What can DC/WB do now to move forward? Is there hope? - Part 1

[Flint Marko]

I don't know why we need to keep saying the same thing four years later, but here we are.

People need an excuse for why their preferred movies didn't get the reaction they feel it deserves.

 

[writer0327]

Its the dark knight effect but it only works for batman

It can work for other characters and properties if done properly. I just don't understand the fascination. It's almost like people believe that something that isn't dark isn't good.

 

[2kt09]

It can work for other characters and properties if done properly. I just don't understand the fascination. It's almost like people believe that something that isn't dark isn't good.

Is that really the dark knight effect?
I thought it had to do with grounding everything,
whilst retaining enough of the sensational qualities (aesthetic, action, story, etc) to make said property recognizable.

 

[metaphysician]

"Generic blockbuster"?

Iron Man 2
Iron Man 3
Avengers: Age of Ultron
Ant-Man
Doctor Strange

^All qualify. Civil War evades it (but not by much).

The action/story/antagonist of MoS > all of the above. That's right.

You have a very curious eye for story. Especially since the story in MoS is a terrible mess of incoherence and conflicting themes, told badly via flashbacks that don't lead to anything.

 

[Wildcard]

Of those listed, MoS is only superior to IM 2 & 3. The rest stomp badly all over MoS in terms of direction, writing, execution, visuals and everything else.

 

[reverse flash]

It can work for other characters and properties if done properly. I just don't understand the fascination. It's almost like people believe that something that isn't dark isn't good.

I think at this current juncture its best for batman and whenever gotham is shown. It might have for suicide sqaud but given the changes and reshoots well never know. I laughed at how badly it didnt work for the amazing spiderman 1 and 2

 

[Doctor Jones]

There is no hope for this universe. WB has not learned a damn thing. It's the whole regime. Even if something like WW is good, you can't have a successful universe with just one good superhero movie. Okay, what if Batman succeeds? Then you just got a Batman and Wonder Woman series of films going for you. That's not even half impressive.

 

[Ghost_Rider]

Of those listed, MoS is only superior to IM 2 & 3. The rest stomp badly all over MoS in terms of direction, writing, execution, visuals and everything else.

What makes MOS supposedly 'superior' to IM3?


IM3 had;

- much stronger critical reviews

- stronger audience reviews

- stronger legs that allowed it to gross 1.215 Billion WW.


By all measurable standards, IM3 was received much better.

 

[reverse flash]

There is no hope for this universe. WB has not learned a damn thing. It's the whole regime. Even if something like WW is good, you can't have a successful universe with just one good superhero movie. Okay, what if Batman succeeds? Then you just got a Batman and Wonder Woman series of films going for you. That's not even half impressive.

If batman and wonder woman are good and become a series of good films thats bad? Or is it bad there not building towards the next big team up like marvel or each movie stereotypically being a commercial for the next marvel film?

What happens this year if wonder woman and justice league are both hits like marvel and WB gets it going in the right direction with the same cast and director? Do you still fire snyder and everyone in charge?

Its like football where one year you go 6-10 and finish last. Next year is a new year to regroup and re focus your strategy. Its entirely possible to turn the ship around. Marvel just happens to be the patriots right now and there formula for success is dominating.

 

[writer0327]

If batman and wonder woman are good and become a series of good films thats bad? Or is it bad there not building towards the next big team up like marvel or each movie stereotypically being a commercial for the next marvel film?

What happens this year if wonder woman and justice league are both hits like marvel and WB gets it going in the right direction with the same cast and director? Do you still fire snyder and everyone in charge?

Its like football where one year you go 6-10 and finish last. Next year is a new year to regroup and re focus your strategy. Its entirely possible to turn the ship around. Marvel just happens to be the patriots right now and there formula for success is dominating.

If you are building a "universe" then you need more than just a good Batman and/or good Wonder Woman film. It really is about connective tissue, a "big team up" as you call it. You need to have a complete universe where one films builds upon another, not just a couple of good standalone films calling themselves a "universe". If that was the case, you might as well not do a universe.

 

[Sorath]

If batman and wonder woman are good and become a series of good films thats bad? Or is it bad there not building towards the next big team up like marvel or each movie stereotypically being a commercial for the next marvel film?

What happens this year if wonder woman and justice league are both hits like marvel and WB gets it going in the right direction with the same cast and director? Do you still fire snyder and everyone in charge?

