Which is the better political allegory? TDKR vs IM3

[Herofan]

Why couldn't he be either Batman or Bruce? Not Batman because he was apparently not needed at all for a long time (super-crime not happening at all, regular street crime down to or below regular), not Bruce apparently because Rachel had died.

 

[Awest66]

Why couldn't he be either Batman or Bruce? Not Batman because he was apparently not needed at all for a long time (super-crime not happening at all, regular street crime down to or below regular), not Bruce apparently because Rachel had died.

He was a recluse for three years because he felt he had to mothball the clean energy reactor. It had nothing to do with Rachel.

 

[henzINNIT]

He was a recluse for three years because he felt he had to mothball the clean energy reactor. It had nothing to do with Rachel.

This reads like "he didn't just quit because he lost a woman" which I get because that would make Bruce look quite lame, but surely the rebuttal of "he actually quit because his science project didn't work out" is just as lame?

I guess you really don't care for Mask of the Phantasm either.

Bad example to cite here but good for me so thanks for bringing it up. What works in MOTP is that Andrea Beaumont is a compelling love interest and the Phantasm a compelling villain, and the heartache we feel for Batman when he learns they are the same person. By contrast, TDKR's Talia is neither, so who cares.

I'm sorry but I really don't see how the twist "strips Bane of all myth" considering pretty much all Talia does when she reveals herself is talk about him, how important he is to her and how she owes basically everything to him.

I think it's painfully apparent what I mean. We spend a good chunk of time presumably learning about Bane's bad-ass origin and his motivation, only to find it was actually Talia's story. He was just another prisoner who couldn't escape and got his face buggered. Talia saying how useful he is while he sobs and fixes his mask is not an ample replacement for all that lost legend.

Bane is still absolutely the main villain of TDKR (the militaristic tone of the movie is a direct result of his character, His men fear and revere him, not Talia) and the revelation that he's not really the son of Ras Al Ghul in no way takes away from that.

He's demonstrably not the main villain. Not only is his goal revealed to be Talia's, he's then dispatched quickly by a side character, clearing the table for Talia as the final obstacle. The Talia twist absolutely takes away from Bane. Even the most loyal fan can do the math and see he loses ground simply by sharing duties. But TDKR goes further because of the above. Talia's final words to Bane before goodbye are an order.

Bane is not the "fake Mandarin", all the things he did throughout the movie were not invalidated by the reveal that he's working with someone else unlike Trevor who was revealed as not even being a villain period.

The fake Mandarin didn't really do anything. The only hopes dashed were expectations. The Talia twist re-contextualized an entire film's events in the closing minutes. Bane still did the things he did, of course, but there is no longer an interesting philosophy behind his actions. His goals are substantially less interesting when you know he's an extension of someone else's quest for revenge.

It didn't keep you from liking Spider-Man 3 clearly and it's much weaker than Rises is by a country mile.

Cute. But they are quite comparable really. The only superhero 2 trilogies completed by the same director. Both in the shadow of superior 2nd installments. Bane is every bit the meme legend that Emo Peter is.

I'd definitely watch SM3 over TDKR. If I'm going for the bloated sequel with a silly plot, Spider-Man vs the evil alien goo or Batman saves Gotham from a giant bomb, I'll go with the more self-aware one.

TDKR was a story about a man with a death wish learning to appreciate life again and that part was executed flawlessly to me so I've never really bought into the complaints about how allegedly "terrible" the script is.

Spider-Man 3 is a coming of age epic about a superhero who must learn humility and forgiveness. Words are a wonderful thing. We see what we want to see and I don't want to spoil it for you if you enjoy the film. No film is flawless however, and certainly not TDKR.

These explanations are pretty questionable to me. If Harvey was in a coma, He's still technically alive and could potentially come out of it and there's no way you could convince me that neither Batman nor Gordon would check him for signs of life. Bottom line, If Harvey is alive, there's no way either Bruce or Gordon could feasibly think that they could lie to protect his image and keep it up for very long.

Dead for 6 minutes. Revived by previously mentioned shady EMTs at another villain's behest. Neither Gordon or Batman know until the film starts.

You could make it work based on what we see in TDK. We've seen much more contrived things work in the past. The minutiae of his return was of less interest than the thematic potential of using him as an actual character. Wasn't TDKR described as being about pain before? I reckon Harvey Dent had more in the tank, and was worth a second look after losing Ledger.

 

[Brother Jack]

He was a recluse for three years because he felt he had to mothball the clean energy reactor. It had nothing to do with Rachel.

It wouldn't be fair to say it had nothing to do with Rachel. Without Batman in his life, Bruce didn't have the "normal life" to fall back on without Rachel. That's the great irony of the ending of TDK; Bruce is able to use Harvey as the means to fulfill his mission and stop being Batman, which is what he wanted, but because Rachel was dead and Harvey was a corrupted idol it's not in the way that would fix the city long-term and allow him to actually let go of Batman and live his life as himself. So it has as much to do with the reactor project failing as it does with Rachel, or to be more precise, the illusion of the life Bruce thought he could have with Rachel.

 

[Awest66]

This reads like "he didn't just quit because he lost a woman" which I get because that would make Bruce look quite lame, but surely the rebuttal of "he actually quit because his science project didn't work out" is just as lame?

He didn't quit being Batman for either reason. I should have worded it better but he became a recluse because of the fusion project being mothballed, which happened five years after the end of the Dark Knight. He states his reasoning to Gordon in the hospital for why he stopped going out as a vigilante "The Batman wasn't needed anymore, We won".

Bad example to cite here but good for me so thanks for bringing it up. What works in MOTP is that Andrea Beaumont is a compelling love interest and the Phantasm a compelling villain, and the heartache we feel for Batman when he learns they are the same person. By contrast, TDKR's Talia is neither, so who cares.

