Time to Discuss Race: The White Washing of The Shredder

[Marvin]

With that said, my issue isn't so much any particular grievance with the fact that the character of the Shredder has been whitewashed as much as I take issue with the fact that the vitriolic rhetoric that swirls around the race change of other characters (Heimdall, Nick Fury, Johnny Storm) is seemingly absent. Even though we haven't seen a single trailer for the new Fantastic Four film or any real script details, the media and fans have ripped on Michael B. Jordan and the idea of a Black Johnny Storm. However, as evinced by this very thread, the discussion about a White Shredder has largely been met with "we should wait and see before we criticize the change" or "Shredder isn't an important enough character for his race to matter." All I wish to understand is the lack of equity in those diametrically opposed reactions.

That's because your observations aren't derived from a controlled experiment. If this thread aims to look for equivalent outrage it can easily find it, if it choose too.

This thread is consistently looking at one side of this. Not sure what's so hard to see about the fact that it happens both ways and the discourse is almost always completely circumstantial to the role. When they turned all the air bender leads(and tribes) into white people there was outrage and there was columns, just google it. The reason why it probably didn't end up on TMZ is no doubt because it was a bunch of unknown actors and an unknown character as far as American/western pop culture and recent cinema is concerned.
In this particular age of the superhero adaptation and the marvel one at that, this is fairly high profile. Turtles is about as high profile right now as Joe was, a film itself with a race bend....that no one talked about.

This shredder fallout is pretty much at the same level as the Kingpin one and that is no doubt due to the idea that they are about the same level of relevancy both in terms of character actor and character relevance in the adversary role.

That being said, when people do want to look for rocks to throw at a black casting, the go to approach that proclaims affirmative action/pc route. When they want to throw stones at the white casting(search the history of this section) they go the white power & 'The man' route. They they don't want to throw stones they go the Marvel studios rocks I trust them and Chris Nolan is my homeboy so it's cool route. Both this and FF are the stone worthy productions so...

imo.

 

[Walt Bickle]

That's because your observations aren't derived from a controlled experiment. If this thread aims to look for equivalent outrage it can easily find it, if it choose too.

This thread is consistently looking at one side of this. Not sure what's so hard to see about the fact that it happens both ways and the discourse is almost always completely circumstantial to the role. When they turned all the air bender leads(and tribes) into white people there was outrage and there was columns, just google it. The reason why it probably didn't end up on TMZ is no doubt because it was a bunch of unknown actors and an unknown character as far as American/western pop culture and recent cinema is concerned.
In this particular age of the superhero adaptation and the marvel one at that, this is fairly high profile. Turtles is about as high profile right now as Joe was, a film itself with a race bend....that no one talked about.

This shredder fallout is pretty much at the same level as the Kingpin one and that is no doubt due to the idea that they are about the same level of relevancy both in terms of character actor and character relevance in the adversary role.

That being said, when people do want to look for rocks to throw at a black casting, the go to approach that proclaims affirmative action/pc route. When they want to throw stones at the white casting(search the history of this section) they go the white power & 'The man' route. They they don't want to throw stones they go the Marvel studios rocks I trust them and Chris Nolan is my homeboy so it's cool route. Both this and FF are the stone worthy productions so...

imo.

yes! I concur! Well said..

 

[Arach Knight]

for crying out loud lads, your are all taking my statement way to literally. yes there is still a minority of racists, just as there is homophobes.

but in the world we live in today everyone is equal and racism is no longer accepted by the majority. Therefor it doesn't need to be brought up all the time.

'but people saying changing an Asian character to American is racist is nonsense.. I'm not happy with the change... but I certainly to not think it's racist.'

or a characters race being changed in fear of people saying it's racist that all characters are white.

people need to stop throwing the race card and just move on.

1) How can you even say with any seriousness that this society is not homophobic when the majority of the nation prohibits same-sex marriage and many of the benefits extended to married couples are not extended to long term same-sex partners?

