To Believe or Not To Believe? (SHOW RESPECT, OR RISK A BAN) - Part 2

[ShadowBoxer]

I'm not sure if what you're trying to say is something of a variation on "God created evil,so doesn't that make it alright?"

God allowed Free Will. The price that comes with it,is that mankind will choose to do evil more often than not.

God also gave the Law. People can break the law,but there are always consequences. That leads to punishment.

Again,this seems like very elementary discussions that can be easily understood.

And no,the are no contradictions in the Bible.

Agreed!

 

[ShadowBoxer]

Bottom line, if God is our creator, if we are his children, there is no logic in a punishment/reward system.
A father will not punish his children, but rather help them if they fall.


There are tons, you just don't see them because you don't question it.

So wait! Your saying because God gave us free will we should be able to neglect his commands and do whatever the heck we wanna do and he should just pick us up so we can do the same stuff over and over again? God is like parent, I don't know about you, but my parents didn't allow me to do whatever I wanted when I was a kid/ teen without any sort of consequences. I got grounded/ punished for doing stupid stuff or disobeying my parents. On the flip side, my parents would ocassionally reward me for doing well in school and staying out of trouble.

 

[Greens]

Your parents aren't omnipresent, omniscient and/or omnipotent. These analogies are always going to fall short because God is much more than a parent in his abilities.

 

[ShadowBoxer]

Your parents aren't omnipresent, omniscient and/or omnipotent. These analogies are always going to fall short because God is much more than a parent in his abilities.

The point that he was trying to make is that since God gave us free will. We should just do whatever even if we know it's displeasing to God, without any consequences. God and life in general don't work that way.

 

[ShadowBoxer]

We are God's children. We are the next best thing after all

I would say that God doesn't want to take away our own technological achievements and take away our own scientific discoveries. I wouldn't want God to fix everything for us. That is why we have science, doctors, nurses. Perseverance, determination and faith also help tremendously. I don't think we should underestimate humanity just yet. As much as I want God to fix every single problem that humanity runs into, this is our journey after all.

Word!

 

[ShadowBoxer]

The God you describe would have to be quite powerful. It is estimated that over 100 billion people have existed at some point on the Earth. A God that can simultaneously hear each thought and design a specific plan for each person. Not to mention he would have billions of this number in heaven as well. Whew. God is quite the manager

That is the Christian God.

 

[ShadowBoxer]

I'm pretty much grown bored of the "Why doesn't God do X" questions. (The answers can pretty much be summed up with Free Will/Cursed Creation) but you've handled them well.

Yea I agree. And the people that claim God's plans are flawed/ evil or will never understand him because their hearts aren't open, and then don't have a personal relationship with him. God only go where he is invited. A person with a rebellious spirt / heart and is skeptical won't hear from God. Unless of course they encounter God for themselves and make the decision to accept Christ as their savior. If they choose not to, then they will continue to examine God and his methods as though he was a fellow human which, is why it's hard for them to comprehend his ways.

 

[moviedoors]

Yea I agree. And the people that claim God's plans are flawed/ evil or will never understand him because their hearts aren't open, and then don't have a personal relationship with him. God only go where he is invited. A person with a rebellious spirt / heart and is skeptical won't hear from God. Unless of course they encounter God for themselves and make the decision to accept Christ as their savior. If they choice not to, then they will continue to examine God and his methods as though he was a fellow human which, is why it's hard for them to comprehend his ways.

When I first had my crisis of faith, I was DESPERATE to hear from God. I didn't want to not believe. I prayed and I prayed. Nothing. I didn't choose to not believe. I simply couldn't.

 

[Greens]

The point that he was trying to make is that since God gave us free will. We should just do whatever even if we know it's displeasing to God, without any consequences. God and life in general don't work that way.

I know, I don't really agree with Isildur's argumens.

And the people that claim God's plans are flawed/ evil or will never understand him because their hearts aren't open,

Do you understand his plan? I thought God's plan was always only going to be comprehensible to him alone?

Anyway, the reason we point out flaws in his "plan" is because we are critically examining it. You start from a religious perspective, which means you're going to come with the "humans aren't capable of understanding his plan" argument. We examine the claims, and come to the conclusion that the logic that is used is suspiciously human. The whole Bible is suspiciously human. Disputing a flaw with "well, that isn't really a flaw, it just LOOKS like a flaw" doesn't get you anywhere. It doesn't teach us anything. If anything, it teaches us to remain willfully ignorant of the problems inherent to religion.

 

[ShadowBoxer]

When I first had my crisis of faith, I was DESPERATE to hear from God. I didn't want to not believe. I prayed and I prayed. Nothing. I didn't choose to not believe. I simply couldn't.

