Which is the better political allegory? TDKR vs IM3

[MessiahDecoy123]

Easily tdkr. Better movie and allegory. It’s probably the most relevant superhero movie last decade for what’s happening in America

What exactly is happening right now?

A neofascist insurrection based on conspiracy theories and rioting due to police brutality.

I don't think TDKR predicted those accurately.

 

[Dede]

What exactly is happening right now?

A neofascist insurrection based on conspiracy theories and rioting due to police brutality.

I don't think TDKR predicted those accurately.

The storming of the capital can be looked at as blackgate with trump as bane. He’s populist who in reality is full of it and corrupt. We then had war in the streets from hear to China. It’s a little more dicey since in tdkr police were generally trying to help but I think it hits close. Then we have the empty streets and being masked which means nothing at all but is kinda funny to note

 

[Dede]

What exactly is happening right now?

A neofascist insurrection based on conspiracy theories and rioting due to police brutality.

I don't think TDKR predicted those accurately.

Also I love iron man 3. It’s my favorite mcu film because it had more to say I just think tdkr was better at but no diss towards im3

 

[Spider-Fan]

I don't really care which is the better political allegory. IM3 I have many issues with, but I still like the movie. TDKR....cannot say the same. Regardless if it is "deeper" or not, I would much rather watch Iron Man 3 on any given day

 

[henzINNIT]

The storming of the capital can be looked at as blackgate with trump as bane. He’s populist who in reality is full of it and corrupt. We then had war in the streets from hear to China. It’s a little more dicey since in tdkr police were generally trying to help but I think it hits close. Then we have the empty streets and being masked which means nothing at all but is kinda funny to note

Bane's insurrection was far too effective to be compared to Trump's supporters' efforts.They were more a black friday riot than a revolution, ha. I also think Nolan gives us insufficient information about the 'Dent Act' and the police's methods enforcing it. Opening blackgate was staged as an act of liberation by Bane, but nothing else in the film suggests the inmates were locked up unjustly. And Bane is revealed to be lying multiple times so I can only assume those prisoners were genuinely criminals. The revolution that occurred was staged by a well armed terrorist organization who had the threat of a bomb and most of the police trapped in the sewers. It pays lip service to class warfare but gives us no sense of what existence is like in Gotham, other than organized crime being largely dead.

 

[Dede]

Bane's insurrection was far too effective to be compared to Trump's supporters' efforts.They were more a black friday riot than a revolution, ha. I also think Nolan gives us insufficient information about the 'Dent Act' and the police's methods enforcing it. Opening blackgate was staged as an act of liberation by Bane, but nothing else in the film suggests the inmates were locked up unjustly. And Bane is revealed to be lying multiple times so I can only assume those prisoners were genuinely criminals. The revolution that occurred was staged by a well armed terrorist organization who had the threat of a bomb and most of the police trapped in the sewers. It pays lip service to class warfare but gives us no sense of what existence is like in Gotham, other than organized crime being largely dead.

We heard exactly that the dent act did. It denied parol which is kinda illegal. Selina talks multiple times about how bad the city and the classes are. Then there’s even the kids orphanage shutting down and getting jobs in the sewers working for bane. Gotham is shown as a hell for the lower class

 

[Batmannerism]

Bane's insurrection was far too effective to be compared to Trump's supporters' efforts.They were more a black friday riot than a revolution, ha. I also think Nolan gives us insufficient information about the 'Dent Act' and the police's methods enforcing it. Opening blackgate was staged as an act of liberation by Bane, but nothing else in the film suggests the inmates were locked up unjustly. And Bane is revealed to be lying multiple times so I can only assume those prisoners were genuinely criminals. The revolution that occurred was staged by a well armed terrorist organization who had the threat of a bomb and most of the police trapped in the sewers. It pays lip service to class warfare but gives us no sense of what existence is like in Gotham, other than organized crime being largely dead.

