TMOS Review & Speculation Thread (Spoilers) - Part 3

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It's an idealistic form of humanity and something that actually sets him apart from the rest of humanity more than his super powers. THAT makes him Superman.
Idealism is different than reality and they made it a point of grounding this movie in as much reality as possible without sacrificing entertainment value. Ideally, Superman would like to save every single person in the world, but he doesn't have the power. Despite his seemingly limitless power, he isn't infinite.

Lemme ask you this...if Superman is too preoccupied with catching people from plummeting to their death, holding rubble from falling on top of them, and tending to their wounds....then who would stop Zod from continuing his rampage?
 
The problem with Superman Returns wasn't the lack of action. It was that Superman himself wasn't compelling enough besides bemoaning how much people asked to be saved and how alone he is in this world.

Man of Steel went some way towards addressing that particular issue since the character scenes were fantastic however they weren't balanced alongside the larger than life and horribly detaching action scenes.

Ironically one of the things I felt Superman Returns got right was the rescue sequences, which really showed Superman caring and protecting mankind from danger be it large or small. Those parts were great.

As mentioned, this was one of the places Man of Steel got it wrong. The action and 'superfeats' were all broad strokes with the minutiae ignored.

There was no emotional danger. It was wanton destruction with no consideration from Superman about the safety of innocent civilians.

I remember the Superman Returns video game had an interesting concept to it. Superman himself was invulnerable but it was game over if Metropolis suffered too much damage. That was his Achilles' heel.

So you'd still go around 'punching' and 'flying' etc but you really had to keep the city safe. I'd want that desire to keep people safe explored in the sequel otherwise it'll just be another explosion fest with little room for emotional involvement.

I totally disagree - I think MoS did a fantastic job of trying to portray a fight between such powerful beings in a realistic way!
Take your example SR - the devastation in Metropolis was the result of an earthquake caused by Luthor's kryptonite island. He had time to fly around and try to save as many people as possible, with no immediate threat - in MoS he had to worry about the small detail of about 8 Kryptonian warriors who wanted to pummel his head into the ground, whilst also carrying out the mass genocide of the entire earth!!!
Most of the destruction was caused by Black Zero and the World Engine. Superman had to destroy the World Engine to stop it from terra-forming the earth - I think that was a bit more important than him flying to the other side of the earth and melting a bit of falling glass.... save hundreds, maybe thousands of people in Metropolis – or save the entire planet!?! And the tentacles..? We'd already seen that technology on everything Kryptonian, so why was that defence mechanism out of place?
MoS showed real world devastation that super beings like this could cause - it made the Avengers look like an episode of the A-Team by comparison.
As for a sense of danger - do you really get that in any Superhero movie? Did you at anytime, in any of the Batman films or in any of the Marvel films, think that the hero was going to die?
I loved the film – I wanted to watch it again as soon as it ended. I had no problem with the way the timeline jumps around. I loved Krypton (would have liked to have seen more of it), loved the destruction, loved the little nods to Lexcorp. I'd probably go as far as to say, for me personally hands-down the best Superhero movie I have seen - it has it's flaws, but every comic book movie does... and easy 9/10 maybe a 9.5/10 for me! :woot:

One last point - as somebody else mentioned earlier, the damage such super-powered beings caused is a great thing for Lex Luthor to use against Superman - and he's gotta be in the sequel... also, the Kryptonian armour of Zod reminded me of Luthor's battle suit... and Zod left his on top of a skyscraper... hmmm
 
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I do too, I'm not even a comic book fan outside of vertigo and batman. It's just what I personally saw and read between the lines, I'm used to not having things spelt out for me and I just went by what Jor el says in the film and applied it to different parts of the film...BUT you could be right as well...I could be filling in the blanks myself without knowing it. Either way it could have been better illustrated by Goyer in the script.

You'd be surprised how often it happens and you don't notice. Last year I revisited about 20 or so of my favorite genre movies that I hadn't watched in a long time and when I actually only took their stories for face value (what what presented in the films) I realized just how much of my own baggage I added to them to make up for plot holes and such. Was a very rewarding exercise in retrospect.
 