While I don't know you personally and I can't speak for God, I do have a few questions. My first question is did you want to believe in God because people told you that you should or did you genuinely want to hear from God? Second, did you accept Jesus as your lord and savior? Did you believe in the bible? Did you spend any time reading the bible in addition to prayer? Also where thing any signs? Such as a random person saying something to you in regards to your prayers? Did you attend a church or have religious friends that could have given some advice or counsel?

I ask all those questions because I was like you at one point. I didn't hear from God in my prayers ( so it seemed) and I was unsure of my faith. But later I realized the reason I didn't hear from God was because I was simply going through the motions and simply had religion. Not saying this was the case for you, but it's what happened to me. I acknowledged that God exists, but I relly didn't spend time praying or reading the word or trying to get to know him. Basically I practiced Christianity because of fear of Hell and because I grew up in s Christian home. But later, I genuinely encountered God for myself and truly accepted Christ. Then I thought about all the things that happened in my life up to that point, and I was sure that God had been with me all along.

 

[Marvolo]

Well the Bible was written by humans. So it's going to be "suspiciously" human.

Not all denominations approach the Bible with the same viewpoint. Fundamentalist evangelicals (especially the fundamentalist Baptist I grew up around and with) seem to think that the Bible was written by God and that he used the authors sort of like those people who type transcripts in a court room. They just wrote whatever he "told" them to. Almost as if none of them or the world around them influenced it. That's how I was taught in school and that's how my preachers explained it.

Whereas other Christians (for instance the Catholic Church) interpret the Bible in a way that takes into account the author's intent, the culture at the time that the author wrote the book, the language it was written in, idioms of that language, textual criticism etc.

The human element of the text isn't ignored by all Christians.

 

[ShadowBoxer]

Do you understand his plan? I thought God's plan was always only going to be comprehensible to him alone?

Anyway, the reason we point out flaws in his "plan" is because we are critically examining it. You start from a religious perspective, which means you're going to come with the "humans aren't capable of understanding his plan" argument. We examine the claims, and come to the conclusion that the logic that is used is suspiciously human. The whole Bible is suspiciously human. Disputing a flaw with "well, that isn't really a flaw, it just LOOKS like a flaw" doesn't get you anywhere. It doesn't teach us anything. If anything, it teaches us to remain willfully ignorant of the problems inherent to religion.

God's desire is for every living person is to be in relationship with him. That is clear from the bible. He doesn't desire for anyone to go to hell, but he gave us free will and the choice must be made on your own to accept his son Jesus or not. When some makes the decision to follow, Christ they are born again and Christ lives in them. They can freely communicate and hear from God himself. He will also reveal what his plan is for your life. Some people find out in a short amount of time, while others take longer. Now the stuff about why X happens or this person dies and the other one didn't isn't known to us. But like I said, humans have free will and every bad thing that happens isn't God being cruel or unable to prevent it. It's simply man and the decisions they make and the results of those decisions, example the drunk driver killing some one is a result of them making a foolish decision to drink and drive. Other times, it's just a persons time to die. Everyone has an appointed time to die, some sooner than others.

God is a loving compassionate being. Jesus came and suffered and gave his life for ours when he didn't have to. That's love. If God says, all things work out for good for those that trust in believe me. Why would I constantly question and aruge with him? He isn't a flawed being and he isn't a liar. I don't need to know the reasons behind every occurrence in the universe, as that would probably be to much for humans to bear. I trust him enough to firmly believe that he has things under control, and he doesn't need anyone's opinions about what he should or shouldn't do.

 

[jerkhero]

I'm trying to figure out where's the line of understanding and not understanding God. It has been said many times in this thread that we can't understand God or apply human logic to him, God works in mysterious ways etc. Then how can believers tell that this and that is the way how God wants us to live our lives? The Bible? Like said earlier it was written by humans and people interpret the stories and many just pretty much cherry pick the verses that suit them. I don't know, the whole foundation just seems shaky to me.

Is it just that we can't fully understand God, but sometimes we can? Because seems to me that when for example something negative happens, it's all mysterious ways. But other times people just know how these things go.

 

[Greens]

It's simply man and the decisions they make and the results of those decisions, example the drunk driver killing some one is a result of them making a foolish decision to drink and drive.

God is a loving compassionate being.

I find this hard to believe, because the person who was killed by the drunk driver gets the **** end of the stick, not to mention what their family has to go through.

Everyone's got an appointed time to die, so those people in Hiroshima who suffered horrific burns and died a slow and painful death, it just had to happen that way? That was their appointed time and manner for death? Those stillborn babies due to the radiation sickness, that just had to happen? That was what God had in store for them? You can't say that humans caused this and at the same time talk about God's death schedule. He obviously knew it was going to happen and planned for it to happen, so why?

Jesus came and suffered and gave his life for ours when he didn't have to. That's love.