First, totally agree, Bane was about a million times more organized and successful than the mob who stormed the capitol - Bane held the city for months, while the mob managed to break into offices and take some selfies. Some folks here have suggested that there is evidence of a wider conspiracy of neofacists, who have infiltrated government and police - I don't know anything about that, so I can't comment.

Back to Bane and Blackgate:

I think ( will have to check) but Blake says something about the inmates at Blackgate being "locked up indefinitely without a trial".

Now being imprisoned awaiting trial is a very normal thing. If you're charged with a very serious offence e.g. murder or you're seen as a risk of interfering with witnesses, committing more offences or are considered a flight risk would probably expect to be denied bail and be in prison until your trial, which could be up to a year, maybe more.

However, you would make a number of court appearances and a trial date would be set after your second or third appearance.

So, if the inmates were locked up for years without any movement towards a trial- well that's a pretty big violation of the 5th amendment to the Constitution ( as a Bill of rights) which guarantees a right to due process of law - as well as the more well known right to silence.

 

[Batmannerism]

We heard exactly that the dent act did. It denied parol which is kinda illegal. Selina talks multiple times about how bad the city and the classes are. Then there’s even the kids orphanage shutting down and getting jobs in the sewers working for bane. Gotham is shown as a hell for the lower class

Sorry mate, denial of parole isn't necessarily illegal.

Parole is an early release, while you're still under sentence. Let's say you got an 9 year sentence for a crime. After a certain amount of time you'd be allowed to apply for parole ( which is no guarantee you'll get it) but if you're successful you get released, even though you may have only served 4 or so years. It works differently in different places e.g. where I live, you are eligible for parole after serving one third of your sentence.

A judge can impose a "minimum non parole" period, usually for violent offenders. So you might get 14 years for grievous bodily harm, and an 8 year MNP period ( usually you could ask for parole after 4 and a half years, but the judge is going to make you wait eight).

The "three strikes laws" in New Zealand worked by denying offenders parole. It's different from the 3 strikes law in California. In New Zealand if you got your 3rd strike you served the maximum sentence without parole - which means if you had 2 violent offenses and then a murder you served life without parole.

We actually sentenced our worst mass shooter to life without parole last year.

As I said in a previous post, I think the Dent Act and Blackgate prison were about holding people facing criminal charges indefinitely without a trial, which is a violation of the US Constitution.

 

[Dede]

Sorry mate, denial of parole isn't necessarily illegal.

Parole is an early release, while you're still under sentence. Let's say you got an 9 year sentence for a crime. After a certain amount of time you'd be allowed to apply for parole ( which is no guarantee you'll get it) but if you're successful you get released, even though you may have only served 4 or so years. It works differently in different places e.g. where I live, you are eligible for parole after serving one third of your sentence.

A judge can impose a "minimum non parole" period, usually for violent offenders. So you might get 14 years for grievous bodily harm, and an 8 year MNP period ( usually you could ask for parole after 4 and a half years, but the judge is going to make you wait eight).

The "three strikes laws" in New Zealand worked by denying offenders parole. It's different from the 3 strikes law in California. In New Zealand if you got your 3rd strike you served the maximum sentence without parole - which means if you had 2 violent offenses and then a murder you served life without parole.

We actually sentenced our worst mass shooter to life without parole last year.

As I said in a previous post, I think the Dent Act and Blackgate prison were about holding people facing criminal charges indefinitely without a trial, which is a violation of the US Constitution.

You’re correct. Wow I thought it was unconstitutional but it’s not. The trial part Is the main thing

 

[henzINNIT]

We heard exactly that the dent act did. It denied parol which is kinda illegal.

I wouldn't say we knew exactly what it did. Skimming the script...

The Dent act allows Selina to be locked up with men in blackgate due to 'extraordinary need', which is invoked because Selina has been breaking out of prisons since she was 16. It allowed Blackgate to 'deny parole' which isn't illegal and often used if criminals are deemed too dangerous. It depends on the specifics of the crimes and the grounds of denial as to whether the Dent act's changes were shady.

