What are your complaints? What would you do differently? *SPOILERS*

[BlueLantern]

Did you notice how they ended up in Smallville, and Zod dispatched two ships and threatened his mother? Clark's reaction to this was pretty powerful stuff. They obviously had found a weak point.

I don't agree with that. They wouldn't have even bothered going to Smallville if it wasn't to find the codex. Moreover, if they found a weak point, why not exploit it further? Distract him from his own goals. Don't just assume he'll give in and not actually try to stop their goal. It was lazy storytelling.

So Metropolis just comes out of nowhere, then? Hmm...

That part's optional and maybe consider it as an epilogue. Again, I'm not writing the entire script here but it would be about setup and payoff. Imply and show how when Clark wanted to leave Smallville at the time that Jonathan died he was maybe considering leaving for the Big Apricot.

Such things can be developed into a script but they chose not to and instead just rushed an introduction to the city without building it up. They just used it as ground zero for the destruction they could show and nothing more. It was off-putting in my opinion.

Since everyone's comparing the film to the Avengers, imagine if Loki didn't realize Stark Tower was a perfect location to build a portal from and just simply decided to head over and use it as his spot. It would so jarring and just completely unexpected.

 

[Rock Sexton]

Did you miss every single one of the scenes where Jonathan Kent was raising Clark and hammering home the point that society wasn't ready for him to reveal himself and that he shouldn't use his powers for selfishness? And he didn't know he LOST his biological parents, he knew nothing about where he was from at that point other than that he was an alien and his adopted parents were the Kent's.

I'm fine with those scenes.

I'm arguing they go out the window when your father's life is in jeopardy. I just laugh sitting here thinking that anyone on this site would be ok with letting their father get annihilated by a tornado, when they know they have the power to save him (unless you're estranged).

.... and like I said, who's to say anyone would know what really happened? People were scurring to GTFO of there. Clark could've rescued his dad and in case he was worred about having to answer questions, he could then just set off on his drifting.

 

[The Guard]

Someone is going to have to point out to me how Superman was NOT a rookie when it came to fighting superpowered beings. Where we saw him do that in the film before the incident in Smallville.

And I do not recall Superman actually throwing any of the Kryptonians into a building full of people. I recall the exact opposite.

Nor do I recall a scene where it is ever shown that Superman was quick enough to go save people, then get back to the fight, or where it was shown that the Kryptonians would have let up on him long enough for this to be very feasible in the middle of combat.

 

[Rock Sexton]

If you understand the concept, it shouldn't work up to a certain point. You should understand exactly why Clark let his father die.

Jonathan's concept was not "Clark, this is bigger than us, but not bigger than you saving me"

Sheesh.

..... and it's absurd! The notion was founded more on paranoia than actual fact of how the population would react. They just kept telling you in the movie that they didn't know how the public would react.

 

[BlueLantern]

Nor do I recall a scene where it is ever shown that Superman was quick enough to go save people, then get back to the fight, or where it was shown that the Kryptonians would have let up on him long enough for this to be very feasible in the middle of combat.

This is the last time I'm going to make this point, but here goes. The conflict within Superman's character comes from that. How can I stop these people in their steps whilst also trying to protect people from them?

As Superman’s having his final one-on-one battle with Zod, show me that he’s going out of his way to save people from getting caught in the middle. SHOW ME that trying to simultaneously protect humans and beat Zod is achingly, achingly costing Superman the fight.

Waid said it, I've thought it and reinforced it. That's me done on that particular point. I'm not going to stress it anymore because it's blindly obvious.

 

[Daybreak_st]

It's apparent that most people simply don't grasp the actual reason Jonathan Kent wanted Clark to keep his abilities hidden.

And I've pretty much decided that anyone who doesn't love the last bit with young Clark with his towel cape doesn't have a soul, and was never a kid, and doesn't really like Superman.