Whether either character is compelling or not doesn't factor into my statement. Your complaint was that the "worlds greatest detective" couldn't pick up on something that we could and I mentioned Phantasm as an example of what you mentioned.

I think it's painfully apparent what I mean. We spend a good chunk of time presumably learning about Bane's bad-ass origin and his motivation, only to find it was actually Talia's story. He was just another prisoner who couldn't escape and got his face buggered. Talia saying how useful he is while he sobs and fixes his mask is not an ample replacement for all that lost legend.

Remember when Bane stated that "was born in darkness and didn't see the light until he was a man" thereby giving a pretty blatant indication that he wasn't the child who escaped the pit? or that Bruce was told of Bane's injuries in the pit and yet in the flashbacks the child escapes with no visible injury whatsoever? Taking these into account it creates a mystery around the whole situation that the revelation of Talia solves because their pretty clear indicators from the outset that Bane wasn't the child who escaped the pit. Also Bane's motivations (fulfilling Ras Al Ghuls destiny) are in no way changed by this.

Talia never once mentions how "useful" Bane is, She's talking about how much he means to her, how important he is to her and how she owes everything to him. There two halves of a greater whole. One is not above the other here.

He's demonstrably not the main villain. Not only is his goal revealed to be Talia's, he's then dispatched quickly by a side character, clearing the table for Talia as the final obstacle. The Talia twist absolutely takes away from Bane. Even the most loyal fan can do the math and see he loses ground simply by sharing duties. But TDKR goes further because of the above. Talia's final words to Bane before goodbye are an order.

Why? Because his defeat isn't the climax of the movie? I guess by that logic Loki isn't the main villain of the Avengers, The Chitauri are (I mean they're still an active threat after he's humiliated by the Hulk and the climax is them being deactivated). Again, The militaristic tone of the movie is a direct result of his character, It's his movie just as much as the Dark Knights is the Joker's. Also was it really an order? Sounded more like a request to me (Partners are capable of giving each other instruction you know) Also the way she touched his face and gave him a pretty tender goodbye, You just don't do that to a henchman.

Hell, He disobeys this supposed "order" as soon as she leaves.

The fake Mandarin didn't really do anything. The only hopes dashed were expectations. The Talia twist re-contextualized an entire film's events in the closing minutes. Bane still did the things he did, of course, but there is no longer an interesting philosophy behind his actions. His goals are substantially less interesting when you know he's an extension of someone else's quest for revenge.

How do you figure that? Bane's motivation from the outset was made very clear (fulfill Ras Al Ghuls destiny) and the fact that Talia shares it doesn't make it any less his. He very clearly has his own stake in destroying Gotham, no matter his relationship with Talia. Why would he call himself "The League of Shadows" in his fight with Batman? and take pretty clear relish in punishing him for betraying them? I have a really hard time believing he did all that just to protect Talia's identity.

I'd definitely watch SM3 over TDKR. If I'm going for the bloated sequel with a silly plot, Spider-Man vs the evil alien goo or Batman saves Gotham from a giant bomb, I'll go with the more self-aware one.

Anne Hathaway's Catwoman is a more interesting, not to mention likable character than anyone in Spider-Man 3 and Talia may not be great but she's still a more credible not to mention believable threat than Eric Forman as Venom. The scene of Bruce making the jump to escape the pit is more memorable than the entirety of that movie.

Spider-Man 3 is a coming of age epic about a superhero who must learn humility and forgiveness.

The difference is that Bruce's arc is actually executed well and in a much more satisfying way in a far less cluttered narrative.

Dead for 6 minutes. Revived by previously mentioned shady EMTs at another villain's behest. Neither Gordon or Batman know until the film starts.

I'm really not sure that would be feasible considering he fell and broke his neck but okay, That's a way they could have gone I suppose. There's a number of ways Nolan could have gone without brining back the Joker. He could have bowed to WB and made the villain the Riddler, He could have gone with Hugo Strange or Penguin. The reason he chose Bane was because he could test Batman on both a mental and physical level and that's what intrigued him. Maybe if Nolan had stepped aside and a new director was brought in to make the final movie, He could have done something like what you suggest but we'll never know. If they had brought back Two-Face, what would be his schtick? Would he be a bank robber/mobster? would he run for Mayor like the Telltale Games?

Honestly, I'm happy they went with Bane and that he was finally portrayed as something more than just a glorified luchador wrestler whose motivation for fighting Batman is a paycheck (his default portrayal in basically everything else)

 

[Awest66]

It wouldn't be fair to say it had nothing to do with Rachel. Without Batman in his life, Bruce didn't have the "normal life" to fall back on without Rachel. That's the great irony of the ending of TDK; Bruce is able to use Harvey as the means to fulfill his mission and stop being Batman, which is what he wanted, but because Rachel was dead and Harvey was a corrupted idol it's not in the way that would fix the city long-term and allow him to actually let go of Batman and live his life as himself. So it has as much to do with the reactor project failing as it does with Rachel, or to be more precise, the illusion of the life Bruce thought he could have with Rachel.

You're right, I should have worded it better. Rachel is indeed part of the reason why Bruce became a recluse but not why he gave up being Batman.

 

[Herofan]

He states his reasoning to Gordon in the hospital for why he stopped going out as a vigilante "The Batman wasn't needed anymore, We won".

He felt he won but that left him feeling depressed or didn't prevent him from being depressed, let alone suicidal?

he became a recluse because of the fusion project being mothballed, which happened five years after the end of the Dark Knight.

Why would giving up on that, because it was too dangerous/risky, cause him to be disinterested in or give up on philanthropy in general?