Ok, I'm ready to give a review. I'm going to cover it all wether people like it or not.

The film starts with a bing and that really sets the tone for the entire film. Snyder's over the top effects are on glorious dsiplay. I thought for the most part there were some new things that haven't been done before. Insted of having holograms they have those things you put your hand in to make differnt shapes & things to enter act with people.

The plot for the most part isn't complex. It is black & white. That is the part I believe some critics had an issue with. I did not.

L. Lane had lots of screen time so any report to the opposite if completely false.

The supporting cast to me made the Film. Costner, Fishbourn, etc...etc... show their chops!

Zod, I liked the way he "was created to defend Krypton." He does his best to do that. His sidekick is solid and not at all campy.

Joe-El, perhaps my favorite is his role. Nolan & Co would be wise to have him in the next film.

I loved the way young Clark struggled with just how to contain & use his powers. Seeing in x-ray vision, super strength you really felt what he was up against.

Superman, make no bones about it he was a Jesus figure in this film. The sceen in the Church with Jesus stain glass of Him praying that God not have Him go to the cross. Only to have Superman ask the Priest if he should surrender was fitting.

When Supperman did surrender and was cuffed was also like Jesus standing before Poncus Pilot. Pilot said "I have the power to set you free." Jesus replys "You have no power over me."

Superman says to the general the same thing only worded differnt.

All in all this is truely the Superman film fans have been waiting for. It is a good kick off character introduction film. I see the next film digging further into who Superman truely is and he will continuee to hone his skills.

A very nice film. I give it a solid B+
 
That is not Superman. This is the thing. The conflict concerning Superman is the pain that comes from NOT being able to save people.

He's ALWAYS struggled with that and it's an intrinsic part of his character.

Bypassing that with the concept of 'well it's common sense to let people die' just contradicts everything that made Superman what he was.

This might be some new iteration of the character but I can't say it's a version I like. Snyder kept saying Superman is the grand-daddy of superheroes but this version is just another superhero and nothing unique.

I've said ad hominem, I liked parts of the film, but it just fell over on its way to becoming a truly great film about Superman.

We disagree on the action front. There was too much. By the end it was just another big CGI fest, which is a pity since the Zod vs Superman fight was the only one that really got me interested. The rest were just more of the same.
Somehow I think we r a bit sadistic. We wanna see superman sacrifice for us. Like zod holds the innocents as ramson to make superman surrender. Then beat the crap outta him. Only then we would say it's emotion related n has depth.
 
It's weird, I went to bed last night having enjoyed Man of Steel, and with the general review consensus seeming to be that it was a flawed but overalls very good film. I wake up today to find it has a 57% Rotten Tomatoes rating and the critics are savaging it as turkey of the year. Maybe the conspiracy theories about the critics having the knives out for non-Batman DC films have some truth in them.
 
The film did have its share of flaws. The script felt weak in places, with point A not always connecting to point B as smoothly as it should. Some characters made weird decisions. The settings felt a bit barren and devoid of life - it's worrying that Krypton felt more like a real place than Metropolis or Smallville. It's like Metropolis was just a bunch of empty buildings to get blown up, a clearing where the three characters we cared about were hanging around, and nothing else. And Smallville was nothing but the Kent household and IHop. And I just think some of that sense of wonder was lacking. Superman was treated like A superhero, rather than THE superhero, and people seemed to get used to him walking around in his costume pretty quickly. There was the odd ropey line too. So yeah, there were weaknesses. But not enough to sink the film or call it a failure. It wiped the floor with all 4 of 2011's superhero movies, though Green Lantern is now the one it seems to be getting compared with.
 
Saw it yesterday. 7/10.

Cavill is great. The story has great ideas, the action is great. The script was poor, the dialogue was often quite wobbly, characters were underdeveloped, editing was really choppy.

Goyer needs to take a back seat from here on out. As someone here said yesterday "his ceiling is too low" for what this needs. He needs to just be the "ideas guy", have someone who is actually a talented scriptwriter work with him to make it all work.
 