As for racism, you need to understand the difference between overt-racism and covert-racism. When most people are quick to deny that racism is an issue in this country, I surmise that this belief stems from an erroneous correlation drawn between racism and overt-discrimination. Just because people are not being lynched or legally segregated does not mean that all forms of racism have come to an end.

The key concept is "forms of racism". I can and do entertain the notion that overt-racism is largely an obstacle that has attenuated as a major social issue in this country. However, covert-racism, the kind of racism that is masked by manipulation and deceit, is very much a continued problem.

- Racial profiling (Barneys, Stop-And-Frisk).

- Disproportionate criminal sentencing for Blacks and Latinos that commit a similar or lesser offense than a White.

- Ben Roethlisberger rapes a woman, settles out of court to have the suit dropped, the media rallies behind Roethlisberger and calls for the public to forgive him/give him the benefit of the doubt. Michael Vick fights dogs, goes to prison for two years and then returns to the NFL, the media and society continues to portray Michael Vick as a monster whom should not be allowed in the NFL.

The evidence is quite prominent that this country has quite a distance to traverse before anyone can declare that we are in a "post racial" society or that "racism is over."

2) "American" is a nationality, not an ethnic descriptor. What you just did was normalize Whiteness as the default at the expense of other groups. The fact that America began with immigrants from dozens of cultures and ethnic groups more or less prohibits one from associating the American national identity with any single race. Being American is a national and cultural identity, not an ethnic one. It is one of the distinct characteristics of our country. Unlike other regions of the world where national identity and ethnic identity are largely synonymous, for America, being American is distinct from one's ethnic association. So the Shredder did not go from being Japanese to American. The Shredder has changed from being ethnically Japanese to being ethnically Caucasian.

3) I never accused the change as being related to racism. I did however say that people whom become irate about White characters becoming POC while excusing POC characters becoming White, are likely to be prejudice/bigoted. That claim is not the same as suggesting that making the Shredder a Caucasian male is some how an inherent or intentional act of racism. I am criticizing reactions to the change, not the nature of the change itself. I am not here to address whether or not whitewashing The Shredder has been done with racist intentions.

 

[Arach Knight]

That's because your observations aren't derived from a controlled experiment. If this thread aims to look for equivalent outrage it can easily find it, if it choose too.

That is a false equivalence. Nearly any discussion about the new Fantastic Four film will lead to a discussion about how Michael B. Jordan is Black and how that ruins the character of Johnny Storm. This is easily found in comments to articles as well as being the topic of articles, not from sites and discussions that one must search for, but writing that is prominent when doing any general queries about the film.

Conversely, most TMNT news articles are about the change in the origin, the size of the turtles, gratefulness that the beaks are gone etc. And when Shredder's race is brought up, both the actor playing the character as well as the media/fans tend to reply with "just wait and see." I rarely see people offering the same objectivity regarding the Michael B. Jordan casting.

What you have failed to see for six pages now, is that I am not saying that there is no criticism of Fichtner's casting. I am saying that the level of criticism is not comparable to the level of criticism faced by casting choices that have seen White characters recast as a POC. So you don't really gain ground by saying "well you can find criticism if you look for it." That is merely a passive aggressive means of asserting that I am just looking for an issue and because I look for it, I will find it.

Ever since the casting of Michael B. Jordan has been made public, social media and news sites have been ablaze with racism being directed toward Jordan. Whom has directed racism toward Fichtner? No, that isn't the same as criticizing the race change of the character. That is common on both sides. But whom has just gone balls-to-the-wall and made racially based insults about Fichtner for taking on the role.

If you believe the situation is comparable, then you should reconsider your position, reexamine the evidence and the context and see if the evidence is aligned with your initial view.

 

[Donut]

How about we wait & see ? If they go the reincarnation route like some of the comics have then surely that will at least make more sense then what they are doing with Johnny Storm

 

[Arach Knight]

I applaud you, Arach Knight.

Thank you.