Yeah that scene was perfect. The movie would've benefited greatly from more scenes like that it adds warmth to an otherwise emotionally cold film. Instead we're given a Johnathan who would actually advise his son to NOT save a school bus full of his classmates When the preview first came out I was sure there was more substance to that scene, so that Johnathan's words had more significance or that it would be followed up with something insightful......nope just a paronoid who would have his son let all his classmates die. Father...of...the...year. That scene was so much worst in context. It wasn't just one kid but an entire bus load of which clark was in the midst of. So what he should save himself and let everyone else die? Living with kind of guilt wouldn't mess him up one bit And I rather certain PUSHING THE BUS OUT OF THE WATER was more revealing of his abilities than swimming back to grab Pete Ross. Just you know...logic would tell me that. Kid in water I'm guessing either couldn't swim or for some other reason hadn't made it to shore, so the idea that he was just sitting there..in the water watching Clark...you know instead of saving himself doesn't make any sense whatsoever. I'm farily certain Lana would've have been the ONLY kid on the bus who saw either. I would any child awake would simply look back to find out what was going on and see Clark. And of yeah what about the guy on the bridge who saw the bus go in...pretty sure he saw everything too.

 

[The Guard]

I don't agree with that. They wouldn't have even bothered going to Smallville if it wasn't to find the codex. Moreover, if they found a weak point, why not exploit it further? Distract him from his own goals. Don't just assume he'll give in and not actually try to stop their goal. It was lazy storytelling.

You don't agree with what?

That it was a weak point for Superman? The film shows us it is.

Zod isn't some sentimental ******* who was just out to punish Superman initially.

He wanted to find the codex, period. He was doing his duty to Krypton.

By the end of the film, Zod has figured out how much Superman cares for the people of Earth. He hates him for it. And he does try to hurt him by killing humans.

 

[Mysteryman]

It's apparent that most people simply don't grasp the actual reason Jonathan Kent wanted Clark to keep his abilities hidden.

And I've pretty much decided that anyone who doesn't love the last bit with young Clark with his towel cape doesn't have a soul, and was never a kid, and doesn't really like Superman.

I cried buckets.
And the point of the scene to me was that in that brief moment,Jonathan did see what his son could become .

 

[The Guard]

People, Jonathan Kent never says "Let them die".

He says "maybe". Maybe does not mean "yes". Maybe means "maybe", as in "I don't know". And every iota of Kevin Costner's performance says that in saying maybe, he is conflicted about what to tell Clark in relation to this. Because he doesn't know.

He makes the choice to tell Clark about his origins, because hiding Clark's abilities is not just about hiding his abilities. It's much more important than that.

 

[RedIsNotBlue]

I'm fine with those scenes.

I'm arguing they go out the window when your father's life is in jeopardy. I just laugh sitting here thinking that anyone on this site would be ok with letting their father get annihilated by a tornado, when they know they have the power to save him (unless you're estranged).

.... and like I said, who's to say anyone would know what really happened? People were scurring to GTFO of there. Clark could've rescued his dad and in case he was worred about having to answer questions, he could then just set off on his drifting.

Well if you are going into the psychological aspect of it is obvious in that scene right before that tornado that Clark is really going through the feelings of anger, feeling lost, and alone...hence the argument and harsh words with Jonathan prior. So when he made the gesture as if he was going to come save him and Jonathan signaled for him not to because his entire life his father had told him his powers and existence were bigger than potentially exposing himself to the world when they were not ready for it. It's easy to say "Clark should have just said screw it I can save him" but you are sort of just casting aside the actual feelings and human condition of that scene.

But I suppose it is just one of those controversial scenes of a choice a character makes that not everyone is going to agree with. Every good superhero flick typically has them...at least these days when they are grounded in reality to an extent.

 

[Rock Sexton]

By the end of the film, Zod has figured out how much Superman cares for the people of Earth. He hates him for it. And he does try to hurt him by killing humans.