I totally disagree - I think MoS did a fantastic job of trying to portray a fight between such powerful beings in a realistic way!
Take your example SR - the devastation in Metropolis was the result of an earthquake caused by Luthor's kryptonite island. He had time to fly around and try to save as many people as possible, with no immediate threat - in MoS he had to worry about the small detail of about 8 Kryptonian warriors who wanted to pummel his head into the ground, whilst also carrying out the mass genocide of the entire earth!!!
Most of the destruction was caused by Black Zero and the World Engine. Superman had to destroy the World Engine to stop it from terra-forming the earth - I think that was a bit more important than him flying to the other side of the earth and melting a bit of falling glass.... save hundreds, maybe thousands of people in Metropolis – or save the entire planet!?! And the tentacles..? We'd already seen that technology on everything Kryptonian, so why was that defence mechanism out of place?
MoS showed real world devastation that super beings like this could cause - it made the Avengers look like an episode of the A-Team by comparison.
As for a sense of danger - do you really get that in any Superhero movie? Did you at anytime, in any of the Batman films or in any of the Marvel films, think that the hero was going to die?
I loved the film – I wanted to watch it again as soon as it ended. I had no problem with the way the timeline jumps around. I loved Krypton (would have liked to have seen more of it), loved the destruction, loved the little nods to Lexcorp. I'd probably go as far as to say, for me personally hands-down the best Superhero movie I have seen - it has it's flaws, but every comic book movie does... and easy 9/10 maybe a 9.5/10 for me! :woot:

One last point - as somebody else mentioned earlier, the damage such super-powered beings caused is a great thing for Lex Luthor to use against Superman - and he's gotta be in the sequel... also, the Kryptonian armour of Zod reminded me of Luthor's battle suit... and Zod left his on top of a skyscraper... hmmm

I don't like watching or like seeing my favourite characters being thrown into a third act that is essentially a glorified disaster film. See every Roland Emmerich and Michael Bay film made in the recent past apart from their attempts at low-budget cinema. It's been done before.

And just by the by, you'll notice that those Kryptonian warriors weren't actually trying to do anything except safeguard the Black Zero. They didn't attack him at the World Engine because they thought the tentacles were enough he only faced them off prior to the Metropolis action beats.

The point remains that it's about balance. I'm not expecting to just not fight the Kryptonians or destroy the Black Zero, but that conflict surrounding him choosing one or the other HAS to exist. Otherwise it's just like watching someone play the final level in some steroid pumped video game. Hell, even in video games there's clever mechanics involving not going ready fire aim and instead minding your surroundings.

As far as someone going to die? No, but you're missing the key point behind these films. Everyone knows the hero will save the day. The questions are why is he doing this and how is he going to do this? The action sequences in the Avengers and the Batman films were well done.
They were engaging and satisfying. Ditto for the Iron Man films.

It was essentially a third act packed with action for the sake of being packed with action. An endless greyscale explosion fest. If you like that kind of thing, sure. Have fun. Me? I've seen it before. A lot of times. It's not what I expected from this film. Not at all. This isn't Transformers.

It's Superman. He flies around, saves people, beats the bad guy and gets the girl. All of the while with a sense of joy at achieving the impossible. People keep talking about the concept of grounding this film in realism.

It's not about realism to me. It's about verisimilitude. It's about taking that leap of faith and suspending belief for a second. But the action scenes were so over the top but all the same emotionally sterile that I kept detaching myself from the film and waiting for the next great character moment. That's not a good sign in a film. It really isn't. And a lot of it has to do with the message this film is trying to convey as well.

In Geoff Johns' Up, Up & Away, Superman has an epiphany. He says that after watching Superboy and Superman of Earth-2 die he might have suppressed his powers in a bid to live a normal life but thinks that would have been the wrong thing to do. Why? Because whilst there's people out there with way bigger problems than a man finding a purpose behind the powers that he has.

So instead of sitting around and wondering what it would be like to live a normal life or why he's here, he just gets on with using those powers for good and saving people. In another issue by Johns, we find out that Jonathan Kent conveyed that message to him. That he needs to be out there saving people and doing it with the joy of knowing people appreciate it. Not whether they need it or not, but because they're grateful to him.

