Superman Returns Was Superman Really Out of Character in SR?

[mego joe]

You know, i was going to post a big long, usual reply to this MJ, but i honestly dont see the point . Have either of us changed our minds about ANYTHING we have argued? No, not at all it seems.

All i will say is that i think you need to watch the movie again at least twice, this way i think you will see more of were me and other fans who liked it come from.

ANd I understand what you guys like about it. To me though, it's not enough to overcome what I disliked. Know what I mean?

It's like in S:TM and SII. There are parts I don't like, but there are not enough to ruin the whole experience. There is too much of SR that I don't like that it DOES ruin the whole experience.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Right...so it's ok to discuss the movie's flaws then?

Of course it is , do what you want, i NEVER said you couldnt discuss the flaws did I?

I just said I discussed at length over a year ago and got fed up discussing them, and with all the negativity on this board, i prefer talking about what i liked about the movie.

ANd I understand what you guys like about it. To me though, it's not enough to overcome what I disliked. Know what I mean?

It's like in S:TM and SII. There are parts I don't like, but there are not enough to ruin the whole experience. There is too much of SR that I don't like that it DOES ruin the whole experience.

Yeah i know what you mean, i have the same feelings with many movies, that doesnt make them worse than B&R though .

 

[mego joe]

Of course it is , do what you want, i NEVER said you couldnt discuss the flaws did I?

I just said I discussed at length over a year ago and got fed up discussing them, and with all the negativity on this board, i prefer talking about what i liked about the movie.



Yeah i know what you mean, i have the same feelings with many movies, that doesnt make them worse than B&R though .

Except for me what I dislike is so 'wrong' that it makes EVERYTHING in the movie seem wrong.

For B&R it's just silly stuff b/c it isn't taking itself or the matierial seriously.

For SR it takes the matierial seriously(except Lex) and gets it 'wrong,' thus making the stuff that COULD be enjoyed seem inconsequential, b/c what REALLY matters, character, story etc.. is just 'wrong.'

 

[Angeloz]

See I guess the way you feel about "Superman Returns" is the way I feel about "Batman & Robin" and that was I felt they disrespected the characters. I grant you I don't remember enough to comment on most of them. Though I do remember I was extremely disappointed with the depiction of Mr Freeze. Probably because of how the animated series made him such a tragic character. I probably felt that the picture just stuffed that up. Or didn't care about doing the character justice. Probably true of most if not all of them. Again I don't remember thankfully. By the way I think "Superman Returns" did respect the characters even if some of you don't like what was done with them.

Angeloz

 

[mego joe]

See I guess the way you feel about "Superman Returns" is the way I feel about "Batman & Robin" and that was I felt they disrespected the characters. I grant you I don't remember enough to comment on most of them. Though I do remember I was extremely disappointed with the depiction of Mr Freeze. Probably because of how the animated series made him such a tragic character. I probably felt that the picture just stuffed that up.

The animated series did a great job with Mr. Freeze and BandR just didn't get that there was a real moving story to tell with him and instead just focussed on the 'villain' aspects. To me it wasn't so much about disrespecting the characters in BandR, just not taking them as serirous characters like the T.V. series did. It's not so much wrong as just treating the characters in a simplistic way, again like the TV series.

As we have discussed before, the TV series is fun, it's just not the serious approach that has been developed with Batman in the years since the series first aired.

Or didn't care about doing the character justice. Probably true of most if not all of them. Again I don't remember thankfully. By the way I think "Superman Returns" did respect the characters even if some of you don't like what was done with them.

SR treated the characters seriously, but did not respect the essence of who they are. How can you say that making SUperman the absentee father of an illegitimate child respects who he is and what the essence of the character is? There is no story ANYWHERE that could ever lead one to think that this is somehow part of who Superman is.

You could say that SR respects the charactes as 'serious' material, but it disrespects them in the way they are characterized. It got that part wrong.

Angeloz

 

[Angeloz]

Shouldn't you add mego joe after Angeloz perhaps with a wink?

As I've admitted I largely forget what "Batman & Robin" did thankfully. And I'll point out I was warned it was bad. As well as avoided seeing it at the cinema which was a first for a Batman film in the last 20 years. I know my reaction after seeing it was that I never wanted to see it again. This was before, for me, DVDs and their commentaries. So I might see it with the commentary. As I've mentioned elsewhere I liked the "Batman" sixties series as a kid and even a young teenager. I'd probably like it as an adult if they ever released it on DVD. As a teenager I realised there was two levels of entertainment in the series. One for the young children and another for the adults. I doubt that "Batman & Robin" had even that.