 

[Walt Bickle]

1)

3) I never accused the change as being related to racism. I did however say that people whom become irate about White characters becoming POC while excusing POC characters becoming White, are likely to be prejudice/bigoted. That claim is not the same as suggesting that making the Shredder a Caucasian male is some how an inherent or intentional act of racism. I am criticizing reactions to the change, not the nature of the change itself. I am not here to address whether or not whitewashing The Shredder has been done with racist intentions.

but people are mad with the racial change whether it's black to white or the other way round. You are stating that people are excepting japanese to American then from white to black and it's simply not true. you can't make that decision, specially when there is no positive feedback on either of the cases.
What you are doing is a form of racism. but in a different way, trying to differentiate the way a white actor switch is treated compared to black actor switch you shouldn't have even tried to make this comparision because you are looking for racism. and by doing so you end up putting the ones you are trying to defend on a pedastool rather then having equality.

just like feminists do. they will look into every little detail of a film and say this is sexist or that is sexist.

hence ... the new word .. racistnist

you may still have a lot of racists in your country but looking for 'racism' in media is silly... it's not there. think of everyone as equals rather then trying to diffrentiate

 

[Arach Knight]

How about we wait & see ? If they go the reincarnation route like some of the comics have then surely that will at least make more sense then what they are doing with Johnny Storm

Why are you willing to "wait and see" what becomes a White Shredder, but you don't advocate waiting to see what becomes of a Black Johnny Storm? Your post epitomizes the problem I am addressing, quite literally. My last response to Marvin criticized responses which call for the need to "wait and see" before judging the whitewashing of The Shredder, but are entirely dismissive of giving the same benefit of the doubt to the casting of a Black Johnny Storm.

And when Shredder's race is brought up, both the actor playing the character as well as the media/fans tend to reply with "just wait and see." I rarely see people offering the same objectivity regarding the Michael B. Jordan casting.

And I said that about ten minutes ago. Have we reached a point yet where people quit telling me that I am just looking for problems or exaggerating, when the evidence I point to literally occurs in the very thread in which I am criticizing the exact behavior? White Shredder? Shurg it off. But Black Johnny Storm? Now that is just "nonsense", according to fans at large.

 

[Walt Bickle]

That is a false equivalence. Nearly any discussion about the new Fantastic Four film will lead to a discussion about how Michael B. Jordan is Black and how that ruins the character of Johnny Storm. This is easily found in comments to articles as well as being the topic of articles, not from sites and discussions that one must search for, but writing that is prominent when doing any general queries about the film.

Conversely, most TMNT news articles are about the change in the origin, the size of the turtles, gratefulness that the beaks are gone etc. And when Shredder's race is brought up, both the actor playing the character as well as the media/fans tend to reply with "just wait and see." I rarely see people offering the same objectivity regarding the Michael B. Jordan casting.

What you have failed to see for six pages now, is that I am not saying that there is no criticism of Fichtner's casting. I am saying that the level of criticism is not comparable to the level of criticism faced by casting choices that have seen White characters recast as a POC. So you don't really gain ground by saying "well you can find criticism if you look for it." That is merely a passive aggressive means of asserting that I am just looking for an issue and because I look for it, I will find it.

Ever since the casting of Michael B. Jordan has been made public, social media and news sites have been ablaze with racism being directed toward Jordan. Whom has directed racism toward Fichtner? No, that isn't the same as criticizing the race change of the character. That is common on both sides. But whom has just gone balls-to-the-wall and made racially based insults about Fichtner for taking on the role.

If you believe the situation is comparable, then you should reconsider your position, reexamine the evidence and the context and see if the evidence is aligned with your initial view.

you also have to take into account that johnny storm is a titular character in the film. not a secondary character like shredder... so yes since the focus of the film will center on him and his 3 partners of course this change will be a big source of debate.

if they changed michaelangelo into a frog there would be uproar as well...

he is define as being a blonde kid with a blonde sister... making him black was stupid and pointless and makes the relation between him and sue less believable

 

[godisawesome]

I've been largely quiet on changing a characters's race because I try and consciously avoid having racist sentiments myself. I kind of like the Johnny Storm thing, and SLJ as Nick Fury was just kind of cool, while MCD as Kingpin was perfect in my opinion (Academy award winning actors that huge and that charismatic are ultra-rare.) Fitchner, in my opinion, got robbed of a starring antagonist spot in Lone Ranger by a stupid plot twist (Don't have the traditional nemesis eat the heart of a character on screen and then say he's only a secondary antagonist of little importance, damn it!) so I kind of want to see him as the Shredder.

