The Dark Knight War On Terror: TDK

[Nepenthes]

I've been thinking a bit more about the subtext in TDK and how it may end up being much more signifigant than I earlier expected. There are alot of connections and parrallels, some subtle, some not so much, but whether they are intentional or not (and I believe some of them have to be) people will always interpret films and even superhero films in terms of current events. I thought it would be interesting to have a thread about this before the movie is released, because I think this subtext is gonna come out in alot of reviews and discussion after TDK. Who has noticed these themes? What are they? How are they gonna affect the way TDK is recieved?

 

[sglass03]

I believe both Nolan and Bale have confirmed in interviews that TDK has a bit of an allegorical feel to it regarding the war on terror, and so I think you're right on the mark about that.

However, I don't think "TDK" is injecting any political commentary, per se, into public discourse. In other words, I think they've avoided proposing a Republican or Democrat (or conservative or liberal) viewpoint, or even endorsing how to deal with mass anarchy.

It seems, rather, that "TDK" will be kind of like a mirror image of today's society - it will reflect our own battles and struggle with how to deal with extremism. There are many who will be tempted to do it independent of traditional means (Batman, for instance, doing his own kind of vigilante justice), while others will want to use the law (Dent.) Others, still, will want to find a third way ("bend but don't break," like Gordon.)

There is no doubt, however, that Joker is a terrorist. He's not the kind of terrorist we're used to (the kind that have both political and religious motives behind their work, like those we see in the Middle East, Northern Ireland, and even Oklahoma City many years back.) He's a terrorist for terrorist's sake - meaninglessness for the sake of meaninglessnes.

It will definitely resonate with audiences - probably much more than it would have before 9/11 and Iraq and everything else - but at the end of the day, it's still Batman, which has been around for nearly 70 years. I'm sure there's a metaphor here and there, but I'm guessing the bulk of the film is still about personal battles (Bruce's, Dent's, Gordon's, etc.) rather than political symbolism.

 

[kloro]

In the Name of God, Most Beneficent, Most Merciful
===========================================

It is not for I be Musslin , but do not believe that the production(warner) would go to use a hero who is one of the few accepted American symbols as leader by the world in behalf of an imperialistic cause .

The joker does that's it , which the difference of this joker for the of the film of 89 in terms of goal ? anything .

The joker of 89 also was an anarchist and turbulent , played 20 million dollars in the street and attracted thousands of people to kill with the gas smilex .

I do not see anything again in this joker , outside that he is seriate most.

Stay with God

 

[DAMU RYDER]

^^ i agree, the movie is not that deep. its just a comic book based movie.

 

[Spidey-Sean]

I like this stuff and think it's worth talking about; I was always wondering if anyone would start a thread on it because I didn't know if many people were interested in talking about it. Or, possibly, if it was just "too hot" for the boards to touch on (i.e. the arguments about the burning bat symbol poster, many people didn't want to even entertain that idea that the potential WTC imagery and relevant caption overhead and just shot the idea down without even letting a discussion happen).

Part of my theory with Batman is that the moral standards/values he has will slowly deteriorate/erode as he becomes wrapped up in the fight against the Joker, hence the creation of the "Dark Knight". Bruce's quote; "I see now what I have to become to stop men like him" suggests to me a darker more violent shift in his character, but to the detriment of what Batman stands for.

By the end of the film however, after being tempted to "break his one rule" by the Joker, I imagine Batman will find a way to prevent himself from losing his moral highground (if he killed the Joker), yet still be able to capture/incapacitate the Joker. I could similarly see a parallel with the United States and traditional rules of engagement that have been increasingly replaced over the years on the "war on terror" with harsher interrogation tactics, suspension of Habeus Corpus, ignoring the international agreements of the Geneva Conventions etc.; in other words, the rules of the Constitution and moral values traditionally followed by U.S. foreign policy. I think the film, if it took this route, would likely have Batman turn back to his traditional values by the end of the film. I don't think it would necessarily have him fall into complete "darkness", or a complete forsaking of what he started out believing in.

Of course, I haven't seen the film so I don't know if Batman will be portrayed as the Dark Knight because of his actions like above (just a theory) or maybe just his emotional state/psychological confusion or some other meaning, maybe Nolan will explore all of this, we'll have to see.