The mayor says the Dent act gave prosecutors teeth against organized crime. It 'cleaned up' the streets according to Blake. The anniversary of the act is held on Bruce's grounds and Alfred tells Daggart the dent act is about all of Gotham. Gordon describes the people detained under the dent act as violent criminals and the essential cogs of organized crime. He feels horribly guilty, but not about their methods or the detention, about having to lie to preserve Dent's reputation.

When Bane tears down the Dent act, he similarly targets Dent's reputation and the truth of his death. He says men have 'languished' for years, but never reveals how the act is bad. He simply says the act is bad because it is named after a bad person. The only prisoner of blackgate we as an audience know is Catwoman and she is clearly guilty. We see nothing of the Dent act injustice. Parole is mentioned precisely once in the whole film and it's from the mouth of Bane.

As I said in a previous post, I think the Dent Act and Blackgate prison were about holding people facing criminal charges indefinitely without a trial, which is a violation of the US Constitution.

I would not be shocked to be wrong on this, but I can find no trace of the Dent Act affecting trials in the movie.

Selina talks multiple times about how bad the city and the classes are. Then there’s even the kids orphanage shutting down and getting jobs in the sewers working for bane. Gotham is shown as a hell for the lower class

Selina is a thief who spends her time robbing the rich. She does not represent the voice of a regular Gotham citizen.
The poor kids looking for the work in the sewers is something. Fair play.

 

[Batmannerism]

You’re correct. Wow I thought it was unconstitutional but it’s not. The trial part Is the main thing

You’re correct. Wow I thought it was unconstitutional but it’s not. The trial part Is the main thing

Well, you are kind of right- because denial of parole can be argued to be cruel and unusual punishment, the 8th amendment to the US constitution protects against that.

Also, it looks like I'm wrong and the issue is about parole not trial.

I wouldn't say we knew exactly what it did. Skimming the script...

I would not be shocked to be wrong on this, but I can find no trace of the Dent Act affecting trials in the movie.

.

You're right, I just checked the film Blake says "denied parole" .

Sadly, given what we've already discussed about denial of parole, this doesn't mean the Dent Act is unconstitutional - and makes the movie dumber rather than smarter.

Something else which is a bit ridiculous are Bane and Blake's comments about the Dent Act and /or denial of parole being based on a lie.

I mean the lie of Harvey being blameless of any crimes was a lie indeed... but that doesn't then invalidate the Dent Act, which would have had to have been passed by a proper legal process.
Harvey's crimes have nothing to do with the lawmaking process, which happened after he died.

 

[Dede]

Well, you are kind of right- because denial of parole can be argued to be cruel and unusual punishment, the 8th amendment to the US constitution protects against that.

Also, it looks like I'm wrong and the issue is about parole not trial.



You're right, I just checked the film Blake says "denied parole" .

Sadly, given what we've already discussed about denial of parole, this doesn't mean the Dent Act is unconstitutional - and makes the movie dumber rather than smarter.

Something else which is a bit ridiculous are Bane and Blake's comments about the Dent Act and /or denial of parole being based on a lie.

I mean the lie of Harvey being blameless of any crimes was a lie indeed... but that doesn't then invalidate the Dent Act, which would have had to have been passed by a proper legal process.
Harvey's crimes have nothing to do with the lawmaking process, which happened after he died.

We’re both kinda right. There was a scene filmed where scarecrow says people where denied due process but they didn’t keep it in the film. So the film acts like it’s still in even though they cut it.

 

[Fosterson]

Something else which is a bit ridiculous are Bane and Blake's comments about the Dent Act and /or denial of parole being based on a lie.

I mean the lie of Harvey being blameless of any crimes was a lie indeed... but that doesn't then invalidate the Dent Act, which would have had to have been passed by a proper legal process.
Harvey's crimes have nothing to do with the lawmaking process, which happened after he died.

