What can DC/WB do now to move forward? Is there hope? - Part 1

[Flint Marko]

I've never understood taking umbrage with a faceless group of hundreds of unrelated movie critics all over the globe simply because the accumulated percentage of people who liked a movie isn't to your liking. You, the one on the superhero message board complaining about the bias amongst critics, are the one with the bias.

 

[Erzengel]

It's funny the Beckinsale Underworld movies are all pretty much panned critically but have audience scores in the 60s just like two other DCEU movies.

 

[Boy Scout]

Are people seriously still perpetuating the myth that critics have an unearned, negative bias toward Zack Snyder and the DCEU?

 

[Erzengel]

It makes sense.

I mean the only other possible scenario is that the movies just don't click with a lot more people.

 

[InCali]

I still don't know which one I think is worse Thor or Thor 2; but the reception both those films received made me stop believing in RT before I even really did. Both films are rotten to the core with shallow story and poor acting.

I'm not quite sure what you are saying. It seems like you're saying you t stopped believing in something you never started believing in.

What I think you "are" saying is that you disagree with the RT critics which is probably not all that uncommon.

"You don't agree with me so therefore you are biased" creates a self contained truism that has no external validity. I hear people say things like that, but I have a hard time believing that they really believe it themselves. I think what happens is people get frustrated by something and lash out at it.

Most critics liked Thor better than MoS. That appears to be true. Some liked MoS better than Thor. That also appears to be true.

Liking or disliking a movie doesn't factually make a movie better or worse.

 

[Greenlite]

"My opinion does not match up with the opinion of RT critics; therefore they are biased." Classic.

Well, Civil War's b.o. multiplier=2.2, SS=2.4-2.5, yet the difference for the critics' score's 60%, and you choose to ignore the negative bias among critics in contrast to moviegoers who voted with their money, then that's your opinion as well, and I don't see this discussion going anywhere anyway, completely separate wavelength. I'm not saying SS is a masterpiece, but in the same level as U4?

Underworld 4 has a lower RT score than both BvS and SS, so I'm not even sure what Greenlite is talking about.

Last time I checked (would be 2-3 months ago) SS and BvS were lower than U4, now U4 has 26%, SS 26%, BvS 27%, so I'm not making s*** up.

The big difference is that no one was expecting anything from underworld but that same cannot be said for BvS and SS. Expectations tamper one's view of the film even though the film should be judged purely on it's merits but that would only happen in a perfect world.
Also for me and many people out there BvS and SS were utter garbage and it wouldn't surprise me if underworld was a better film than either, even though I heard it was utter garbage as well.

If you bother watching U4 (which I don't recommend), IMHO, it's utter garbage. Action is inferior, and no story, like, no plot, and same critic score.

But again, that is only my personal opinion.

 

[MbJ]

Are people seriously still perpetuating the myth that critics have an unearned, negative bias toward Zack Snyder and the DCEU?

These are the same people who despite a heavily publicized course correction from WB, will insist there was nothing wrong with the movies.

If the post-course correction movies do get better reception anyone wanna take bets on whether or not the Critics can't be trusted! conspiracy theory will stick around?

 

[Boy Scout]

G-Lite: All I'll say is that two movies can suck equally as hard for different reasons.

EDIT:

If the post-course correction movies do get better reception anyone wanna take bets on whether or not the Critics can't be trusted! conspiracy theory will stick around?

Yes. Those people will then claim that the studio "gave into the hate" and "Marvel-ized" their movies, resulting in shallow crowd pleasers that the critics will eat up.

 

[kguillou]

See, to me, "garbage" is a term I'd use for films like Catwoman and Green Lantern and Jonah Hex, and Blade Trinity, films that have not a single one redeeming quality about them, films that fail on every technical level. If Green Lantern, for example, had at least ONE really notable action sequence, I could see myself rewatching the film from time to time to at least rewatch that. But there's nothing there to revisit. Matrix Reloaded, is a film that has an absolutely stupid plot and makes no damn coherent sense whatsoever, and really draaaags in spots, but I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't rewatch that bad boy over and over just to relive the Agent Smith clone fight and the Ghost Twins fight and that absolutely amazing Highway chase sequence. Matrix Reloaded and Revolutions, even though they absolutely fail on a plot and coherence level, I couldn't call them "garbage" because on a technical level they are a marvel to look at. I use that comparison because I feel like even if you don't like Snyder's film or direction of the characters and plot, you gotta admit, on a purely technical level, his films really stand out.

Just my opinion though.

 

[I Am The Knight]

Maybe critics found Underworld 4 slightly less s***y than BvS/SS?

Also, Underworld 4 probably knows what it is and has fun with it. BvS is completely oblivious.