Bane's motivation from the outset was made very clear (fulfill Ras Al Ghuls destiny) and the fact that Talia shares it doesn't make it any less his. He very clearly has his own stake in destroying Gotham, no matter his relationship with Talia.

His motivations and stakes seem to be just agreeing with Ra's philosophy as well as anger at Bruce over betraying Ra's. So not a mere tool for Talia but still far from his own unique man let alone, other than physically, a great villain to Batman.

 

[Awest66]

He felt he won but that left him feeling depressed or didn't prevent him from being depressed, let alone suicidal?

He wasn't depressed over the state of Gotham city, He was depressed because he felt that there was nothing out there for him and there was no reason for him to carry on.

 

[henzINNIT]

He didn't quit being Batman for either reason. I should have worded it better but he became a recluse because of the fusion project being mothballed, which happened five years after the end of the Dark Knight. He states his reasoning to Gordon in the hospital for why he stopped going out as a vigilante "The Batman wasn't needed anymore, We won".

Yeah I know. I think the case being made is that TDKR presents us with a Bruce Wayne who has quit everything and that not being particularly sympathetic.

As I said, Bruce quitting is lame whether it's because of his not-girlfriend dying or because his project failed. It's compounded by Batman quitting as well, because it means we are rooting for a completely inactive protagonist. There being no crime and no need for the cape is a bit contrived but an acceptable excuse. For Batman. Bruce is just wallowing in self-pity.

Whether either character is compelling or not doesn't factor into my statement. Your complaint was that the "worlds greatest detective" couldn't pick up on something that we could and I mentioned Phantasm as an example of what you mentioned.

But it does factor into the argument. The one we're having. About the Talia twist, why it doesn't work, and why it hurt Bane. MOTP is a great comparison to demonstrate that point.

Your statement is implying that TDKR deserves slack for a weakness because there is a similar one elsewhere. It's a weak argument. It's been a long time since I've seen MOTP so you'll have to be more specific about the situation, but I already think it's going to be different circumstances. Bruce believes he knows Andrea and missing clues that connect her to a villain is understandable. In TDRK, Bruce is interacting with Bane, a threatening villain of mysterious origins, so he should be paying attention.

Remember when Bane stated that "was born in darkness and didn't see the light until he was a man" thereby giving a pretty blatant indication that he wasn't the child who escaped the pit? or that Bruce was told of Bane's injuries in the pit and yet in the flashbacks the child escapes with no visible injury whatsoever? Taking these into account it creates a mystery around the whole situation that the revelation of Talia solves because their pretty clear indicators from the outset that Bane wasn't the child who escaped the pit. Also Bane's motivations (fulfilling Ras Al Ghuls destiny) are in no way changed by this.

Why are you using this as if it's a strength? Bane's origins are kept vague for a bait and switch with Talia. We all understand this. So why is a list of reasons of how we and Bruce should know beforehand a good thing? These aren't cool things to pick up on upon rewatch, these are clues Batman should have picked up on and doesn't for the sake of the twist. It makes him look foolish, and the twist contrived.

Talia never once mentions how "useful" Bane is, She's talking about how much he means to her, how important he is to her and how she owes everything to him. There two halves of a greater whole. One is not above the other here.

Talia describes Bane as her protector who's only 'crime' was loving her. Sounds pretty useful to me. More-over, it sounds nothing like a 50/50 split. By this point in the film we know the motivation behind this plot was hers and we are given no reason to believe he is there for any reason other than she is.

Why? Because his defeat isn't the climax of the movie? I guess by that logic Loki isn't the main villain of the Avengers, The Chitauri are (I mean they're still an active threat after he's humiliated by the Hulk and the climax is them being deactivated). Again, The militaristic tone of the movie is a direct result of his character, It's his movie just as much as the Dark Knights is the Joker's.

Ha, what is it with you and terrible examples? Loki is the foe defeated at the end. Remember than big hero shot with the team posing over him in Stark tower? Where he's conclusively shown to be defeated by the heroes? Why on earth pick that film man...

Also was it really an order? Sounded more like a request to me (Partners are capable of giving each other instruction you know) Also the way she touched his face and gave him a pretty tender goodbye, You just don't do that to a henchman.

Hell, He disobeys this supposed "order" as soon as she leaves.

Yes it was an order. Bane was about to do something. She said don't. He stopped. Talia doesn't have to act like a dictator to have authority over him, she clearly loves him, but yes. She tells him what to do.

And like a typical henchman, Bane waits until she is gone to disobey her. If he had equal footing, he would have had a say.

How do you figure that? Bane's motivation from the outset was made very clear (fulfill Ras Al Ghuls destiny) and the fact that Talia shares it doesn't make it any less his.

Sure it does. We are told he 'is' the League of Shadows, intent on fulfilling Ras' destiny. We are then led to believe he is the son of Ras. We then find out that in fact Talia is the daughter of Ras and she's motivated because Batman killed him. Why presume any of the set up is true when we know he's keeping a secret?

He very clearly has his own stake in destroying Gotham, no matter his relationship with Talia. Why would he call himself "The League of Shadows" in his fight with Batman? and take pretty clear relish in punishing him for betraying them? I have a really hard time believing he did all that just to protect Talia's identity.

What stake, exactly? How could he believe he 'is' the LoS when he was kicked out, and is at best sharing leadership with Talia? He's a character that toys with people by feeding them false hope and snuffing it out. He lies constantly to achieve his goals. You're taking a lot from those lines.

Anne Hathaway's Catwoman is a more interesting, not to mention likable character than anyone in Spider-Man 3

I like Hathaway's Catwoman a lot. SM4's Black Cat at one stage. The connections never cease.

Talia may not be great but she's still a more credible not to mention believable threat than Eric Forman as Venom.

There are no winners in that particular fight. Topher Grace is Topher Grace but Talia was a horrendous waste of Marion Cotillard.

