Homecoming What should they do with the Spidey franchise?

[Green Goblin]

I'd love to see Sony sell the movie rights to Disney/Marvel for a royalty. That way they can work on all these movies based off their high selling Play Station games while steadily having income from every time Spider-Man is on the big screen in the MCU. You guys think Marvel would ever bite on that?

Don't think so. The game franchise is hardly very profitable.

I don't see Marvel forking out for Spider-Man right now. The reality is that Sony will keep making Spider-Man flicks unless he makes $300 million at the box office which I don't see happening for a long time anyway.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Unlike some other franchises (ex. Fantastic Four), Spider-Man actually does hold a lot of value as a character. Marvel would almost certainly spend a lot of money to get the character back.

Also, given the current direction of the franchise and how poorly received TASM2 was, Sony would certainly take the deal if the offer was good enough. If the spin-offs and TASM3 do as poorly at the box office as I expect, the price Sony will accept goes down.

So the question becomes price. If the two sides can get close enough, Spidey is probably headed back to Marvel. I'm not saying it is going to happen, but it is certainly within the realm of possibility.

Of the three big properties Marvel doesn't have (Spidey, FF, X-Men), Spidey is probably by far the most likely to go back to Marvel anytime soon.

 

[spider-neil]

Unlike some other franchises (ex. Fantastic Four), Spider-Man actually does hold a lot of value as a character. Marvel would almost certainly spend a lot of money to get the character back.

They wouldn't. Why would they? The last two Spider-Man movies made a combined 1.4 and Sony would want at least that to release the rights because once those rights are gone, they are gone.

Marvel on the hand have a movie coming out next year that will almost certainly make over a billion and the have a series of smaller movies that will all make in excess of 700m each. So spending over a billion on a movie franchise when their current titles are making big bucks plus they have a ton of other characters to develop, well, that doesn't make sense.

I can however see Marvel and Sony coming to an agreement with regards to cameos or extended scenes. Spider-Man in Avengers generates a lot of buzz for both companies.

 

[Green Goblin]

Unlike some other franchises (ex. Fantastic Four), Spider-Man actually does hold a lot of value as a character. Marvel would almost certainly spend a lot of money to get the character back.

Also, given the current direction of the franchise and how poorly received TASM2 was, Sony would certainly take the deal if the offer was good enough. If the spin-offs and TASM3 do as poorly at the box office as I expect, the price Sony will accept goes down.

So the question becomes price. If the two sides can get close enough, Spidey is probably headed back to Marvel. I'm not saying it is going to happen, but it is certainly within the realm of possibility.

Of the three big properties Marvel doesn't have (Spidey, FF, X-Men), Spidey is probably by far the most likely to go back to Marvel anytime soon.

Right but that's my point. He's still on the top 10 highest grossing franchises, together with merchandise like soundtracks, toys, games etc Sony have made much more. Plus c'mon now it didn't fail it just didnt meet expectations Webb and Co are back.

Why is Marvel canceling F4 comics and not Spider-Man?

 

[hippie_hunter]

It wouldn't be renting. They would own the film rights, but pay a royalty to Sony. It's like someone inventing something and selling it to a big company for a royalty. Every time that company sells that product, they pay a small percentage (royalty) to the person that created it. They can still use that product and sell as many as they want, they just pay a certain percentage to the guy that sold it to them every time they sell/use it.

Marvel would be able to use Spidey in their MCU as much as they want, but every dollar Spidey brings in, Sony gets their cut. Marvel makes money, Sony makes money, fans are happy.

That's essentially the deal Disney made with Paramount in regards to Indiana Jones. Disney has full rights to the character now and takes all the risk while Paramount is guaranteed a percentage of all future Indiana Jones films.

Right but that's my point. He's still on the top 10 highest grossing franchises, together with merchandise like soundtracks, toys, games etc Sony have made much more. Plus c'mon now it didn't fail it just didnt meet expectations Webb and Co are back.

Except Sony doesn't have any of those rights. Before the first Amazing Spider-Man film came out, Sony sold all rights they have to Spider-Man (television, merchandising, etc.) to the Walt Disney Company in return for Marvel Entertainment no longer being involved with the films and not getting film revenues out of future Spider-Man movies like they did in the past. All merchandising revenues related to the Amazing Spider-Man films went to the Walt Disney Company, not Sony.

In the long run it was a really bad deal for Sony. Having the merchandising rights to the Spider-Man films would have really cushioned the disappointment of the Amazing Spider-Man 2 not living up to expectations. Just like how Cars isn't Pixar's top grossing film or their most critically loved, the merchandising power of the movie allowed it to be top priority for Disney. Without that merchandising, a box office disappointment hurts a lot more than it should.

