Dark Knight Rises vs Iron Man 3: Which Movie Inspired the Worse Fan Backlash?

[2002SpideyFan]

You would think more of these decades-long fans of the character would know more about the character, and not make mistaken statements like "he's a cold, collected manipulator" or "he's first and foremost about the rings".

1. Don't really get your point. Elaborate on that.

2. Mandarin is a "cold", pessimistic, manipulative ringleader who uses different schemes and methods to achieve his goals.

3. His rings are his main trademark, so it's logical to assume that people would associate the character with that aspect mostly. It's the same as Wolverine's claws.

So yeah, there is no mistaken statements.

 

[2002SpideyFan]

Which I most certainly have. Those Mandarin fans kept real quiet until three years ago.

1. I doubt that you have, otherwise you would not be asking such a stupid question.

2. Because they were talking about him mostly on comic book forums and not on YouTube and somewhere else? After Mandarin was ruined by a Shameless Hack, they had a reason to finally talk about the character. Same goes for Superman. After Man of Steel "ruined" the character of Superman for many because it tried to move away from Superman's boyscout persona, people began to appreciate classic Superman more.

Here, these are the letters that were sent to Marvel's editorial office few decades ago. You can see that Mandarin fans were always around.

 

[StormC]

1. I doubt that you have, otherwise you would not be asking such a stupid questions.

Maybe take it down a notch mate.

 

[Flint Marko]

1. I doubt that you have, otherwise you would not be asking such a stupid questions.

Stupid question.*

2. Because they were talking about him mostly on comic book forums and not on YouTube and somewhere else? After Mandarin was ruined by a Shameless Hack, they had a reason to finally talk about the character. Same goes for Superman. After Man of Steel "ruined" the character of Superman for many because it tried to move away from Superman's boyscout persona, people began to appreciate classic Superman more.

Here, these are the letters that were sent to Marvel's editorial office few decades ago. You can see that Mandarin fans were always around.

Your comparison to Superman kind of says it all: people were always talking about him both before and after MoS' release, because he's a big character with millions of fans around the world. The Mandarin? Not so much.

And just to clarify, I never said that the Mandarin didn't have any fans, just that they apparently all climbed out of the woodwork in 2013 to complain about the twist.

Also I've consistently heard many people in the film industry, both creatives and critics, cite Iron Man 3 as one of the most impressive MCU films because of how bold and unique it is. If it doesn't work for you, fine, but it's critically lauded and made gang busters at the box office and I personally feel it's one of the best CBM's of all time - and that's coming from someone who has read numerous comics featuring the Mandarin and was looking forward to seeing Ben Kingsley's interpretation.

 

[2002SpideyFan]

Your comparison to Superman kind of says it all: people were always talking about him both before and after MoS' release, because he's a big character with millions of fans around the world. The Mandarin? Not so much.

Comparing Mandarin to Superman is like comparing Bernardo Bertolucci to Francis Ford Coppola. Just because one isn't as famous as the second one it doesn't mean that his movies have lesser quality. Not to mention, it's pretty ******ed to expect from Mandarin to have same level of popularity as Superman, considering that Superman predates Mandarin for almost 30 years, and unlike Mandarin, Superman is a cultural icon that has been featured in every form of medium, from highly successful movies to TV-shows. Mandarin has never been successfully portrayed anywhere outside the comics. So it's stupid to assume that he would match with the popularity of Superman. Even so, I bet that 90% of all the people who know who Superman is can't even tell in which comics Lex Luthor first appeared.

And just to clarify, I never said that the Mandarin didn't have any fans, just that they apparently all climbed out of the woodwork in 2013 to complain about the twist.

First of all, saying that those fans "climbed out of the woodwork" is clearly insulting. Second of all, those fans saw how their favorite character was ruined in a big summer movie that millions people saw. It's logical to assume that it would piss them off and would made them talk about that. And I've already showed you with those fan letters that those fans were always around.

Also I've consistently heard many people in the film industry, both creatives and critics, cite Iron Man 3 as one of the most impressive MCU films because of how bold and unique it is.

