Tron Legacy

[J.Howlett]

craig,

Yeah, listened to the same podcast too. Embarrassingly bad to no extent. At first, yeah, I was a bit puzzled as to why this film wouldn't use the obvious idea of how the world of "The Grid" would be in our digital society today.

But, considering how we left Kevin at the end of the first film and where he is at the beginning of this film, it really does make sense that "The Grid 2.0" is on his own private server where he can literally experiment in the digital frontier.

I loved the duality of the father/son story element in this film. I love the God vs. Lucifer element to this story. I love the idea of what Quorra really is and what her purpose might be in our world and in the world of the Grid (in hopefully future installements). I love the idea of the imperfect God that's weaved into the story. I love the very opening of the film that implies that the digital world and our world are essentially the same and what those implications might actually mean when it comes to "bio-digital jazz" (which is the most important phrase in the entire film if you really think about what he's saying....

Spoiler

a biological artificial intelligence

).

And, it does in fact come together...even if in some instances, the writers are world building which can be seen as a copout or unnecessary.

ttotheusher,

You hit the nail on the head with "the idea's beyond what is directly stated". The film is literally bursting at the seams with these ideas...that are not hard to come to an interesting answer on your own terms. I just loved that in this film.

 

[J.Howlett]

craig,

Still, the notion of a

Spoiler

biological artificial intelligence

is startling to me. Personally, I have a slight fear of artificial intelligence. I mean, just the basic idea of what it is and what it come become...but add the world bio to the front of it shakes me to my core.

I don't know why. I can't explain it.

Spoiler

What I really love about Quorra is what they might be setting her up to be. Personally, I think she's being set up as some sort of messiah...but of which world? Kevin lets us know what the Iso's could do for our world...that's going to be an interesting idea to explain. But, what about the Grid? There is no order within the Grid after the destruction of CLU. With her being the last Iso, what does she mean for the programs of the Grid now?

 

[craigdbfan]

Many excellent observations there J and I agree the movie was very poetic and while that might have not worked for some thats the very same way I viewed the first Tron.

Both movies gave me that sense of elation of the very idea of being alive and being engaged with the materials around us. I love the fact that its always been Flynns personal world and what I found neat is that his job as a video game developer clearly ends up influencing the world of Tron which is initially just a fun little side project.

The line between creating a world and making a game are blurred and what you end up seeing more is a reflection of the person who created the entire system. Which in this case would be Kevin Flynn with the the help of Alan and their program counterparts.

 

[J.Howlett]

The other aspect that I liked about the film is that it gave a new definition to the word Tron. Let's be honest, both films are not, in fact, about the character of Tron.

But, at least with this film, the idea/word of Tron gets a new definition...a new spin. It's a small detail but it's there in the film.

 

[J.Howlett]

craig,

On the money again.

 

[JAK®]

I must be from another planet or universe because Legacy owns my ass right now. I'm just kind of flabbergasted at the response from critics on this film.

There's big ideas floating in this film that are really, really interesting. This whole notion that this film doesn't have a coherent story or purpose kind of stuns me. Did we watch the same film?

I haven't seen the film yet but I can guess that if what you say is true then it's probably down to what happens with every big visual effects movie like this one. People say "Yeah, well it LOOKED good, but the STORY was weak" simply because they like to look sophisticated. It happened to Avatar (in spades), Watchmen and many others.

In some cases it is true but in others it's obvious they only say it because the film has a lot of effects; therefore the story is weak.

 

[J.Howlett]

JAK,

Well, I'm in the "can't stand Avatar...it's Cameron's weakest film by a mile" boat but I do agree with your assessment.

But, and this is not to take away from the accomplishment of Avatar, but Legacy has WAY more interesting ideas that Avatar.

Yeah, both films share respective ideas and details from different films over the years, but at least with Legacy, it's not note for note, beat for beat like another film in the way Avatar is.

 

[PreK]

Great interview J. They really tapped into what I most enjoyed about the film, the idea's beyond what is directly stated. Like, what implications do the Iso's have in the real world?

The fact that this sort of stuff is in a 250 million dollar film and people are still insulting it baffles me. Weren't these the same people who were saying "intelligent sci-fi" is back when District 9 came out?

The concepts were there. It just wasn't explored or handled well. I didn't come out of the film feeling enlightened or engrossed by the themes that were introduced. Instead, I felt very empty because that's exactly what the film felt like.

District 9 and Moon developed their core ideas well enough, even if it wasn't really all that special. However I'd rather cite films such as Primer, Gattaca, Code 46, A.I., Minority Report -- as films that delved deeply into the ramifications of technology on the human condition and society as a whole. As any good sci-film should.

I wished Tron did that. You have no idea how hard I was pulling for this film over the past 2 years. It just did not click with me on any level. As a hardcore sci-fi fan, the fact that they had all this gleaming potential and didn't jump on it would be the most disappointing aspect of it all. I'd group this right with Avatar and Terminator Salvation in that regard.