(Of course, I also think the larger philosophical ideas the contemporary issues wrap around are really interesting too, and characters like Batman and the Joker are incredibly deep and fun to analyze; example; the Joker as a postmodern character with a similar meaningless/nihilistic world outlook vs. Batman's more traditional world view as one that values society and sees it as something that can grow and become better, instead of just continuing on without value.)

 

[The Battousai]

In the Name of God, Most Beneficent, Most Merciful
===========================================

It is not for I be Musslin , but do not believe that the production(warner) would go to use a hero who is one of the few accepted American symbols as leader by the world in behalf of an imperialistic cause .

The joker does that's it , which the difference of this joker for the of the film of 89 in terms of goal ? anything .

The joker of 89 also was an anarchist and turbulent , played 20 million dollars in the street and attracted thousands of people to kill with the gas smilex .

I do not see anything again in this joker , outside that he is seriate most.

Stay with God

^ Random

 

[Gilpesh]

I guess the Joker can stand for all terrorists.

It really doesn't matter what random reason they terrorize people for... they're bad people.

 

[Kaizer104]

I guess the Joker can stand for all terrorists.

It really doesn't matter what random reason they terrorize people for... they're bad people.

Not everything is THAT completely black and white. To some countries, the US as a whole is a bunch of terrorists. Does that make the US a bunch of bad people? Not all of them in the least. It's a similar concept for whom we perceive as terrorists; some think they're doing the right and good/noble thing to help their countries and families. Sure, there are some pretty horrible people on both sides but not everyone who is registered as a terrorist is on the level of say Joker or even half of there.

I feel that The Dark Knight will likely touch on a few of these issues but it will show multiple viewpoints on it. We already have 3 blatant ones: Batman's, Gordon's, and Dent's views on what is going on and should be done. But to truly and fully understand and decipher any meaning of a political nature we all need to actually view the movie first.

 

[ronny]

In the Name of God, Most Beneficent, Most Merciful
===========================================

It is not for I be Musslin , but do not believe that the production(warner) would go to use a hero who is one of the few accepted American symbols as leader by the world in behalf of an imperialistic cause .

The joker does that's it , which the difference of this joker for the of the film of 89 in terms of goal ? anything .

The joker of 89 also was an anarchist and turbulent , played 20 million dollars in the street and attracted thousands of people to kill with the gas smilex .

I do not see anything again in this joker , outside that he is seriate most.

Stay with God

I'm sorry, "Imperialistic"? You think that this war is just an excuse to grab land? **** you, America didn't start it. Maybe you missed it but a bunch of Muslim extremists crashed two planes into the World Trade Centre. And if you don't think that they have the right to defend themselves then you and your fractured English can go **** yourselves.

 

[The Battousai]

I'm sorry, "Imperialistic"? You think that this war is just an excuse to grab land? **** you, America didn't start it. Maybe you missed it but a bunch of Muslim extremists crashed two planes into the World Trade Centre. And if you don't think that they have the right to defend themselves then you and your fractured English can go **** yourselves.

While I'm not going to plain disagree with you, I do disagree with your obviously blind faith in a government that has ****ed us while bending over backwards to their every whim until we finally realized that we weren't benefiting from it in any way.

 

[ronny]

While I'm not going to plain disagree with you, I do disagree with your obviously blind faith in a government that has ****ed us while bending over backwards to their every whim until we finally realized that we weren't benefiting from it in any way.

It's not the American government I have blind faith in. It's the fact that the American people have the moral high ground in this matter. And a man who tries to pass off your country as some modern day Nazi state is obviously ignorant and in need of some perspective.
He's calling this cause "Imperialistic" and what it probably boils down to is that he dislikes America, dislikes Americans and begrudges you the right to strike back at the barbarians and savages who started this whole damn thing.

 

[Figs]

Good thread Nepenthes!

I'll feel better commenting about it more after I've seen the movie though.

 

[Why Are You Crouching Spock?]

Batman is George Bush kicking ass and all the other pretend batmans are the less important country's no one cares about following him blindly because he's awesome. The joker is from a country with sand.

 

[The Battousai]

It's not the American government I have blind faith in. It's the fact that the American people have the moral high ground in this matter. And a man who tries to pass off your country as some modern day Nazi state is obviously ignorant and in need of some perspective.
He's calling this cause "Imperialistic" and what it probably boils down to is that he dislikes America, dislikes Americans and begrudges you the right to strike back at the barbarians and savages who started this whole damn thing.

