The Dark Knight Two years later: Heath Ledger's performance

[ALP]

Mr Bolland did. I like him best too, and Alex Ross.

 

[The Joker]

Bolland, Breyfogle, and Graham Nolan and Scott Hanna do the best Jokers IMO.

 

[KalMart]

 

[The Joker]

^^^ The lips should be red.

 

[itsthebatman]

They are red later on, he puts lipstick on. I think. It's a dog's age since I read TDKR.

 

[itsthebatman]

I like Doug Mahnke's Joker as well, from TMWL. But Bolland's beats all.

 

[The Joker]

They are red later on, he puts lipstick on. I think. It's a dog's age since I read TDKR.

Right you are. But Joker's lips should be naturally red.

Btw, good to see you around again.

 

[KalMart]

I believe the color style of that panel was meant to be desaturated/washed out...hence the similar skin tone of the patients behind Joker, even though they're probably pale.

 

[Brother Jack]

I believe the color style of that panel was meant to be desaturated/washed out...hence the similar skin tone of the patients behind Joker, even though they're probably pale.

It is, but in the story Joker's lips aren't naturally red. He wears lipstick, which is probably partially where the design of Ledger's Joker came from.

 

[KalMart]

It is, but in the story Joker's lips aren't naturally red. He wears lipstick, which is probably partially where the design of Ledger's Joker came from.

Yeah, I guess you could see it that way. I just loved that portrayal in the book. Kinda' Mick Jagger meets Willem Dafoe...just really twisted, but more of a reserved sinister vibe.

 

[ALP]

It is, but in the story Joker's lips aren't naturally red. He wears lipstick, which is probably partially where the design of Ledger's Joker came from.

I'm not really a big fan of the design of Ledger's Joker or DKR's Joker. I fully accept them as different takes on the character and definitely appreciate that though. I also recall another person in the comics saying that their rendition of the Joker puts on makeup and dyes his hair. I think it may have been Alex Ross but I can't be too sure.

but The Dark Knight Returns and Joker are literally the only two comics I've come across where Mark Hamill's voice is not in my head.(well except for cheesy 50s comics then I imagine everyone from the Adam West show) In "Joker" I hear Heath Ledger, in DKR I'm not sure who I hear. It's just a low pitch but fem voice. Might be Ru-Paul

 

[KalMart]

I'm not really a big fan of the design of Ledger's Joker or DKR's Joker. I fully accept them as different takes on the character and definitely appreciate that though. I also recall another person in the comics saying that their rendition of the Joker puts on makeup and dyes his hair. I think it may have been Alex Ross but I can't be too sure.

but The Dark Knight Returns and Joker are literally the only two comics I've come across where Mark Hamill's voice is not in my head.(well except for cheesy 50s comics then I imagine everyone from the Adam West show) In "Joker" I hear Heath Ledger, in DKR I'm not sure who I hear. It's just a low pitch but fem voice. Might be Ru-Paul

Hamill's work in the animated versions was wonderful. My favorite ones are the 'World's Finest' trio and 'Return Of the Joker', the latter especially where they really pushed it to the edge. Great work all around.

I also get what you're saying about DKR...there was something eerily androgynous about the way he was portrayed in that (outside of the 'pet names' for Batman, of course). Also something classically 'punk rock' about him, as well.

 

[Brother Jack]

Miller said he based him off of David Bowie, so there ya go. I was also a fan of his portrayal in DKR, because the darker, more stone cold vibe fit with the story. This was a guy who was catatonic for a decade, only coming back to consciousness after seeing Batman's return. He knew this would be their last battle so he did all he could to finally get Bats to kill him, i.e. killing boyscouts. You run into problems when you take that characterization and put him in less extreme surroundings, which is one reason why I didn't like Joker.

 

[Mr. Joker Risin']

DUUUUUUUUUUUUUDE, it's not just visual aesthetics of TDK-Joker that I don't like, there's MUCH more that I wasn't fond of, but I've done these debates so many times now. And yes, perma-white skin should be the "injustice I'm making it out to be". Joker isn't supposed to be able to take of his "mask"(escape his persona), it's supposed to be with him forever, while Batman is able to.

You're missing the bigger picture. You are correct that a huge defining charicteristic of the Joker is not being able to "take off his mask", but you're being too specific. The perma-white skin isn't what makes up the Joker's mask, it's the fact that he is permanantly scarred to look like a clown. That's what he can't take off. That's where the Heath interpretation varies. The comics mostly have the perma-white skin and red lips as his clown scarring. Nolan decided that his Joker's clown scarring is his permanant chelsea grin. He can take off the make-up, but he will always have the permanant smile no matter what. That is his "mask" that he can never take off or hide in order to be considered "normal" again.