I don't know about whom you're talking about, really. Are those the same people who thought that Thor The Dark World was a good movie? Also, I don't know anyone respected who would put Iron Man 3 as the most impressive MCU film. I know those few no-name reviewers, like Confused Matthew and FilmMasterAdam, who made the big deal out of the movie. But they have mediocre taste anyway, so I don't care for their opinion.


The spot for most impressive MCU film goes for either first Iron Man or Winter Soldier.

Nevertheless, I don't know about those critics, but I know about Bob Layton (I hope, you know who that is, since that man did a lot for Iron Man), and he did not like Iron Man 3, at all, and its awful predecessor as well.

"Telling comic-based stories are like composing an opera. Operas have lavish costumes, are performed on a stage and are written in Italian. When you bring in someone in Hollywood who doesn’t fully understand the comic book genre (Like writer/director Shane Black, for instance), you get the opera written in English, staged in a deserted alleyway and performed in street clothes. Comic fans are like traditional opera lovers. They want their operas pure. That’s what Iron Man 3 felt like to me, a bad opera. It seemed like an ill-conceived, G-rated version of “Kiss Kiss Bang Bang”. For the record, I’m not stating that it’s the most horrible thing I’ve witnessed in recent cinema (that honor still goes to the insanely-stupid ” Prometheus&#8221. But it fails on so many levels and that make me very sad. In Shane Black’s eyes, Stark is a bumbling, inept engineer who can’t get any of his inventions to work anymore? Are you kidding?! Didn’t he watch the first film? TONY STARK MADE THE FIRST ARMOR IN A CAVE WITH A ROCK, A BALL-PEEN HAMMER AND A FRIGGIN’ TIN CAN!!! Then- he proceeded to kick everyone’s ass! Give me a break!"

This man was writing and drawing Iron Man for good amount of his life, so I think his opinion is way more authoritative than yours or mine.

If it doesn't work for you, fine, but it's critically lauded and made gang busters at the box office and I personally feel it's one of the best CBM's of all time - and that's coming from someone who has read numerous comics featuring the Mandarin and was looking forward to seeing Ben Kingsley's interpretation.

First of all, it got mostly positive reviews but it didn't have the critical acclaim that The Avengers or Winter Soldier had. On Metacritic it has average 62%, which means that it is not bad but not great either. On RT it has 62% from top critics as well. So stop saying as if this movie was loved by everyone, since it's not true. Second of all, this movie is divisive, regardless of the overall reception that it got. The Dark Knight Rises has 87% on Rotten Tomatoes and 8.5 on IMDB, which is far superior rating than Iron Man 3 has, nevertheless, The Dark Knight Rises is a divisive movie with problems, and a lot of people hate it. Just because it has good reception doesn't mean it doesn't have problems. Iron Man 3 is a problematic movie with tons of tonal, storytelling, character development problems. It is a very superficial film with trivial story and flat characters. Also, "and that's coming from someone who has read numerous comics featuring the Mandarin" isn't really saying much, since, for example, I've been a fan of Spider-Man since I remember myself, and I'm one of those people who did not hated Spider-Man 3 and didn't care for Venom in it. But I don't pretend as if the movie is good and the Venom in it was great. I know it's not good, and I don't defend it. I don't tell you to not like the film and you don't tell me why I should like it.

 

[2002SpideyFan]

Am I the only person who noticed that no one gave a crap about the Mandarin until they ruined him? He's not a great comic book character. He's Iron Man's de facto arch-enemy vs. a character like Green Goblin, Doctor Doom, or Magneto, who have a deep seated animosity based on interpersonal experience with a hero.

1. It is you, because I know that fans of the Mandarin were always around. They just weren't very vocal about their passion for the character. How I know that? Because I'm one of them.

2. He's not a great comic book character only for those who have not read a single comic book with him and who watched Iron Man 3 and then find out about Mandarin afterwards. For real fans he's a great, compelling, unorthodox character.