 

[metaphysician]

Oh, I agree. I'm just saying if there are 200 reviews, you can pretty conclusively say that the 90% is an accurate reflection of what the critics as a whole actually think. You really can't with 10 reviews.

That's one big reason why Rotten Tomatoes is better than Metacritic, at least for films. RT gets way more reviews than Metacritic does. Take Rogue One, for example. Metacritic has 51 reviews. RT has 330.

RT also doesn't futz around with weighted review aggregations. RT measures something clear and inarguably: "Do you, the critic, recommend this movie, yes or no?" Its a nice clean binary response that one can trust is accurate.

Metacritic, not only do they try to convert a whole bunch of incompatible scales into a percentage rating, but then they apply non-public "weighting" to reviews, so that some are worth more than others? Why and how? Who knows.

 

[Greenlite]

These are the same people who despite a heavily publicized course correction from WB, will insist there was nothing wrong with the movies.

If the post-course correction movies do get better reception anyone wanna take bets on whether or not the Critics can't be trusted! conspiracy theory will stick around?

FYI, my "bias" towards these movies does not stop me from understanding the need for course correction to garner better critical, audience, fans and media receptions.

If critics like them, good for them, they do not form my opinion on whether I should like a film or not, I only care about their opinions so WB/DC can continue pumping out films for us to watch and enjoy, instead of having a monopoly of the Marvel way for the next 10 years.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

RT also doesn't futz around with weighted review aggregations. RT measures something clear and inarguably: "Do you, the critic, recommend this movie, yes or no?" Its a nice clean binary response that one can trust is accurate.

Metacritic, not only do they try to convert a whole bunch of incompatible scales into a percentage rating, but then they apply non-public "weighting" to reviews, so that some are worth more than others? Why and how? Who knows.

That would be the other big reason why I prefer RT.

 

[Timebomb]

See, to me, "garbage" is a term I'd use for films like Catwoman and Green Lantern and Jonah Hex, and Blade Trinity, films that have not a single one redeeming quality about them, films that fail on every technical level. If Green Lantern, for example, had at least ONE really notable action sequence, I could see myself rewatching the film from time to time to at least rewatch that. But there's nothing there to revisit. Matrix Reloaded, is a film that has an absolutely stupid plot and makes no damn coherent sense whatsoever, and really draaaags in spots, but I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't rewatch that bad boy over and over just to relive the Agent Smith clone fight and the Ghost Twins fight and that absolutely amazing Highway chase sequence. Matrix Reloaded and Revolutions, even though they absolutely fail on a plot and coherence level, I couldn't call them "garbage" because on a technical level they are a marvel to look at. I use that comparison because I feel like even if you don't like Snyder's film or direction of the characters and plot, you gotta admit, on a purely technical level, his films really stand out.

Just my opinion though.

God I love that highway scene. Brilliant. The movie, ehh.... however, those movies you mentioned at the beginning of your post, I probably wouldn't ever watch again if I can help it. I feel the same way about BVS. I probably will never watch it again. So, to me it's kinda garbage.

 

[JtheDreamer]

Well, Civil War's b.o. multiplier=2.2, SS=2.4-2.5, yet the difference for the critics' score's 60%, and you choose to ignore the negative bias among critics in contrast to moviegoers who voted with their money, then that's your opinion as well, and I don't see this discussion going anywhere anyway, completely separate wavelength. I'm not saying SS is a masterpiece, but in the same level as U4?


Last time I checked (would be 2-3 months ago) SS and BvS were lower than U4, now U4 has 26%, SS 26%, BvS 27%, so I'm not making s*** up.


If you bother watching U4 (which I don't recommend), IMHO, it's utter garbage. Action is inferior, and no story, like, no plot, and same critic score.

But again, that is only my personal opinion.

SS was complete and utter dogsh-- outside of a few decent "moments". It deserved every single bit of that 26%.

BvS on the other hand suffered some serious backlash for taking two iconic comic book characters who were meeting for the 1st time ever in a live action film and making audiences suffer through a dark brooding, deconstructionist take with glaring editing issues. That's what contributed to the 27%. Reviewers put some extra mustard on the disappointment from it - not that the story was dumpster fire like SS.

 

[Superchan]

SS was complete and utter dogsh-- outside of a few decent "moments". It deserved every single bit of that 26%.

BvS on the other hand suffered some serious backlash for taking two iconic comic book characters who were meeting for the 1st time ever in a live action film and making audiences suffer through a dark brooding, deconstructionist take with glaring editing issues. That's what contributed to the 27%. Reviewers put some extra mustard on the disappointment from it - not that the story was dumpster fire like SS.

