TMOS Review & Speculation Thread (Spoilers) - Part 3

[BaleISBatman4ev]

It was a big letdown for me personally . I was Soooo STOKED for this but it failed I think for several reasons.

1: The Pacing and script are too frenetic and never stay in one place long enough ,or one moment long enough for us to comprehend the feelings or evolution Clark is going through. Unlike Begins the flashbacks in MOS are all merely devices to quickly speed through to get us to the end action as opposed to setting up a foundation for who the character is and becomes. It's so heavily weighted towards action and spectacle its hard to invest in anything thats happening beyond an "Oh that looks cool" level.

2:Snyder's direction. I'm a filmmaker myself and so certain things that stand out to me may be lost on some GA moviegoers but i feel like Snyder's knack for visual storytelling is such a crutch he can't pull off effective scenes that resonate emotionally. He knows how to make things look how they should but not feel. As monumental scenes would go by I felt like i was still watching the trailer as nothing is really broken down beyond surface level with these characters... Some moments resonate but im afraid its all mostly style and visuals over substantive storytelling.

I walked out of this movie not sure if i liked it more than Superman Returns (A movie i was disappointed in also) I think it is honorable that they tried to accommodate the more sic-fi elements of the Superman Mythos but all the while lost the novelty of what makes Superman on film fun to watch in the first place from an audience perspective. The twin dynamic of being clark kent uber nerd and also the invincible flying God superman and the tension created between living a normal life and having to save the day in between...

I did enjoy the ending i think i have enough faith in Cavill's portrayal that MOS 2 could rectify the problems this one has and give us the penultimate Supes flick... I just think i have no faith left in Goyer as a writer and frankly Snyder as a director.

 

[kingfalcon]

People seem to love lois/amy

 

[KalMart]

I don't think Snyder did anything to elevate how many feel about him as a filmmaker after Sucker Punch. He was probably this film's greatest shortcoming, when all's said and done.

When I look at the material and potential in the concepts and story ideas...if even someone like Matt Vaughn, or Abrams or even Favreau handled it I could see it being remarkably better. If they are going to go forward with more films, that's where the changes have to start.

 

[tomoe]

Just got back from watching it. Enjoyed it overall, it wasn't nearly as bad as the RT score implies it to be. The only scene that bugged the hell out of me was Clark letting his father die just because he was told to. It really would have been better if he tried and just didn't get there in time. It was just really dumb that he would not disobey his father even to save his life. ugh. The movie pretty much started to lose me there. Leaving Martha with 3 Kryptonians while beating up Zod and blowing up a gas station was dumb too, but I assumed he would be able to hear if Martha was being tortured or whatever. Still, he was incredibly lucky they didn't just kill her. I also didn't like that Clark was the one that led Zod to Earth; I'd rather Zod just found earth by chance despite it being a huger leap of logic. It wouldn't have been impossible; there had been an outpost on Earth, and outposts were what Zod was exploring. The destruction of Metropolis really isn't as many people are making it out to be. Most of it was destroyed by that terraforming ship while Superman was on the other side of the world trying to stop it, and not from the Superman/Zod fight. The fight with Zod itself, while causing a lot of damage wasn't nearly as catastrophic. I didn't really get the feel that thousands of people died because of the Zod/Superman fight, nor did I feel that Superman really had much control over where the fight was going as it was very chaotic. As for the neck snapping I mostly thought that family was dumb for not getting out of the way, though I wish Superman had thought to yell at them to move it. Otherwise, even if he had managed to fly away despite Zod's resistance, Zod could have just aimed his eyebeams down and destroyed that family anyways. Hands over eyes? Ouch, hands either get hole burned through them to family or hands flinch away and family is still dead. I don't really see the tons of other options other people are talking about in regards to this. I still don't like that it had to happen. Certainly it was better than SR. Might as well give my comic book movie ratings:

9/10
Spiderman 1,2
Iron Man
Thor (sue me, I liked it more than Begins)
Dark Knight (-1 for that somewhat odd minimovie with Harvey Dent after the main movie with Joker was over, though I'm not sure how else they could have integrated it)

8/10
DKR (I enjoyed it just as much as DK but saw too many flaws and leaps in logic as I was watching it, like wow Batman sure trusts random females, even ones that have screwed him over multiple times already. Among other things that are hilariously pointed out quite well in Hishe)

7.5/10
Avengers: enormous expectations, so was slightly let down

7/10
Batman Begins: kinda boring
MOS
Iron Man 3

6/10
Captain America: started out great but fizzled to a nonsensical ending, very weak villain