I hope you aren't assuming that a small group of extremists represent the entirety of those countries.

And what exactly are you getting at with "moral high ground"?

 

[ronny]

I hope you aren't assuming that a small group of extremists represent the entirety of those countries.

I've certainly tried not to.

 

[BatoutofHell]

Oh. This is going south. I think I can get it closed by just going straight to where this is ending up.

**** god and **** the government. **** Sean Hannity and **** Religious fanatics.

 

[Hobodeluxe]

Batman is George Bush kicking ass and all the other pretend batmans are the less important country's no one cares about following him blindly because he's awesome. The joker is from a country with sand.

fail.

Now if Batman was this huge bully and the Joker was a small ,nearly helpless guy with some oil that the bully beat up and then stole his oil then you might have an allegory.

I vote we close this thread before it turns into a political flamewar.

 

[BatoutofHell]

fail.

Now if Batman was this huge bully and the Joker was a small ,nearly helpless guy with some oil that the bully beat up and then stole his oil then you might have an allegory.

I vote we close this thread before it turns into a political flamewar.

Pretty sure you two agree, but you don't get the joke. Pretty sure.

Either way, I'll try again to help you close it.

**** god. **** the government. **** Sean Hannity and **** religious wackos out for 72 clueless ****s.

 

[Sharkboy]

Where was it, that i read? "Superman represents what america thinks of itself, and batman is how everybody else views america".

I think thats an excellent way of looking at these characters.

Oh btw i think you should all cool it with the heated political debate, or this threads gone.

 

[kloro]

In the Name of God, Most Beneficent, Most Merciful
===========================================

Friend ronny that is its things vision .

I talked that the joker at moment some seems an extremist

See for its example attack citation the new York . For you that was initiate it of something , more for million other people that is the sequence of something . People of several parts of the world has been being attacked by the USA in years 90 ( govern Bill Clinton ) , USA put sadam in the power , it trained taliban , invaded Irak in 1990 , bombarded Libya , somalia , sudan ( everything in years 90 ) , It financed dictatorships that did what USA wished in the and 80 .

USA also finance with guns Israel's State who is opponent politicize of other countries of the region and you considers the attack the new York an anarchistic act as of this joker ? anything exist . For who did it is the sequence of a how hard war decades and that continues at this time , this anything has exist with the joker.

The joker leaves home and kills someone , in the real world everything has causes : The USA live an energetic crisis , the petroleum is the biggest planet energy source and this in the USA rivals hands that do not negotiate , therefore decades the USA comes implementing a form ( tie same military ) of revert this picture , in counterpoint he was attacked for the first time in the history. Everything this has reason from both sides.

The joker does not have reason, he does not want earths , money , calmness, prayer , petroleum , can , he only wants the disorder and the chaos , if the joker existed in the real world he would be a step imperialists' front and terrorist because the joker does not have flat , objective does not consequently have weaknesses .

Here in the Rio de Janeiro where live has some traffickers who remind the joker . They are almost anarchistic , as they know that they cannot live outside the slums ( That here on the Rio de janeiro exist in mountains) they simply kill to anyone of the crueler ways existings for win highlight

Example : a reporter was to do a report of a dance funk in the slum was captured by a trafficker and then was quartered with a sword nínja and after the remains put inside a barrel and put fire , it was a scandal and to also happens always . They brandish fire in bus and promote draggings only to if they have a good time ( because the financial profit is smaller than the death risk that they has )

The scene that I saw in one of the 12 clips with the joker sending kill a checheno reminded me very the violence films done in Brazil ( that show the crime reality organized here in Brazil ) , here inclusive already compared the joker of this film to the traffickers who there are here

These criminal here of the Rio are nearer of the joker than "terrorist".

Stay with God

 

[BatoutofHell]

In the Name of God, Most Beneficent, Most Merciful
===========================================

Friend ronny that is its things vision .

I talked that the joker at moment some seems an extremist

See for its example attack citation the new York . For you that was initiate it of something , more for million other people that is the sequence of something . People of several parts of the world has been being attacked by the USA in years 90 ( govern Bill Clinton ) , USA put sadam in the power , it trained taliban , invaded Irak in 1990 , bombarded Libya , somalia , sudan ( everything in years 90 ) , It financed dictatorships that did what USA wished in the and 80 .

