johnny Storm because Jordan is Black and Johnny Storm is White. The logical inference then would be that people would disapprove of William Fichtner being the Shredder because Fichtner is White and The Shredder is Black. However, we see that the latter is not really as much of a general truth, therefore we must question why people are so adamantly against one instance of race change and not other instances.

Given the rather acrimonious/racist comments to appear on social media regarding Jordan's Blackness, and the dearth of criticism of his actual acting ability, it is quite reasonable to infer that people are disproving of Jordan's casting largely because of Jordan's Blackness more so than because of the original ethnicity of the character being portrayed.

I understand that you would rather look at the situation with optimism about the human condition, and it is quite endearing that you assume for the better. However, in this instance, the evidence does not support your suppositions and hypothetical scenarios. Even respondents to this topic have proven my argument, down to the exactness of the phrases used in rebuttals about the acceptance of whitewashing.

I've cited articles and evidence in this very thread. You have only offered your skepticism and hypothetical situations. I am open to further discussion, but you need to bring evidence that is demonstrable or able to be cited. You yourself even admitted that anecdotal evidence is limited in credibility.

 

[Walt Bickle]

Let's entertain option "b" for just a moment. Lets say that people only disapprove of Jordan being Johnny Storm because Jordan is Black and Johnny Storm is White. The logical inference then would be that people would disapprove of William Fichtner being the Shredder because Fichtner is White and The Shredder is Black. However, we see that the latter is not really as much of a general truth, therefore we must question why people are so adamantly against one instance of race change and not other instances.

Given the rather acrimonious/racist comments to appear on social media regarding Jordan's Blackness, and the dearth of criticism of his actual acting ability, it is quite reasonable to infer that people are disproving of Jordan's casting largely because of Jordan's Blackness more so than because of the original ethnicity of the character being portrayed.

I understand that you would rather look at the situation with optimism about the human condition, and it is quite endearing that you assume for the better. However, in this instance, the evidence does not support your suppositions and hypothetical scenarios. Even respondents to this topic have proven my argument, down to the exactness of the phrases used in rebuttals about the acceptance of whitewashing.

I've cited articles and evidence in this very thread. You have only offered your skepticism and hypothetical situations. I am open to further discussion, but you need to bring evidence that is demonstrable or able to be cited. You yourself even admitted that anecdotal evidence is limited in credibility.

Dude what do you mean lets entertain option B? We are trying to drill to you that this IS the case... if not are you saying we are racist? AND PEOPLE DO DISPROVE THAT THE SHREDDER IS WHITE... It's not the main subject because he is a minor character. Johnny storm is the main and titular character. '' we must question why people are so adamantly against one instance of race change and not other instances. '' no you need to stop questioning it, it's ridiculous... NICK FURY, BLADE, KINGPIN was met with praise by the majority... yes there was some nay sayers but that's the way of the world... doesn't mean they are rascist.. you have failed to point out any rascism.. infact I doubt racists even read comics since the characters are multicultural... who are these rascists you speak of. your the only person on here to have seen any racist comments.

we are not assuming for the better... we are people who don't like the casting and we are telling you it's not because we don't like black people... you haven't cited any evidents... you pasted a quote that you took out of context surprise surprise.. you really want there to be racism involved but it's just not the case

 

[terry78]

People accepted Liam Neeson in the Bat-flicks and Hardy as Bane, so whatever. Personally they both should've been played by non-white actors in my opinion but we gave it a pass because of "ambiguity" and because the actors are fanboy faves. I suspect that plays a role also because if somebody like DDL was cast as Shredder you wouldn't hear ****.

 

[Marvin]

People accepted Liam Neeson in the Bat-flicks and Hardy as Bane, so whatever. Personally they both should've been played by non-white actors in my opinion but we gave it a pass because of "ambiguity" and because the actors are fanboy faves. I suspect that plays a role also because if somebody like DDL was cast as Shredder you wouldn't hear ****.