Even in Mark Waid's Birthright when Clark is a young journalist traveling the world, he saves people and does it willingly. Sure, he has pangs of guilt knowing that he's alone in this quest, but he does it anyway. Why? Because that's the powers given to him. They're a gift. And the purpose behind them is clear. Guide humanity by embodying their best qualities.

Was that evident in this film? Not really. Even at the end of Batman Begins you sense that Gotham is grateful that there's this guy out there saving people and having the will to inspire them into being better. Not here. Here those ideals are sacrificed for 'realism' in crashing alien ships and beating opponents through buildings. It's not Superman. It's just not.

In closing, you and others have harped on about 'common sense' or 'realism' means that he has to sacrifice some for the purpose of saving Earth and he can't waste time stopping a building from falling since he has to destroy the Black Zero/World Engine/Genesis Chamber/Tesseract/Death Star, but then why does Jor-El say 'You can save them, you can save all of them'? Does he mean, go forth and create wanton destruction whilst flying Zod through buildings and lay waste to an already suffering city? Nope. It's because the film isn't sure WHAT it wants to do.

Moreover, that question you asked, DorkyFresh. That's the whole point. Who will stop him? Superman will. But that doesn't mean that an assumption should be made of Superman going 'well **** the innocents, I've got a megalomaniac to kill'. Further to that, the Army got all those bloody planes to fly in and do their thing, didn't it have any ground detachments that could go in and provide support for individuals trying to escape buildings etc? Firefighters and police officers who could come in and support an evacuation of the affected districts?

You wanna go for realism? Show an equally active humanity. That's realism. Don't portray them as a group of helpless monkeys who just run from a doomsday device or stand there looking shocked as a gravitational anomaly eats them up. It's ****ing stupid. It goes for scale but forgets the minutiae like every other blockbuster and then still tries to ram home philosophical topics and ideals concerning the saving of humanity as a species.

It's got an artistic and quasi-dramatic feel to the relationship between Clark and his two sets of parents, but then it throws all that out the window in the favour of cheap thrills through explosions. Yeah. No. But I guess all this will be tackled in the sequel! For the first hour or so anyway. Then it will give way to some doomsday device designed by Luthor/Brainiac/Darkseid that requires explosions and buildings to be destroyed for the remainder of the film.
 
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I am not sure SIN CITYM WATCHMEN or 300 had the scope of this film. Also, each of those films have a much more stylized look and feel. This thing was trying to look like the real world and yet I don't think the effects themselves or designs ever felt out of place. Plus I just thought they were damned beautiful. I guess it helps to have that extra year to make something picture perfect.

i noticed every single time the cgi kicked in. i found it unnecessary and rubberrish still
 
Saw it yesterday. 7/10.

Cavill is great. The story has great ideas, the action is great. The script was poor, the dialogue was often quite wobbly, characters were underdeveloped, editing was really choppy.

Goyer needs to take a back seat from here on out. As someone here said yesterday "his ceiling is too low" for what this needs. He needs to just be the "ideas guy", have someone who is actually a talented scriptwriter work with him to make it all work.

agreed 100%
 
Well. I like to share an experience. U were crossing the road... suddenly u saw a car running toward u from nowhere... ur legs were just stone... couldn't move a bit. Then u saw the car rammed right into u... have u ever experienced that? Ur body is just out of your control...

Just like u suddenly see thing falling toward u. Instead of running, u squat down n close ur eyes...

not if someone were to come in front of the car with super strength and stop it from hitting me...id run out of it's path instantly. that family had time
 
I had my issues with the film, like anyone else. However, trying to go back and digest what I just saw (and LOVED) last night, I think I would have made many of the same decisions that came from Snyder/Goyer/Nolan.