Its like football where one year you go 6-10 and finish last. Next year is a new year to regroup and re focus your strategy. Its entirely possible to turn the ship around. Marvel just happens to be the patriots right now and there formula for success is dominating.

Could they turn things around possible. The problem is they got off on the wrong foot. They rushed trying to get to Justice League they did a piss poor job of setting up the characters. However this minor issue compared to everything else.

The problem with DC films comes down to the writers. They have the wrong writers and have for a while. David S. Goyer is great writer. He great at writing dark films but it's all he knows how to do. If you look at almost all films he written their all dark story lines that's great for Batman films but bad idea for other DC films.

Now what they need to do was bring in more well rounded writers from DC to write their script which I think they are trying to do. You can't have some one like David S. Goyer who films are typically dark writting for a character like Superman who supposed to bring light out of darkness. That is just idiotic. They hired him because he had great success with Dark Knight series.

You need writers who can jump between writing for Superman but also capable of writing for Batman. What also important is having a writer who can write a little of both. You need well rounded writers who understand all the characters and how to balance them all out when you bring them together.

The other problem I see is that DC is rushing and not taking their time. Batman v Superman was a travesty. They tried to give fans everything they ever wanted to see in DC film all in one film. The problem was they did piss poor job of doing it. They didn't do any of it any real Justice.

You want to do the Death of Superman then do that. If you want to do the Dark Knight Returns then do that. Don't go in and pull bits and piece of elements from various events that people love and use them in one film.

Taking you're time and not rushing is another massive problem. They need to flesh out Superman while introducing some the other DC characters. Batman could have waited a while. He had more screen time in last ten years then any other DC characters. I know Superman has had some to. But Superman has to be done write in my opinion because he the hero every one looks up to. When the chips are down and all hope seems to be loss Superman is one every one turns to for hope. If you don't have him done write then everything else won't work very well.

Right now WB has there work cut out for them. Wonder-Women will decided how fast a Batman film gets made. IF wonder-Women doesn't do well then Batman will be put on hold till after Justice League comes out. If Justice League doesn't earn a lot of money (I mean it should be a smash hit out the door) that will be it. I think WB will put almost all their future plans on hold.

However we will have to wait and see. I think Wonder-Women will actually be really good. It's more a matter of will it draw in enough movie goers. Not sure on Justice League. I don't like their pick for the Flash. The movie fills rushed and I completely hated the fact that they killed Superman off so soon and not established the universe a lot more before doing the Death of Superman. Like I said will have to wait and see.

 

[ManWithNoName18]

Rock again double downs on Fun DC movies

Dwayne JohnsonVerified account ‏@TheRock 48m48 minutes ago
Dwayne Johnson Retweeted Yahoo Movies
DC fans will start to see this shift in tone in future movies. Exciting time and I'm fired up to help usher in a new DC era. #BlackAdam

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

What makes MOS supposedly 'superior' to IM3?


IM3 had;

- much stronger critical reviews

- stronger audience reviews

- stronger legs that allowed it to gross 1.215 Billion WW.


By all measurable standards, IM3 was received much better.

And the thing is, IM3 is probably Shane Black's worst movie as a director. If Snyder directed it, I would unhesitatingly say it was Snyder's best.

Black is a far better director overall.

 

[Wildcard]

What makes MOS supposedly 'superior' to IM3?


IM3 had;

- much stronger critical reviews

- stronger audience reviews

- stronger legs that allowed it to gross 1.215 Billion WW.


By all measurable standards, IM3 was received much better.

You know what? You're right. I tried for a response but the more I did while reflecting on IM3 the more your and Kahran Ramsus's statements ringed true to me.

 

[kguillou]

Ironman 3 is like The Dark Knight Rises, both very well received movies but with some creative decisions that deeply divided a moderately sized portion of the fanbase.

Also, I'm going to go against the grain here,I know Marvel started a popular trend with the shared universe but I don't think everything NEEDS to be this constant build up to something else. I think DC would do well just to make individual standalone epic films that tell done in one stories but STILL exist in a connected universe with other movies but are not slaves to those other movies. You could still have little hints, nods and and maybe teases to other films down the line, but I don't think each film needs to be a building block towards some main event 10 years down the line. That's Marvel's thing, they're good at it, let them do that. I like the Nolan approach: BB, TDK and TDKR are each their own standalone films, but when put together they create an epic 3 -part Batman tale.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Ironman 3 is like The Dark Knight Rises, both very well received movies but with some creative decisions that deeply divided a moderately sized portion of the fanbase.