Shattered expectations definitely contributed to BvS's laughable score but ultimately the movie earned it's score for being a complete and utter dogsh** for many people who were unfortunate to sit through it.

 

[DrCosmic]

All of the terrible films have redeeming qualities. Green Lantern has some fun action and a few very solid comedic moments in addition to some great performances from the supporting cast. That's why it's rated the same as BvS, because it is just as easy to find the good in Green Lantern as it is in BvS. Catwoman had a beautiful woman at the top of her fitness game, and actually some pretty slick Capoeria in it. If it had tripled it's budget and spent it on action scenes and marketing, it probably could have gotten up to 26% as well. BvS is one of the worst comic book films of our time, and justly so.

SS was complete and utter dogsh-- outside of a few decent "moments". It deserved every single bit of that 26%.

BvS on the other hand suffered some serious backlash for taking two iconic comic book characters who were meeting for the 1st time ever in a live action film and making audiences suffer through a dark brooding, deconstructionist take with glaring editing issues. That's what contributed to the 27%. Reviewers put some extra mustard on the disappointment from it - not that the story was dumpster fire like SS.

I think you're downplaying that BvS was also ridiculous and illogical and misanthropic, in addition to being brooding. It decided to use very popular characters to draw more people to it's poor story and the result speaks for itself. Perhaps the film would have been rated better using characters that have been used in so many great stories consistently, but then hardly anyone would have seen it, and without a huge audience, it wouldn't have been made in the first place. It choose its own fate.

 

[Rorschach2012]

I'm wondering is it really the writing that's the problem or is it just Cavill? Because his Superman is really not resonating. I'm one of those annoying fans that prefers Hoechlin and Reeve.

They tried to modernize Superman which is admirable, but they lost all of the characters charm along the way. Captain America proved that Superman can be done right and still resonate with audiences. A dark Superman doesn't work. That's half of why Batman v Superman was such a letdown. It was supposed to be about two completely different worlds colliding. It was done so well in the DCAU, but in the DCEU, there was so little contrast between the characters that they had to make Batman a ****ing murderer in order to emphasize their differences. if they had any foresight, Batman wouldn't have been a murderer. All of his villains should be dead and now there's no fundamental difference between Red Hood and Batman.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

cavill has not been given material to work with where he can even demonstrate if he has charisma or not.

I believe he does, after seeing Man From UNCLE a few times. Very enjoyable film.

 

[Rorschach2012]

I'm such a 90s baby but come on, Superman should not be that hard, just adapt STAS. That take is just perfect. STAS Superman is definitive Superman for me

 

[smallville fan]

Well this is interesting...

The Batman: Ben Affleck Reportedly Wants to Leave the Role

Reboot time?

 

[MbJ]

They recast him twice in the 90's and just continued on. Not sure if this would be enough to get them to hit the reboot button.

 

[Jekecy]

I'm such a 90s baby but come on, Superman should not be that hard, just adapt STAS.

The last live-action Superman actor universally praised and applauded during their run was Dean Cain. Evidently it's really hard to bring Superman into the modern age.

 

[Osiris-Rex]

The last live-action Superman actor universally praised and applauded during their run was Dean Cain. Evidently it's really hard to bring Superman into the modern age.

Tyler Hoechlin as Superman was well received by both the critics and most of the fans.

"Tyler Hoechlin is the best live-action Man of Steel since the sorely underrated Dean Cain hung up his tights.This is, quite simply, Supes as he's supposed to be. Hoechlin nails both sweet, stuttering Clark Kent and his awe-inspiring alter ego, but also, the show just gets the character on a fundamental level." - Morgan Jeffery - Digital Spy.


"Superman (a dashing Tyler Hoechlin) swoops in to carry some of the burden — and to add another welcome dose of charm to the most joyful superhero drama on TV. Hoechlin nails the bespectacled, gawky side of Clark Kent" - Shirley Li - Entertainment Weekly

 

[Superchan]

The last live-action Superman actor universally praised and applauded during their run was Dean Cain. Evidently it's really hard to bring Superman into the modern age.

One could argue that Hoechlin was widely praised so it's not that hard to bring kal into the modern age.
Superman, like any other character, requires the right material to click with the audiences and it can be easily argued that Routh and Cavill haven't been given said material to resonate.
Coming from someone who has seen Cavill for 4 seasons on the tutors I can tell you all that he has BAGS of charisma and seeing how flat he was in Snyder's films proved (to me atleast) that the writing and the vision just weren't there.
At the end of the day if Cap, Thor, Guardians, Strange, Antman and even Ironman (who until 2008 was B-superhero at best) can be done right then you can bet your doughnuts and dollars that superman can too.