The scene of Bruce making the jump to escape the pit is more memorable than the entirety of that movie.

Okay scene. The bats were laying it on too thick. It's also dumb that Bruce even survived falling on those ropes multiple times with his back.

Honestly, I'm happy they went with Bane and that he was finally portrayed as something more than just a glorified luchador wrestler whose motivation for fighting Batman is a paycheck (his default portrayal in basically everything else)

On this we agree, and though I sound down on him I actually thoroughly love Bane in this film. Just much more before the twist than after.

 

[Awest66]

Yeah I know. I think the case being made is that TDKR presents us with a Bruce Wayne who has quit everything and that not being particularly sympathetic.

As I said, Bruce quitting is lame whether it's because of his not-girlfriend dying or because his project failed. It's compounded by Batman quitting as well, because it means we are rooting for a completely inactive protagonist. There being no crime and no need for the cape is a bit contrived but an acceptable excuse. For Batman. Bruce is just wallowing in self-pity.

How is he not sympathetic? He didn't abandon Gotham when it needed him like in the Dark Knight Returns and once he's made to understand there's a threat in Gotham, He's right back in the saddle so he actually spends the bare minimum of the movie being inactive. Bruce wallowing in self-pity is kind of the point here, He feels he has nothing left to live for so he's basically just counting the days until he dies and the then he discovers a newfound appreciation for life by learning to fear death again.

. Bruce believes he knows Andrea and missing clues that connect her to a villain is understandable. In TDRK, Bruce is interacting with Bane, a threatening villain of mysterious origins, so he should be paying attention.

This is not a fair comparison because in TDKR, Bruce is not being shown the things we are. Bruce isn't seeing the flashback of the child who escaped the pit and what's more, he's given absolutely no reason to suspect Talia as a member of the LOS. Bruce is not a terrible detective because he doesn't have telepathic powers. Just because he's "paying attention" doesn't mean he can't get things wrong.

Why are you using this as if it's a strength? Bane's origins are kept vague for a bait and switch with Talia. We all understand this. So why is a list of reasons of how we and Bruce should know beforehand a good thing? These aren't cool things to pick up on upon rewatch, these are clues Batman should have picked up on and doesn't for the sake of the twist. It makes him look foolish, and the twist contrived.

How exactly could Bruce have "picked up" on these things when he's not actually being shown them?, These are meant for the viewing audience. Bruce is no more foolish for not figuring out Bane isn't the child of Ras Al Ghul than Tony Stark was for not immediately not figuring out the Mandarin.

Talia describes Bane as her protector who's only 'crime' was loving her. Sounds pretty useful to me. More-over, it sounds nothing like a 50/50 split. By this point in the film we know the motivation behind this plot was hers and we are given no reason to believe he is there for any reason other than she is.

And then she makes it quite clear how much she cares for him and how she went to the trouble of going back to the pit to get him out. Unless she was planning to become a terrorist from a young age and realized the man who selflessly saved her back in the pit would be a useful asset, It's pretty damn clear she has a genuine affection for him that goes beyond "you're just useful muscle for my cause". I'd say Bane's "you betrayed us" to Bruce in the sewer fight and his reaction to Bruce insulting him over his excommunication are pretty clear indicators that he's not doing this just for Talia.

Ha, what is it with you and terrible examples? Loki is the foe defeated at the end. Remember than big hero shot with the team posing over him in Stark tower? Where he's conclusively shown to be defeated by the heroes? Why on earth pick that film man...

Because your whole argument as to why Bane isn't the "main villain" of the movie is because his defeat/death wasn't the climax of the movie. That "hero shot" in the Avengers? It's not actually the climax, it's just an add-on. Bane was also shown to be conclusively defeated by Batman in battle even if he wasn't actually killed by him as well.

Yes it was an order. Bane was about to do something. She said don't. He stopped. Talia doesn't have to act like a dictator to have authority over him, she clearly loves him, but yes. She tells him what to do.

And like a typical henchman, Bane waits until she is gone to disobey her. If he had equal footing, he would have had a say.

She makes a request of him and then puts her hand on his mask as to say a very tender goodbye. You really look at that and think "Oh Talia's totally ordering him around like a henchman"? Bane disobeying her regardless of whether or not she's actually in the room is also pretty clear evidence at least to me that he has his own agency.

Bane not wasting time trying to argue with her while there's a bomb about to blow up is a pretty weak argument for him being a henchman.

Sure it does. We are told he 'is' the League of Shadows, intent on fulfilling Ras' destiny. We are then led to believe he is the son of Ras. We then find out that in fact Talia is the daughter of Ras and she's motivated because Batman killed him. Why presume any of the set up is true when we know he's keeping a secret?

And is that changed by the revelation that he's not actually the child of Ras? I really don't see how considering he never at any point implies as such and he flat out tells Bruce he never escaped the pit. If he didn't lie about that, Why would he lie about anything else?

What stake, exactly? How could he believe he 'is' the LoS when he was kicked out, and is at best sharing leadership with Talia? He's a character that toys with people by feeding them false hope and snuffing it out. He lies constantly to achieve his goals. You're taking a lot from those lines.

Just because he was kicked out doesn't mean he wouldn't believe in what they stood for and he's portrayed as much more of an active leader of the League on the front line than she is. How is Bane telling Bruce he's the League of Shadows giving him false hope before snuffing it out? He's never at any point shown to lie to Bruce before he reveals his intention to give Bruce false hope

I like Hathaway's Catwoman a lot. SM4's Black Cat at one stage. The connections never cease.

Not really a connection to Spider-Man 3 specifically.