Cast/Acting: Perfect. Not a damn thing wrong with any of it. I thought the characters were all scripted pretty well, and everyone was pitch-perfect. Was really surprised just how much Russell had to do as Jor-El. I knew he wasn't just a cameo, but I didn't expect him to be so involved. I liked that change over what we're used to. If his whole consciousness is encoded, then it would stand to reason that he would take actual steps to be proactive in the plot as a hologram. Also loved Costner. Wanted to cry when he died. Such a powerful moment. I saw earlier someone griping about this quiet moment being ruined by a big effin tornado in the background. Not so. For Clark and Jonathan to have such an intimate moment amidst such devastation really drove it home. Everything Jonathan said, every look he gave, just made ME feel better. That is the impact he needs as a father. Cavill needed it, too, and delivered. For all his internal struggles and insecurity about using his powers, he still just oozed that quality of "it's going to be okay". Finally, I'll expound on Lois. Amy Adams :hrt:. What else is there to say? She played strong and vulnerable off each other simultaneously in a way I've not really seen before. Never really got it from Margot. She always felt like a caricature to me. Frankly, I liked Teri Hatcher best until now.

Mythos: I really enjoyed the breadth of what was shown with Krypton, setting up very real drive and motivation for Zod. I really could sympathize with losing that purpose. I related it to finally havnig to give up sports because of repeated ACL reconstructions, I felt the same thing. I loved the importance Kal has as a [natural] son of Krypton, and the role he plays in deciding to be the LAST son of Krypton. Also really liked the change up with the dynamic of his relationship with Lois. Aside from the secret identity aspect of it, I particularly enjoyed that it gives a logic behind why Lois is his pseudo press agent. That's an aspect of Lois' role in the mythos that's always bugged me. Even though I didn't like that it was so easy for Clark to be discovered, and that 'Superman' is very easily connected to Smallville, it's a reality that it needs to be that way, and I'm glad it was addressed. I like that the people who 'know' from growing up with Clark don't really speak about it, and didn't sell him out in the movie. The only reason anyone talked to Lois was because she'd already connected enough dots to put her 'in the club'. Again, it makes me uncomfortable, but I like that it is that way.

Plotting/Script: This one's a toss up. Does the action go on a bit too long? Probably. However, given the nature of the fights and the beings duking it out, each encounter is bound to last a while and have maximum collateral damage. I may have trimmed a handful of shots from each, but I really felt satisfied with the action. Another thing I've been thinking about is exposition. There's a lot of it. But it's absolutely necessary, as everyone is needing to have things explained to them. As long as no one is telling me over and over and over about "the whole water main is gonna blow!" then I really don't mind the use of exposition. As I've been typing this post, I've also been realizing how little exposition there is when it comes to the themes of the movie, but they actually are explored quite a bit. There's a great deal of exploration of the concept of trust. Tying that in with religion and the concept of first contact, my favorite scene was actually Clark seeking solace in the church with the priest. The notion that someone needs to make that leap of faith before trust can be established was very poetic for Superman. I also found it very fulfilling that the script actually addresses the religious implications of the character, and shows that it really is not intentional, but that people will see that because they want to and are looking for it. Finally, I am glad the first contact motif was not a bunch of lip service from the filmmakers, but a real component of introducing Superman to the world. It's one of my favorite types of stories (no surprise, given my username), and I was tickled the way it was handled.

There's so much more I want to discuss, but this post is getting lengthy. I really loved this movie. I think the flaws are certainly there, but I found them to be necessary in some cases. An example of that is Superman's sort of obliviousness to the destruction while fighting. He's never done it before, never had to fight a comparable opponent before, and I found it very natural he would lose sight of the effect that it would have. Moving forward, I expect to see much more care taken by him to be aware of bystanders other than Lois, and to see him to continue to evolve into the full character we want to see.

9/10
 
Yes, the films are similar (alien invasion in a city), but you can't compare the two without actually seeing it. When people say that Metropolis gets basically obliterated - it's true. In Avengers the city was mostly still there.

Yes, you can... and neither Smallville nor Metropolis got totally obliterated. There were buildings that were still standing.

Of course in Man of Steel I'm pretty sure tens of thousands of people got killed or injured. They don't address that, and that's fine with me. It's still a talking point. Avengers handled it differently. The action is on a completely different scale as well. Just because both cities are under attack does NOT make the the same.

I said they are similar. That does not mean they are exactly the same (look up the definition of the word).

You're questioning if I saw the film because I said something that goes against what you think you saw in trailers? What?