5/10
SR: SOOO bored. This was partly my fault though; I had watched every trailer, TV spot, clip and even read the novel before watching so I knew beat by beat what was going to happen. Still I expected to feel something for Superman when he was being beat up but there had been so little character to him that I felt nothing. I remember being horrified halfway through the movie that it wasn't going to get better. And I really really wanted to like it.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

To me, that doesn't show Superman. So, he's willing to let all those people die because he isn't strong enough to sacrifice how hard breaking his moral code will be? For Superman, killing someone is a huge sacrifice and it's a sacrifice no one wants to make because it takes all the courage somebody can muster.

Also it wasn't five seconds. I'm still confused as to why people see it that way. He struggled before he killed Zod and was devastated afterwards. He didn't just suddenly snap his neck. He struggled against it, but realized there was nothing else he could have done and made the hardest choice possible which was getting hurt himself in one of the worst ways imaginable. Because you can't just act like that never happened. It will always be there. I know someone who almost had to kill someone in order to save someone and even that still weighs heavily on his mind. It's not an easy place to go to.

So with your Elite example, are you honestly saying you'd rather him let Zod kill the family than kill Zod???

Have you seen it?

It has nothing to do with being too weak to break his moral code. It takes all the strength he has not to break it.

Well what are they then? It seems to me you want an alternative to just get around Superman not killing. If I were a screenwriter, and you set that up battle up between Supes and Zod, how are you going to solve that? It seems like they would just be avoiding it. You do the unthinkable thing, from a writing and character perspective. That's great drama for what this type of film was saying.

I literally just gave one, in that post. That IS an example of a dramatic story that involves Superman NOT killing.

Are you suggesting Superman killing is the ONLY way to create a good dramatic moment?

And i've also already posted what I would have done as a writer. I'd have not destroyed black zero, and written in a way in which the kryptonian pods they were first encapsulated in in the beginning could be used on him again. And that's just one idea. There are plenty other options. Maybe Superman telling Zod that his people are still alive, but captured in the Phantom Zone and Zod actually fighting to get to them since he stated he so dramatically cares about them. Maybe Zod destroying himself in some way.

It's all off the top of my head stuff... imagine what a good writer could actually come up with if they put their mind to it.

It is not as cut and dry as 'well he has Superpowers, of course he was going to have to kill him'.

 

[IncredibleMink]

IGN just posted a GREAT article about the whole "killing zod" controversy

http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/06...-man-of-steel?abthid=51bb846925a7d8c97f00000f

 

[Krumm]

My two cents: I loved it. A solid 8/10. My biggest complaint was the flashback structure. I never felt like I got a good handle on Clark and Jonathan's relationship -- except at then end where a welled up at young Clark in the cape.

As for the killing of Zod, I was okay with it. It rocked me. However, part of me wanted Zod to kill the people first.

 

[Ultimatehero]

Have you seen it?

It has nothing to do with being too weak to break his moral code. It takes all the strength he has not to break it.

I remember it, but somehow lost in my memory just everything he did did not seem Superman to me. In the same logic you just gave, you sound like would be happier if Superman let Zod kill the family so that he didn't have to kill Zod and I can never see that as being the Superman thing to do. Superman, to me, places others before himself and to me - that's doing the opposite of that and is a rather selfish thing to do.

 

[Doc Samson]

My two cents: I loved it. A solid 8/10. My biggest complaint was the flashback structure. I never felt like I got a good handle on Clark and Jonathan's relationship -- except at then end where a welled up at young Clark in the cape.

As for the killing of Zod, I was okay with it. It rocked me. However, part of me wanted Zod to kill the people first.

Definitely would've made the neck snapping more understandable IMO but it's not like it's a deal breaker for me, I gave it an 8/10 as well.

 

[Motown Marvel]

Well Zod shut down Jor el and Dr. Hamilton had no clue how it all worked. That would have been a terrible plot hole to have the humans assume they knew kryptonian technology and could harness it to create a new phantom zone. Even Clark didn't know how it all worked. Its obvious people are going to nit pick this movie to death like they did TDK and TDKR. I could nit pick every movie too but then I wouldnt enjoy a single one

Seriously man, you need watch again and pay attention. They knew what would happen because Jor El told Lois. And he knew because well he built the damn things. The singularity only stopped once the engines were sucked up into too, kind of making the singularity suck itself up. Which no doubt Jor El knew that was going to happen. If you're going to complain at least complain about stuff that worth complaing about.