3. I don't want to repeat myself, but you should read at least few comic books before making statement like that.

Mandarin and Iron Man were supposed to be an emblematic reflections of our society and political environment of the 60's. Iron Man was a rich democrat who used his resources and knowledge to help people and to make world a better place. He worked very close with the government and was a part of the industrial complex. Mandarin was an insurrectionist that believed in individual supremacy and rational individuality, who used all his resources and knowledge only to annihilate all the political/social/economical layers in order to subjugate authority and power from everyone who has it, thus making himself the only prevailing authority that there is. He was oppressed by the corrupt government, which took away his patrimony and dignity, so he antagonized the government as his prior target, and he tries to destroy political environmentalism and oppress the authorities. It's sort of like with the Joker and Batman. Order and logic versus chaos and irrationality. Though, Iron Man and Mandarin both are rationalists and idealists with their own spin on those ideals and rational views.

But if you need less convoluted/metaphorical explanation, I think John Byrne gave the definitive answer as to why the Mandarin is Iron Man's arch-enemy. He wrote a two-part story in which he re-contextualized the origin of both Iron Man and the Mandarin, thus making the Mandarin the one who organized captivity of Tony Stark and Yinsen in south Asian, thus he figuratively created his own enemy.

Villain created the hero. You can't get more deep relationships between a hero and a villain than that.

Also, your name... A fan of the Kang the Conquerer criticizes villains like the Mandarin for not being great?.. Really? At least you can empathize with Mandarin and understand his goals.

 

[Flint Marko]

I don't tell you to not like the film and you don't tell me why I should like it.

I've seen your other posts on this forum and I don't care to get involved in this discussion with you, but at no point have I told you why you should like it. I merely pointed out that it was successful across the board.

 

[The Joker]

I don't care about Mandarin of the comics, or any of the IM comic villains. My problem with the Mandarin twist was we were shown a promising villain in Kingsley in those terrorist videos. He was like an Osama Bin Laden type of fanatical terrorist, with all these followers worshiping him, burning an effigy of the president, comparing America to fortune cookies - hollow, full of lies etc. There was a real menace and creepy vibe to him in those vids. Remember the one where he killed the Roxxon employee? That was my favorite one.

So it was real disappointing when they went the route they did with the Trevor thing. Kingsley was hilarious as Trevor, but it was a waste of a great actor's talents, and a potentially great villain. I was more riveted by Mandarin in the threat videos, than when we saw the real Mandarin revealed.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

I don't care about Mandarin of the comics, or any of the IM comic villains. My problem with the Mandarin twist was we were shown a promising villain in Kingsley in those terrorist videos. He was like an Osama Bin Laden type of fanatical terrorist, with all these followers worshiping him, burning an effigy of the president, comparing America to fortune cookies - hollow, full of lies etc. There was a real menace and creepy vibe to him in those vids. Remember the one where he killed the Roxxon employee? That was my favorite one.

So it was real disappointing when they went the route they did with the Trevor thing. Kingsley was hilarious as Trevor, but it was a waste of a great actor's talents, and a potentially great villain. I was more riveted by Mandarin in the threat videos, than when we saw the real Mandarin revealed.

That's a lot better reasoning for disliking the twist than we usually get, so I thank you for posting that.

 

[Flint Marko]

I don't care about Mandarin of the comics, or any of the IM comic villains. My problem with the Mandarin twist was we were shown a promising villain in Kingsley in those terrorist videos. He was like an Osama Bin Laden type of fanatical terrorist, with all these followers worshiping him, burning an effigy of the president, comparing America to fortune cookies - hollow, full of lies etc. There was a real menace and creepy vibe to him in those vids. Remember the one where he killed the Roxxon employee? That was my favorite one.

So it was real disappointing when they went the route they did with the Trevor thing. Kingsley was hilarious as Trevor, but it was a waste of a great actor's talents, and a potentially great villain. I was more riveted by Mandarin in the threat videos, than when we saw the real Mandarin revealed.

That's a lot better reasoning for disliking the twist than we usually get, so I thank you for posting that.

Agreed, Kahran.

 

[A Necessary Evil]

I still love the Mandarin twist, and IM3 as a whole. It's hilarious, ballsy, and did something nobody expected. Don't care for TDKR's stupid twist, haven't since day one.

