Oh, I didnt know planning was the same as doing
Bruce burning all the papers associated with his gear, emptying out the garage, and going to Harvey's press conference ready to get handcuffed....is not "doing"? Tell me, what the hell IS? The only thing that stopped everything from going through was Harvey taking over the situation. Bruce had every intent on revealing his identity until someone had to stop him without his knowledge.
as Rachel says, Bruce let Harvey take the wrap
but really it was Bruce realizing, he cant turn himself in because Batman is bigger than that.
I know the significance of the scene. And you've made the point that we all know, which is that Batman is bigger than Bruce or Dent. So when Bruce was willing to destroy all of that, then it comes off as weak. Dent knew the importance of Batman, why wouldn't...Batman himself? Why did it take someone else to make him realize this?
Because things were spiraling out of control, and Bruce felt as if the deaths inflicted by the Joker were directly related to him. It wasn't out of character at all. Plus, it also showed how big of a hero Harvey Dent was in taking the wrap for Batman, thus allowing him and instilling a belief in Bruce Wayne that Batman means more to the city (even though the chips were down) than to cater to the whims of a terrorist.
It's out of character to be mentally defeated by a villain. You keep sidestepping my issue. So I'll say it for the third time. Why do you think it's perfectly fine for the most dedicated self-made hero to throw away his entire life and everything he stood for, to one guy? Furthermore, who the hell thinks it's smart to give into demands, when you're arguably the only person that has the chance of beating this terrorist? Again, Rachel and Dent had the right idea.
Really didn't watch the movie now did we? Did you see the terrorist video first shown on the news channel before he kills the fake Batman? His speech? The hypocracy is Batman is a fascist criminal helping put people behind bars, and inspiring people in many way towards extreme reactions. The hypocrisy of the world he has now created in Gotham.
You threw "hypocrisy" in there twice and it still didn't make sense. You're half-right, Joker's vid did point out that Batman's presence inspired good, but at the same time inspired a new form of bad. But there is no hypocrisy there. The only hypocrisy Batman represents, is going out every night to catch people breaking the law, yet he's breaking the law himself by being a vigilante. But that's not what Joker was saying, so that point is moot.
It was stupid? It's called a story. I mean you're making it sound like you have legit beef with an apparent stupid character arc. I mean these actions were really important to the story, and you LIKED The Dark Knight?
Bruce wasn't naive, he was the one who had the clouded perception being he was Batman, and he felt he had blood on his hands. Did you not watch or understand the movie? When cops are dying left and right and protesting the Batman who they understood created this force of evil, the Joker ... why wouldn't Batman heavily consider hanging it up? Plus Alfred's original prediction that something along these lines would happen. These real world consequences to fictional characters made real is what made these two Nolan Batman movies so compelling. I can't believe you're bashing this story arc.
Again, with the snobbish remarks? What the hell makes you think I didn't understand that Bats was pinned to a corner and wanted to make a quick decision to get out of it? That's
exactly my issue with it. If I didn't understand it, guess what, I wouldn't be discussing this matter.
Willing to drop all that for one guy? Yes, one insane force of nature type of guy. He'd totally do that.
It's not a matter of Joker constantly beating on Batman's predicament. I don't know why I'm repeating myself, but I've already said I've got no qualms with that. It's the fact that Bruce was gonna take the easy way out and sacrifice his image, and the fate of Gotham. Make no mistake, had Dent not stopped in, everyone knowing who Bruce is wouldn't have helped that city at all. The GPD would've been forced to arrest Bruce, Joker would've kept going on with his antics, and that city would've been shred to pieces. If you wanna talk consequences, then that's a pretty obvious one that
should have entered Bruce's head when he was thinking of giving up his identity. Not "I'll give up Batman, Joker is happy and will go away, Gotham becomes a utopia". How can you NOT think that is naive?
In addittion, Batman wasn't supposed to be a lifetime deal in the Nolan universe. It was finite. His purpose was to clean up Gotham. By the start of The Dark Knight, he does that after he takes the accountant to the mob's "life savings" ... then this monster emerges from the cracks. So he was going to finish up anyway, and then he finds Harvey which further pushes him towards retirement ... and the straw that breaks the camel's back is Joker's threat to continue to kill more people after everyone he's slaughtered if the Batman doesnt turn himself in.
This doesn't really pertain to the discussion. But thanks for summing up a plot point, I guess....
The relationship between Bruce / Batman and Harvey Dent is strengthened in that Harvey believed in the Batman when everyone else wanted his head on a platter. He knew he meant more to the city than just trading him in to stop a terrorist. That belief in Batman gives him the strength to go on, thus making the Bruce / Harvey bond stronger, which makes the tragic fall of Harvey even worse for Bruce Wayne.
This subplot didn't have to be sacrificed because of my issue. If they had taken out all the scenes of Bruce packing up his gear and deciding to stop being Batman, that scene with Dent turning himself in could have still made the final cut and wouldn't have changed things at all. Dent could still be a hero, and he would have still inspired Bruce.
You're a Kevin Conroy / B:TAS head ... did you have a problem in Mask Of the Phantasm when Bruce was going to give up on the idea of Batman, before it even started I might add, to be with a girl ...
Ummm....YEAH. Thought you had me with that one, didn't ya? I'm sorry to tear down your belief that I'm for everything that was in BTAS. If I have a problem with any subplot or character trait in ANY medium, I'm gonna point it out. I hold no bias.
You're out of your damn mind, bud. And this has nothing to do with opinion. I can't believe anyone with a brain and an appreciation for the rich story of The Dark Knight would be trying to tear this aspect of the story line down. Created for such high intensity drama between characters.
Read 2 paragraphs above. My complaint is Bruce actually following through with the idea of turning himself in. I'm not asking for the removal of the drama or tension in the story and character. Asides from that one point, I did like what was shown.
Oy, this term again. I'm gonna ask you this once. Do you WANT me to hate this film? I've repeatedly told you that I love the movie and went as far to say this is THE number one comic book movie ever made. Does that remotely sound like a hater of this production? Just because I've made an effort to carefully explain some of my problems with this film, that does not automatically make me a "hater". Please refrain from trying to categorize me, when I sure as hell have done my best not to do the same to you.
The Batman you're looking for is the one established at the end of the film. But you're issues were character elements that were neccessary for the dramatic emotional story that needed to take place in The Dark Knight.
And this is exactly why to me it is the definitive version of the Batman. He evolves, like a real person. They take him places, make him have internal problems that actually need to be solved that push the character. A glossy "definitive" version that doesn't face any challenges is totally lame.
If you've read my posts in this very thread, you'd see I'm absolutely supportive of a character evolution and especially one who takes challenges and isn't perfect. If you'd take the same amount of time it took you to write these lengthy posts, it shouldn't be hard to use that same effort in reading what I'm saying so you don't make false statements about me.
Not many directors or writers would dare decide to take their hero down the direction Nolan did with Batman at the end of this one.