 

[Donut]

Spoiler

Because the Isomorphs had a DNA structure that was incorruptible unlike programs and users even.

This means that once she was in our world they could somehow study her DNA and somehow be able to introduce it at the in vitro stage or something like that. I'm no biology major so I may be way off with my idea here but I think thats the basic gist.

They could also solve a ton of diseases and other illnesses I'm sure like Flynn mentioned.

I wonder if part of the Sequel could be Sam takes a sample of her DNA & then gives it to the Government or whatever & those people are amazed & then Sam refuses to tell them the source but they find out anyway & then captures Quorra & then part of the movie is Sam getting her back into The Grid since that would be the safest place for her ?

 

[J.Howlett]

Prek,

What concept did it not explore? I think I know what you're talking about but I think it touches on the concept enough to get a basic idea of what it is...I don't think we need a detail analysis of how said concept works.

The concept is introduced and you get an idea of its implications. Now, in a bit of world building, I think we'll obviously get more of this concept in the sequel...IF IT HAPPENS.

 

[JAK®]

When I hear that a story is 'weak', to me that means it is badly told.

Avatar has a story that is very familiar to us.

But does that make it badly told? I don't think it was. I think that the story, while unoriginal, was well done. The visuals made it different. Some say that the visuals mean nothing, they're wrong. Because the effects and the 3D changed everything. I remember scenes like they were places I had visited instead of just something I watched on a screen.

I imagine Tron Legacy isn't much different. But then again I haven't seen it.

 

[J.Howlett]

JAK,

I'll give you that.

 

[PreK]

Prek,

What concept did it not explore? I think I know what you're talking about but I think it touches on the concept enough to get a basic idea of what it is...I don't think we need a detail analysis of how said concept works.

It didn't explore much of anything. Even if 'touched' upon, that's still a problem. From a narrative standpoint it's lazy. Practically everything amounted to:

- introduce concept
- show flashback
- in dialog form summarize the grand idea

...that's it. If someone were to actually time the relevance said themes had on the movie, through the character's actions or moving the plot, I'd be flabbergasted if it lasted more than 3 minutes.

The concept is introduced and you get an idea of its implications. Now, in a bit of world building, I think we'll obviously get more of this concept in the sequel...IF IT HAPPENS.

Why wait? These concepts are significant to the film the moment it begins. It's illogical to ignore that. Think of 3 or so sci-fi films that had great social commentary. Now imagine it was stripped to its bare essentials because it theoretically could be explored in a sequel. By any angle you look at it, that film is weaker because of it.

 

[ttotheusher]

The concepts were there. It just wasn't explored or handled well. I didn't come out of the film feeling enlightened or engrossed by the themes that were introduced. Instead, I felt very empty because that's exactly what the film felt like.

District 9 and Moon developed their core ideas well enough, even if it wasn't really all that special. However I'd rather cite films such as Primer, Gattaca, Code 46, A.I., Minority Report -- as films that delved deeply into the ramifications of technology on the human condition and society as a whole. As any good sci-film should.

I wished Tron did that. You have no idea how hard I was pulling for this film over the past 2 years. It just did not click with me on any level. As a hardcore sci-fi fan, the fact that they had all this gleaming potential and didn't jump on it would be the most disappointing aspect of it all. I'd group this right with Avatar and Terminator Salvation in that regard.

I think the interview that J. Howlett posted pretty much summed up a lot of my thought's on the film. I dont want films like this to speak down to me and explain what there trying to get out. Figuring out what they mean and putting your own spin is part of the fun.

Also, putting this film in the same league as Avatar and T:S is, in my opinion, madness. Neither film, even from an entertainment standpoint, were as good as Tron: Legacy. But hey, that's just my opinion, I'm not trying to argue. I love the fact that people are different enough to form there own opinions.

 

[PreK]

I think the interview that J. Howlett posted pretty much summed up a lot of my thought's on the film. I dont want films like this to speak down to me and explain what there trying to get out. Figuring out what they mean and putting your own spin is part of the fun.

I'm not a fan of driving-the-point home either. If you have to jam the thematic significance down the audience's throats, you're not very talented. Conversely, simply planting the idea there and hoping it gets picked up on isn't any more creative. They're both terrible methods.

Subtlety and finesse is key to expressing the core of the script. The films I cited are prime examples in the genre of how to properly address it. In any case, I doubt Tron Legacy could have done much better with a more experienced director. The hollow script is the culprit here.

 

[J.Howlett]

Prek,

You're really only talking about one idea in a sea of other ideas within the film that do get explored and have a conclusion by the end of the film.

The idea of artificial intelligence in hardcore sci-fiction is not new. It's frankly been done to death. But by adding the word biological to it, it changed the idea of it and what implications of said idea could be. Yeah, we don't get the specifics but I'm not entirely sure we need to...because the idea of the Isomorphs do in fact lead back to the religious overtones within the film that get greatly explored along side the father/son storyline...