 

[The Batman]

I don't care about Mandarin of the comics, or any of the IM comic villains. My problem with the Mandarin twist was we were shown a promising villain in Kingsley in those terrorist videos. He was like an Osama Bin Laden type of fanatical terrorist, with all these followers worshiping him, burning an effigy of the president, comparing America to fortune cookies - hollow, full of lies etc. There was a real menace and creepy vibe to him in those vids. Remember the one where he killed the Roxxon employee? That was my favorite one.

So it was real disappointing when they went the route they did with the Trevor thing. Kingsley was hilarious as Trevor, but it was a waste of a great actor's talents, and a potentially great villain. I was more riveted by Mandarin in the threat videos, than when we saw the real Mandarin revealed.

This, above all else, is why I ultimately disliked the twist. The Mandarin we were promised was much, much better than the Mandarin we got, which was yet another business man.

Imagine watching a Batman Begins where Decoy Ra's was a more compelling character than Liam Neeson's.

 

[Mjölnir]

This, above all else, is why I ultimately disliked the twist. The Mandarin we were promised was much, much better than the Mandarin we got, which was yet another business man.

Imagine watching a Batman Begins where Decoy Ra's was a more compelling character than Liam Neeson's.

I don't quite feel like it's the best analogy though since the two Ra's were the same thing. There wasn't a difference in ideal or deep concept, it was a superficial thing.

With the Mandarins they were totally different, and while I too think that the fake version was really intriguing in the videos, the message that is in the movie by having that be the fake one is probably more interesting than to have Iron Man just fight that view of a terrorist. I certainly see why people are disappointed, and I can share that to some extent, but I also enjoy the mix of a message about stereotypical fear and showing it in a double way by both playing the public in the movie and the audience directly.

 

[A Necessary Evil]

I agree, Mjolnir

 

[DACrowe]

I don't care about Mandarin of the comics, or any of the IM comic villains. My problem with the Mandarin twist was we were shown a promising villain in Kingsley in those terrorist videos. He was like an Osama Bin Laden type of fanatical terrorist, with all these followers worshiping him, burning an effigy of the president, comparing America to fortune cookies - hollow, full of lies etc. There was a real menace and creepy vibe to him in those vids. Remember the one where he killed the Roxxon employee? That was my favorite one.

So it was real disappointing when they went the route they did with the Trevor thing. Kingsley was hilarious as Trevor, but it was a waste of a great actor's talents, and a potentially great villain. I was more riveted by Mandarin in the threat videos, than when we saw the real Mandarin revealed.

Pretty much. Well said. He was the closest thing they had to something becoming scary in these movies, and then they turned it into a joke. It was a good joke, but a waste of potential.

 

[2002SpideyFan]

I don't quite feel like it's the best analogy though since the two Ra's were the same thing. There wasn't a difference in ideal or deep concept, it was a superficial thing.

With the Mandarins they were totally different, and while I too think that the fake version was really intriguing in the videos, the message that is in the movie by having that be the fake one is probably more interesting than to have Iron Man just fight that view of a terrorist. I certainly see why people are disappointed, and I can share that to some extent, but I also enjoy the mix of a message about stereotypical fear and showing it in a double way by both playing the public in the movie and the audience directly.

The twist with Liam Neeson's Ra's Al Ghul works because his character has a personal bond with Bruce Wayne. He taught him many things, and they both were inspired to fight crime by the loss of their loved one. But the reason why the twist works with Liam Neeson, is because Liam Neeson shows what Bruce would ultimately become if he would allow his sense of justice and order to overshadow his sense of morality and compassion. It escalates everything that movie was indicating from the beginning of the film. You saw a glimpses of Liam Neeson's methodology to fight crime being way more radical and lethal than Bruce's.

It's an emotionally complex arc that has profound thematic integrity to it.

Not to mention, Liam Neeson was actually a comic book accurate representation of the Ra's Al Ghul, minus immortality, but even that aspect was mentioned briefly in the movie. So it clearly says that Nolan, unlike Shane Black, doesn't wipe his butt with comic books.

