The Dark Knight Was Batman in this movie?

[TheDarkKnight08]

ultimatefan=Jett

Why, because he liked the movie, and made a truthful observation?

 

[Cain]

They were all a constant when the film began. IN THE FILM, his actual influence was the least. He didn't affect the mob bosses, he didn't affect the joker and he didn't affect two face or Gordon. It's not like he really saved the day anywho, the citizens of gotham won their final round over the joker by not blowing themselves up, the two face's coin landed good side up making him kill someone.

he couldn't even get that dude to squeal and he threw him off a building.

Not really a constant in this film is where we really see that in the time since the last film Batman's presence has attracted attention. He didn't affect the Joker? how when the Joker pretty much admits that he does this because he sees Batman as his equal on the opposite end of his beliefs. He feels they're like the ying and yang and need each other to prove their points. "I'm an agent of chaos" the same way Batman is an agent of justice. Joker has very much been affected by Batman in the film even moreso now that deep down he knows Batman is incorruptible he feels he's more of a challenge.

He affected the mob because they obviously wanted to find a way to get rid of him. You see him checking Maroni a don in what is presumably a nightclube he owns. You see the way he treats even the head of the mob. Maroni feels responsible for helping the Joker he only did so cause he wanted Batman done. So yeah he was affected to. This is in the movie. Batman did affect Gordon cause now Gordon really knows Batman is probably the truest ally he has in that city.

 

[Cain]

I actually like Tim Burton and really enjoy most of his movies, I even think Returns can be appreciated if seen as a Burton movie purely, but as a Batman fan I have many problems with it. I never felt Bruce had a real arc in that movie, all you see is that sudden and unconvincing turn when he pleads to Selina against murder and revenge, but just a little ago he was blowing up circus gang members like it was no big deal. In TDK, I felt like his arc was developed throughout the movie, within all the turns of the story, you saw him be affected by it, react, adapt, change his mind.

The thing about the bold is that it's still a continuation from the first movie even though it's a stand alone film. Burton and his people had to keep some kind of continuity studio mandate perhaps but that's why they mention Vicki Vale and all that stuff.

Anyway by the end of the first movie He became this vengeful hateful dude from the last act of the previous movie all the way up to the sequel. Batman - Batman Forever are still playing off a singular arc even if the execution was disjointed due to Burton not making 3 movies. Batman Forever's theme of Batman not wanting to be Batman anymore, resenting what he has become but then overcoming his demons.

That's more or less basically what a 3rd Burton Batman would've played with cause it's something the Batchler's (married couple who wrote the original Forever script) incorporated into what they did. This is why he got production credit he wasn't even involved with that movie.

By this point Batman has consumed his life he's basically Batman 24/7 mask or no mask. The thing is what he has turned Batman into is even worse why does he even have to be Batman anymore if he found his equal? that's the tragedy of the romance. At some point every character in that film acted like they were above the law where does that leave Batman. This is when he realizes the errors of the ways he took it too far and wants to redeem himself enter Robin where he failed with Catwoman in terms of redemption.

These movies are typical late 80's - 1990's type visual storytelling but that's why they work as living comic books. Pop art in general had a phase of that stuff for a long time this is why comics became "dark". Movies were the same stuff confusing hyper violent cartoons for real blueprints.

I could understand why people don't like Batman Returns. I like it but I don't even look at it as a typical Burton movie. It actually was a very personal movie for his career which I think is mixed as I don't like all his work but his Batman films I do enjoy. In many ways it does pay respect to the Batman comic elements of duality, obsession, vigilantism, Batman and Catwoman are meant for each other but still can't be together. It just doesn't present them verbatim to the comics which to me is great cause if I want that I could just read comics. Things like that make it work as a Batman story though adds some freshness it's just Tim Burton's take on it and I enjoy it. To each his own, Batman will live past Tim Burton and that's what it is it won't be the end of Batman movies. I suppose we could all finally agree on just a couple of weeks ago.

 

[Cain]

*8*

 

[GL1]

I have a similar sentiment to the OP. I do feel that Nolan's Batman is Bruce Wayne, with Batman as just a... symbol that he puts on. He's isn't the symbol, its just something he believes in. I almost felt bad for Batsy at the end of TDK, but then I realized... uh... he's still Bruce Wayne... he'll be just fine.

 

[Hello Beautiful]

I'm pretty sure he was? Would have to see it again to make sure.



Plenty of Batman for me.

 

[Cain]

But he's always Bruce Wayne this whole "Batman is the real face" stuff is poppicock. Batman is 3 people

1) Public playboy and businessman
2) The dude who only Alfred and his close ally's know
3) The dude the criminals see

The dude in the middle is always the most dominant this is who he is at his core these movies are just exploring that element it's not like it's something that's never been in the comics.

 

[Conebone69]

Wait, what? Batman was in this movie?