Why is Marvel canceling F4 comics and not Spider-Man?

Multiple reasons. On the politics side of the issue, Sony has been very cooperative with Disney/Marvel in regards to Spider-man while 20th Century Fox hasn't. Asides from film rights, Disney/Marvel have full control over Spider-Man while the Fantastic Four and X-Men rights are a bit more muddled, 20th Century Fox has certain television, distribution, promotional, and merchandising rights to those characters. And simply put, Spider-Man is a far more powerful IP than X-Men and the Fantastic Four put together.

Also, Marvel has tried very hard to get the Fantastic Four to sell more for years whether it be through Mark Millar and Bryan Hitch, Jonathan Hickman and his FF concept, or Marvel NOW! relaunch, sales of the Fantastic Four just aren't that great. They're essentially in the same position the Avengers and Thor were in 10 years ago. Retiring the characters to a degree, build up demand, and then properly revamping them years later could probably do the Fantastic Four a lot of good. The X-Men are facing the same problem to a lesser degree.

 

[HAMMER]

Sony is up a creek right now, vastly diminishing returns from the box office and no merchandising rights. Sony needs Marvel a lot more than Marvel needs Sony.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Sell it to Disney and let Spider-man appear in Civil War with a new actor playing him.

Then reboot the film series using the same actor from Civil War but with no origin story.

 

[UltimateWebhead]

It wouldn't be renting. They would own the film rights, but pay a royalty to Sony. It's like someone inventing something and selling it to a big company for a royalty. Every time that company sells that product, they pay a small percentage (royalty) to the person that created it. They can still use that product and sell as many as they want, they just pay a certain percentage to the guy that sold it to them every time they sell/use it.

Marvel would be able to use Spidey in their MCU as much as they want, but every dollar Spidey brings in, Sony gets their cut. Marvel makes money, Sony makes money, fans are happy.

Oh, I understand now. OK. Yeah, that would be very beneficial to both sides and makes more sense.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

They wouldn't. Why would they? The last two Spider-Man movies made a combined 1.4 and Sony would want at least that to release the rights because once those rights are gone, they are gone.

Marvel on the hand have a movie coming out next year that will almost certainly make over a billion and the have a series of smaller movies that will all make in excess of 700m each. So spending over a billion on a movie franchise when their current titles are making big bucks plus they have a ton of other characters to develop, well, that doesn't make sense.

I can however see Marvel and Sony coming to an agreement with regards to cameos or extended scenes. Spider-Man in Avengers generates a lot of buzz for both companies.

Marvel would want it because in the right hands a Spider-Man film franchise could easily do a billion dollars per picture, and it would be a boost to their own SM merchandising rights as well. Especially with some major players like RDJ and Chris Evans leaving after Phase 3, Marvel could use Spidey. If Sony offered full Spider-Man rights to Marvel for $1.4 billion as you suggest, I think Marvel would take that in a second. Two movies, and Marvel would make that all back.

There is a price where Marvel would be willing to buy, and a price where Sony would be willing to sell. If those two numbers cross, it could happen.

I'm not saying it will happen, but I wouldn't be stunned if it did either.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

And simply put, Spider-Man is a far more powerful IP than X-Men and the Fantastic Four put together.

This can't be emphasized enough.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Marvel would want it because in the right hands a Spider-Man film franchise could easily do a billion dollars per picture, and it would be a boost to their own SM merchandising rights as well. Especially with some major players like RDJ and Chris Evans leaving after Phase 3, Marvel could use Spidey. If Sony offered full Spider-Man rights to Marvel for $1.4 billion as you suggest, I think Marvel would take that in a second. Two movies, and Marvel would make that all back.

There is a price where Marvel would be willing to buy, and a price where Sony would be willing to sell. If those two numbers cross, it could happen.

I'm not saying it will happen, but I wouldn't be stunned if it did either.

I think 1.4 billion is a fair price.

It would take Sony over 15 years to make that much from SM movies at this rate.

 

[harryoscop]

We all know it's going to happen eventually.

 

[spider-neil]

You guys seem to think Sony have a plethora of movie franchises to fall back on once Spider-Man has been sold, they don't. And once those rights are gone they are gone. Forever. Since Sony released Spider-Man in 2002 the movies have generated 4 billion not including merchandise (first 3 movies) or DVD/BR sales. Spider-Man is Sony's flagship franchise and won't let that go without a fight.