We've talked about this before. Jesus' "sacrifice" was nothing more than an exploited loophole in God's plan. God created Jesus so he could suffer, but the only reason Jesus had to suffer was because of his dad's ass backward system of sin.

On a different note, I may have asked this question before, but what if I'm incapable of believing in God? My system of logic, my internal guide of the universe prevents me from believing in God. This is beyond my control. I can not force myself to believe in God, just like I can't force myself to believe the Lord of the Rings really happened. Would I still judged for this? Would God judge me on the basis of my human nature, on the basis of how HE made me? I'm not worried, obviously, because I don't believe there is a judge, but Christians make "looking for Jesus" sound really simple even though it's impossible for most people to do.

 

[Human Torch]

Why is the word of God so damn unclear? Am I supposed to side with Matt or with Luke?

It's not really unclear.We are basically told a story from 4 different points of view.

If you ask 4 people to describe a car crash in 100 words,you are going to get variations depending on the details that each observer felt was important to include over others. One might mention the make/color of the car,the other will point out how many were in the back seat,etc.Some things (the fundamentally important elements- I.E the accident itself) will most likely be identical.

So,it's not about "siding" with one over the other.It's taking all information and blending it together to make a cohesive story from the 4 views. As I said before,it actually makes the Bible more trustworthy,since there can't be the claim that the gospel writers made sure all accounts lined up in complete uniformity.

 

[Human Torch]

We've talked about this before. Jesus' "sacrifice" was nothing more than an exploited loophole in God's plan. God created Jesus so he could suffer, but the only reason Jesus had to suffer was because of his dad's ass backward system of sin.

First off Jesus wasn't "created". He always existed with God as part of the Godhead. (The Trinity.)

And 2nd,there wasn't a loophole. It was the plan from the beginning that God would redeem Mankind,because He knew that they would fall away (thanks to that Free Will again) and ransom would have to be paid to restore them to Grace.

 

[Marvolo]

This morning my grandfather had an aneurysm and a stroke, and the doctors have said that there is nothing that can be done for him. He cant breathe on his own and he is unresponsive so my father and my aunt are going to have to decide whether to take him off life support. Im pretty sure they will.

Im terrible at praying so could yall say a prayer or two for his soul?

 

[ShadowBoxer]

This morning my grandfather had an aneurysm and a stroke, and the doctors have said that there is nothing that can be done for him. He cant breathe on his own and he is unresponsive so my father and my aunt are going to have to decide whether to take him off life support. Im pretty sure they will.

Im terrible at praying so could yall say a prayer or two for his soul?

Sending prayers your way.

 

[Human Torch]

This morning my grandfather had an aneurysm and a stroke, and the doctors have said that there is nothing that can be done for him. He cant breathe on his own and he is unresponsive so my father and my aunt are going to have to decide whether to take him off life support. Im pretty sure they will.

Im terrible at praying so could yall say a prayer or two for his soul?

Sure thing,man.

There's no real formula to prayer.Just speak to God from your heart and He'll hear you.

 

[spiderman2]

This morning my grandfather had an aneurysm and a stroke, and the doctors have said that there is nothing that can be done for him. He cant breathe on his own and he is unresponsive so my father and my aunt are going to have to decide whether to take him off life support. Im pretty sure they will.

Im terrible at praying so could yall say a prayer or two for his soul?

Sorry to hear praying for the best.

 

[BatmanVSuperman]

Spiderman 2, my favorite of Raimi's

 

[Human Torch]

I've been generally enjoying A.D. I think the guy that plays Peter has been doing a solid job.

I think they're overplaying Pilate. Seems like they want some drama there. But I doubt that Pilate would be so dense as to keep provoking the populace to rebellion. Heck,the only reason he put Jesus to death (whom he knew to be an innocent) was to prevent rioting.

Another thing that gives me pause is the character of Roman Captain Cornelius. In the bible,his "charitable acts" are what causes God to introduce him to Peter.(so that the Word can be preached,thus saving he and his family) But here,all I've seen him do is abuse,torture and kill. Is this supposed to be the same character?

I thought the Ananias And Sapphira scenes were very good,if somewhat more graphic than I expected.

 

[Isildur´s Heir]

No,it means actions have consequence.And you get what you deserve by your own Free Will.

I think anybody in Adam & Eve's place would've disobeyed God eventually. Such is the cost of Free Will,so it's not like they are held accountable for the sins of mankind.

Once again, we are not talking about the same thing.
The definition of "what goes around, comes around" has no real meaning when we are talking about a "literal" event.
It was literal right? That's what the bible say, right?

So, in the end, i stick by what i said; if Adam & Eve did what they did without God knowing the consequences it would bring, then God is not omniscient; if God made the first sin happen in spite of their disobedience, God is not perfect or loving, he is rather (and using what i said before) a rancorous self-centered bastard.