Yes, I was with respect to some of your responses. I did go see the film by the way, so you don't have that argument that I didn't. I should say that it is pretty trivial to go see a film and find fault in it if that was your aim when you went to see the film. It is different to go with the attempt to understand the interpretation and re-imagining of a classic story with a modern day look and feel. I am pretty sure that a lot of critics did the former when they went to see the film, which pretty much destroys their credibility. It's easy to write a bad review on a film when you went it to it with the attitude of finding something wrong with it.
 
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Ok, so the Avengers battle destruction and Metropolis battle destruction were the same. Got it. Same movie they just changed the characters. :whatever:
 
Nah they weren't the same at all. In scope or choreography. Except for the Hulk/jet stuff they repeated with the 9 ft tall dude
 
not if someone were to come in front of the car with super strength and stop it from hitting me...id run out of it's path instantly. that family had time

I was just saying some people would go immobolised out of extreme fear.
 
I will say I thought Metropolis got more or less decimated, until Superman and Zod were chasing each other around the city in flight. That really shows how massive the city is, and how little of it was actually destroyed.
 
My view on Man of Steel was that it was a great movie and a very good origin story for a new Superman. It reminded me a lot of Superman Earth One. The main issue I had was Superman's lack of concern for the people. I realize what he was up against but even in the comics Superman would take on those odds and still find away to keep some not all but at least some of the people safe. This Superman didn't until the end. I'm not upset with the ending because as I said before Superman killing is nothing new. Him and Batman use to kill in the Golden Age and over time Superman has been shown to take a life only when he has to. So I'm not upset about that plus I loved the remorse and regret he had after doing so. So once again I think it was a fantastic origin movie and a great start to Superman. I even like that they did away with the love triangle in a way making it only a love triangle to the people who don't know Clark is Superman and Amy's age didn't show at all in fact she looked younger. So I am looking forward to the sequel. My only thing is next time have Superman try to protect the people as well as fight the bad guys. But then again if I were a writer I would use that complaint of Superman's lack of regard to human life during the fight to motivate and even as a good building or starting point for Lex to turn the people against him or even have it that Lex might have lost his wife or someone he loves because of this attack to fuel his hatred for him.
 
And then what ? The fight will basically just continue.

He had to kill him. Period.

Agreed. I think the act was partly due to the fact that it was the only way to end the immediate peril of the family in front of them, but also because of Zod's sole purpose becoming the vengeance of Krypton, and that he "would never stop". The script and Michael's performance really sells you on the belief that Zod literally won't cease until every last human is dead or he is killed. Only two options.
 
And then what ? The fight will basically just continue.

He had to kill him. Period.
I rather agree. Clark could keep fighting him, but the moment Zod gets the upper hand or Clark has to sleep or Clark even lets go of him, Zod will attempt to kill humans, first thing. He said he'd never stop. And they don't have Kryptonite or any means of imprisoning Zod. Even just continuing the fight will kill more people (as a side effect of destroyed buildings, if nothing else). Superman was intentionally written into a corner here so that he had to make that choice.
 
And then what ? The fight will basically just continue.

He had to kill him. Period.

Agreed. I think the act was partly due to the fact that it was the only way to end the immediate peril of the family in front of them, but also because of Zod's sole purpose becoming the vengeance of Krypton, and that he "would never stop". The script and Michael's performance really sells you on the belief that Zod literally won't cease until every last human is dead or he is killed. Only two options.
Agreed I look at it like how it happened in the comics where Superman had no choice but to kill Zod. That's the only reason why I was not upset about it he had no choice much like what he had in the comics with Zod and Doomsday.
 
No one can explain that scene other than how it was written. It was written with the intention that it had to end like it did. Trying to fan-fic it doesn't work as you would have to rewrite the entire third act. That's not a statement of agreement or disapproval, it just is.
 
And then what ? The fight will basically just continue.

He had to kill him. Period.
THANK YOU some people dont seem to get it zod is obsessed and believes he is the good guy he will not stop so pulling him away does what?

oh yeah more carnage and the fight will continue and probably more lives lost
 
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