 

[JOE]

Don't think so. The game franchise is hardly very profitable.

I don't see Marvel forking out for Spider-Man right now. The reality is that Sony will keep making Spider-Man flicks unless he makes $300 million at the box office which I don't see happening for a long time anyway.

Why not now? If anything the storyline they're going after includes Spider-Man in a huge way. Added to the fact that Sony isn't making tons of money with Spider-Man as they were in the past 12 years. It's the best time as far as I'm concerned.

 

[SoNicRaDiATioN]

Unfortunately Sony appears willing to poison the characters long term film prospects. Nobody in the GA really gives a damn about this second rate film franchise, it's simply an afterthought compared to the other franchises in the genre. And if we're to believe that EW report regarding the talks between Marvel and Sony, they are stubborn in admitting that they don't know what to do with the franchise, even though decisions tell us clearly. They are a studio in denial. Unlike the fans, they are not interested in what's best for the characters future, just the bottom line (which makes sense for them). I think Disney has the merch rights and don't need these films mess in their universe for the price that Sony would ask for. They'll just let them hang.

 

[W/ Great Power]

A part of me agrees that Disney doesn't want to inherit Sony's mess. However, if the brand continues to decline, won't it have an impact on Disney's merchandising sales?

I think kids and adults alike will continue to purchase Spidey products, but exceptional box office outings can boost Disney's profits even more.

There's definitely some truth in the midst of this cloud of confusion, in my opinion.

 

[UltimateWebhead]

Unfortunately Sony appears willing to poison the characters long term film prospects. Nobody in the GA really gives a damn about this second rate film franchise, it's simply an afterthought compared to the other franchises in the genre. And if we're to believe that EW report regarding the talks between Marvel and Sony, they are stubborn in admitting that they don't know what to do with the franchise, even though decisions tell us clearly. They are a studio in denial. Unlike the fans, they are not interested in what's best for the characters future, just the bottom line (which makes sense for them). I think Disney has the merch rights and don't need these films mess in their universe for the price that Sony would ask for. They'll just let them hang.

So, you don't think Disney would be at all interested in helming the film production for Spider-Man? He could and should be the most profitable of all the heroes on Marvel's side of the fence. There's no reason that a Spidey movie can't make $1 Billion at the BO. And with the MCU film franchise as a backing for support, they could easily get things going in the right direction again and make that profit a reality. And as WGP stated, better films would also boost merchandising sales. My only concern about the films coming back to Marvel/Disney is the possibility that Joe Quesadilla would be involved. I don't want that guy anywhere near Spider-Man related productions. He's like Arad only worse.

 

[Zarex]

As much as Marvel would like Spidey under their control, I can't see the studio forking over $1 billion + for one character in the midst of a box office slump. Though Spider-Man still has considerable box office appeal, it would take a decade or more for Marvel to earn back that investment in box office, physical media, streaming and TV rights. Not to mention the opportunity cost of postponing investment in a character (Captain Marvel? Black Panther?) already high up in the queue.

Last year Dan Loeb, a leading Sony investor, proposed that Sony spin off their entertainment division and sell off 20% or so in an IPO. This is the kind of investment I can see Disney/Marvel making, with the Mouse buying anywhere from 20% to 51% of Sony Entertainment. Such a deal will give the Mouse some degree of control over Spidey, along with investment in franchises like MIB and Ghostbusters. It would provide Sony with a needed cash infusion and access to Disney's distribution network while maintaining a strong position in the entertainment industry.

 

[hippie_hunter]

As much as Marvel would like Spidey under their control, I can't see the studio forking over $1 billion + for one character in the midst of a box office slump.

$1 billion is very justifiable if you can make it back within a movie or two. But I don't see such an offer happening, any Disney/Marvel/Sony deal would most likely be similar to the Disney/Lucasfilm/Paramount deal with Indiana Jones. Sony would keep the rights to previously made Spider-Man films, Disney would have full film rights to future Spider-Man films in return for Sony getting a certain cut of the box office.

Also, I wouldn't call 2014 to be a genuine slump. A slump would imply that we're going to see declines for years to come. When you compare this year to last year, the natural result is a massive decline, for this year only. Last year gave us hits like Frozen, the Hobbit: the Desolation of Smaug, Hunger Games: Catching Fire, Iron Man 3, Man of Steel, Despicable Me 2, Monsters University, Star Trek into Darkness, Thor: The Dark World, Fast and Furious 6, etc. This year we have no Pixar movie, very few childrens' animated films, no Fast and Furious movie, no major DC movie, and a collection of disappointing sequels in Transformers 4 and Amazing Spider-Man 2, lower box office returns are the natural result. 2015 however is going to bring us a new Fast and Furious movie, Avengers: Age of Ultron, Star Wars Episode VII, Inside Out, Ant-Man, Jurassic World, James Bond 24, the Good Dinosaur, Minions, and other films that have a lot of potential.