Though that "are they saying white people are supposed to be better actors?" question is a perfectly valid negative reaction to have to a character being whitewashed. It's the type of question that does encourage largely positive discussion and does poke holes in some arguments.

 

[Teelie]

And when Shredder's race is brought up, both the actor playing the character as well as the media/fans tend to reply with "just wait and see." I rarely see people offering the same objectivity regarding the Michael B. Jordan casting.

Immediately followed by:

How about we wait & see ? If they go the reincarnation route like some of the comics have then surely that will at least make more sense then what they are doing with Johnny Storm

 

[Walt Bickle]

yes but the difference now being that the tmnt now have reincarnation in there source material... so this could be the case which would be fine.. so the wait and see is justifiable.

but there is no apparent reason why storm will now be a black guy.

and everyone loved nick fury/kingpin etc.. why is this not debunking the double standards that you make out exist in the media.. are ye just going to ignore it??

 

[Marvin]

That is a false equivalence. Nearly any discussion about the new Fantastic Four film will lead to a discussion about how Michael B. Jordan is Black and how that ruins the character of Johnny Storm. This is easily found in comments to articles as well as being the topic of articles, not from sites and discussions that one must search for, but writing that is prominent when doing any general queries about the film.

Conversely, most TMNT news articles are about the change in the origin, the size of the turtles, gratefulness that the beaks are gone etc.

What else do people know about the new FF production, the changed origins and the premise of the villain now being a girl?

I'm sure you noticed how a few months ago it was public news that the big fat producer claimed the Turtles were now Aliens...this kinda thing leads to a variety of discourse whereas with FF just how many news worthy things have been released? Of course the conversation on B jordan is more present right now than that of Fichtner, take a look at all the current circumstances. Jordan was on an Oscar campaign during the time in question, how many people on social median can ever spell this Fichtner guy's name? I digress, perhaps when we get a look at the ff costume changes(kinda the way we have the turtle costume changes) and mocap design of the Thing, people will start *****ing about that. These forums were ablaze this past week with talks of baby penis head and how ugly noses on cg creatures are.

Curious, who you think is the biggest actor attached to FF right this minute..the biggest anything. Director and producer included. Now ask yourself the question about TMNT!

And when Shredder's race is brought up, both the actor playing the character as well as the media/fans tend to reply with "just wait and see." I rarely see people offering the same objectivity regarding the Michael B. Jordan casting.

I've seen plenty of people, in the media and fan base say wait and see. Alot of which home in on the fact that Jordan is a critically acclaimed actor and fans haven't learned their lesson from Heath ledger and RDJ. I've heard this all over. But what value is anecdotal evidence.

Ever since the casting of Michael B. Jordan has been made public, social media and news sites have been ablaze with racism being directed toward Jordan. Whom has directed racism toward Fichtner? No, that isn't the same as criticizing the race change of the character. That is common on both sides. But whom has just gone balls-to-the-wall and made racially based insults about Fichtner for taking on the role.

If you believe the situation is comparable, then you should reconsider your position, reexamine the evidence and the context and see if the evidence is aligned with your initial view.

In my last post I outlined that when people are against a casting they throw stones. I went further to outline just what they do in terms of black casting they don't like and white. In the case of jordan they have no doubt said racist things there is no denying how petty fans and such can get. I personally don't think that many racist things have been said to Will for taking the role, no doubt due in part to the contempt is being thrown at Michael bay for such things on this one. So yes, I actually believe I have read people say racist based things to the producers yes. They say, and I paraphrase, that these producers(one in particular) are racist and give all the big roles to their own kind, and here they are giving a minority role to a white guy cause they are racist against minorities. Have you not heard anything of the sort? You tell me, does accusing someone of being racist qualify as 'racially based insults'? In the case of B Jordan, the production doesn't have a punching bag of the Bay ilk, and the contempt has very much been guided directly toward him for taking the role. So sure, it's somewhat different I guess.