 

[henzINNIT]

How is he not sympathetic? He didn't abandon Gotham when it needed him like in the Dark Knight Returns and once he's made to understand there's a threat in Gotham, He's right back in the saddle so he actually spends the bare minimum of the movie being inactive. Bruce wallowing in self-pity is kind of the point here, He feels he has nothing left to live for so he's basically just counting the days until he dies and the then he discovers a newfound appreciation for life by learning to fear death again.

Because he was not proactive. He gave up. And his quitting had consequences, like no longer funding the orphans.

This is not a fair comparison because in TDKR, Bruce is not being shown the things we are. Bruce isn't seeing the flashback of the child who escaped the pit and what's more, he's given absolutely no reason to suspect Talia as a member of the LOS. Bruce is not a terrible detective because he doesn't have telepathic powers. Just because he's "paying attention" doesn't mean he can't get things wrong.

How exactly could Bruce have "picked up" on these things when he's not actually being shown them?, These are meant for the viewing audience. Bruce is no more foolish for not figuring out Bane isn't the child of Ras Al Ghul than Tony Stark was for not immediately not figuring out the Mandarin.

Re-read your own posts, where you told me that Bane already said enough to Batman to confirm that he couldn't be the kid who escaped the pit. It's literally from this argument and a point you made. Here, I'll quote you, including your prompt to 'remember' because it's just too perfect:

Remember when Bane stated that "was born in darkness and didn't see the light until he was a man" thereby giving a pretty blatant indication that he wasn't the child who escaped the pit?

I do remember. He said this to Batman. Batman should remember. He should have caught this contradiction. It wouldn't lead him to the answer but it is a significant flaw that he doesn't think to ask the question. Once again, it is contrived so the twist can land.

And then she makes it quite clear how much she cares for him and how she went to the trouble of going back to the pit to get him out. Unless she was planning to become a terrorist from a young age and realized the man who selflessly saved her back in the pit would be a useful asset, It's pretty damn clear she has a genuine affection for him that goes beyond "you're just useful muscle for my cause".

You're mistaking me saying Bane is 'useful' to Talia for me saying Talia is using Bane. These are not the same thing. I've already said she clearly loved him.

You're also mistaking Talia loving Bane for a reason she can't be in charge. He is her muscle and she loves him. She may value him above the usual lackey, but that doesn't change the fact that she is revealed to have the agenda, and he is revealed to be her protector.

I'd say Bane's "you betrayed us" to Bruce in the sewer fight and his reaction to Bruce insulting him over his excommunication are pretty clear indicators that he's not doing this just for Talia.

Any faceless LOS goon would say the same thing to Batman. It's as generic as they come. We are shown that Talia has the interesting motivation, and Bane's relation to the plot is through her. Knowing about his motivation is sacrificed for Talia. You couldn't say with any certainty that Bane would be doing this if Talia wasn't there. It's clearly personal for her. Bane was long ex-communicated from the group, and she only came back to avenge her father.

Because your whole argument as to why Bane isn't the "main villain" of the movie is because his defeat/death wasn't the climax of the movie. That "hero shot" in the Avengers? It's not actually the climax, it's just an add-on.

This is garbage. Come on. The original point sucked anyway so I will back out of this cul-de-sac.

She makes a request of him and then puts her hand on his mask as to say a very tender goodbye. You really look at that and think "Oh Talia's totally ordering him around like a henchman"?

Well you are quite literally twisting her saying "Don't" into a supposed request as you suggest that I'm misreading things. Remarkable.

Bane disobeying her regardless of whether or not she's actually in the room is also pretty clear evidence at least to me that he has his own agency.

Sure it is. When I want to prove that I'm not under someone's thumb, I always do what they say to their face and then disobey them when they're not looking. It's how all 50/50 partnerships function.

Bane not wasting time trying to argue with her while there's a bomb about to blow up is a pretty weak argument for him being a henchman.

Nah my argument for Bane being a henchmen is that he does villainous acts for someone else's cause, protects that villain, and is shown to be told what to do by that villain. It's a crazy theory, I know.

And is that changed by the revelation that he's not actually the child of Ras? I really don't see how considering he never at any point implies as such and he flat out tells Bruce he never escaped the pit. If he didn't lie about that, Why would he lie about anything else?

He said he IS the League of Shadows which is revealed to be untrue. That's like half of your example quotes right there.

Just because he was kicked out doesn't mean he wouldn't believe in what they stood for and he's portrayed as much more of an active leader of the League on the front line than she is. How is Bane telling Bruce he's the League of Shadows giving him false hope before snuffing it out? He's never at any point shown to lie to Bruce before he reveals his intention to give Bruce false hope

He said he IS the League of Shadows which is revealed to be untrue. That's like half of your example quotes right there. He's.... lying to hide Talia's identity.

 

[Awest66]

Because he was not proactive. He gave up. And his quitting had consequences, like no longer funding the orphans.

And he works to amend those consequences once he's told there's a threat brewing that needs his help. He's "non-proactive" for the bare minimum.

Re-read your own posts, where you told me that Bane already said enough to Batman to confirm that he couldn't be the kid who escaped the pit. It's literally from this argument and a point you made. Here, I'll quote you, including your prompt to 'remember' because it's just too perfect:

I never once said anything like that. My argument was that was a clue for the audience themselves and just going off that and taking into account that Batman has no way of seeing the flashbacks that were seeing about the child, He doesn't have enough to put together that Bane isn't actually the child who escaped the pit and even then, He has no reason to suspect Miranda of anything.

You're also mistaking Talia loving Bane for a reason she can't be in charge. He is her muscle and she loves him. She may value him above the usual lackey, but that doesn't change the fact that she is revealed to have the agenda, and he is revealed to be her protector.