USA also finance with guns Israel's State who is opponent politicize of other countries of the region and you considers the attack the new York an anarchistic act as of this joker ? anything exist . For who did it is the sequence of a how hard war decades and that continues at this time , this anything has exist with the joker.

The joker leaves home and kills someone , in the real world everything has causes : The USA live an energetic crisis , the petroleum is the biggest planet energy source and this in the USA rivals hands that do not negotiate , therefore decades the USA comes implementing a form ( tie same military ) of revert this picture , in counterpoint he was attacked for the first time in the history. Everything this has reason from both sides.

The joker does not have reason, he does not want earths , money , calmness, prayer , petroleum , can , he only wants the disorder and the chaos , if the joker existed in the real world he would be a step imperialists' front and terrorist because the joker does not have flat , objective does not consequently have weaknesses .

Here in the Rio de Janeiro where live has some traffickers who remind the joker . They are almost anarchistic , as they know that they cannot live outside the slums ( That here on the Rio de janeiro exist in mountains) they simply kill to anyone of the crueler ways existings for win highlight

Example : a reporter was to do a report of a dance funk in the slum was captured by a trafficker and then was quartered with a sword nínja and after the remains put inside a barrel and put fire , it was a scandal and to also happens always . They brandish fire in bus and promote draggings only to if they have a good time ( because the financial profit is smaller than the death risk that they has )

The scene that I saw in one of the 12 clips with the joker sending kill a checheno reminded me very the violence films done in Brazil ( that show the crime reality organized here in Brazil ) , here inclusive already compared the joker of this film to the traffickers who there are here

These criminal here of the Rio are nearer of the joker than "terrorist".

**** God

Fixed. And funny, I know a guy on skype who always joins our skypecast and tries to be offensive and get kicked out. You the same guy?

 

[sasquatchs]

The bit towards the end between Fox and Batman reminds me of the latest FISA controversy and the whole eroding of privacy business

 

[Mr. Earle]

I dont know whether Nolan wanted to play on this subtext. Probably not. He just elevated the Joker to a force of chaos rather than just a murdering prankster.

If you want something with serious political subtext, read Marvel's Civil War. Its all about passing laws that limit the people's freedom because something extreme has happened. Also, its ponders on the idea that everyone who isnt with the goverment isnt patriotic, thus a terrorist, and much more.

Where have i heard all that before? hm....

 

[secretsquirrely]

Judging from the reactions of some closed minded (and seemingly racist) individuals, I would say "yes" this topic is "too hot" for these forums. I do like the idea, but I for one feel that there are too many adolescent/teenage folks who think they know everything because they've taken economics and seen one or two news programs for this to be a civilized conversation.

I personal input on the actual topic is I personally don't feel there was an exact comparison intended. In fact, it is very logical such a mirrored situation would occur. With trying to keep "realism" for today in mind for films, you need to take elements of the real world. Terrorism is a part of our world as much as it has been for the Batman Universe for years. So the comparrison is easy to make, but kee in mind the similarities were there before we ever had this war. However, I DO think the imagery in the posters are a dead on mirror. It had shock value and worked well for not only the premise of the film bt to get people's attention.

But yeah, no offense to the OP, Im thinking this toic may need to be closed, despite it being a very good topic to discuss.

 

[Hobodeluxe]

I remember political commentary in comics back in the 70's when O'Neill did Green Arrow (liberal) Green Lantern (conservative) team ups. they had a lot of heated debates on social issues but focused on their common goals. that's the way I see America. We all want the same things. We all want to be able to live and raise our kids in a safe place that provides good jobs and guarantees our liberties. Above all else those things are common.

the trouble is we've let them divide us. "they" being the corporations and the super rich who buy influence easily.They've been running things for quite some time now. they know the biggest threat to them is a unified and well informed public. that's why the media is hell bent on divisive wedge issues being spewed endlessly by both sides.

Search beyond the US media for your information and turn off the boob tube. Wake up people time is quickly running out. Big oil has the wheel and it's lust for Iranian oil is steering us directly into WWIII. The rest of the world will not react kindly to any more disruptions in supply that such an attack would cause. Israel is trying to push our buttons by threatening to do it if we don't. I say we tell them no and tell them if they fly over Iraq air space they will be shot down. We can't afford another war. Especially with China,Russia,India and others potentially siding against us. It's time we quit letting Israel and multinational corporations dictate our foreign policy.


does this rant get the thread closed? lol