All that serves TS' point. It's ok when the race changing goes a certain way. Not so much the other apparently.

 

[Marvin]

@Arach Knight
Firstly, the post of mine you quoted was addressing a different but equally concerning topic. That of the equivalence in fans hating turtle redesigns and human torch changes regardless of politics. I'm aware it's impossible for anyone to look past politics in the here and now, but I was curious if you saw at least some of the basic similarities(that is, fans love source material however superficial the element) before leaping to the grander conclusions.

Secondly, I did note that we encountered an individual in this thread that behaved in the manner you suggested. We've also encountered in individual that behaved in an opposite manner(that being myself). As I have said from the start, generalizing that only one side exists is opportunistic and or obtuse. I've never denied that either groups of people exist en mass. You however are making generalizations about the media only saying one thing about jordan and no one defending him and no such outrage about the Shredder race bending issues existing. Gets us nowhere.

As far as me citing articles that attest to what I'm saying exists out in the aether. I find that kinda pointless cause we both know they exist. We both know articles in the media and tweets on twitter exists defending/accepting jordan, suggesting to wait and see, or articles and fan comment sections considering Fichtner's casting is a sign of racist hollywood. The issue is just how many of them exist, this is clearly about the greater consensus. Frankly, I personally don't have the time to search and tally such a thing given the scale of articles and tweets published. Nor am I one to make generalizations either way. I'm content stating all of this stuff exists in a considerable quantity.

In all honestly, this is where I found out about the news, I tend to land on this site and it's podcast for all my news. http://www.slashfilm.com/michael-b-jordan-confirms-fantastic-four-casting-flame-on/ between the write up and comments, I suppose I just frequent open minded circles and it's rubbed off.

I will give you something to hopefully ponder. Perhaps if you want to compare the outrage over race bending between two characters(as you so clearly keep pointing to), maybe it would be keener to try and find two of examples of equal cultural and media relevance. With similarly relevant actors.
Had Leonardo Dicaprio been cast as shredder perhaps we'd be hearing from more....you're right, I should give the hypotheticals a break.

On a different note, as I've suggested, I like all these castings, fans will be fans and when you change their stuff they will rant and rave. Sometimes they will use the excuse of race, sometimes they will uses the excuse that the actress is a dumb broad sometimes it will be about shaky acting history or not being able to fit into manholes(as if that's really important)....I don't put much past them any more, but I won't simply assume they're all racist. Such a thing wouldn't be fair, not without more evidence.

 

[Marvin]

Have you noticed or encountered all that much outrage over this Jamie Foxx as masked villain race bend lately? An interesting thing that.

Maybe we should tally the articles that rally against Foxx and compare them to the Fichtner ones.

 

[jacobed]

Fichtner will be great

 

[Human Torch]

I'm gonna reserve judgement until I see the film and see how it's handled.

If it turns out that Fichtner is some kinda "Mandarin-esq" not-the-real-one-only-taking-his-title character like I'm expecting,it could be a good thing.
Let's face it,Shredder is the Turtles only real A list villain.Instead of just using the Shredder again in the sequel,they could have the Shredder return,but this time as the real Mccoy,killing two birds with one stone.You get the Shredder again but the original Saki version.

 

[Jplaya2023]

Shredder was black in the OG cartoon (voiced by uncle phil R.I.P.) in the original movie he was black/asian. I don't care about him being caucaisian as much as him being some kind of businessman from NYC

 

[Teelie]

Actually in the 80's cartoon he was clearly Japanese, even if his voice actor was black.

 

[Zaron]

Actually in the 80's cartoon he was clearly Japanese, even if his voice actor was black.

Yeah, the story was very clear on its Japanese roots.

 

[Teelie]

And for good measure:

Shredder (Oroku Sakai) is on the left, Hamato Yoshi on the right.

 

[The Guard]

Tom Cruise being the star of a movie called The Last Samurai was ridiculous.