 

[Eggyman]

Wait, what? Batman was in this movie?

Yup. Remember the guy with the hockey pads?

 

[Cain]

Everytime I see my friend now instead of saying "storm's coming" in a hoarse voice I say "hockey pads".

 

[Darknightnomis]

I think the real question is: were you at the right movie?

You sure you didn't walk into the theatre showing 'Mama Mia' by accident.

 

[Batman jr.]

And then he stopped at McDonald's to "get drive-thru." It's reported that his butler was upset due to having already made a sandwich for him.

That's why he burned teh lettah.

 

[Conebone69]

Yup. Remember the guy with the hockey pads?

Hmm, I dont recall

 

[Commodore Schmidlapp]

Dios mio

 

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

Hmm, I dont recall

the guy that slammed into the Mayor's office window because The Joker hung him over the building, come on ya gotta remember, his face was Jokerized too, jeesh! lolt:

 

[The_Raganork]

Dios mio

You said it.


what was this thread about again?

 

[ultimatefan]

edit double

 

[Bat-Mite]

Call it god or what have you but nolan's batman does not strike me as the man that someone along the lines of superman could respect. Maybe his entire entourage with gordon, lucious, harvey and alfred in there but definitely not Bats alone.

Something tells me that this incarnation of Batman couldn't care less about whether he got Superman's respect or not.

I mean i can't say he properly took down the joker or outsmarted the joker or foiled any of his schemes properly because he never really managed any of that.

Funny, I coulda sworn it was Batman that left the clown hanging there for the police to arrest. And I'd say he foiled the Joker's biggest scheme of all. Because the Joker's ultimate plan was to corrupt Harvey and destroy Gotham's faith in its white knight. Even though he succeeded in corrupting Harvey, because of Batman, Harvey's image remains untarnished.

oh and a batman who believes that gotham can exist without a batman either isn't a true gotham or isn't a true batman. That's the paranoid aspect of his personality which will always have him ready to go out, even when he's sixty and physically unable to and then have him turning bitter and isolated as he is no longer physically able to help even though he's still razor sharp in his mind.

I would be interested in hearing why you think Batman does what he does, then. Because to me, Batman fights crime in Gotham because he wants to eliminate the possibility of his tragedy happening to another child. Since the movie is set in his early years, he's still naive enough to believe that can happen. And maybe if Harvey's tragedy hadn't occurred, it would have actually happened. One of my favorite moments in the Animated Series was when Gotham's new D.A. is originally opposed to Batman, but eventually sees that he's necessary. But she tells him, "I'm still going to fight for a Gotham that doesn't need Batman," at which point Batman tells her, "So am I." I don't think he's Batman because he wants to be, so much as he has to be. If Nolan makes a third movie, it will be interesting to see Batman's outlook now that he no longer has any hope for anyone else to be Gotham's savior and knows that he's completely alone.

 

[ultimatefan]

The thing about the bold is that it's still a continuation from the first movie even though it's a stand alone film. Burton and his people had to keep some kind of continuity studio mandate perhaps but that's why they mention Vicki Vale and all that stuff.

Anyway by the end of the first movie He became this vengeful hateful dude from the last act of the previous movie all the way up to the sequel. Batman - Batman Forever are still playing off a singular arc even if the execution was disjointed due to Burton not making 3 movies. Batman Forever's theme of Batman not wanting to be Batman anymore, resenting what he has become but then overcoming his demons.

That's more or less basically what a 3rd Burton Batman would've played with cause it's something the Batchler's (married couple who wrote the original Forever script) incorporated into what they did. This is why he got production credit he wasn't even involved with that movie.

By this point Batman has consumed his life he's basically Batman 24/7 mask or no mask. The thing is what he has turned Batman into is even worse why does he even have to be Batman anymore if he found his equal? that's the tragedy of the romance. At some point every character in that film acted like they were above the law where does that leave Batman. This is when he realizes the errors of the ways he took it too far and wants to redeem himself enter Robin where he failed with Catwoman in terms of redemption.

These movies are typical late 80's - 1990's type visual storytelling but that's why they work as living comic books. Pop art in general had a phase of that stuff for a long time this is why comics became "dark". Movies were the same stuff confusing hyper violent cartoons for real blueprints.

I could understand why people don't like Batman Returns. I like it but I don't even look at it as a typical Burton movie. It actually was a very personal movie for his career which I think is mixed as I don't like all his work but his Batman films I do enjoy. In many ways it does pay respect to the Batman comic elements of duality, obsession, vigilantism, Batman and Catwoman are meant for each other but still can't be together. It just doesn't present them verbatim to the comics which to me is great cause if I want that I could just read comics. Things like that make it work as a Batman story though adds some freshness it's just Tim Burton's take on it and I enjoy it. To each his own, Batman will live past Tim Burton and that's what it is it won't be the end of Batman movies. I suppose we could all finally agree on just a couple of weeks ago.