To be fair though, could you not put at least some of the blame for that on The Dark Knight? After all, the entire reason Batman had to take the fall for Harvey's crimes at the end of that movie was because if it became known that Harvey had gone on a killing spree, it would destroy his reputation and thus invalidate the prosecutions he led against Gotham's mobsters. Which, to be honest, I've always thought was a little contrived. Like, the guilt of Maroni and the rest was overwhelmingly obvious and the fact that the guy who prosecuted them LATER went crazy shouldn't suddenly exonerate them.

 

[henzINNIT]

The ending of TDK is definitely a factor. It is quite contrived I think. Batman taking the fall for Dent has always seemed like a contrived solution, when surely Dent's crimes could have easily been pinned on the Joker. There's an active terrorist committing planned attacks all over the city, people would assume it was something else he was up to. You have to lie (and force various people to lie) in order to preserve the image of Dent as a hero, but why pin it on Batman and not some unidentifiable henchman? The ending still plays but I don't think it hangs together as well under scrutiny.

The issues roll on to TDKR. With no Joker I think Nolan retreated to the other stories he'd dabbled with. I think the Dent Act and 8 years of peace were supposed to be the 'reward' for Batman's sacrifice, because Nolan wanted to make sure TDK mattered and caused positive change. The problem became how to do another film and justify the need for Batman's return. I don't think he did a great job establishing what was working in Gotham and where the rot was forming.

It was not to be, but I think the best way to follow up on Dent and the lie was to bring him back for part 3. He didn't die, and Gordon had him stashed somewhere deep to preserve the story. That way you can have a fully formed Two-Face emerge as the crazy, walking embodiment of Gotham's dirty secrets. Dent's lost reputation would have more impact if he was still around. There's not as much drama in hearing that Dent went crazy for about 8 hours shortly before dying 8 years ago. Gordon's speech about reaching into the muck would feel more justified. Dent could have led the kangaroo court as well. Oh well.

 

[Herofan]

Both were pretty broad, if not yes goofy, and underwhelming, IM3, IIRC, just that don't attack what didn't actually attack you and TDKR just that populists can be bad though it also has if you think about it more nuanced approaches to nuclear energy and to Selina being conflicted and wanting to reform. TDKR was overall more engaging and, though Bane himself unimpressive, more sincere.

 

[Herofan]

The Talia twist on the other hand is only a surprise in the sense that the twist comes super late, is pretty poorly set up, adds nothing, convolutes everything, and nerfs Bane completely.

Both twists were late, the Talia twist maybe a bit later, the Talia twist was in retrospect predictable and yet also still not making much sense *ouch*.

 

[Fosterson]

The ending of TDK is definitely a factor. It is quite contrived I think. Batman taking the fall for Dent has always seemed like a contrived solution, when surely Dent's crimes could have easily been pinned on the Joker.

Turns out Honest Trailers were actually right on that score:



(2:00)

"Why couldn't they just blame the Joker for all these deaths? He's been killing people the entire movie!"

 

[Dweet]

The Dark Knight Rises is a good movie and a good conclusion for the trilogy. Iron Man 3 was too silly and I hated how they did the villains. I think the comedy got too much. One of the movies where Marvel went too far with it.

 

[Awest66]

. The Talia twist on the other hand is only a surprise in the sense that the twist comes super late, is pretty poorly set up, adds nothing, convolutes everything, and nerfs Bane completely.

The only part of this I kind of agree with is that it comes in too late but otherwise, No just No especially to it "nerfing Bane", It was set up very clearly earlier in the movie that Bane was not the child who escaped the pit.

The revelation that he's not really the child of Ras Al Ghul doesn't actually negate any of the things he did throughout TDKR as opposed to the Mandarin twist revealing that the intimidating villain we were following doesn't actually exist and that he's just a cover for yet another generic evil businessman.

It's a really lame move that seems well below Nolan. I can't remember where I saw it, but I watched a reviewer convinced that TDKR has the issues it does because at that point, Nolan's heart just wasn't in it. I have to say I feel the same way on that.