 

[Frodo]

I really didn't have a problem with the film , but then again I didn't come in with expectations . I took it for what it was and I was entertained through out. Imo, not every sci fi film is gonna be a Bladerunner , Matrix, or Inception. The film was a fun popcorn ride that you could check your brain at the door with.

I think with films like Tron:Legacy and even with Avatar , it depends on what you come into the theater expecting or wanting to see which may determine whether you like the film or not. I went into Clash of the Titans just looking for a film to kill an afternoon. I didn't think I was gonna see Ben Hur or 300 . Now I don't remember a single thing from that film now but I was entertained for the time I was there.Lol.

 

[craigdbfan]

People keep bringing up the point that the Isomorphs are to "vague".

What more is there to get? They where a natural occurrence of fully manifested human life within the grid without the assistance of Flynn or a program it was spontaneous.

The implications of having this being transported into our world is significant as Flynn said due to it solving many answers to diseases and illness that plague humanity. This is because an Isomorphs DNA is incorruptible.

I don't know what other ideas "weren't" explored. I really think people are reaching with some of the criticism here. I do agree with PreK that they could have dealt with the Isomorph purge a whole lot better without all the exposition for that certain part.

Everything else though I thought was pretty well thought out.

 

[J.Howlett]

The other core concept of the film is freedom, but in a digital sense...information free in the digital world. Now, this is CLU's entire purpose through out the film. It mirrors young Flynn's proclamation at the beginning of the film when he talks about the "digital frontier". And yet, we come to learn within the film that Flynn doesn't believe in the idea of information being free or not because of the implications of what would happen if CLU, because of his programming, got free within our world....

...that concept is explored to the very end...

 

[J.Howlett]

craig,

But, I don't see how else you could deal with "The Purge" given how we get the information in the film. I mean, we get a flashback of what Flynn was up to and why he didn't come back to Sam. Within that flashback, we get to the "miracle" that he described to his son and what happened to said miracle.

I just don't see how it could be any different....

 

[PreK]

Prek,

You're really only talking about one idea in a sea of other ideas within the film that do get explored and have a conclusion by the end of the film.

No, I'm talking about everything. I'm curious as to what 'sea of other ideas' you are referring to. Much less those that were explored. Would you care to cite specific moments in the film as proof?

The idea of artificial intelligence in hardcore sci-fiction is not new. It's frankly been done to death. But by adding the word biological to it, it changed the idea of it and what implications of said idea could be.

Biological artificial intelligence is just as old as any conventional sci-fi trope. Just not as widely highlighted in film.

Yeah, we don't get the specifics but I'm not entirely sure we need to...because the idea of the Isomorphs do in fact lead back to the religious overtones within the film that get greatly explored along side the father/son storyline...

You keep bringing up these talking points. Where were these ideas explored? How were they depicted? For how long? "Greatly explored" is a precise declaration of its existence in the film. Problem is many, including myself, have failed to find any semblance of it during our viewing. So please go into more detail so I can have a clearer idea of what I'm replying to.

 

[craigdbfan]

craig,

But, I don't see how else you could deal with "The Purge" given how we get the information in the film. I mean, we get a flashback of what Flynn was up to and why he didn't come back to Sam. Within that flashback, we get to the "miracle" that he described to his son and what happened to said miracle.

I just don't see how it could be any different....

True. I didn't really have a problem with the scene but it wouldn't of hurt to give more show than tell in that scene but it was enough for me honestly and was pretty effective. It just could have been more effective in that regard.

The other core concept of the film is freedom, but in a digital sense...information free in the digital world. Now, this is CLU's entire purpose through out the film. It mirrors young Flynn's proclamation at the beginning of the film when he talks about the "digital frontier". And yet, we come to learn within the film that Flynn doesn't believe in the idea of information being free or not because of the implications of what would happen if CLU, because of his programming, got free within our world....

...that concept is explored to the very end...

Well said.

Like Flynn said when he attempted to input order and control into the grid he'd come to realize that all that was pointless, "I'd been living in a hall of mirrors".

 

[J.Howlett]

Prek,

I honestly thought the God vs. Lucifer aspect was the biggest one. I mean, it's not like it's hidden in the subtext. I thought it was pretty much the text of the film.

 

[PreK]

Prek,

I honestly thought the God vs. Lucifer aspect was the biggest one. I mean, it's not like it's hidden in the subtext. I thought it was pretty much the text of the film.

You misread me. I know of the various subtexts present in the movie. If there's one thing everyone can agree on, it'd be that it's not hard to point them out. I'm asking specifically how these themes were explored. Perhaps we have differing definitions, but I am under the impression it goes beyond a few dialog exchanges and flashback expositions.

 

[J.Howlett]

craig,

I guess you could've shown more of the Purge but we do get a sense of what the Purge was like at the very beginning of the film once Sam gets in the Grid and at the End of Line Club.

CLU has been weeding out the programs that have rebelled against "his" Utopia. We see what that has amassed to towards the very end of the film with the repurposing of those programs.

With the Iso's, he couldn't do that. Genocide was his only way to weed those out because of their very nature...