TDKR is a film I really am a big fan of.

Also, I'm going to go against the grain here,I know Marvel started a popular trend with the shared universe but I don't think everything NEEDS to be this constant build up to something else. I think DC would do well just to make individual standalone epic films that tell done in one stories but STILL exist in a connected universe with other movies but are not slaves to those other movies. You could still have little hints, nods and and maybe teases to other films down the line, but I don't think each film needs to be a building block towards some main event 10 years down the line. That's Marvel's thing, they're good at it, let them do that. I like the Nolan approach: BB, TDK and TDKR are each their own standalone films, but when put together they create an epic 3 -part Batman tale.

Sure. I have no problem if they go with that approach. Provided those individual films maintain a consistently good quality, of course.

 

[Osiris-Rex]

Could they turn things around possible. The problem is they got off on the wrong foot. They rushed trying to get to Justice League they did a piss poor job of setting up the characters. However this minor issue compared to everything else.

The problem with DC films comes down to the writers. They have the wrong writers and have for a while. David S. Goyer is great writer. He great at writing dark films but it's all he knows how to do. If you look at almost all films he written their all dark story lines that's great for Batman films but bad idea for other DC films.

Now what they need to do was bring in more well rounded writers from DC to write their script which I think they are trying to do. You can't have some one like David S. Goyer who films are typically dark writting for a character like Superman who supposed to bring light out of darkness. That is just idiotic. They hired him because he had great success with Dark Knight series.

Isn't that what WB is now doing by letting Ben Affleck and Geoff Johns write The Batman and letting Geneva Robertson-Dworet write the Gotham City Sirens movie?

 

[Yowza]

Dark vs. not so Dark is what's going to kill it for DC.

I like what "Reverse Flash" said comparing 1 year vs. another sort of like a football series but I don't think things will turn in DC's favor putting them ahead of the curve this year at all...

"Sorath", I think the WB executives agree with you... Problem is, there's just too many captains to turn the ship. Creatively they're in 1 direction and if they go another they're either going to capsize (unlikely) or simply coast along behind other studio superhero films by suddenly ungrounding what they have going. Like "2kt09" said, darkness sometimes may just be an attempt to ground said action, ect. to invest an audience.

They'll need to tread a certain line to satisfy all and it's not going to be easy especially since Superhero films have been so many as of late and differentiation may be difficult...

I think contained films as "kguillou" said could work as a fallback option (sort of loose connections then trying re-connect at some point if decide to). Things bit too rushed and it will be complicated to see if they can get through this... I think WB is realizing this hence smaller budgeted films like Sirens as well as familiar territory in "The Batman" to hopefully segue off original movie lineup plan a bit into another area if need be.

One thing I don't like is it sort of feels like WB originally meant to follow up the Batman trilogy with something for superman and the character got shunted. If MOS came out in 2005, I think that would've gotten a full trilogy too. A lot of the weaknesses/faults were also in the Nolan batman movies just maybe not as apparent at times or worked better for said movies for most people. It is what it is.

 

[Boy Scout]

Ironman 3 is like The Dark Knight Rises, both very well received movies but with some creative decisions that deeply divided a moderately sized portion of the fanbase.

Also, I'm going to go against the grain here,I know Marvel started a popular trend with the shared universe but I don't think everything NEEDS to be this constant build up to something else. I think DC would do well just to make individual standalone epic films that tell done in one stories but STILL exist in a connected universe with other movies but are not slaves to those other movies. You could still have little hints, nods and and maybe teases to other films down the line, but I don't think each film needs to be a building block towards some main event 10 years down the line. That's Marvel's thing, they're good at it, let them do that. I like the Nolan approach: BB, TDK and TDKR are each their own standalone films, but when put together they create an epic 3 -part Batman tale.

I'd be down for that.

 

[Flint Marko]

Ironman 3 is like The Dark Knight Rises, both very well received movies but with some creative decisions that deeply divided a moderately sized portion of the fanbase.