The thing is, I´m not convinced by that realization. We never saw the slightest bit of doubt or remorse over all the killing and law breaking Batman had done in the past, or sensed that he really questioned his double life - he says Vicki had a problem with it, but he doesn´t seem particularly upset by that - then all of a sudden he goes "don´t follow that dark path".

I acknowledge that Burton was the pioneer in bringing a darker and more serious approach to Batman on screen, that he created a great visual identity for these movies, and that many still love his work. I actually just saw Sweeney Todd on DVD, and quite enjoyed it. But if I were to pick a Batman on film, it´d be Nolan´s.

 

[El Payaso]

I actually like Tim Burton and really enjoy most of his movies, I even think Returns can be appreciated if seen as a Burton movie purely, but as a Batman fan I have many problems with it. I never felt Bruce had a real arc in that movie, all you see is that sudden and unconvincing turn when he pleads to Selina against murder and revenge, but just a little ago he was blowing up circus gang members like it was no big deal. In TDK, I felt like his arc was developed throughout the movie, within all the turns of the story, you saw him be affected by it, react, adapt, change his mind.

In Returns he's not convincing against revenge and killing just because he thinks it's the "right thing to do," but because he wanted them to be together. It was a "we were being that, but let's quit so we can run away together."

Now, if for what story is better told on the script, TDK wins.

 

[Cain]

The thing is, I´m not convinced by that realization. We never saw the slightest bit of doubt or remorse over all the killing and law breaking Batman had done in the past, or sensed that he really questioned his double life - he says Vicki had a problem with it, but he doesn´t seem particularly upset by that - then all of a sudden he goes "don´t follow that dark path".

I don't want to seem insulting but while it's not spoonfed to the audience it's still there. The moment Bruce realizes who Selina really is that's the realization. He sees how she has no problem killing Shreck for what he did to her the same way he felt about Napier and has been since then. If the punishment fits the crime lay out the punishment don't think it through ethically. All the symbolism like how they're frolicking together on his couch yet try to conceal their wounds from each other. Lines like

Selina: The law doesn't apply to people like him or us
Bruce: Wrong on both counts

They're both parallels to each other. Selina is what opens Bruce's eyes to what he has become he tries to save himself by going for the normal life living with her growing old with her but it's not meant to be. This is early 90's blockbuster cinema there is no elaboration. Like I said it's not the deepest thing but it's there it's told through visuals which is the simplest form of storytelling. There is more to read into the whole package than in most summer blockbuster's this is why I also appreciate the movie.

He does all his grieving in Batman Forever that's why he's moping all throughout that movie this was the turning point this is when he goes "I may have effed up here". This is why he gives Dick Grayson that speech about killing Two-Face.

I acknowledge that Burton was the pioneer in bringing a darker and more serious approach to Batman on screen, that he created a great visual identity for these movies, and that many still love his work. I actually just saw Sweeney Todd on DVD, and quite enjoyed it. But if I were to pick a Batman on film, it´d be Nolan´s.

I grew up on Burton's work I remember the year when Beetlejuice was the sleeper hit I used to watch Pee-Wee's Big Adventure all the time I could seriously quote that movie. Somewhere after Mars Attacks! though I didn't like his projects except for Big Fish which I consider his best film ever I think everything he's done of late sucks. I prefer TDK to any other Batman movie by far. It's the only one in my top 15 movies of all time. I think BB is pretentious and still don't really enjoy it all the way. I dig the comic book spirit of Burton's movies and think they're awesome films but I prefer Nolan's second to any other including his IMO overrated first.

 

[The Batman]

Some people need to realize that some filmmakers just dont want to do the "Batman is the true self" or "I'm a super paranoid control freak"...and one cant blame them, as not only are those characterizations of batman are usually the most annoying ones, they're also the most one dimensional. With the idea of having playboy bruce and batman actually being facets of the real bruce wayne...Batman has some...gasp...complexity to him.

 

[Bishop]

Bah.

This is ninja Batman we're talking about. He was most probably in every scene, skulking in the shadows, waiting to mess up someone's ****.

 

[Conebone69]

the guy that slammed into the Mayor's office window because The Joker hung him over the building, come on ya gotta remember, his face was Jokerized too, jeesh! lolt:

Batman? Mayors office?

I remember some dude dressed in all black but he deffinetly didnt resemble a bat, pshhh. Who would dress like a bat? This movie is clearly about "The Dark Knight" not this batman you speak of

 

[Saint]

Did they forget about Batman? Well, since the entire plot revolves around him and his dilemmas, and every character is used in ways that serve him and create conflict for him, no, I'm fairly certain they didn't forget about Batman.

The entire movie is about Batman. Perhaps watch more closely if you do not see it.