You might as well call it "White People Don't Want To Watch Asian Leads The Movie".

I'm trying to decide if you're serious or not.

If you are, you obviously didn't see the movie or bother to learn what it was about.

 

[The Guard]

I've always thought The Shredder was more about his armor, which is fairly central to the actual concept, and his characterization, in terms of his ongoing motivations, actions, etc. Not the fact that he originally came from Japan and had a certain skin color. I mean, as a kid, I didn't see a lot of the cartoon series, and thought he was from California or something, that he was a white guy with a tan under the helmet. It actually surprised me when I discovered he was Japanese in the original movie.

There’s always outrage somewhere on the internet when race is changed. What I’ve noticed is that more often than not, that outrage is either from purists who take issue with the change because it IS change, or from some kind of ignorance, in other words, from people who are either flat out racist/ignorant, or from people who are ignorant in the sense that they don't know enough about a character to experience/interpret the character beyond the visual element; not from people who actually think about the logistics and character elements involved in such actions.

That said, this change hasn't bothered me much, mostly because I don’t like The Shredder because he’s Japanese and because of his specific origin. I like The Shredder because he’s a cool looking badass in his chesse-grater armor, and an awful person with little to no honor, who builds a criminal empire. His origins interest me a lot less than what he eventually becomes.

Now, I won’t say that Shredder’s Japanese heritage and origins aren't important to the character. It's obviously part of the character's history. And it's a workable concept. But I will say that it’s not very interesting to me, especially being aware of countless other versions of that story in Japanese art and otherwise, and that’s it the whole love spurned/revenge story is, in fact, really rather generic. And while I realize that The Shredder wasn't so much an ongoing villain in the comics as he was in other media, that general concept is as generic, in certain genres, as say, a corporate villain would be considered in certain genres. Granted, a lot of the elements of the Turtles mythology are fairly generic...

I think stripping The Shredder of ties to his heritage and the relevance of that would be more of an issue than changing his overall race. But, as has been pointed out, it seems that that Japanese heritage is still intact, at least in a sense. Saying it's not would certainly be premature.

From what information we have, it actually looks like what they’ve done is tried to combine the best or most popular/classic versions of the character into a single concept, while also doing something new, which let's face it, was probably the right move and somewhat necessary, because The Shredder has been done in much the same manner about a dozen times at this point.

As far as whitewashing roles, or taking jobs from Japanese actors, etc...fair point, though I think we'd need more info to call "whitewashing", as it means more than just "white people playing roles originally portrayed as another race". Diversity matters, but in my mind, fostering or maintaining diversity is really a secondary or tertiary job of film. Its primary job (beyond making money) is, and has been, and should be, to entertain and to explore characters and stories, through universal means. I don't need The Shredder to be a certain skin color to achieve that.

Now, the reincarnation concept that's been discussed…that’s actually pretty outstanding. What exactly is the issue that people have with that? That’s a fantastic approach to the material, I think. Very powerful, spiritual stuff.

Anyway, I’ve got to believe, in a movie that bothers to include Vern, that the story of Oroku Saki and Hamato Yoshii will be present in some capacity. The name “Eric Sachs” is already clearly a take on the name “Oroku Saki” as it is.

 

[Kal-El.9859]

Some people just don't know when to stop

 

[LaughingMage]

So the fact that Shredder's father invented the Ninja Turtles as a crime fighting unit and that Shredder is now a White guy is some how less of a dynamic change from a story in which the Shredder killed Splinter's master and Splinter raises and trains the Turtle's to kill The Shredder as an avenging act? Or do you also hate the change of dynamic to the relationship between the Turtles, Splinter and Shredder, and will therefore not be seeing the Ninja Turtles because of a "stupid casting choice"?

Oh damn yeah, I'm absolutely seething with rage if the above is the premise of the movie. If that's the case, stick a fork in it, this movie is done in my book and I'd rather watch a pile of crap dry in the sun that an abomination like that.

I mean, shoot, at least Johnny and Susan would still be brother and sister if they are adopted siblings. It is not as if adoption makes people love one another any less or consider them any less their family. Or are you suggesting that adoption means that family members can't have the same level of love and appreciation unless they are related by blood? Because you know, Johnny being adopted (or it could be Susan) would still make them brother and sister. The Shredder's father creating the Ninja Turtles? Well, that drastically changes the relationship between the Turtles and The Shredder.

Quite honestly, yes that's what I am saying. Might be old fashioned but I am one of those type of people that believes that blood relation creates certain bounds that adoption can only do in rare cases. I also believe that mixed race adoption is even more complicated when it comes to issues of self and identity and while that certainly would be a very interesting topic to explore, I think it is simply too much for a FF movie. It's a delicate and very psychologically deep issue that IMHO. cannot be done justice in a movie like the FF. It would be an insult to just brush over it or ignore it all together and just treat "black adopted Johnny"; as if he were "white non-adopted Johnny";. Oh, and by the by, I'd also not like the adoption angle if it where actually a white actor and they would still go that route. Adoption isn't something you just mention in a byline and then go on as if it's just not important.

Answer carefully now, because your inner hypocrite is in danger of being exposed...

Ohhh, whatcha gonna do, send the PC-Police after me? Ah am quakin'in me boots right now, mate! How about you tone down the level of self-righteous indignation and give your inner social crusader a bit of a time out. It's starting to get a little ridiculous. I have absolutely no problem to admit that I'm hypocritical from time to time. It's called "being human" sometimes we aren't all sweets and roses. Though, I have to admit my hypocrisy is not race based, it's character based.

 

[LaughingMage]

Let's entertain option "b" for just a moment. Lets say that people only disapprove of Jordan being Johnny Storm because Jordan is Black and Johnny Storm is White. The logical inference then would be that people would disapprove of William Fichtner being the Shredder because Fichtner is White and The Shredder is Black. However, we see that the latter is not really as much of a general truth, therefore we must question why people are so adamantly against one instance of race change and not other instances.

Oh speculation is fun, lemme try: 1.) Shredder, while being the Turtles main antagonist, is not the main character. People generally give more leeway to secondary character changes. 2.) Shredder is mostly his armor, look wise. The small piece of visible ethnic difference between a white actor and an asian actor in the Shredder costume, namely, the area around the eyes doesn't seem to be that important to most people right now. Especially with the new costume that seems to hide even more there. 3.) This movie was mirred in crap from the get go and expectations are so low that people simply don't care anymore. If you add a turd to a huge pile of manure it doesn't really matter if that turd's especially nasty, it's all crap.

 

[Walt Bickle]

Death comes for us all, Arach knight, but something much worse comes for you. For when you die, it will be ...without honor.



http://www.searchquotes.com/quotes/author/Master_Splinter/

 

[eon001]

Not sure if this has been discussed yet, but making the villain non-Asian might have something to do with the China box office. Having an Asian character portrayed negatively apparently hurts the box office gross over there. Not sure how relevant it is, or if it's even true, but someone mentioned it in a vlog I watched and I thought I'd raise that point.

 

[LaughingMage]

Not sure if this has been discussed yet, but making the villain non-Asian might have something to do with the China box office. Having an Asian character portrayed negatively apparently hurts the box office gross over there. Not sure how relevant it is, or if it's even true, but someone mentioned it in a vlog I watched and I thought I'd raise that point.

Yeah, I doubt it, sounds like a lame excuse. You ever watched chinese cinema? I'm an avid watcher of Japanese and Chinese cinema and TV shows and a villain like Shredder fits perfectly into narratives portrayed there as well. Just google Dongfang BuBai or watch a few episodes of "Condor Heroes"; or "Heavenly Sword and Dragon Sabre".