Though Spider-Man still has considerable box office appeal, it would take a decade or more for Marvel to earn back that investment in box office, physical media, streaming and TV rights. Not to mention the opportunity cost of postponing investment in a character (Captain Marvel? Black Panther?) already high up in the queue.

It would take far less than a decade for Marvel to earn back a $1 billion investment from Spider-Man, even without the film rights, Spider-Man alone (not counting the rest of the Marvel characters) is a $1 billion/year brand for the Walt Disney Company. It is one of the eight brands Disney has that make well over $1 billion/year to where it is on par with Star Wars, Disney Princesses, Cars, Monsters, Mickey Mouse, Winnie the Pooh, and Disney Jr.

Last year Dan Loeb, a leading Sony investor, proposed that Sony spin off their entertainment division and sell off 20% or so in an IPO. This is the kind of investment I can see Disney/Marvel making, with the Mouse buying anywhere from 20% to 51% of Sony Entertainment. Such a deal will give the Mouse some degree of control over Spidey, along with investment in franchises like MIB and Ghostbusters. It would provide Sony with a needed cash infusion and access to Disney's distribution network while maintaining a strong position in the entertainment industry.

That will absolutely not happen. Dan Loeb was shut down pretty hard over his Sony Entertainment spin-off proposal and Disney would never invest in a company like Sony Entertainment. Franchises like Men in Black and Ghostbusters really don't fit in with the Disney mold the way Marvel and Star Wars do; Disney already has a ridiculously strong position in the entertainment industry, they have three of the top five grossing films of the year; and their a merchandising behemoth. Really the only places were it would be more beneficial for Disney to expand in entertainment would probably be having a stronger position in the video games industry and music.

 

[Zarex]

$1 billion is very justifiable if you can make it back within a movie or two. But I don't see such an offer happening, any Disney/Marvel/Sony deal would most likely be similar to the Disney/Lucasfilm/Paramount deal with Indiana Jones. Sony would keep the rights to previously made Spider-Man films, Disney would have full film rights to future Spider-Man films in return for Sony getting a certain cut of the box office.

Given that Disney/Marvel already controls a majority stake in Spidey through merchandise, animation, video games, etc, I think it would be a very tough sell to justify investing $1 billion or so to acquire a minority stake in a character whose box office fortunes have taken a tumble. Even if you amortize the cost over ten films, it's adding $100,000 to the production costs of each of each of those films. That's a hefty price to swallow, even for the mighty MCU.

It would take far less than a decade for Marvel to earn back a $1 billion investment from Spider-Man, even without the film rights, Spider-Man alone (not counting the rest of the Marvel characters) is a $1 billion/year brand for the Walt Disney Company. It is one of the eight brands Disney has that make well over $1 billion/year to where it is on par with Star Wars, Disney Princesses, Cars, Monsters, Mickey Mouse, Winnie the Pooh, and Disney Jr.

Yes, but Disney already owns a majority stake in the character. Are film rights alone worth $1 billion? I don't see it.

That will absolutely not happen. Dan Loeb was shut down pretty hard over his Sony Entertainment spin-off proposal and Disney would never invest in a company like Sony Entertainment. Franchises like Men in Black and Ghostbusters really don't fit in with the Disney mold the way Marvel and Star Wars do; Disney already has a ridiculously strong position in the entertainment industry, they have three of the top five grossing films of the year; and their a merchandising behemoth. Really the only places were it would be more beneficial for Disney to expand in entertainment would probably be having a stronger position in the video games industry and music.

Which are positions of great strength for Sony.

Dan Loeb was shut down, but that was before a $2 billion annual loss for the company. Are they going to be able to keep giving the stink eye to investors? Probably not.

We got a tease of further media consolidation this year with the proposed FOX-WB deal. I think a Sony Entertainment-Disney combination makes a lot of sense.

 

[HAMMER]

As much as Marvel would like Spidey under their control, I can't see the studio forking over $1 billion + for one character in the midst of a box office slump. Though Spider-Man still has considerable box office appeal, it would take a decade or more for Marvel to earn back that investment in box office, physical media, streaming and TV rights. Not to mention the opportunity cost of postponing investment in a character (Captain Marvel? Black Panther?) already high up in the queue.