He "threatened" he would kill humans .... then of course spends the rest of the time brawling. The only time he attempted to actually kill a human at that portion of the move was at the end when their brawl brought them to some random area where a few randomly displaced humans are hiding behind rubble.

 

[ViscaBarcaInter]

The short answer to what I don't like is that this movie is a facsimile of Batman Begins with Superman instead of Batman. Too grey, too morally ambiguous for this character.

The whole point of the Kents is that they humanise Kal-el, and instill in him the morals that make him a hero, and that is what makes him a Superman. In this movie Martha does...nothing, and Jonathan actively instills the DISGUSTING idea that "you should let a bus full of school children die so you can protect your secret, the secret you actively spend your whole life revealing to everyone anyway". The end result of this is 1) a Clark Kent who watches his father die saving a damn dog when he had the power to stop it and CHOSE not to, and 2) a Clark who will murder a villain, and oddly seem more emotional at this than at any of the damage or death caused by said villain. :S

The action is loud and mind numbing, FAR too long. Again, Superman can't really be put in "danger" per se, so watching him get punched or shot over and over means nothing. There is no tension in a fight where the guy cannot even be wounded. Superman action scenes have to revolve around others for them to work. This is Transformers explosion porn nonsense. Just putting lots of "cool" scenes on screen doesn't do anything. As said earlier in the thread, there is too much action and not enough reflection of the action. I don't like comparing franchises because it leads to juvenile fanboy arguing and such, but the Avengers for instance made sure to humanise the victims of the invasion, and make it clear the heroes actually cared. Given this film had more violence, destruction and implied death than the Avengers, what do they do for the sequel? Will Superman start throwing moons at people?

Too much time with Krypton. Jor-El is not the story, and neither is his planet. Obviously having a big star like Crowe meant they felt the need to write entire chunks of the movie for him when the character exists only to give exposition to Clark, and thus us as well. The entire opening sequence of 20 minutes or whatever could be removed since Clark learns about the events when we are all told AGAIN a play by play of the events we had just seen.

The current obsession in Hollywood for shaky cam action and filming is just awful. Not just in Man of Steel to be fair, but it sucks everywhere. I also noticed that they used the Battlestar Galactica trick of "shaky cam from a distance, then a quick zoom on a moving object" thing. Most of the flying scenes were good to me, quite fun, but that was overused.

I have numerous minor quibbles, the lack of reason for the suit, just "here's a blue and red suit no-one on Krypton wore, so wear it", or the non-linear stuff which I rarely like, or the "Zod and crew come from Phantom zone, so they must be sent back there to defeat them" which we've already seen in a Superman film. I had thought they were taking a nice risk, which I liked a lot, by dispensing with the fake Clark Kent persona, since EVERYONE must know who he is based on the events of the film. But then they went ahead with it right at the end? :S He wasn't even wearing his glasses when he arrived at the Daily Planet? His face will be the most known on Earth after these events.

But in the end, it just feels like a missed opportunity. Like the people who made it don't really get Superman. He is supposed to be morally unshakeable, and it's NOT boring if done right. Being moral should be the hardest thing to do, killing should be the easiest. Any chump can kill. Having the power to, but choosing not to is much better, more heroic. What's heroic about snapping someone's neck? That's why Superheroes are SUPER heroes. He couldn't find a way of stopping Zod's oddly James Bond laser-esque slow motion attack on that wall? Perhaps the super speed he never seemed to use on ground?

No, just wasn't impressed in general. It's better than Superman Returns, but like Routh, Cavill wasn't given the script and film he needed IMO. Both guys wasted in the role when they could have had so much more to work with.

 

[The Guard]

This is the last time I'm going to make this point, but here goes. The conflict within Superman's character comes from that. How can I stop these people in their steps whilst also trying to protect people from them?

The conflict in Superman's character comes from a number of places.