I was iffy about this same exact issue when I first saw the leaked pics with the make-up, that it might not be faithful, but sure enough, Nolan handled it perfectly and proved he understood the core of the character. So if you think that not being perma-white looses this characteristic and doesn't stay faithful, then you're just missing the point...

 

[elgaz]

Getting back to the original question ..............

I watched TDK the other night again, and every time I watch it I'm more impressed by Ledger's performance. He really played it absolutely perfectly; by that, I don't mean his interpretation of the Joker is perfect (as every single viewer will have their own image of the Joker), but his portrayal was perfectly consistent. The mannerisms, the look, the voice, the behaviour, everything. It's plain to see from watching TDK exactly how he lost himself in the role for months. And when I watch it, I really, really make an effort not to wear any rose-tinted glasses - the fact that Ledger is dead has no bearing on my feelings about his work. I try and judge his performance purely on its merit.

On my first viewing, I was obviously impressed by his performance, but on repeat viewings you can take the liberty of focusing less on the storyline and more on the little nuances that Ledger brought to the role. Things like the twitch every now and again, the rubbing of his tongue behind his lips, random acts like hanging out the window of the police car. All of these combine together to form a picture of a man who worships chaos, and whose very own body language is chaotic.

If you were to name a few memorable and iconic villains who have truly ingrained themselves into public culture over the last few decades, only a few spring to mind - Agent Smith from the Matrix movies, Hannibal Lecter from Silence of the Lambs, etc. Ledger as the Joker would be very near the top of that list IMO.

 

[Travesty]

You're missing the bigger picture. You are correct that a huge defining charicteristic of the Joker is not being able to "take off his mask", but you're being too specific. The perma-white skin isn't what makes up the Joker's mask, it's the fact that he is permanantly scarred to look like a clown. That's what he can't take off. That's where the Heath interpretation varies. The comics mostly have the perma-white skin and red lips as his clown scarring. Nolan decided that his Joker's clown scarring is his permanant chelsea grin. He can take off the make-up, but he will always have the permanant smile no matter what. That is his "mask" that he can never take off or hide in order to be considered "normal" again.

But that's the ENTIRE point of The Joker, that he looks like a clown at all times. I understand that he's scarred and can't take that away, and to tell you the truth, I like the scars, I just don't like the make-up angle, cause he can still take that off, and look like a regular DUDE with scars. And it's not just the make-up that bothers me about TDK-Joker, there's a lot of other things, but that was just one I pointed out.

I was iffy about this same exact issue when I first saw the leaked pics with the make-up, that it might not be faithful, but sure enough, Nolan handled it perfectly and proved he understood the core of the character. So if you think that not being perma-white looses this characteristic and doesn't stay faithful, then you're just missing the point...

Again, like I said, there's a lot of other things, but the non-permawhite doesn't help from not feeling like a true representation of the character to me.

I like the look of TDK-Joker. I've been on board with it since day one, and I still like it, but what I don't like, is that it's white make-up that he uses to transform into The Joker. He should always be white. He should look like a clown at all times, instead of having to get his mascara out. Do you not understand that having perma-white skin is what makes him unique? ANYBODY can put on makeup and call themselves The Joker, but The Joker is supposed to be a freak, not just a guy with a scar on his face with a gimmicky makeup routine.

I dunno, I just don't like it at all. The Joker is supposed to disguise himself to look normal, not just wipe away a mask, cause he is normal.

 

[Brother Jack]

I like the look of TDK-Joker. I've been on board with it since day one, and I still like it, but what I don't like, is that it's white make-up that he uses to transform into The Joker. He should always be white. He should look like a clown at all times, instead of having to get his mascara out. Do you not understand that having perma-white skin is what makes him unique? ANYBODY can put on makeup and call themselves The Joker, but The Joker is supposed to be a freak, not just a guy with a scar on his face with a gimmicky makeup routine.

Well technically speaking anyone in the comics could dunk themselves in a vat of those chemicals and look like the Joker, in fact that's exactly what happened to Jack Ryder. The uniqueness comes from the personality and philosophy, which Nolan's Joker absolutely had. For me, the scars were an adequate substitute for the chemical bleaching.

 

[Original Spawn]

Well technically speaking anyone in the comics could dunk themselves in a vat of those chemicals and look like the Joker, in fact that's exactly what happened to Jack Ryan. The uniqueness comes from the personality and philosophy, which Nolan's Joker absolutely had. For me, the scars were an adequate substitute for the chemical bleaching.