1. Ra's Al Ghul. 2. Sensei - father of Ra's.

The problem with Mandarin twist, apart from being a completely disgraceful towards the comics, is that it feels very random and not thought-out. Movie wasn't indicating that its about the reprobation of the perception of evil in this world. The twist appears randomly, it has no complex idea behind it, and it never escalates the story into something emotionally satisfying. After the twist happens, the movie turns into a generic story about a revenge. Evil businessman guy wants to kill Tony Stark because he has some trivial gripe against Tony Stark... Never saw that before.

If this movie was actually more about drama and substance instead of superficial storytelling and dull jokes, the twist wouldn't be played out as a ******ed comedic gag. The scene would be more serious. The Trevor wouldn't be a walking-talking fartbag. He would be forced to do all those things because bad guys kidnapped his family and they forced him to act so that his family will be alive. That's already gives a much better explanation as to why someone would agree on doing something like that.

And the last act of the movie wouldn't be a random fight scene in a docks. If movie was thematically complex, the last act would play out within the theme about world and politics being ambivalent and not one-sided. Because the bad guy used a spurious frontage of a terrorist to insert fear into people and into government, which he would do through horrible terracts (with real people and not stupid concept about human bombs), the government would decide to start War on Terror, and Tony Stark had to prevent that from happening. The bad guy wouldn’t even need any fire-breathing superpowers to do that. He didn't even need to have any superpowers. He would just use manipulative schemes to do that. The bad guy would manipulate U.S. troops to attack a civilians somewhere in middle-east, and Tony Stark would suit up, go there, and start fighting with the U.S. army. Rhodey would be a leader of the operation. He wouldn’t be aware of the true context behind the situation, thus it would create the conflict between them both. Iron Man and War Machine have to fight for their ideals. U.S. would proclaim Iron Man to be an enemy of the united states. Tony Stark had to fight on his own against everyone.

You could’ve done so much more with that. In a first film we saw Tony Stark fighting for the U.S., but now the paradigm has changed. It would thematically fit everything about the first movie (the only good IM movie), since now ру has to not just reconfigure his morals, but to reconfigure his perception of right and wrong. But f8ck that, right? Fire-breathing people, explosions, fart jokes, and docks are more interesting?

All in all, Iron Man 3 was a terrible, superbly superficial film for me. People mistakenly think that the only problem with the movie is the fact that it ruined the Mandarin. It is, of course, a terrible idea to make Mandarin a walking fartbag, but the movie sucks not just because of that. It has tons of other problems. I would bring Gravity as an example. Gravity is a great movie, but it's scientifically inaccurate. But people like the movie because it's emotionally satisfying. Iron Man 3 isn't comic book accurate, but it's also emotionally unsatisfying, clunky, poorly written, and joyless. If the movie was actually profound, deep, and well-written, people wouldn't hate it so much.

 

[Batmannerism]

Okay, so TDKR was an ambitious film that's reach exceeded its grasp.

Bane could have been a great villain, but the masked mumbling ruined it for me.
The pacing of the film was poor, and a lot of stuff incredibly implausible (unlike TDK which made even the implausible stuff look plausible). It got good reviews and made a ton of cash, but it didn't live up to the promise of TDK.

However, it did complete the trilogy, and had the balls to end Bruce Wayne's story - and for that it gets lots of props.

All in all not a bad film, just not a great one.

Iron Man 3. While making a ton of cash too - failed to live up to even the mediocre promise of Iron Man 2.
Unlike Bane (who at least was physically menacing, bore some resemblance to the comic book version, and did actually do the thing for which Bane is most famous - break the bat) the Mandarin was a disappointment on every level. Guy Pearce is usually a great villain, but got so little to work with in this film, such a waste.

And of course the whole subversion of expectations with Kingsley just being an actor - that was a gamble, but one that just didn't pay off. I guess I'm still one of those who feels that the Mandarin's Chinese cultural heritage is an essential part of the character and should have been retained for the film - there are so many good Chinese actors who could have really owned the role.
(Jet Li or Tony Leung could have nailed it, both are great as antiheroes or villains - KenWatanabe, who's Japanese, could certainly have done it justice).