Last year Dan Loeb, a leading Sony investor, proposed that Sony spin off their entertainment division and sell off 20% or so in an IPO. This is the kind of investment I can see Disney/Marvel making, with the Mouse buying anywhere from 20% to 51% of Sony Entertainment. Such a deal will give the Mouse some degree of control over Spidey, along with investment in franchises like MIB and Ghostbusters. It would provide Sony with a needed cash infusion and access to Disney's distribution network while maintaining a strong position in the entertainment industry.

The second part of your post is very interesting, I knew there were rumors of Sony trying to sell off its film division obviously, but this is the first I'm hearing of separating the film division and then having an IPO. Would Disney even want to touch Sony outside of Spidey though? They have their own studios and distribution companies and outside of Spidey and shared 007 rights, Sony has no other franchises to their own, their studio is near bankrupt, and their executive office is a mess right now (Granted, a lot of this is based on Nikki Finke's writings). Plus, with a 20% IPO the wouldn't have anywhere near a controlling interest in the studio even if they bought all of it.

The first part of your post is the sad part of all this. Disney doesn't need to do anything really at all. They will continue to make Spidey toys and cartoons and they'll continue to sell regardless of how bad the movies are failing, so Disney is making their money without any risk. Sony is the one who needs the handout, because Spidey isn't making them anymore money. Sure it made them money in the past, but Hollywood is the epitome of 'What have you done lately' business and lately Spidey hasn't done squat for Sony.

EDIT Just to touch on a few more points, Dan Loeb was pretty much skewered by George Clooney in public, which forced him to back off is stance last year. Since then, he's been pretty quiet, although he was right, and Monuments Men tanked, so Clooney looks like even more of a *****e-nozzle than usual.

I just don't see Disney giving $1 billion dollars to Sony just for the right to make live-action Spider-Man movies again. I could see some sort of quasi-Paramount deal happening where Disney gets him back and Sony gets a a small cut of Spidey Box office from here on out.

 

[SoNicRaDiATioN]

Or Disney could just wait until 2016 when the likely disappointment of SS gives them even greater leverage. Perhaps to the point where they could buy the film rights outright and at a cheaper price.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Given that Disney/Marvel already controls a majority stake in Spidey through merchandise, animation, video games, etc, I think it would be a very tough sell to justify investing $1 billion or so to acquire a minority stake in a character whose box office fortunes have taken a tumble. Even if you amortize the cost over ten films, it's adding $100,000 to the production costs of each of each of those films. That's a hefty price to swallow, even for the mighty MCU.

Yes, but Disney already owns a majority stake in the character. Are film rights alone worth $1 billion? I don't see it.

Like I said, $1 billion is very justifiable when it can be remade within a film or two. The Spider-Man brand is a very strong brand, it just needs a good film to go along with it. A Disney made Spider-Man film with the Marvel branding and Disney marketing can easily top $1 billion by the first film.

Which are positions of great strength for Sony.

But Sony Computer Entertainment wasn't going to be a part of Loeb's proposed Sony Entertainment, just Sony Pictures and Sony Music.

Dan Loeb was shut down, but that was before a $2 billion annual loss for the company. Are they going to be able to keep giving the stink eye to investors? Probably not.

Sony's problems are primarily coming from its electronics division, not the film and music division.

We got a tease of further media consolidation this year with the proposed FOX-WB deal. I think a Sony Entertainment-Disney combination makes a lot of sense.

The 21st Century Fox and Time Warner deal made absolutely no sense. They really don't fulfill what both of those companies were lacking and it was just getting big for the sake of getting big. Plus the clash of cultures would have made it such an unwieldy company.

Sony Entertainment and the Walt Disney Company combining really doesn't make much sense either. The Walt Disney Company would better benefit from acquiring a video game publisher like Electronic Arts or focusing on expanding their current music line. They really don't need much anymore since the acquisitions of Pixar, Marvel, and LucasFilm pretty much filled in the gaps they had.

Sony's properties really just don't mesh very well with the Walt Disney Company either. Sony would better benefit from combining with Sumner Redstone's media empire of CBS and Viacom for a multitude of reasons than the Walt Disney Company.

 

[I'm Old Greg]

Give Spidey Back to MARVEL and Start Over!
Sony is awful.
Ruined Spidey and discontinued Dragon Tattoo sequels. Sony is a Mess.

 

[LEVITIKUZ]

Give Spidey Back to MARVEL and Start Over!
Sony is awful.
Ruined Spidey and discontinued Dragon Tattoo sequels. Sony is a Mess.

I like you Old Greg.