So is there any actual reason why they can't have the same agenda? Is there a scene that shows Talia planning every step of the plan and giving Bane instruction on what to do? Is there a scene where Bane confesses that he doesn't actually believe in the Leagues agenda and is only doing this because Talia wants him too? I've watched that scene quite a few times and I can't recall any of the above.

Yes Talia called her "protector" because he protected her in the pit but that doesn't mean he's just a glorified bodyguard.

Any faceless LOS goon would say the same thing to Batman. It's as generic as they come. We are shown that Talia has the interesting motivation, and Bane's relation to the plot is through her. Knowing about his motivation is sacrificed for Talia. You couldn't say with any certainty that Bane would be doing this if Talia wasn't there. It's clearly personal for her. Bane was long ex-communicated from the group, and she only came back to avenge her father.

Or maybe and hear me out, They have the exact same motivation.

I mean there's nothing in the actual movie that contradicts this idea and the idea of Bane being excommunicated was to set him up as being too extreme in his pursuit of the League's philosophy (which is also not disproven by the reveal either) and the fact that he made such a big deal to Bruce about punishing him for his betrayal of the League is pretty clear evidence he's not doing this just for Talia.

Well you are quite literally twisting her saying "Don't" into a supposed request as you suggest that I'm misreading things. Remarkable.

"Don't" can be a request too you know and I don't know about you but I can't really think of many other examples of fiction where the "main villain" gives someone an order and then intimately touches their face to say a sincere goodbye.

Nah my argument for Bane being a henchmen is that he does villainous acts for someone else's cause, protects that villain, and is shown to be told what to do by that villain. It's a crazy theory, I know.

Problems with this argument are it's clearly his cause as much as Talia's, is never shown to protect her outside of the their origin in the pit, and the only "order" she's actually shown to give him he promptly disobeys.

He said he IS the League of Shadows which is revealed to be untrue. That's like half of your example quotes right there. He's.... lying to hide Talia's identity.

Here's the thing though, He's never shown trying to hide Talia's identity, at all. If he were, He'd do something like order the doctor in the pit to not tell Bruce the story or tell him that the Childs protector was the one who made the leap. His declaration to Bruce in the sewer, that's not hiding anything because he has no reason to believe that Bruce suspects anyone else of being the true leader.

 

[henzINNIT]

And he works to amend those consequences once he's told there's a threat brewing that needs his help. He's "non-proactive" for the bare minimum.

This is true. Just for years, longer than he spent being Batman and with no end in sight until someone robs him. It's not the end of the word. It's not one of my bigger issues with the film.

I never once said anything like that. My argument was that was a clue for the audience themselves and just going off that and taking into account that Batman has no way of seeing the flashbacks that were seeing about the child, He doesn't have enough to put together that Bane isn't actually the child who escaped the pit and even then, He has no reason to suspect Miranda of anything.

He should be way ahead of clueless on the subject. Bane said he didn't see the light until he was a man. Bruce is then told in prison of the child that escaped, that the child had a protector, and that Bane's face got ruined being attacked by prisoners. I'm not the world's greatest detective but they look like sizable clues to me. He shouldn't suspect Miranda Tate specifically but he was given plenty to be suspicious of.

So is there any actual reason why they can't have the same agenda?

No. I'm sure they do, more or less. They're not completely in sync considering how each person wants Batman to die differently, but are both willing to die nuking Gotham for essentially the same goals.

Is there a scene that shows Talia planning every step of the plan and giving Bane instruction on what to do?

There's a scene where the real child of legend steps forward and explains their evil schemes, revealing that Bane is in fact their protector. Is there anything Bane does that couldn't have been at Talia's behest?

Is there a scene where Bane confesses that he doesn't actually believe in the Leagues agenda and is only doing this because Talia wants him too? I've watched that scene quite a few times and I can't recall any of the above.

There's 2 scenes that mention how Bane was expelled by the very league he is apparently dedicated to, and a backstory that only relates him to them through his protection of Talia.

Yes Talia called her "protector" because he protected her in the pit but that doesn't mean he's just a glorified bodyguard.

The prisoners also refer to him as the child's protector. He clearly does more than solely act as a bodyguard. A lot of Bane is shrouded in mystery, but Talia could have said anything about Bane, his relation to her, his function in the group etc etc.. She chooses her protector.

Or maybe and hear me out, They have the exact same motivation.
I mean there's nothing in the actual movie that contradicts this idea and the idea of Bane being excommunicated was to set him up as being too extreme in his pursuit of the League's philosophy (which is also not disproven by the reveal either) and the fact that he made such a big deal to Bruce about punishing him for his betrayal of the League is pretty clear evidence he's not doing this just for Talia.

There's not enough about the LoS, Bane's time there, what about his methods were different, and so-on to make a strong judgement about Bane's views. Thanks to the twist and the murkiness surrounding it, you can watch TDKR thinking he's the most loyal member, or taking the absolute piss out of their memory. What little we get comes from unreliable sources, and nearly all of his story is about the pit and protecting Talia. That's my problem.

"Don't" can be a request too you know and I don't know about you but I can't really think of many other examples of fiction where the "main villain" gives someone an order and then intimately touches their face to say a sincere goodbye.

A request is asked. She did not ask. She told him. It may seem insignificant, but it is the film's fault that it is the only time we see the villains operating in the same space, and Nolan decided to imply she's calling the shots.

Problems with this argument are it's clearly his cause as much as Talia's, is never shown to protect her outside of the their origin in the pit, and the only "order" she's actually shown to give him he promptly disobeys.

Talia decided to fulfill her father's ambition after Batman killed him. That's why the plot is happening. The cause is not equally Bane's.

You can't say "Bane is never shown protecting her out of the pit" without admitting that the film didn't ever put her in a situation that would require his attention. And you're not seriously suggesting that he wouldn't either.

Disobeying a command =/= Not receiving a command.