If the point was to highlight the difference between the style of hated for white race bending with that of black race bending, it's a pretty simple, and in my opinion, an equally petty thing. However where your examination falls short time and again is in equating the mechanism for the volume of fallout between productions. The FF situation is both more high profile and has less varied items of controversy at this point in time; The minute megan fox was cast articles were written about her lack of talent/how this is more TF crap/ her calling her jewish director a nazi/ why her and bay are back together.

For example, did you notice just how loud things got when it was announced that Ben Affleck(of all people) was cast as Batman. That kinda took over the internet and late night and day time. Now, imagine that had a hint of race bending associated with it as well as being the first bit of solid news the studio released about the film? There would have been some opportunistic commentary, talking about how this and that when happens in the batman situation but not this other lower profile more varied with controversy situation. The point, and I can't stress this enough, is buzz and controversy are proportional to the relevance of the particular circumstances of each situation. That is I don't find the two current situations all that comparable, which has my point from the jump.

 

[Arach Knight]

but people are mad with the racial change whether it's black to white or the other way round. You are stating that people are excepting japanese to American then from white to black and it's simply not true. you can't make that decision, specially when positive feedback on either of the cases.
What you are doing is a form of racism. but in a different way, trying to differentiate the way a white actor switch is treated compared to black actor switch you shouldn't have even tried to make this comparision because you are looking for racism. and by doing so you end up putting the ones you are trying to defend on a pedastool rather then having equality.

just like feminists do. they will look into every little detail of a film and say this is sexist or that is sexist.

hence ... the new word .. racistnist

you may still have a lot of racists in your country but looking for 'racism' in media is silly... it's not there. think of everyone as equals rather then trying to diffrentiate

1) Look no further than this thread. Just look at Donut, whom said he'll wait and see about a White Shredder yet condemned a Black Johnny Storm as making less sense than a White Shredder. His or her post epitomizes my argument and demonstrates quite clearly that people are more accepting of a White Shredder and less accepting of a Black Johnny Storm.

2) Pointing out that there is less criticism of the whitewashing of the Shredder is not a "form of racism." Pointing out racism is not a "form of racism." And there absolutely is a differentiation. That is my entire qualm. There is a double standard in which White actors taking on the role of POC characters are not generally criticized, why non-White actors taking on the roles of traditionally White characters results in derision for the casting choice and racism being directed toward the given actor. I am not making an attempt to differentiate between races, I am calling attention to the fact that there is a pronounced differentiation that is quite hypocritical, destructive and at times, bigoted.

3) What does sexism have to do with this discussion? I can only infer that this conversation is making you feel as though your privilege is being threatened, because you keep bringing up feminism and racism and decrying the fact that "feminists" (read: women) and "race pushers" (read: non-Whites) are speaking out against each form of discrimination, respectively. Just because you do not have to suffer the consequences of misogyny and racism does not mean that those who speak up against such behavior are making up the burdens they endure.

4) So you created a derogatory term to refer to people whom speak up against racism and sexism? You group these people together and complain about their grievances. This revelation is quite curious. Unless you are culpable as a racist and a misogynist, then you should have no issue with people speaking out against such vile behaviors. Why are you so defensive of yourself, and offensive toward those whom are merely attempting to protect themselves from further harm?

5) In "my country"? My location says CALIFORNIA. I am quite aware of racism in "my country", and despite your denial, I understand just how prevalent/pervasive racism still is.

 

[Walt Bickle]

1) Look no further than this thread. Just look at Donut, whom said he'll wait and see about a White Shredder yet condemned a Black Johnny Storm as making less sense than a White Shredder. His or her post epitomizes my argument and demonstrates quite clearly that people are more accepting of a White Shredder and less accepting of a Black Johnny Storm.