As for "Superman Returns" I don't think we'll agree. I guess because the first exposure of Superman for me was the Christopher Reeve series of films. It makes what happens in the 2006 picture perfectly believable to me. But I understand everyone is different and has different requirements for the characters. I find it a shame they can't get over their preconceived ideas but it's not always possible. Especially if it's a taste or moral question.

Angeloz

 

[mego joe]

Shouldn't you add mego joe after Angeloz perhaps with a wink?

HOw about a smile!

As I've admitted I largely forget what "Batman & Robin" did thankfully. And I'll point out I was warned it was bad. As well as avoided seeing it at the cinema which was a first for a Batman film in the last 20 years. I know my reaction after seeing it was that I never wanted to see it again. This was before, for me, DVDs and their commentaries. So I might see it with the commentary. As I've mentioned elsewhere I liked the "Batman" sixties series as a kid and even a young teenager. I'd probably like it as an adult if they ever released it on DVD. As a teenager I realised there was two levels of entertainment in the series. One for the young children and another for the adults. I doubt that "Batman & Robin" had even that.

As for "Superman Returns" I don't think we'll agree. I guess because the first exposure of Superman for me was the Christopher Reeve series of films. It makes what happens in the 2006 picture perfectly believable to me.

And to mysef and others, it doesn't seem possible for that very reason.

But I understand everyone is different and has different requirements for the characters. I find it a shame they can't get over their preconceived ideas but it's not always possible. Especially if it's a taste or moral question.

For me the moral thing is especially pertinant to Superman, b/c his high moral fiber and moral integrity is essential to the character and I find that missing in SR.

I find it a shame that a man that treats the woman he loves the way Superman does in SR and his irresponsible attitude toward his obligations of being in a sexual relationship can be considered 'Superman,' or heroic.

Angeloz

Mego Joe

 

[Angeloz]

If they made a sequel and he ends up marrying her (as Clark) will you change your mind? At least for that film if not the earlier one.

NB - I like the smiley.

Angeloz

 

[mego joe]

If they made a sequel and he ends up marrying her (as Clark) will you change your mind? At least for that film if not the earlier one.

NB - I like the smiley.

Angeloz

WIll she know Clark is SUperman? Or will she think she has a son by Superman and is married to Clark and doesn't know they are the same person?

IMO, the story in SR only sets up more conflict and angst. I don't see a happy ending. At the most, bitter sweet. How are we going to get RIchard. If he dies, that will be cliched. Anyway you slice it, Jason looses his dad. THe dad that raised him and loved him everyday of his life. The situation is too dysfunctional. Worst of all, it's all Superman's fault.

Even if they end up together and raise Jason after Richard dies or whatever, the story is still bad IMO. It shows Superman and Lois caring more about themselves than their child. There's no way around it really.

 

[Angeloz]

You love to complicate things with the identity. Of course she should know Clark is Superman. I'll point out Clark also lost his Dad so he could relate to Jason that way. Maybe even help him if it happens. You sure like to worry.

Angeloz

 

[mego joe]

You love to complicate things with the identity.

Actually, I don't. That was Singer who complicated things with identity by having SUperman and Lois in a sexual relationship and Lois not knowing his other identity as Clark.

I prefer to keep it simple. If they are involved and committed, she needs to know.

Of course she should know Clark is Superman. I'll point out Clark also lost his Dad so he could relate to Jason that way. Maybe even help him if it happens.

But it's not simply Jason losing his dad. It's Jason losing his dad and Jason having had to live through the whole deception becasue Superman screwed up in the beginning. And is Jason really going to want Superman to 'relate' to him? Jason's life is a mess b/c of Superman's immaturity and irresponsibility.

You sure like to worry.

Angeloz

I'm a parent, parents worry. Not just my own kids, but all kids in the world. Especially when the child suffers b/c of abuse/ neglect/ indifference/ not being a priority etc...from their parent(s). In all of SR the characters who I felt the most for were Lois, Richard and Jason.

Jason- becasue he's an innocent child and has to suffer the sins of his parents.

Richard- becasue he seems like a good standup kind of guy who got involved with the wrong person with a lot of baggage (Lois).

Lois- despite being incredibly rude and insensitive to Clark, she is the victim of Superman's irresponsible behavior.

I have no sympathy or empathy for Superman. He made some very serious mistakes, the most critical of which he knew was wrong to begin with (not saying goodbye to Lois) and this causes Lois, Jason and Richard a lot of unecessary pain and strife in their lives. He is the most unlikable character of these four. Why would Superman act in this way? Answer: Singer and Co. don't undertand the character.