Here's the thing though, He's never shown trying to hide Talia's identity, at all. If he were, He'd do something like order the doctor in the pit to not tell Bruce the story or tell him that the Childs protector was the one who made the leap. His declaration to Bruce in the sewer, that's not hiding anything because he has no reason to believe that Bruce suspects anyone else of being the true leader.

The prisoner telling the story is cut off by another cellmate, who tells him not to speak about it. It literally happens in the film. And it happens no sooner than it does because Nolan needs Bruce to know precisely enough about the origin to get the wrong idea. We then have to assume Bruce never asks any more questions.

 

[Awest66]

This is true. Just for years, longer than he spent being Batman and with no end in sight until someone robs him. It's not the end of the word. It's not one of my bigger issues with the film.

Well he was only a recluse for three years which actually isn't that much longer than he spent being Batman and The Dark Knight was all about how Bruce wants to stop being Batman because he believes Harvey represents a better way to help Gotham.

He should be way ahead of clueless on the subject. Bane said he didn't see the light until he was a man. Bruce is then told in prison of the child that escaped, that the child had a protector, and that Bane's face got ruined being attacked by prisoners. I'm not the world's greatest detective but they look like sizable clues to me. He shouldn't suspect Miranda Tate specifically but he was given plenty to be suspicious of.

To be fair, Bruce only makes the assumption the child was Bane when he puts it together that the mercenary of the story was Ras Al Ghul and his main concern at that point was putting himself back together to get out of the pit and save his city from being destroyed. I don't think it's that big a deal that he didn't focus on the smaller aspects of the story with a more pressing matter at hand. Just because Batman's smart doesn't mean he can't mistakes from time to time or come to the wrong conclusions on certain matters.

There's a scene where the real child of legend steps forward and explains their evil schemes, revealing that Bane is in fact their protector. Is there anything Bane does that couldn't have been at Talia's behest?

Actually Bane was the one who explained the scheme, He did that in the pit to Bruce. Talia spent her entire reveal speech talking about Bane and basically nothing else.

There's 2 scenes that mention how Bane was expelled by the very league he is apparently dedicated to, and a backstory that only relates him to them through his protection of Talia.

That's still nowhere close to actually being the scenario I'm talking about. Bane being expelled doesn't mean he stopped believing in their cause (He's pretty clearly an advocate for it as shown in every scene of the movie)

The prisoners also refer to him as the child's protector. He clearly does more than solely act as a bodyguard. A lot of Bane is shrouded in mystery, but Talia could have said anything about Bane, his relation to her, his function in the group etc etc.. She chooses her protector.

Because of what he did for her in the pit. She would never have escaped without him and he would never have escaped without her. She calls him her friend later on, thereby showing she views him as an equal which is what being friends is all about.

There's not enough about the LoS, Bane's time there, what about his methods were different, and so-on to make a strong judgement about Bane's views. Thanks to the twist and the murkiness surrounding it, you can watch TDKR thinking he's the most loyal member, or taking the absolute piss out of their memory. What little we get comes from unreliable sources, and nearly all of his story is about the pit and protecting Talia. That's my problem.

You know what that's actually a fair point but I argue there's also not enough to really present a concrete stance of him being Talia's henchman either. There was a line cut from the original script where Bane explicitly states to Batman that he's doing this out obligation to Ras himself for rescuing him from the pit but even without that, the way Bane talks at length about fulfilling his destiny I'd say is pretty clear evidence of that already.

A request is asked. She did not ask. She told him. It may seem insignificant, but it is the film's fault that it is the only time we see the villains operating in the same space, and Nolan decided to imply she's calling the shots.

So should she have said "Pretty please don't"? I don't say that to any of my friends nor do I take it to mean I'm beneath them when they don't ask that.

Talia decided to fulfill her father's ambition after Batman killed him. That's why the plot is happening. The cause is not equally Bane's.

You can't say "Bane is never shown protecting her out of the pit" without admitting that the film didn't ever put her in a situation that would require his attention. And you're not seriously suggesting that he wouldn't either.

Disobeying a command =/= Not receiving a command.

Il'' give you that Talia involved Bane in this but he very clearly takes to it with a gusto that goes way beyond "That child I helped some years ago is asking for my help".

The prisoner telling the story is cut off by another cellmate, who tells him not to speak about it. It literally happens in the film. And it happens no sooner than it does because Nolan needs Bruce to know precisely enough about the origin to get the wrong idea. We then have to assume Bruce never asks any more questions.

The guy says "This is Bane's prison, he wouldn't want the story being told" not that anyone was under specific instruction to never tell that story and considering the danger Gotham is in, It's really nowhere close to a big stretch that he has more important things to worry about than a story.

 

[henzINNIT]

Well he was only a recluse for three years which actually isn't that much longer than he spent being Batman and The Dark Knight was all about how Bruce wants to stop being Batman because he believes Harvey represents a better way to help Gotham.

It's somewhat disappointing that Nolan's Batman spends so long inactive or hoping to stop. It very much feels like we had 2 films setting the hero up and a 3rd to suddenly cap it all off. Naturally I would say this as I don't think TDKR is a satisfying sequel overall.

To be fair, Bruce only makes the assumption the child was Bane when he puts it together that the mercenary of the story was Ras Al Ghul and his main concern at that point was putting himself back together to get out of the pit and save his city from being destroyed. I don't think it's that big a deal that he didn't focus on the smaller aspects of the story with a more pressing matter at hand. Just because Batman's smart doesn't mean he can't mistakes from time to time or come to the wrong conclusions on certain matters.