2) Pointing out that there is less criticism of the whitewashing of the Shredder is not a "form of racism." Pointing out racism is not a "form of racism." And there absolutely is a differentiation. That is my entire qualm. There is a double standard in which White actors taking on the role of POC characters are not generally criticized, why non-White actors taking on the roles of traditionally White characters results in derision for the casting choice and racism being directed toward the given actor. I am not making an attempt to differentiate between races, I am calling attention to the fact that there is a pronounced differentiation that is quite hypocritical, destructive and at times, bigoted.

3) What does sexism have to do with this discussion? I can only infer that this conversation is making you feel as though your privilege is being threatened, because you keep bringing up feminism and racism and decrying the fact that "feminists" (read: women) and "race pushers" (read: non-Whites) are speaking out against each form of discrimination, respectively. Just because you do not have to suffer the consequences of misogyny and racism does not mean that those who speak up against such behavior are making up the burdens they endure.

4) So you created a derogatory term to refer to people whom speak up against racism and sexism? You group these people together and complain about their grievances. This revelation is quite curious. Unless you are culpable as a racist and a misogynist, then you should have no issue with people speaking out against such vile behaviors. Why are you so defensive of yourself, and offensive toward those whom are merely attempting to protect themselves from further harm?

5) In "my country"? My location says CALIFORNIA. I am quite aware of racism in "my country", and despite your denial, I understand just how prevalent/pervasive racism still is.

yes donut did say that and he said it for a reason... and I also said something which i'll say again

'yes but the difference now being that the tmnt now have reincarnation in there source material... so this could be the case which would be fine.. so the wait and see is justifiable.

but there is no apparent reason why storm will now be a black guy.

and everyone loved nick fury/kingpin etc.. why is this not debunking the double standards that you make out exist in the media.. are ye just going to ignore it?? ''

so now you are saying it's racist... you were denying it earlier on that you weren't bringing up racism at all.

because there is feminists and then there are feminists who are just wrong and imply that woman are superior to men. you make out I keep changing the subject. i'm not i'm clearly comparing

you saying people cant criticise JS being black because he's black... if people don't like the racial change it doesn't mean it's racist.

i'm not making up a word for people who speak up for racism and sexism. i'm making up a word for people who look for racism where it's not apparent. you kept saying you weren't talking about racism earlier on to but now your saying that you are speaking up for racism?? make up your mind.
And yes your country is America...don't know why u are getting sarcy.. I was implying America...that's why I said YOUR COUNTRY.

When you get debunked you just ignore it and keep repeating your argument
and i'm gonna repeat this one again because I really want you to answer it

'and everyone loved nick fury/kingpin etc.. why is this not debunking the double standards that you make out exist in the media.. are ye just going to ignore it?? ' ???????

 

[Arach Knight]

I'm sure you noticed how a few months ago it was public news that the big fat producer claimed the Turtles were now Aliens...this kinda thing leads to a variety of discourse whereas with FF just how many news worthy things have been released? Of course the conversation on B jordan is more present right now than that of Fichtner, take a look at all the current circumstances.


I've seen plenty of people, in the media and fan base say wait and see. Alot of which home in on the fact that Jordan is a critically acclaimed actor and fans haven't learned their lesson from Heath ledger and RDJ. I've heard this all over. But what value is anecdotal evidence.

For example, did you notice just how loud things got when it was announced that Ben Affleck(of all people) was cast as Batman.

Your post is filled with so many false equivalencies.

1) Complaining about the character design for the new Turtles is not the same as insulting Michael B. Jordan because he is Black or making accusations that the producers/studio are engaging in "affirmative action" or a " liberal P.C. agenda". No one is accusing staff artists on TMNT of having a hidden agenda by adding beaks, or accusing Michael Bay of having some hidden agenda by making the Turtles into aliens.

2) You are correct. People did complain and become irate when Ledger and RDJ were announced respectively. But do you know the difference between those complaints and complaints against Jordan? Complaints against Ledger and Downey Jr. were all leveled toward their acting ability (and in the case of RDJ, his history of drug abuse and flakiness with production schedules). It was about their work ability and work ethic. Criticisms against Jordan? Just the fact that he is Black rather than White. Nothing about his ability as an actor or his resume (which would be difficult to even argue given his multi-award winning performance in Fruitvale Station and roles in several popular films and shows).