Also, I'm going to go against the grain here,I know Marvel started a popular trend with the shared universe but I don't think everything NEEDS to be this constant build up to something else. I think DC would do well just to make individual standalone epic films that tell done in one stories but STILL exist in a connected universe with other movies but are not slaves to those other movies. You could still have little hints, nods and and maybe teases to other films down the line, but I don't think each film needs to be a building block towards some main event 10 years down the line. That's Marvel's thing, they're good at it, let them do that. I like the Nolan approach: BB, TDK and TDKR are each their own standalone films, but when put together they create an epic 3 -part Batman tale.

I've thought of this myself and I agree. Given how WB's slate keeps shifting, with movies being pushed back and re-scheduled on a semi-regular basis, it seems it would be more efficient if WB truly just let each film-maker just tell the story they want as long as it does not contradict what came before.

 

[BestGirl]

Ironman 3 is like The Dark Knight Rises, both very well received movies but with some creative decisions that deeply divided a moderately sized portion of the fanbase.

Also, I'm going to go against the grain here,I know Marvel started a popular trend with the shared universe but I don't think everything NEEDS to be this constant build up to something else. I think DC would do well just to make individual standalone epic films that tell done in one stories but STILL exist in a connected universe with other movies but are not slaves to those other movies. You could still have little hints, nods and and maybe teases to other films down the line, but I don't think each film needs to be a building block towards some main event 10 years down the line. That's Marvel's thing, they're good at it, let them do that. I like the Nolan approach: BB, TDK and TDKR are each their own standalone films, but when put together they create an epic 3 -part Batman tale.

I really don't like superhero team up movies as they tend to feel overly crowded so I approve of your idea. Unfortunately, I don't think WB will be able to resist the siren call of the potentially higher BO an ensemble movie emits.

 

[BestGirl]

One thing I don't like is it sort of feels like WB originally meant to follow up the Batman trilogy with something for superman and the character got shunted. If MOS came out in 2005, I think that would've gotten a full trilogy too. A lot of the weaknesses/faults were also in the Nolan batman movies just maybe not as apparent at times or worked better for said movies for most people. It is what it is.

I was so pissed about the lack of a true Superman sequel that I couldn't even get excited about BVS. The knowledge that Snyder was directing didn't help matters.

 

[Wildcard]

I think ensemble superhero movies are great when they're done right & it isn't a case like BvS where it's a shared movie but the focus is put specifically/mostly on one character in particular.

Take Civil War, for example. It's Captain America's movie but features a bunch of other heroes while avoiding making him look less integral to the overall set-up.

Imo, both the solo ventures and team projects are all important. It's just a matter of handling them properly.

 

[Yowza]

I was so pissed about the lack of a true Superman sequel that I couldn't even get excited about BVS. The knowledge that Snyder was directing didn't help matters.

In retrospect I think a larger proportion of people perhaps feel the same way at this point by the sound of this thread.

People blame darkness... Well, look at the TV shows and they're all essentially WB tonality. Audience don't really expand beyond that.
It's too simplistic to think dark or lightness are what's to blame. Unless making a purely fun movie like Toy Story or something, a certain level of gravity without seeming stodgy or formulaic is necessary to ground things to a certain extent. There are other elements to blame for the issues with past movies no doubt.

As for ensemble movies, I think "Wildcard" is right. Things need to be juggled properly when making an ensemble film. However, when an ensemble film is necessary of course is a totally separate question. I wasn't so much pissed when I heard a Superman vs. Batman movie was being made but curious how this is going to be handled. Afterwards, with the reshoots on suicide squad as well as all the backtracking in tonality and so forth I haven't even bothered to watch anything beyond MOS yet. Oh well...

Edit: I will say it's a good thing WB has allowed extended cuts of both their films for home release. However, from what I read on suicide squad there's still a lot left out. I won't hurry to watch this film until I hear otherwise from a reliable source outside the director whose of course thinking career (can't blame him there he's doing his job).

 

[writer0327]

I think ensemble superhero movies are great when they're done right & it isn't a case like BvS where it's a shared movie but the focus is put specifically/mostly on one character in particular.

Take Civil War, for example. It's Captain America's movie but features a bunch of other heroes while avoiding making him look less integral to the overall set-up.

Imo, both the solo ventures and team projects are all important. It's just a matter of handling them properly.

I think superhero team-up movies must be earned. You just can't throw a bunch of different characters into a film and expect people to like it. BvS didn't earn a team-up because they didn't set up the solo films first, and it was made worse because it had no focus.