I guess it really speaks to his directorial talent that a movie he apparently "didn't have his heart in" is superior to the vast majority of the MCU and most superhero movies in general.

 

[Awest66]

I don't know about "political allegory" but TDKR is absolutely without question the superior movie overall. Better villain. Better film making and Better journey for it's main hero.

And while were on this topic, Boy does Rises get a lot of unwarranted flack.

 

[Awest66]

The ending of TDK is definitely a factor. It is quite contrived I think. Batman taking the fall for Dent has always seemed like a contrived solution, when surely Dent's crimes could have easily been pinned on the Joker. There's an active terrorist committing planned attacks all over the city, people would assume it was something else he was up to. You have to lie (and force various people to lie) in order to preserve the image of Dent as a hero, but why pin it on Batman and not some unidentifiable henchman? The ending still plays but I don't think it hangs together as well under scrutiny.

The issues roll on to TDKR. With no Joker I think Nolan retreated to the other stories he'd dabbled with. I think the Dent Act and 8 years of peace were supposed to be the 'reward' for Batman's sacrifice, because Nolan wanted to make sure TDK mattered and caused positive change. The problem became how to do another film and justify the need for Batman's return. I don't think he did a great job establishing what was working in Gotham and where the rot was forming.

It was not to be, but I think the best way to follow up on Dent and the lie was to bring him back for part 3. He didn't die, and Gordon had him stashed somewhere deep to preserve the story. That way you can have a fully formed Two-Face emerge as the crazy, walking embodiment of Gotham's dirty secrets. Dent's lost reputation would have more impact if he was still around. There's not as much drama in hearing that Dent went crazy for about 8 hours shortly before dying 8 years ago. Gordon's speech about reaching into the muck would feel more justified. Dent could have led the kangaroo court as well. Oh well.

The problem with brining back Two-Face is that if he never died, The whole premise of preserving his reputation falls apart. Not only is it morally questionable to hold a man in a mysterious location indefinitely without due process it also makes the whole point of lying to preserve his image impossible to sustain in the long term. Is Batman and Gordon's intention to keep Harvey in that place till he dies of old age? It just raises too many questions.

If Harvey hadn't died at the end of the Dark Knight, I think both Bruce and Gordon would be obligated to bring him to justice for what he's done whatever the consequences that might arise from that.

 

[henzINNIT]

The only part of this I kind of agree with is that it comes in too late but otherwise, No just No especially to it "nerfing Bane", It was set up very clearly earlier in the movie that Bane was not the child who escaped the pit.

The revelation that he's not really the child of Ras Al Ghul doesn't actually negate any of the things he did throughout TDKR as opposed to the Mandarin twist revealing that the intimidating villain we were following doesn't actually exist and that he's just a cover for yet another generic evil businessman.

It doesn't matter that Bane indicated he wasn't the child early on. In fact it hurts the film because upon re-watching you pick up on it and have to sit through a film where the world's greatest detective doesn't. It's a mislead that works really well at building up Bane, only for the twist to strip him of all of the myth and place it on Miranda Tate, a character no-one on earth gave a toss about.

At least with Iron Man 3's twist, the real villain does more than shag the hero and die one of the most embarrassing death's in recent memory.

I guess it really speaks to his directorial talent that a movie he apparently "didn't have his heart in" is superior to the vast majority of the MCU and most superhero movies in general.

To me it speaks more to the power of exceptional production value and how well it can disguise a weak script.

The problem with brining back Two-Face is that if he never died, The whole premise of preserving his reputation falls apart. Not only is it morally questionable to hold a man in a mysterious location indefinitely without due process it also makes the whole point of lying to preserve his image impossible to sustain in the long term. Is Batman and Gordon's intention to keep Harvey in that place till he dies of old age? It just raises too many questions.

If Harvey hadn't died at the end of the Dark Knight, I think both Bruce and Gordon would be obligated to bring him to justice for what he's done whatever the consequences that might arise from that.