3) People loathe the idea of Ben Affleck as Batman because Ben Affleck's acting has long been viewed to be dubious and downhill ever since Gili, Daredevil and Jersey Girl. Though The Town and Argo have largely rejuvenated his acting career and redeemed his credibility, comic book fans still don't trust him as a superhero because of how poorly he was received as Daredevil. Affleck even admits himself that he understands fan reservations due to his role in Daredevil.

On the other hand, people loathe Michael B. Jordan being Johnny Storm, because Michael B. Jordan is Black and the character is traditionally White.

Do you see the pattern here? Dislike of Jordan in the role is because he is Black. The rational that it is because "fans hate change" is just a convenient means of excusing the racist remarks addressed to Jordan, as anything other than racist remarks. All of your examples do not compare to what Jordan is experiencing. Ben Affleck can hit the talk show circuit and explain away his past acting failures or sympathize with fan skepticism over his acting abilities because of Daredevil. Michael b. Jordan can't explain away the fact that he is Black. That fact will never change.

 

[Walt Bickle]

''1) Complaining about the character design for the new Turtles is not the same as insulting Michael B. Jordan because he is Black or making accusations that the producers/studio are engaging in "affirmative action" or a " liberal P.C. agenda". No one is accusing staff artists on TMNT of having a hidden agenda by adding beaks, or accusing Michael Bay of having some hidden agenda by making the Turtles into aliens. ''

YES IT IS!!!!

''On the other hand, people loathe Michael B. Jordan being Johnny Storm, because Michael B. Jordan is Black and the character is traditionally White.''

YES!! why is that racist? people can't express how they feel about the change, they have to accept it because it is a black man or else there racist??

RACISTNIST!!!!

 

[LaughingMage]

they'll tweaked his heritage from biological Storm to adopted but still preserves his history and characterisation .

Boy do I HATE that development, the adopted route is just damn stupid and idiotic because it changes the whole dynamic between him and Susan. Now, if they would have made Susan black too I'd see things differently but as of now I won't see the movie because of the stupid casting choice.

 

[Arach Knight]

'and everyone loved nick fury/kingpin etc.. why is this not debunking the double standards that you make out exist in the media.. are ye just going to ignore it?? ' ???????

Despite your lack of understanding, I presume that you are making an effort in earnest to present an ostensibly well reasoned rebuttal. As such, I will oblige your question out of respect for you seeming sincerity.

So you assert that "everyone" loved Nick Fury. That is hardly the case. If you go to Google and type in "Why is Nick Fury" the top autofill suggestion is "Why is Nick Fury Black?". If you continue with that search, you'll find lovely gems such as this one...

WHY THE HELL DO YOU WANT A BLACK MAN TO PLAY NICK FURY? Let me clue you all in on something… HE WAS A WHITE MAN!!!!!!

http://screenrant.com/samuel-jackson-priced-nick-fury-role-brusimm-5021/

Now, lets just ignore the fact that the top google query autofill leads to "why is Nick Fury Black" and ignore the scathing commentary on the matter and assume that your premise is true: no one minded that the Kingpin and Nick Fury, traditionally White characters, were subject to racebending.

Even if your argument were true, that does not negate the fact that the response to the casting of The Human Torch has led to widespread racism and derision across social media, forums and blogs. Even if people behaved civilly with previous race changes as you suggest (which is sadly not the case), that does not excuse or justify the current bout of racism and outrage related to the casting of The Human Torch. It would also fail to explain the fact that there is no proportionate level of seething acrimony/bigotry leveled toward whitewashed roles such as The Shredder. So at best, even if what you argue were to be true, your point would only serve highlight the extremity of the double standard regarding whitewashing, not negate it. After all, if everyone truly were okay with a Black Nick Fury or a Black Kingpin, why would people opt to be so publicly bigoted toward Michael B. Jordan, yet patient and optimistic with William Fichtner?

 

[Arach Knight]

Boy do I HATE that development, the adopted route is just damn stupid and idiotic because it changes the whole dynamic between him and Susan. Now, if they would have made Susan black too I'd see things differently but as of now I won't see the movie because of the stupid casting choice.