You couldn´t be more right

 

[Travesty]

Well technically speaking anyone in the comics could dunk themselves in a vat of those chemicals and look like the Joker, in fact that's exactly what happened to Jack Ryder. The uniqueness comes from the personality and philosophy, which Nolan's Joker absolutely had. For me, the scars were an adequate substitute for the chemical bleaching.

Well, who really knew how The Joker transformed into being a permawhite clown, besides maybe Batman? That's like saying ANYBODY from the Minutemen team(Watchmen) can become a God like Dr. Manhattan, by stepping into a "Intrinsic Field Subtractor". That's what makes these characters unique, in not only origin, but in a supernatural sense. If all you want to do is deconstruct the character, yet still get his personality correct, that in itself, isn't doing the character any justice, in fact, it's doing quite the opposite.

The Joker isn't supposed to be able to escape his persona/skin/mask: Bottom line. So are you saying, if they made a movie about Batman, and how he wanted to avenge his family, and at that time, fell into a vat of chemical, transforming him into a living bat(like Man-Bat), yet his character was intact(except for the not being able to take off his "skin" part), that it would still be true to the Batman character? See, that's how I view TDK-Joker in a sense(if you get what I'm saying). Oh, it wold still be a morally right Batman, but he doesn't have a costume, he's just always a Bat-Man.

 

[KalMart]

Miller said he based him off of David Bowie, so there ya go. I was also a fan of his portrayal in DKR, because the darker, more stone cold vibe fit with the story. This was a guy who was catatonic for a decade, only coming back to consciousness after seeing Batman's return. He knew this would be their last battle so he did all he could to finally get Bats to kill him, i.e. killing boyscouts. You run into problems when you take that characterization and put him in less extreme surroundings, which is one reason why I didn't like Joker.

Ah, I remember that now. Totally.

 

[KalMart]

Also...I don't see the white makeup in TDK as something he has to put on to become the Joker. I think he is the Joker through-and-through, and the makeup completes the picture more for him than to show to others. It's when he takes it off that he's in disguise. So even though it's makeup, to him it's part of his natural body now....his true form....which symbolically serves the same purpose as being permawhite.

 

[Travesty]

Also...I don't see the white makeup in TDK as something he has to put on to become the Joker.

But he does. Why else does he reapply the makeup throughout the movie?

I think he is the Joker through-and-through, and the makeup completes the picture more for him than to show to others.

Again, that misses the point of a person who "had a bad day", and transformed into a "freak"without asking for it.

It's when he takes it off that he's in disguise. So even though it's makeup, to him it's part of his natural body now....his true form....which symbolically serves the same purpose as being permawhite.

So Batman can defeat his persona by throwing water on him, by taking him out of his "natural body"? Sorry, bro, I just don't buy it.

 

[KalMart]

But he does. Why else does he reapply the makeup throughout the movie?

I answered that later in the paragraph.

Again, that misses the point of a person who "had a bad day", and transformed into a "freak"without asking for it.

Not really...he could just as easily had as bad of a day which resulted in the scarring which he didn't ask for, with the makeup just being part of the whole that he adopted along the way..and now inseparable except when in disguise.

So Batman can defeat his persona by throwing water on him, by taking him out of his "natural body"? Sorry, bro, I just don't buy it.

No more than Joker can defeat Batman simply by ripping his cape. It's replaceable, but essential.

Could the Batman of the comics defeat Joker with some sort of corrective skin surgery to give him his color-tone back?

 

[The Joker]

Well technically speaking anyone in the comics could dunk themselves in a vat of those chemicals and look like the Joker, in fact that's exactly what happened to Jack Ryder. The uniqueness comes from the personality and philosophy, which Nolan's Joker absolutely had. For me, the scars were an adequate substitute for the chemical bleaching.

Exactly. Removing Batman's cape and cowl doesn't change his psychology or drive to do justice. Putting a cape and cowl on anyone else doesn't make them Batman, either.

Much like bleaching someone's skin doesn't automatically make them the Joker.

 

[Travesty]

No more than Joker can defeat Batman simply by ripping his cape. It's replaceable, but essential.

But that's happened MANY of times in the comics and movies. The Cape and mask ISN'T a part of Batman, it's his disguise, sure, but it's not apart of his body. The Joker on the other hand, shouldn't be able to have his white skin taken out. Batman's cape can be replaced, but Joker's skin is eternal, until he dies.....

Could the Batman of the comics defeat Joker with some sort of corrective skin surgery to give him his color-tone back?

That's taking it a little to far, now isn't it? Sure, hypothetically, he could, but he hasn't, nor has that EVER been a part of the mythos, which is what we're taking about. Not the "what-ifs", but the "what-ares". Could Batman become Superman, and start to fly, etc? Sure, in the same perfect world where hypotheticals can be exaggerated for debate, like this one.