He can certainly make a mistake. It's not individually a big deal I'll grant you, but for me is a part of a tapestry of niggles that add up to larger problems. It's that script again. To sell that twist Bruce has to be dumbfounded, so he's not curious. But Batman gets into the city undetected because he's Batman. Is he brilliant or just a mortal man? "No. I've come to stop you." Defeating Bane in a fairly swift fight that seems to hinge on simply hitting the bad guy in their unique spot. It's all just... dumber than I expect from Nolan. I can enjoy dumb, but Nolan dumb is too serious to be fun to me.

Actually Bane was the one who explained the scheme, He did that in the pit to Bruce. Talia spent her entire reveal speech talking about Bane and basically nothing else.

Twas a poorly chosen figure of speech.

That's still nowhere close to actually being the scenario I'm talking about. Bane being expelled doesn't mean he stopped believing in their cause (He's pretty clearly an advocate for it as shown in every scene of the movie)

Did Liam Neeson intend to die in Gotham? I ask because I don't remember, but my assumption is that he would live and do more because the League of Shadows were more globally focused than just punishing Gotham. Neither Talia or Bane seem to care about the organizations' larger goals. How much either of them care for the cause is completely questionable, as it's Talia's revenge that instigated all of this and she's honouring her father's plan.

I know Bane has loyal followers, but do we even know that they're LoS affiliated? He was said to work with mercenaries right? Having looked into him, Batman assumes there's no LoS affiliation prior to their fight. None of his research suggested Bane or his troops were LoS.

Because of what he did for her in the pit. She would never have escaped without him and he would never have escaped without her. She calls him her friend later on, thereby showing she views him as an equal which is what being friends is all about.

I've been friends with managers all the time. I've managed friends at work before too. I was their friend and I was also in charge in those instances. I don't think her affection for him, or how important he was to her personally, affect the hierarchical dynamic between them. Talia goes and Bane follows.

You know what that's actually a fair point but I argue there's also not enough to really present a concrete stance of him being Talia's henchman either. There was a line cut from the original script where Bane explicitly states to Batman that he's doing this out obligation to Ras himself for rescuing him from the pit but even without that, the way Bane talks at length about fulfilling his destiny I'd say is pretty clear evidence of that already.

That line makes a tremendous difference. I had not heard about that before. I can immediately see why you are strongly aligned where you are. Knowing this, it's much easier to make a case for director's intent with Bane, which is as you describe. Much like the previously mentioned kangaroo court line that was cut, I think this would have gone a long way to solidify Bane as a character with his own stake in this.

Without it, you still have pricks like me who'll moan that it was too vague (and of course, I still do).

So should she have said "Pretty please don't"? I don't say that to any of my friends nor do I take it to mean I'm beneath them when they don't ask that.

No that is fair. My argument is frequently vagueness so it would be disingenuous to say you couldn't read it as a request. I still believe it establishes a pecking order, paired with her having the motivation, and with how quickly Bane is dispensed after she becomes a factor. But ultimately I'm arguing that it isn't very good, well fleshed out, or clear. So it would have to be up for interpretation.

I'll give you that Talia involved Bane in this but he very clearly takes to it with a gusto that goes way beyond "That child I helped some years ago is asking for my help".

He's a great villain in that he seems to really enjoy his work. I think there is something really interesting about Bane being too much for the League, and would have enjoyed seeing more of what his vision for them was.

The guy says "This is Bane's prison, he wouldn't want the story being told" not that anyone was under specific instruction to never tell that story and considering the danger Gotham is in, It's really nowhere close to a big stretch that he has more important things to worry about than a story.

Bruce does have a city to save, but it's not like talking to the prisoners was a distraction; they were sources of information about the villain he's stopping. And he would have been there ages and for a while unable to do much but sit and talk.

 

[Awest66]

It's somewhat disappointing that Nolan's Batman spends so long inactive or hoping to stop. It very much feels like we had 2 films setting the hero up and a 3rd to suddenly cap it all off. Naturally I would say this as I don't think TDKR is a satisfying sequel overall.

Well Nolan himself has a quote about this

For me, The Dark Knight Rises (2012) is specifically and definitely the end of the Batman story as I wanted to tell it, and the open-ended nature of the film is simply a very important thematic idea that we wanted to get into the movie, which is that Batman is a symbol. He can be anybody, and that was very important to us. Not every Batman fan will necessarily agree with that interpretation of the philosophy of the character, but for me it all comes back to the scene between Bruce Wayne and Alfred in the private jet in Batman Begins (2005), where the only way that I could find to make a credible characterization of a guy transforming himself into Batman is if it was as a necessary symbol, and he saw himself as a catalyst for change and therefore it was a temporary process, maybe a five-year plan that would be enforced for symbolically encouraging the good of Gotham to take back their city. To me, for that mission to succeed, it has to end, so this is the ending for me, and as I say, the open-ended elements are all to do with the thematic idea that Batman was not important as a man, he's more than that. He's a symbol, and the symbol lives on.

 

[Solid]

They are very different films so i don't see what this compairson is about. I do think Rises handled it's themes better and is overall the better film though.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

Honestly, neither.

And you know what?

I'll add in both TDK and Winter Soldier both of whom get plaudits for some kind of deep political commentary but they really don't say much beyond boilerplate platitudes.

 

[Herofan]

the only way that I could find to make a credible characterization of a guy transforming himself into Batman is if it was as a necessary symbol, and he saw himself as a catalyst for change and therefore it was a temporary process, maybe a five-year plan that would be enforced for symbolically encouraging the good of Gotham to take back their city. To me, for that mission to succeed, it has to end

I much prefer that that was the intention, or an intention, and yet Batman actually became his true face.

 

[Awest66]

I much prefer that that was the intention, or an intention, and yet Batman actually became his true face.

I've honestly grown to dislike the whole "Batman is who he really is/Bruce Wayne doesn't exist beyond the playboy facade" notion. I think it's more complicated than that.