There is so much to be refuted here, but lets recognize the fact that if yer not even willing to consider the criticism then yer sure as hell not gonna be willing to accept any solution. but fact of the of the matter is, i shouldnt have to provide solutions in order to validate my criticisms. I shouldnt have to re-write the movie in order to satisfy the most simple and basic core concepts of the character which the film makers failed/refused to uphold. it's ridiculous that we even need to have a debate over superman KILLING someone. this is worth complaining about. this is not nitpicking. Superman killed someone. that is so grossly out of character that its demeaning.

 

[IncredibleMink]

I remember it, but somehow lost in my memory just everything he did did not seem Superman to me. In the same logic you just gave, you sound like would be happier if Superman let Zod kill the family so that he didn't have to kill Zod and I can never see that as being the Superman thing to do. Superman, to me, places others before himself and to me - that's doing the opposite of that and is a rather selfish thing to do.

Selfish? He just killed his last remaining connection to his own people. He chose the people of Earth over the people of Krypton. How more selfless can you be in that moment?

 

[Ultimatehero]

Superman killed someone. that is so grossly out of character that its demeaning.

It's odd how some are skipping around Doomsday because it practically was the same exact fight, just Superman didn't die and it was Zod.

People are acting like Doomsday never happened.

 

[Ultimatehero]

Selfish? He just killed his last remaining connection to his own people. He chose the people of Earth over the people of Krypton. How more selfless can you be in that moment?

Um, I was talking about Superman Elite.... really confused here... to me not killing and letting others die to just uphold their own moral code is a very selfish thing to do, sacrificing your morals and allowing yourself to taint your life through killing someone in order to save others is one of the bravest sacrifices someone can make.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

I remember it, but somehow lost in my memory just everything he did did not seem Superman to me. In the same logic you just gave, you sound like would be happier if Superman let Zod kill the family so that he didn't have to kill Zod and I can never see that as being the Superman thing to do. Superman, to me, places others before himself and to me - that's doing the opposite of that and is a rather selfish thing to do.

Why does anything i've said sound like that?

Yeah, that'd be a real happy inspiring ending wouldn't it

He'd have gotten Zod away from that family. He just would have found a different way of stopping him.

Like I said, it's not a question of putting himself before the safety of others. It's about him understanding the bigger picture, and the true cost of what him being okay with being the villain would lead to.

Something which this film is apparently willing to ignore.

 

[IncredibleMink]

Um, I was talking about Superman Elite.... really confused here... to me not killing and letting others die to just uphold their own moral code is a very selfish thing to do, sacrificing your morals and allowing yourself to taint your life through killing someone in order to save others is one of the bravest sacrifices someone can make.

My bad! I didnt realize you were talking about Superman Elite t:
I completely agree with your point then! The lack of sleep must be getting to me haha

 

[Motown Marvel]

It's odd how some are skipping around Doomsday because it practically was the same exact fight, just Superman didn't die and it was Zod.

People are acting like Doomsday never happened.

doomsday was a non-sentient genetic experiment. hell, he doesnt even have organs.

 

[Krumm]

Definitely would've made the neck snapping more understandable IMO but it's not like it's a deal breaker for me, I gave it an 8/10 as well.

But let me say that I didn't want Zod to kill them the justify the neck snap more (though it would have) but more so to accentuate Kal's naïveté and his inability to truly save everyone. Though I think him killing Zod is a symptom of his naïveté.

 

[Ultimatehero]

Superman wasn't strong enough to just get Zod away and subdue him, any way around it more people would have died. He can't just expect Zod to go easily and he can't get Zod to go easily. He was in a tight spot where there was only one option to take that wouldn't lead to many others getting killed.

How did the film ignore it? By showing him struggling before killing Zod? By being totally devastated after killing Zod? By not bringing it up again when the film ended five minutes later? I don't know how much they could have done.

But, as said -- so, with Elite, you're saying your Superman would allow other people to get killed if it meant he didn't have to?

-------------

A HUGE part of me right now is seeing Synder and Goyer looking at this right now while writing a scene in MOS 2 where Lex is being interviewed on Good Morning America saying that Superman didn't need to kill Zod and Lois is trying to explain why he had to. And if not, these talks are definitely going to inspire that scene to be there.