I guess the bit that really, really put me off IM3 was the bit in which Tony Stark invites a global terrorist network to attack him at home on international TV, gives out his home address and then looks surprised when he nearly gets killed by a bunch of ****ing HELICOPTERS ????? WTF ???
The guy had a basement full of remote control super-suits, and he gets taken out by helicopters ?
(for me, that's as bad as Superman Returns, having Superman land on an island made partially of kryptonite, that was made with stolen kryptonian tech, by the only person in the world who knows about kryptonite, and then looks surprised when he nearly gets killed - hmm....sounds a lot like IM 3 !).


Both films have final montages, and while TDKR's is quite cathartic and a satisfying ending (because they built up to it) IM 3's final montage is a cop-out that resolves all the issues in a blur - and doesn't really provide much of an ending.

Bale's Batman is a bit pathetic and kind of dumb in TDKR, but we can't help but wince when he's crippled and his hopes shattered, and of course we cheer when he does rise from the pit.

RDJ's Tony, well other than the panic attacks is pretty much the same as in every other film ( which is why he's so good in CW, because there he actually takes Tony to a new level, having been stuck in neutral doing the same shtick for all of IM2, Avengers and Age of Ultron and IM3 - but in CW he brings something fresh). Sadly at the end of IM3 he's pretty much the same as he was at the start.

Anyway, TDKR is nowhere near the disappointment that IM 3 was, and that's why I reacted so badly to it - I suspect many other people shared that sentiment.

 

[Mjölnir]

The twist with Liam Neeson's Ra's Al Ghul works because his character has a personal bond with Bruce Wayne. He taught him many things, and they both were inspired to fight crime by the loss of their loved one. But the reason why the twist works with Liam Neeson, is because Liam Neeson shows what Bruce would ultimately become if he would allow his sense of justice and order to overshadow his sense of morality and compassion. It escalates everything that movie was indicating from the beginning of the film. You saw a glimpses of Liam Neeson's methodology to fight crime being way more radical and lethal than Bruce's.

It's an emotionally complex arc that has profound thematic integrity to it.

Not to mention, Liam Neeson was actually a comic book accurate representation of the Ra's Al Ghul, minus immortality, but even that aspect was mentioned briefly in the movie. So it clearly says that Nolan, unlike Shane Black, doesn't wipe his butt with comic books.

1. Ra's Al Ghul. 2. Sensei - father of Ra's.

The problem with Mandarin twist, apart from being a completely disgraceful towards the comics, is that it feels very random and not thought-out. Movie wasn't indicating that its about the reprobation of the perception of evil in this world. The twist appears randomly, it has no complex idea behind it, and it never escalates the story into something emotionally satisfying. After the twist happens, the movie turns into a generic story about a revenge. Evil businessman guy wants to kill Tony Stark because he has some trivial gripe against Tony Stark... Never saw that before.

If this movie was actually more about drama and substance instead of superficial storytelling and dull jokes, the twist wouldn't be played out as a ******ed comedic gag. The scene would be more serious. The Trevor wouldn't be a walking-talking fartbag. He would be forced to do all those things because bad guys kidnapped his family and they forced him to act so that his family will be alive. That's already gives a much better explanation as to why someone would agree on doing something like that.

And the last act of the movie wouldn't be a random fight scene in a docks. If movie was thematically complex, the last act would play out within the theme about world and politics being ambivalent and not one-sided. Because the bad guy used a spurious frontage of a terrorist to insert fear into people and into government, which he would do through horrible terracts (with real people and not stupid concept about human bombs), the government would decide to start War on Terror, and Tony Stark had to prevent that from happening. The bad guy wouldn’t even need any fire-breathing superpowers to do that. He didn't even need to have any superpowers. He would just use manipulative schemes to do that. The bad guy would manipulate U.S. troops to attack a civilians somewhere in middle-east, and Tony Stark would suit up, go there, and start fighting with the U.S. army. Rhodey would be a leader of the operation. He wouldn’t be aware of the true context behind the situation, thus it would create the conflict between them both. Iron Man and War Machine have to fight for their ideals. U.S. would proclaim Iron Man to be an enemy of the united states. Tony Stark had to fight on his own against everyone.