That doesn't address the fact that, in the middle of pitched battle, it might not even be possible or realistic to do so.

And Mark Waid is the last place I'd look for the definitive take on Superman.

 

[RedIsNotBlue]

He "threatened" he would kill humans .... then of course spends the rest of the time brawling. The only time he attempted to actually kill a human at that portion of the move was at the end when their brawl brought them to some random area where a few randomly displaced humans are hiding behind rubble.

Once again did you miss the scene where he turned on the machine to go ahead and start terraforming the planet???

 

[Rock Sexton]

Well if you are going into the psychological aspect of it is obvious in that scene right before that tornado that Clark is really going through the feelings of anger, feeling lost, and alone...hence the argument and harsh words with Jonathan prior. So when he made the gesture as if he was going to come save him and Jonathan signaled for him not to because his entire life his father had told him his powers and existence were bigger than potentially exposing himself to the world when they were not ready for it. It's easy to say "Clark should have just said screw it I can save him" but you are sort of just casting aside the actual feelings and human condition of that scene.

I must not be human then. The argument was just angst, the kinds of things we say to loved ones when we're frustrated. It was moot by the time Clark was watching Pa Kent unable to scramble to get away. You could see it in his eyes.

..... and I'm still trying to figure out how Clark saving Pa Kent would somehow expose him to all of human kind? Like I said, everone else was scurring to get the hell out of there.

 

[BlueLantern]

You don't agree with what?

That it was a weak point for Superman? The film shows us it is.

Zod isn't some sentimental ******* who was just out to punish Superman initially.

He wanted to find the codex, period. He was doing his duty to Krypton.

By the end of the film, Zod has figured out how much Superman cares for the people of Earth. He hates him for it. And he does try to hurt him by killing humans.

I don't agree with the concept that they exploited the weak point. And like you said, not until the end of the movie.

If I was Zod, I'd ensure that whilst the Black Zero/World Engine's doing its thing, any Kryptonians I could spare (and there was a few unnamed ones) were out there torturing humanity so that Clark couldn't go out and stop them without truly feeling the pain of being unable to protect people.

He's not shirking his duty to Krypton but is intrinsically safeguarding its future by disabling any threats towards that specific goal.

Is that going too far? Well tough ****. Jor-El says that Clark will only know his power and strength when he keeps testing his limits. That's a perfect place to confront that theory. Hell, when Zod stands there defeated spiritually in front of Clark, he should've gone straight for the Planeteers.

You can say that he did when he flew straight at Clark, but let's be honest here, he wasn't. He was going for Clark and not his weak point. Anyway, that's my opinion on that. This is going in circles.

And Mark Waid is the last place I'd look for the definitive take on Superman.

That's your opinion. Not mine. For me, he's done the best origin story possible for Superman alongside Johns' more reverent to Donner origin. Hence, I trust his opinion as have others who've read his reaction on the film and the comics he's written to date.

 

[Rock Sexton]

Once again did you miss the scene where he turned on the machine to go ahead and start terraforming the planet???

We're speaking specifically to the scene where Zod rages on Supes and tells him that his revenge will be to kill every single human on the planet. That happens at the end when they begin their brawl.

 

[Skrilla31]

But in the end, it just feels like a missed opportunity. Like the people who made it don't really get Superman.

I am not surprised, seeing as the project was roughly handled by the same people who didn't really get Batman either.

 

[RedIsNotBlue]

I must not be human then. The argument was just angst, the kinds of things we say to loved ones when we're frustrated. Their argument in the car was moot by the time Clark was watching Pa Kent unable to scramble to get away. You could see it in his eyes.

..... and I'm still trying to figure out how Clark saving Pa Kent would somehow expose him to all of human kind? Like I said, everone else was scurring to get the hell out of there.

No you are human....that is my point. We all make different decisions and you saying Clark should have acted a certain way and that is just not how it works especially, like I said, if you are going through all those kinds of emotions at that point in your life and your father, who has hammered home the point NOT to do something your entire life tells you once again DON'T DO IT.