 

[KalMart]

I can't help but feel a little sadness for Superman fans who waited six years (even more since SII and SIV) while other heroes had their days in the sun...hoping that they'd redeem the Superman franchise with a new movie. Only to get this rather hollow effort. It's almost as if Superman is in a worse position than before amongst the real heavy-hitters in the movies....like how many chances should they have, are we going to wait for yet another reboot now? Personally, I'm not a particular comic/hero fan to the extent that it would hurt if there never were any more comic films for a long time. In fact for a while, I've felt that the genre could use a log break overall. But I always felt that there is something pure and humanistic in particular about being a Superman fan, and that keeps being let down by the movies. It's kind of worse now because there aren't any excuses with lack of technology or scope like in years past.

Before I gave the film a C+...I'm revising that to a C- because of the potential that I felt was actually there but underdeveloped and under-executed...as opposed to something like SR which I felt was just a bad story idea from the get-go.

 

[Sharkboy]

I liked the flashbacks, I think they will come off better during a second watch considering how weird it was to see him become superman before we see his father die. It seems that they used it in order to further illustrate whatever was going on in the story rather than tell a simple point A to point B story which is quite jarring considering we are used to seeing things in a certain order, but like i said...I might end up liking it a little more later on.

 

[Ultimatehero]

I can't help but feel a little sadness for Superman fans who waited six years (even more since SII and SIV) while other heroes had their days in the sun...hoping that they'd redeem the Superman franchise with a new movie. Only to get this rather hollow effort.

Thing is, the MAJORITY of the fans would disagree with that since the majority here gave it 9 and above. The number with the highest agreement actually is 9/10. So, most Superman fans didn't feel it was a hollow effort but a near perfect if not perfect one.

 

[Doc Samson]

But let me say that I didn't want Zod to kill them the justify the neck snap more (though it would have) but more so to accentuate Kal's naïveté and his inability to truly save everyone. Though I think him killing Zod is a symptom of his naïveté.

Right, I think it would've served both purposes. Him thinking he could somehow stop Zod and still save the family only to see them vaporized and then having to make the harsh decision to kill Zod would've made the whole thing more powerful and yes...justifiable.

I also think they should've shown a casualty number in the thousands at the end, and have it haunt Clark to the point that he understands for the next movie and beyond that he has to go about things in a different way. It would've also kept the human/alien tension interesting because while he saved the day, he also caused millions in destruction and lost lives.

 

[Street Vendor]

I liked it. A lot. There were some problems. I think Jonathan Kent's relationship with his son should have been more fleshed out, and I didn't care for the way he died. Other than that, I enjoyed it. I had no real problem with Zod's fate, because I really don't know how else Superman could have settled that situation. I thought Cavill was very likable and sympathetic as Clark, and I don't get the complaints about Adams, as she may be the best Lois Lane yet. Shannon was an excellent villain, and Crowe was a fantastic Jor-El. And Ayelet Zurer was a very compassionate Lara(and she was also easy on the eyes). Zimmer's score didn't make me forget John Williams, but it fit the movie well.

I need to see it again, and I need to digest everything a bit more, but I'd give it around an 8 out of 10.

 

[bullets]

Thing is, the MAJORITY of the fans would disagree with that since the majority here gave it 9 and above. The number with the highest agreement actually is 9/10. So, most Superman fans didn't feel it was a hollow effort but a near perfect if not perfect one.

I'm also confused by that post. If anything there are several people let down , by the film , but not on the level of Superman Returns. Another reboot? This is heading for a sequel. No doubt.


Don't get me wrong. I wish some people here didn't have issues with the film and that it got a higher rating on Rotten Tomatoes. Hopefully some of the issues will be addressed in Man of Steel 2.

 

[KalMart]

Thing is, the MAJORITY of the fans would disagree with that since the majority here gave it 9 and above. The number with the highest agreement actually is 9/10. So, most Superman fans didn't feel it was a hollow effort but a near perfect if not perfect one.

I think a lot of that is projection though...as a fan (at a superhero fan site), giving it more props than it deserves because it's their favorite character, and often overcompensating to 'save face' with it, or more forgiving than they would be with other movies. And while understandable and laudable (we all do it in various facets of life), it's also a bit unfortunate.

As a film, comparing it with other superhero movies and big movies in general, it deserves a generous 7/10. But if it makes some Supes fans happy that at least he has some presence in movies, then kudos to that as well. But it was just okay as a movie....and to be fair, there is a lot of just okay out there anyway. That's why it's still refreshing that a movie that's actually really good can stand out...this unfortunately just wasn't one of them. A serviceable player, but not a leader.