 

[Angeloz]

I knew you'd say parents worry.

Angeloz

 

[mego joe]

I knew you'd say parents worry.

Angeloz

Well, I now know from first hand experience that it's the truth.

 

[Angeloz]

Well, I now know from first hand experience that it's the truth.

I like that. But I guess there might be the exception where the parent wants to turn the child to the Dark side of the Force and rule the galaxy side by side. Unfortunately it's not fictional even now.

Umm... I assume it doesn't include you. 'Cos you don't sound that way.

Hmm... would that include wearing black i.e. the Dark side? I'm thinking no myself (as nearly random silliness).

Angeloz

 

[mego joe]

I like that. But I guess there might be the exception where the parent wants to turn the child to the Dark side of the Force and rule the galaxy side by side. Unfortunately it's not fictional even now.

Umm... I assume it doesn't include you. 'Cos you don't sound that way.

Hmm... would that include wearing black i.e. the Dark side? I'm thinking no myself (as nearly random silliness).

Angeloz

THe POlice concet T shirt I got back in August is black, so I don't think one's wardrobe color has anything to do with it. Heart color? Different story.

But don't you think Vader WAS worried for his son? He wanted him to join him to be together, otherwise, he'd have to kill him.

 

[Angeloz]

THe POlice concet T shirt I got back in August is black, so I don't think one's wardrobe color has anything to do with it. Heart color? Different story.

But don't you think Vader WAS worried for his son? He wanted him to join him to be together, otherwise, he'd have to kill him.

I thought you might say something of the kind. Why not say those parents that worry that their children will be good people. And those that worry they won't.

By the way I do mean it in a silly way as well as fictional. 'Cos real life isn't a joke.

Angeloz

 

[mego joe]

I thought you might say something of the kind. Why not say those parents that worry that their children will be good people. And those that worry they won't.

By the way I do mean it in a silly way as well as fictional. 'Cos real life isn't a joke.

Angeloz

No boubt. No joke at all. THat's why I worry! ha ha

 

[Angeloz]

No boubt. No joke at all. THat's why I worry! ha ha

I'm glad you see the funny side. Though I suspect good parents need a sense of humour.

Angeloz

 

[mego joe]

I'm glad you see the funny side. Though I suspect good parents need a sense of humour.

Angeloz

My kids are like " Daddy, say something funny!"

So I say something funny, and then they say "Daddy, say something funny you've NEVER said before!"

That's a tough crowd.

My personality is such that I love to make my kids laugh and I ALMOST cross the line. For instnance, the nine year old has seen Monty Python's "Marathon for INcontinece," and they both know this Python joke:

What's brown and sounds like a bell?

Dung!

No, really, stop, I'm not tha funny1

 

[That'ssuper!]

You know, beyond the stalker Superman with Lois. The bastard child and abandoning father concept. Emo costume and a darkness everywhere. I would say Superman Returns had Superman in character as if the Wolf Man living in the suburbs with a normal family. Makes much sense to me - not.

 

[Angeloz]

My kids are like " Daddy, say something funny!"

So I say something funny, and then they say "Daddy, say something funny you've NEVER said before!"

That's a tough crowd.

My personality is such that I love to make my kids laugh and I ALMOST cross the line. For instnance, the nine year old has seen Monty Python's "Marathon for INcontinece," and they both know this Python joke:

What's brown and sounds like a bell?

Dung!

No, really, stop, I'm not tha funny1

A sense of humour is not being funny. Slight difference.

Angeloz

 

[mego joe]

A sense of humour is not being funny. Slight difference.

Angeloz

No, but it generally takes a sense of humor to be funny.

 

[Angeloz]

No, but it generally takes a sense of humor to be funny.

Not always. There can be unintentional humour. But also some are better at being the audience and others the comedian. I know I'd be crap at intentional humour. At best I go with what comes to me. But if I try to force it - it won't work (with exceptions). Bugger being serious about humour does that mean I should have lemon meringue pies thrown at me?

Angeloz

 

[mego joe]

Not always. There can be unintentional humour. But also some are better at being the audience and others the comedian. I know I'd be crap at intentional humour. At best I go with what comes to me. But if I try to force it - it won't work (with exceptions). Bugger being serious about humour does that mean I should have lemon meringue pies thrown at me?

Angeloz

Hey, free pie! You've just got to be able to catch them, otherwise it's a lot to eat at once.

 

[Angeloz]

Hey, free pie! You've just got to be able to catch them, otherwise it's a lot to eat at once.

LOL.

Angeloz