So the fact that Shredder's father invented the Ninja Turtles as a crime fighting unit and that Shredder is now a White guy is some how less of a dynamic change from a story in which the Shredder killed Splinter's master and Splinter raises and trains the Turtle's to kill The Shredder as an avenging act? Or do you also hate the change of dynamic to the relationship between the Turtles, Splinter and Shredder, and will therefore not be seeing the Ninja Turtles because of a "stupid casting choice"?

I mean, shoot, at least Johnny and Susan would still be brother and sister if they are adopted siblings. It is not as if adoption makes people love one another any less or consider them any less their family. Or are you suggesting that adoption means that family members can't have the same level of love and appreciation unless they are related by blood? Because you know, Johnny being adopted (or it could be Susan) would still make them brother and sister. The Shredder's father creating the Ninja Turtles? Well, that drastically changes the relationship between the Turtles and The Shredder.

Answer carefully now, because your inner hypocrite is in danger of being exposed...

 

[Arach Knight]

YES IT IS!!!!


RACISTNIST!!!!

So, in your thinking, people complaining about the design choices for the noses of CG rendered fictional cartoon characters, a mutable quality, is comparable to people complaining about a person being Black, something that can't be changed. Got it...

Yet you believe I am the racist in this conversation.

Glad to know that you compare a person's HUMANITY and intrinsic nature to the irrelevance of how a group of inanimate, fictional cartoon turtles look. Glad to know that being racist toward someone is acceptable, because it is okay to hate the fact that animators wanted to give the Ninja Turtles beaks instead of rounded noses.

 

[Donut]

Why are you willing to "wait and see" what becomes a White Shredder, but you don't advocate waiting to see what becomes of a Black Johnny Storm?

Because the actor only got the part because he is BFF with the director. He did not audition & when if he did audition it was said he was the first cast. They are changing it just because this guy is bff with the director & just because they can really

 

[Walt Bickle]

Despite racists still existing in the world... nick fury and kingpin was widely accepted regardless of some nay sayers but your still looking at racism the wrong way. Your even taking the quote WHY THE HELL DO YOU WANT A BLACK MAN TO PLAY NICK FURY? Let me clue you all in on something… HE WAS A WHITE MAN!!!!!!
completely out of context.
I hate that johnny storm is black. just as much that I hated that batman was blonde in batman forever. but I don't have anything against blonde people. 'Why would they cast a blonde man as batman? Bruce had black hair!!' see that doesn't mean I hate blondes

 

[Donut]

Despite racists still existing in the world... nick fury and kingpin was widely accepted regardless of some nay sayers but your still looking at racism the wrong way. Your even taking the quote WHY THE HELL DO YOU WANT A BLACK MAN TO PLAY NICK FURY? Let me clue you all in on something… HE WAS A WHITE MAN!!!!!!
completely out of context.
I hate that johnny storm is black. just as much that I hated that batman was blonde in batman forever. but I don't have anything against blonde people. 'Why would they cast a blonde man as batman? Bruce had black hair!!' see that doesn't mean I hate blondes

The Nick Fury change also happened in the comics & the same actor playing Nick Fury now gave MARVEL his permission to use his likeness. So the Nick Fury argument really has no point to it & changing Kingpin does not change Daredevil like changing Johnny Storm does with the team

 

[Marvin]

So, in your thinking, people complaining about the design choices for the noses of CG rendered fictional cartoon characters, a mutable quality, is comparable to people complaining about a person being Black, something that can't be changed. Got it...

I'm curious Arach, do you think people are detracting Jordan because,
a)he's black
b)because he is black and storm is white

I've never really known comic book fans to protest black actors before. I would hope they all love blade as much as I do. I digress however, if your answer is the b, then perhaps the situation isn't all that far removed from the current one facing the turtle design. Some people are less about racism and more about loving off their source material. I'm not one to defend the Jordan haters, fans don't inspire much faith these days, but I wouldn't be so quick to deem them racist.

If I've learned anything about fans since MoS, it's that they like their source material as is.