All kinds of ways around these issues. Perhaps Dent wasn't imprisoned, but was in a coma/catatonic state and discretely cared for. Perhaps Dent is initially reasonable and sane, and convinces Gordon to maintain the lie that he had died for the sake of his legal achievements. Perhaps both Gordon and Batman believe that Dent is dead and later find out the villains had infiltrated the first responders who declared him dead and smuggled him away.

 

[Awest66]

It doesn't matter that Bane indicated he wasn't the child early on. In fact it hurts the film because upon re-watching you pick up on it and have to sit through a film where the world's greatest detective doesn't. It's a mislead that works really well at building up Bane, only for the twist to strip him of all of the myth and place it on Miranda Tate, a character no-one on earth gave a toss about.

At least with Iron Man 3's twist, the real villain does more than shag the hero and die one of the most embarrassing death's in recent memory.

I guess you really don't care for Mask of the Phantasm either. I'm sorry but I really don't see how the twist "strips Bane of all myth" considering pretty much all Talia does when she reveals herself is talk about him, how important he is to her and how she owes basically everything to him. Bane is still absolutely the main villain of TDKR (the militaristic tone of the movie is a direct result of his character, His men fear and revere him, not Talia) and the revelation that he's not really the son of Ras Al Ghul in no way takes away from that.

Bane is not the "fake Mandarin", all the things he did throughout the movie were not invalidated by the reveal that he's working with someone else unlike Trevor who was revealed as not even being a villain period.

To me it speaks more to the power of exceptional production value and how well it can disguise a weak script.

It didn't keep you from liking Spider-Man 3 clearly and it's much weaker than Rises is by a country mile. TDKR was a story about a man with a death wish learning to appreciate life again and that part was executed flawlessly to me so I've never really bought into the complaints about how allegedly "terrible" the script is.

All kinds of ways around these issues

These explanations are pretty questionable to me. If Harvey was in a coma, He's still technically alive and could potentially come out of it and there's no way you could convince me that neither Batman nor Gordon would check him for signs of life. Bottom line, If Harvey is alive, there's no way either Bruce or Gordon could feasibly think that they could lie to protect his image and keep it up for very long.

 

[Herofan]

I guess you really don't care for Mask of the Phantasm either. I'm sorry but I really don't see how the twist "strips Bane of all myth" considering pretty much all Talia does when she reveals herself is talk about him, how important he is to her and how she owes basically everything to him. Bane is still absolutely the main villain of TDKR (the militaristic tone of the movie is a direct result of his character, His men fear and revere him, not Talia) and the revelation that he's not really the son of Ras Al Ghul in no way takes away from that.

Bane is not the "fake Mandarin", all the things he did throughout the movie were not invalidated by the reveal that he's working with someone else

The twist doesn't demolish Bane but it does diminish him, more specifically that he wasn't the child who was able to escape from the Pit he was born into takes away from him.

TDKR was a story about a man with a death wish learning to appreciate life again and that part was executed flawlessly to me so I've never really bought into the complaints about how allegedly "terrible" the script is.

He had a death wish but nothing was dangerous/threatening enough to prompt him to come back and fight for 8 years ... and him having a death wish depends on that wanting to get with Rachel was all that he wanted to live for, both unbelievable.

 

[Awest66]

The twist doesn't demolish Bane but it does diminish him, more specifically that he wasn't the child who was able to escape from the Pit he was born into takes away from him

I disagree, I think it adds to Bruce's triumph over Bane in that he escaped the pit while Bane could not.

He had a death wish but nothing was dangerous/threatening enough to prompt him to come back and fight for 8 years ... and him having a death wish depends on that wanting to get with Rachel was all that he wanted to live for, both unbelievable.

Preserving Harvey's reputation needed to have a point. It couldn't just be "Gotham is the exact same crime ridden hellhole but with the police putting more effort into chasing Batman than the actual criminals". His death wish is never said to have anything to do with Rachel, He feels as though he has nothing left to live for because he can't be either Bruce Wayne or Batman.