You could’ve done so much more with that. In a first film we saw Tony Stark fighting for the U.S., but now the paradigm has changed. It would thematically fit everything about the first movie (the only good IM movie), since now has to not just reconfigure his morals, but to reconfigure his perception of right and wrong. But f8ck that, right? Fire-breathing people, explosions, fart jokes, and docks are more interesting?

All in all, Iron Man 3 was a terrible, superbly superficial film for me. People mistakenly think that the only problem with the movie is the fact that it ruined the Mandarin. It is, of course, a terrible idea to make Mandarin a walking fartbag, but the movie sucks not just because of that. It has tons of other problems. I would bring Gravity as an example. Gravity is a great movie, but it's scientifically inaccurate. But people like the movie because it's emotionally satisfying. Iron Man 3 isn't comic book accurate, but it's also emotionally unsatisfying, clunky, poorly written, and joyless. If the movie was actually profound, deep, and well-written, people wouldn't hate it so much.

You don't need to sell me on Batman Begins, I think it's clearly the best Batman movie ever made. I don't buy that the twist is more complex than IM3 though, I'd actually say the contrary since instead of just being a version of the message you've gotten IM3 twists the message and makes you realize something new.

And you're wrong about making the Mandarin a walking fartbag. Trevor wasn't the Mandarin, Killian was. And as has been stated on this board in long, eloquent posts (far more than I will even bother to attempt here) Killian actually hits almost all deep aspects of the Mandarin character, while the fake Mandarin image hit almost none, it just had some superficial similarities.

But we like what we like so I'm not bothering discussing what's better or worse, I'll leave it to the things more closely related to facts.

 

[A Necessary Evil]

At the end of the day, we can all agree that Bane = Killian >> Talia >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mandarin in any form, ever

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Bane is one of my favorite CBM villains. I thought he was great, which was a nice surprise (sorta, I always had faith in Nolan) given that I don't really care for any previous version. Even the BTAS version sucked.

 

[The Batman]

At the end of the day, we can all agree that Bane = Killian

I don't agree with this at all.

Killian is utterly forgettable. Bane, whether you like him or not, is far from that.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

I don't agree with this at all.

Killian is utterly forgettable. Bane, whether you like him or not, is far from that.

Bane is way better than Killian.

 

[The Joker]

I don't agree with this at all.

Killian is utterly forgettable. Bane, whether you like him or not, is far from that.

Oh I guarantee you, Batsy, that A Necessary Evil loves Bane. And I'm not talking about the obvious hint with his user name We're good buddies outside of the Hype.

Bane is way better than Killian.

I agree. I liked Killian, but as villain material, he didn't leave a big impression. The age old problem of Marvel villains. Serviceable but largely forgettable, with a couple of notable exceptions.

 

[Johnny-Oh]

IM3 definitely had the worst/most unfair backlash, most people don't even give the movie credit for anything, there are rarely any objective criticisms against the film and the hate is solely for the Mandarin twist.

TDKR has a lot of unwarranted hate as well but some of its criticisms are valid and the movie doesn't get completely dismissed in the way IM3 does.

 

[2002SpideyFan]

I don't agree with this at all.

Killian is utterly forgettable. Bane, whether you like him or not, is far from that.

Killian is one of the most poorly written, orthodox, corny supervillians ever put on screen. He's a walking-talking caricature with no personality. Not to mention, his character was clearly inspired by Joel Schumacher's Batman films... Now that is so bizarre that it's not even funny.

If Killian was at least a somehow an interesting character, I would give him a pass. But that guy is a bland imbecile that is as threatening as a piece of wood that lies on the ground. Really, he was defeated by a Gweneth Peltrow in yoga pants. That should be the most pathetic villain defeat ever done in a comic book movie.

I also find it funny when some funny people say that Aldrich was a "faithful representation of the Mandarin". From what I remember from reading thousands of comics, Mandarin in the comics wasn't an imbecilic looser with poop-face. Seriusly, look at this expression:

Does it look like a face of a super-evil, super-cruel, super-bad-ass villain?

But this does look like a bad-ass villain: