Time to Discuss Race: The White Washing of The Shredder

[Marvin]

Yeah, I doubt it, sounds like a lame excuse. You ever watched chinese cinema? I'm an avid watcher of Japanese and Chinese cinema and TV shows and a villain like Shredder fits perfectly into narratives portrayed there as well. Just google Dongfang BuBai or watch a few episodes of "Condor Heroes"; or "Heavenly Sword and Dragon Sabre".

I assume those are all american productions trying to not only find an audience in Asia but make the limited list of films even allowed to screen/release there?
I'm assuming...yes?

 

[FrostBite]

What else do people know about the new FF production, the changed origins and the premise of the villain now being a girl?

I know how much I hate the casting of Miles Teller, Jamie Bell and Kate Mara too.

 

[Marvin]

I know how much I hate the casting of Miles Teller, Jamie Bell and Kate Mara too.

Luckily for the them, it seems more people see the good in those castings.
I'm personally hoping for an Ultimate take.

 

[Walt Bickle]

I hate it, even if they are doin an ultimate take. the other 3 look younger then the guy playin the torch. I hate the reed casting just as much as I hate the johnny casting. the thing is terrible as well. the only casting that's okay is Sue but that's ruined by her having a black brother..

 

[Marvin]

I hate it, even if they are doin an ultimate take. the other 3 look younger then the guy playin the torch. I hate the reed casting just as much as I hate the johnny casting. the thing is terrible as well. the only casting that's okay is Sue but that's ruined by her having a black brother..

The Thing character(unlike the hulk even) is very much a manifestation style character. The actor's physical presence is so important as much as what it is that he can project. I think the actor in question has plenty to give to the role.

Miles has played an individual of equal age to jordan in their last and recent release together. Mara has been playing older than that for a good while now.
Jordan has been playing high school types for a good recent while now.

Due to that, I think your particular assessment is off base. Not just personally, but in terms of what the general audience will think.

I've personally never got the Reed and sue thing. It just begs for reed to be played by someone that could play her father in another movie. As for the rest, it's completely dependent on the story imo. Now if you are against a different take on the story...that's different.

 

[Walt Bickle]

The Thing character(unlike the hulk even) is very much a manifestation style character. The actor's physical presence is so important as much as what it is that he can project. I think the actor in question has plenty to give to the role.

Miles has played an individual of equal age to jordan in their last and recent release together. Mara has been playing older than that for a good while now.
Jordan has been playing high school types for a good recent while now.

Due to that, I think your particular assessment is off base. Not just personally, but in terms of what the general audience will think.

I've personally never got the Reed and sue thing. It just begs for reed to be played by someone that could play her father in another movie. As for the rest, it's completely dependent on the story imo. Now if you are against a different take on the story...that's different.

yeah at first I didn't care bout the thing a he would be cgi'd.. but then I remembered he was a brute type before he was the thing as well and used to protect reed from bullys (in the ultimate version anyway)

never actually seen Jordan act just the photo's so maybe but saw miles in 21 and over and he's so young look. no no i'm all up for a different take on storys bt like them to still stay through to the character.
I would've liked the age thing to be something like reed and Ben (early 40's) Sue (early 30's) and johnny ( late 20's )

 

[eon001]

Yeah, I doubt it, sounds like a lame excuse. You ever watched chinese cinema? I'm an avid watcher of Japanese and Chinese cinema and TV shows and a villain like Shredder fits perfectly into narratives portrayed there as well. Just google Dongfang BuBai or watch a few episodes of "Condor Heroes"; or "Heavenly Sword and Dragon Sabre".

I've just googled "Condor Heroes" and "Heavenly Sword and Dragon Sabre". They seem to be an all Chinese cast. I'm talking about an all white cast with the Chinese villain.

Producers are concerned that negative depictions off Chinese characters could put off the Asian market.

I don't know enough about Chinese culture to confirm if that's all true, but the international box office seems to be very important nowadays, and doesn't look like they don't want to do anything to offend a potentially big market.

 

[Marvin]

yeah at first I didn't care bout the thing a he would be cgi'd.. but then I remembered he was a brute type before he was the thing as well and used to protect reed from bullys (in the ultimate version anyway)

never actually seen Jordan act just the photo's so maybe but saw miles in 21 and over and he's so young look. no no i'm all up for a different take on storys bt like them to still stay through to the character.
I would've liked the age thing to be something like reed and Ben (early 40's) Sue (early 30's) and johnny ( late 20's )

I see what you are saying about the age thing but I also think that those numbers are so on the nose and obvious and like I mentioned in another context on another thread, 'been done'. I happen to think you can capture what matters but with different ages. One of the things I like about all millar's work in the ultimate universe.

As for Ben, as someone who has dealt with many bullies in life, dealing with them is a matter of attitude and willingness to commit. Sometimes it's all about personality...and in that we have a different and fresh take on the protector archetype, perhaps one that really grew up on new york and wears a leather coat and mets ball cap even.

 

[Arach Knight]

Ohhh, whatcha gonna do, send the PC-Police after me?.

What sort of nonsense reply is that? I was using sarcasm to highlight the fact that you were in fact coming across as a hypocrite. If you choose to spread ignorance or be ignorant, then such is your prerogative.

 

[LaughingMage]

What sort of nonsense reply is that? I was using sarcasm to highlight the fact that you were in fact coming across as a hypocrite. If you choose to spread ignorance or be ignorant, then such is your prerogative.

If you tried to do so, you failed miserably. You answered to my post with the presupposition that I would somehow excuse away the changes to the Turtles movie as trivial, inferring that my problem with Jordan in the FF movie is just an excuse for thinly veiled discomfort with his skin color. I clearly stated that the Ninja Turtles movie is as dead as a duck to me, if the premises of your list turns out to be true, therefore applying the same level of scrutiny as in the case of the FF movie. You however are so blinded by your own bias and premature conclusion about the motives of people that you didn't even wait for my response before you finished your post with a snide little ad hominem. All I did then was returning the favor. Quite frankly Sir or Madam, you sound like a broken record and the single tune you have been playing since the beginning of this thread turned stale around page 4.

 

[Arach Knight]

If you tried to do so, you failed miserably. You answered to my post with the presupposition that I would somehow excuse away the changes to the Turtles movie as trivial, inferring that my problem with Jordan in the FF movie is just an excuse for thinly veiled discomfort with his skin color. I clearly stated that the Ninja Turtles movie is as dead as a duck to me, if the premises of your list turns out to be true, therefore applying the same level of scrutiny as in the case of the FF movie. You however are so blinded by your own bias and premature conclusion about the motives of people that you didn't even wait for my response before you finished your post with a snide little ad hominem. All I did then was returning the favor. Quite frankly Sir or Madam, you sound like a broken record and the single tune you have been playing since the beginning of this thread turned stale around page 4.

Your ability to follow a discussion is obviously, at best, limited. The entire point of this thread is to address the disproportionate backlash when racebending a character results in a character becoming a minority. It sets off a red alert that you are quick to condemn Johnny Storm's racebend as "idiotic", whilst carrying on about how much you "HATE that development."

Prior to that "revelation", when I decried the hypocrisy of people accepting race changes that turn minority characters into Whites, but lash out when Whites are turned into minorities, your response was...

Lol, so what? I see no reason to be ashamed of admitting that I'm prejudiced when it comes to certain characters. It's a simple fact that there are chars I care about and chars I don't care about, or care less about. Of course I’m going to want the main characters to stay as close to the comics as possible because those are the characters I care about. Secondary characters or even lower characters are less important to me so creators can do what they want with them. Change their race, kill them off, I don’t care.

So if the sarcasm missed you, it is only because every other element of this discussion has also missed you. I didn't assume you were a hypocrite. You were already being a hypocrite and I mocked you for it. I suppose I should have simply aided your understanding by being far more blunt. Here we go: YOU ARE A HYPOCRITE.

And if you are so overcome with ennui, then get the hell out of this thread and go piss away time elsewhere. You haven't had a single productive thing to contribute to this thread. I'd likely not be repeating myself so often if every rebuttal offered to me by every opposed individual were not some redundant spiel. I sound like a broken record? No, you just seem as though you have no real counter-argument to offer.

 

[Teelie]

This discussion is going to go nowhere. The ignorant and the prejudiced will not shift their views, they are incapable of it. No one ever changes their minds or concedes to being wrong when these debates spring up.

I can understand not wanting to change a character's defined race but I'm also not against it, provided the reasoning behind it is justified. In this instance there is no justification, there is no explanation I can see to make him white. This isn't about diversifying, it's about solidifying.

And I think some of those who are supporting it are the same ones upset about the Johnny Storm casting so this is a little form of "revenge" for it. As petty as that is.

 

[Marvin]

I can understand not wanting to change a character's defined race but I'm also not against it, provided the reasoning behind it is justified. In this instance there is no justification, there is no explanation I can see to make him white. This isn't about diversifying, it's about solidifying.

That's maybe because you haven't seen the film...
Before you go on to say what it's about, perhaps wait until you get more information.

I've made my peace with the idea that fans don't like certain things, but to go as far as to make your inference about no justification present and fuel the contempt for the change itself...it's does no good. This is the problem today vs back in the day, people know too much yet not enough.
I can only imagine what today's groups would have made with early intel that splinter was now a human. Some would no doubt go on about how integral it is he be a rat and only that.

 

[Teelie]

It wouldn't surprise me to find you are one who objects to Johnny Storm being black. I'm not going to go verify it but it's irrelevant. You would find a way to shift the excuse to something else or find a way to justify it without accepting this is the same thing.

I think you also missed the last three words of that bolded part, "I can see" meaning maybe there is but going on the evidence and the explanation we've seen so far, it isn't enough. And until there is a reason I'm going on the, it's just to make it appeal to a white audience and they're afraid to cast an asian in the role, theory.

 

[Marvin]

It wouldn't surprise me to find you are one who objects to Johnny Storm being black. I'm not going to go verify it but it's irrelevant. You would find a way to shift the excuse to something else or find a way to justify it without accepting this is the same thing.

I think you also missed the last three words of that bolded part, "I can see" meaning maybe there is but going on the evidence and the explanation we've seen so far, it isn't enough. And until there is a reason I'm going on the, it's just to make it appeal to a white audience and they're afraid to cast an asian in the role, theory.

Let me guess, you are making that assumption about me based on what you "can see". Sorry friend, no need to verify anything, I've defended everything about FF with every post I've made about it in this or any other thread...on this very page even. My initial stance in here, was on the theme of hypocrisy, far be it for me to go against that and support race bending here and not in any other film.

Secondly, I personally haven't 'seen' a reason to think the change was made to appeal to a white audience and for fear of Asians. I'm simply see a strong white man known for memorable villains in an traditionally, but not always asian role...that has never been fully played by an Asian actor prior.
That is, your evidence seems fickle. The actor is white and that's all you know. The rest is conjecture based on hollywood. "Absense of Evidence.." and all that.

 

[Teelie]

I didn't bother reading your posts, clearly. I don't read a lot of the posts in here when it's clear most are for excusing certain casting choices. So of all the ones in here defending the recasting of Shredder, you are the only one who didn't deride the recasting of Johnny Storm. Congratulations on being the one exception.

It's already been covered, many, many times why this is seen as white washing so I'm sorry if I didn't feel the need to rehash for the umpteenth time why it's being criticized. You know, abundance of evidence and all that.

 

[Slushy]

Hollywood doesn't care about Asian actors.

 

[Arach Knight]

Marvin, you raise a valid point. There may indeed be a rational and well formed reason why this take on The Shredder is White rather than Japanese. However, your counter-argument only further higlights the acrimony and irony of the situation.

When possibe explanations are offered in regards to changing Johnny Storm into a Black male, the rancor does not cease. If Sue and Johhny are biological siblings, people say it is perposterous (despite scientific evidence posted in this thread). If people bring up the adoption angle, people call it stupid. Worse, the dismissiveness that people express for blended families displays a level of unfathomable bigotry, as if adopted and step siblings are no less family. How judgmental and offensive!

Conversely, any rational offered for a White Shredder is taken as reasonable. Even though the Shredder is the most iconic and well known TMNT villain (he is the ony villain to appear in every franchise incarnation), he is labeled as tertiary. LaughingMage literally suggested that changing Shredder's race doesn't matter because the character isn't as "important." But why is it that a prominent figure in TMNT, that happens to be Asian, is denounced as secondary? Shredder is the impetus for the formation of the Turtles, so his importance is cemented in the lore.

So yes, it is true that a good reason may be offered for changing Shredder's race. And the reactions to that notion are in line with my earlier comments about the wilingness to have a "wait and see" approach with a White Shredder in juxtpositon with the "no reason is good enough" approch to Johhny Storm. We once again the same problem with people being hypocrites.

 

[Walt Bickle]

Marvin, you raise a valid point. There may indeed be a rational and well formed reason why this take on The Shredder is White rather than Japanese. However, your counter-argument only further higlights the acrimony and irony of the situation.

When possibe explanations are offered in regards to changing Johnny Storm into a Black male, the rancor does not cease. If Sue and Johhny are biological siblings, people say it is perposterous (despite scientific evidence posted in this thread). If people bring up the adoption angle, people call it stupid. Worse, the dismissiveness that people express for blended families displays a level of unfathomable bigotry, as if adopted and step siblings are no less family. How judgmental and offensive!

Conversely, any rational offered for a White Shredder is taken as reasonable. Even though the Shredder is the most iconic and well known TMNT villain (he is the ony villain to appear in every franchise incarnation), he is labeled as tertiary. LaughingMage literally suggested that changing Shredder's race doesn't matter because the character isn't as "important." But why is it that a prominent figure in TMNT, that happens to be Asian, is denounced as secondary? Shredder is the impetus for the formation of the Turtles, so his importance is cemented in the lore.

So yes, it is true that a good reason may be offered for changing Shredder's race. And the reactions to that notion are in line with my earlier comments about the wilingness to have a "wait and see" approach with a White Shredder in juxtpositon with the "no reason is good enough" approch to Johhny Storm. We once again the same problem with people being hypocrites.

Dude you keep goin on about evidence when none has actually been produced.. you keep saying things that aren't true and when you are proven wrong you just start your argument from the start again even though it's debunked, I was not one bit shocked when someone actually called you a broken record.

I gonna give you one more example to prove how wrong you are. I know u'll ignore this like the others you have ignored but what the hell..

'they reboot green lantern. They go with Jon Stewart as the titular character... but.... instead of making him black... they make him white.

Now what do you think would happen with this situation?

would there be uproar about his race being changed?? YES! And don't say no, because I'm telling you I would be mad if this happened.

Would the racistnists go ape **** that the production is racist against black people for doing so?? Hell yes!

When people black or white give out about the race change saying 'why the hell did they use a white man?' Is it because they are racist? NO

It's easy to declare racism... but if your gonna do it, prove it instead of beating around the bush.

Does this post not actually show you how silly you're being?

 

[Arach Knight]

Rantings and Ravings

You are already a proven force of ignorance. I'd sooner engage my dogs in a discussion about the ethical issues of imperialism than continue to waste effort and thought to form rebuttals that are beyond the capacity of an individual that is only concerned with their hovel of comfort. You did not enter this thread with an open mind, so consider further conversation between us to be as closed off as your mind. Remain defensive about your privilege while you spread FUD about feminists and minorities, simply because you fear your loss of position in a more equitable world. Every other contributor to this thread is invited to apply critical thinking and consider the weight of this discussion in an objective manner. You wish to go on about how feminists and minorities are complaining too much? Go to www.foxnews.com and converse with people of your ilk. And for your own knowledge, a hypothetical is not a sufficient example. All of my examples have been based on actual events, quotes and reactions. A hypothetical is consequently not a comparable demonstration to effectively prove your point. And with that, I leave you to your ignorance.

 

[Walt Bickle]

You are already a proven force of ignorance. I'd sooner engage my dogs in a discussion about the ethical issues of imperialism than continue to waste effort and thought to form rebuttals that are beyond the capacity of an individual that is only concerned with their hovel of comfort. You did not enter this thread with an open mind, so consider further conversation between us to be as closed off as your mind. Remain defensive about your privilege while you spread FUD about feminists and minorities, simply because you fear your loss of position in a more equitable world. Every other contributor to this thread is invited to apply critical thinking and consider the weight of this discussion in an objective manner. You wish to go on about how feminists and minorities are complaining too much? Go to www.foxnews.com and converse with people of your ilk. And for your own knowledge, a hypothetical is not a sufficient example. All of my examples have been based on actual events, quotes and reactions. A hypothetical is consequently not a comparable demonstration to effectively prove your point. And with that, I leave you to your ignorance.

You're the one with the closed mind. you want everyone to be racist but i'm sorry it's not gonna happen... and your also very dangerous twisting everything... as usual.. I said there are 2 type of feminists...I'll repeat again and please don't twist everything again. THERE ARE THE GENUINE ONES... AND DELUDED ONES WHO THINK WOMAN ARE BETTER THEN MEN AND PUT THEMSELVES ON A PEDASTOOL.. you are doing the same thing.. you're saying people cannot criticise a casting because they are black.. that's not equality... and never even mind the shredder casting.. cos you just keep ignoring the casting of nick fury etc and what I said just above which I knew you would ignore... because it shows how wrong you are... if that actually happened you would be shouting racism again.. I WILL SAY IT AGAIN. I BELEIVE IN EQUALITY, I AM NOT RACIST OR SEXIST OR WHATEVER ELSE YOU CALL ME. I can't get over how twisted you are... you do not realise how offensive you are.. how dare you make such claims about me when all I 'm doing is proving equality to you
'All of my examples have been based on actual events, quotes and reactions. A hypothetical is consequently not a comparable demonstration'.

yes yes so you keep saying, but I keep asking you to prove this and you can't... where are all these 'examples' you keep giving us??

another question you can't answer so you will ignore. and I knew you would ignore the Jon Stewart question ha ha ha ha. so much for an open mind... only if people agree with you though right?
If Jordan actually saw the claims your making he would tell you to shut the hell up!

 

[Kal-El.9859]

Some people just need to learn to relax

 

[Walt Bickle]

Some people would act the same if someone kept saying your not intelligent enough to talk to, racist, sexist and spread 'fud' about minoritys and feminists when they are obviously talking about equality.

 

[Kal-El.9859]

too many people name calling

 

[Zaron]

You're the one with the closed mind. you want everyone to be racist but i'm sorry it's not gonna happen... and your also very dangerous twisting everything... as usual.. I said there are 2 type of feminists...I'll repeat again and please don't twist everything again. THERE ARE THE GENUINE ONES... AND DELUDED ONES WHO THINK WOMAN ARE BETTER THEN MEN AND PUT THEMSELVES ON A PEDASTOOL.. you are doing the same thing.. you're saying people cannot criticise a casting because they are black.. that's not equality... and never even mind the shredder casting.. cos you just keep ignoring the casting of nick fury etc and what I said just above which I knew you would ignore... because it shows how wrong you are... if that actually happened you would be shouting racism again.. I WILL SAY IT AGAIN. I BELEIVE IN EQUALITY, I AM NOT RACIST OR SEXIST OR WHATEVER ELSE YOU CALL ME. I can't get over how twisted you are... you do not realise how offensive you are.. how dare you make such claims about me when all I 'm doing is proving equality to you
'All of my examples have been based on actual events, quotes and reactions. A hypothetical is consequently not a comparable demonstration'.

yes yes so you keep saying, but I keep asking you to prove this and you can't... where are all these 'examples' you keep giving us??

another question you can't answer so you will ignore. and I knew you would ignore the Jon Stewart question ha ha ha ha. so much for an open mind... only if people agree with you though right?
If Jordan actually saw the claims your making he would tell you to shut the hell up!

This is a great thread for finding people to block.