And it wasn't the fact that Clark would have DEFINITELY exposed himself but it was potential. You deny that?

 

[Rock Sexton]

No you are human....that is my point. We all make different decisions and you saying Clark should have acted a certain way and that is just not how it works especially, like I said, if you are going through all those kinds of emotions at that point in your life and your father, who has hammered home the point NOT to do something your entire life tells you once again DON'T DO IT.

And it wasn't the fact that Clark would have DEFINITELY exposed himself but it was potential. You deny that?

Clark had already been shown to do it anyways .... i.e. the school bus and those people weren't even his family.

The movie kept trying to force feed me the point, but it's not logical. Neither is the idea he would expose himself if everyone else was running away. They wouldn't have seen what occurred.

 

[RedIsNotBlue]

We're speaking specifically to the scene where Zod rages on Supes and tells him that his revenge will be to kill every single human on the planet. That happens at the end when they begin their brawl.

Yeah but I don't get the argument. From the very get go he obviously has little care for human life and towards the end he has nothing to lose and wants to just hurt Kal El anyway he can so of course he would want to kill humans even more. I don't really understand the debate here?

 

[RedIsNotBlue]

Clark had already been shown to do it anyways .... i.e. the school bus and those people weren't even his family.

The movie kept trying to force feed me the point, but it's not logical. Neither is the idea he would expose himself if everyone else was running away. They wouldn't have seen what occurred.

Like I said...it really is a choice and how you feel about it type thing. Not really a flaw of the film it just brings up questions and debate. You didn't agree with it or like it...I did. Agree to disagree...lol.

 

[Iceman]

That Jonathan Kent scene seemed like a waste to me. Not saying it didn't work but I don't agree with the logic behind it and I think he had more to contribute to this franchise with a [BLACKOUT]future death being even more meaningful[/BLACKOUT]. Great choice of actor to play the role and I wish he'd have been given more time.

 

[Skrilla31]

Clark had already been shown to do it anyways .... i.e. the school bus and those people weren't even his family.

The movie kept trying to force feed me the point, but it's not logical. Neither is the idea he would expose himself if everyone else was running away. They wouldn't have seen what occurred.

Exactly. Pa Kent even said that "one day" Clark was going to have to make a choice. Well it looks like Clark had already made the choice. Clearly he wants to save the people even if it matters exposing who he is. So I don't understand why his father wants him to continue hiding from it.

And if Pa Kent envisioned a day where his son would in fact eventually reveal himself... then could there have POSSIBLY been a better opportunity than the moment he found himself about to be engulfed by a tornado? Clark was old enough at that point. It's not like he was a kid who needed to be protected. Clearly Clark was ready and willing to save his father... but for some RIDICULOUS reason, Pa Kent tells him to fall back.

It just doesn't make any sense. It was force fed. That's why the drama isn't there. Bad writing.

 

[RedIsNotBlue]

Exactly. Pa Kent even said that "one day" Clark was going to have to make a choice. Well it looks like Clark had already made the choice. Clearly he wants to save the people even if it matters exposing who he is. So I don't understand why his father wants him to continue hiding from it.

And if Pa Kent envisioned a day where his son would in fact eventually reveal himself... then could there have POSSIBLY been a better opportunity than the moment he found himself about to be engulfed by a tornado? Clark was old enough at that point. It's not like he was a kid who needed to be protected. Clearly Clark was ready and willing to save his father... but for some RIDICULOUS reason, Pa Kent tells him to fall back.

It just doesn't make any sense. It was force fed. That's why the drama isn't there. Bad writing.

Actually his choice was when Zod came looking for him and protecting the entire planet Earth...but yeah. Like I said it was obvious he was still lost, alone, angry, and confused about his existence at the point...hence him wandering all of those years searching for meaning and answers.