I particularly like the rationalization of religion in trying to make sense out of this:

It may be hard to see how Adam and Eve’s falling into sin could bring glory to God. In fact, some might even wonder why, if God knew ahead of time all the trouble they would cause, He made them in the first place.
God is omniscient (Psalm 139:1–6), and He knows the future (Isaiah 46:10). So He definitely knew that Adam and Eve would sin. But He created them anyway and gave them a free will with which they chose to sin.

So, God finds glory in....punishing??!!
What an amazing God...

God’s purpose was to create a world in which His glory could be manifest in all its fullness. The glory of God is the overarching goal of creation. In fact, it is the overarching goal of everything He does. The universe was created to display God’s glory (Psalm 19:1), and the wrath of God is revealed against those who fail to glorify God (Romans 1:23). The world that best displays the glory of God is the world we have—a world that was allowed to fall, a world that was redeemed, a world that will be restored to its original perfection

So, in the end, like i said, God is a self-centered bastard.
The world, the universe, us....all was created for his own reverence. It's like a divine self-made pat on the back "you are the best".
Why would a perfect being need to create his own reverence, how arrogant can you be?
But wait, he actually created people to love, and whoever fails, is punished??!!
What an amazing God....i bet he can't get enough of songs like "You're the best around, by Joe Esposito" and "Simply the best, by Tina Turner"

http://www.gotquestions.org/if-God-knew-Adam-Eve-sin.html

Both sound fairly undesirable. I hope you don't take this the wrong way,but your analogies are pretty lacking.

I suppose the bottom line is, I have no business saying who will go to Heaven or Hell.There is only One qualified to make that determination. But Jesus said "A tree can be identified by it's fruit." I certainly doubt a guy that abuses his wife and daughter are prime candidates for Heaven.

They are not lacking since they are not analogies, they are two examples of the motivations behind their actions.
The bottom line is, there is no punishment or reward, no heaven or hell, no judgement from God.

 

[Isildur´s Heir]

God is like parent(...)

It's quite ironic since you said before "They (non-religious) keep trying to put God into this human box and you simply can't."
Like time i checked, "parent" is a "human box".

God doesn't make mistakes or is flawed in anyway.

No?
The Flood....ring a bell?

Genesis 6:7 states, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them.”

There you have it, a mistake and a flaw all wrapped in one.

God is omniscient (Psalm 139:1–6), and He knows the future (Isaiah 46:10).

So, God already knew what would happen before he created us...he did it anyway....and he failed.
Good job Almighty

So wait! Your saying because God gave us free will we should be able to neglect his commands and do whatever the heck we wanna do and he should just pick us up so we can do the same stuff over and over again?

(...)

The point that he was trying to make is that since God gave us free will. We should just do whatever even if we know it's displeasing to God, without any consequences. God and life in general don't work that way.

That's was NOT my point...AT ALL!
It's funny that you see this as an attack to your personal beliefs, which it was rather questioning it, something that you don't seem to do very often.

You are still bounded, not to God, but to yourself, to your consciousness, to your values and to your morals.

Like i said before, i have nothing against people that believe, there are good things that can be taken out of it, and i really blame indoctrination rather than believers.

The bible can be summarized into this: "God is good, God is love, but God will kick your butt if you fall and forget your place, so look in the Church for guidance since they are God's representatives on Earth".
It has propaganda for control written all over it.
The greatest problem of the Church (it was done on purpose) was to make us look for God instead into ourselves.

I'm agnostic deist and even i have a better understanding of what God is than most religious people (of the biblical variety).
Call it arrogant if you want, i'm not saying i have a good understanding, i'm just saying that the biblical view is awful.

God is love, God is pure...if God is love, how the hell does he hate, why the hell does he punished, why the hell did he created everything for his own benefit, why does God demands worship and our destiny depends on it, why...?
The biblical God is not more than a powerful arrogant petty child.

God demands worship because He and He alone is worthy of it.(...)God expects us to worship Him as an expression of reverence and thanksgiving to Him. But God wants even more than that. God also expects us to be obedient to Him.

http://www.gotquestions.org/God-demand-worship.html

God's greatest gift to mankind is the ability to THINK, and if we can think we can question, and if we can question we can make our own choices...the idea that God can punish people depending on their choices is quite ridiculous.

This is my idea of God and i refuse anything else, using the biblical God as a template:
> The vilest of men dies and his brought in God's presence. God stands up from his throne, walks to the man.....EMBRACES him and CRIES.
The only words come from God that asks "can you forgive me?"

THAT is love!

 

[DarkSentinel]

Hey Isildur, do you remember a while back when thousands of people registered their religion as "Jedi" like 5-10 years ago or something like that?

The reason I ask is because I wonder if there are those who literally believe in Eru Ilúvatar or the Valar, despite the fact that Tolkien was a devout Catholic. Just an amusing thought.