Homecoming Who should be the Villain in Spider-Man (2017)? - Part 2

[Webhead2006]

Lol ha ha what ever happens in the end hopefully we all like what marvel decides on.

 

[I'm Venom]

Hey what's wrong with Vulture? Geez, don't get to be too sophisticated a fan. Obviously were he to be the villain, he'd have to be morphed into something way cooler, but then again look what Raimi did to Doc Ock. I think his creepy face made him more menacing than he would've been otherwise.

 

[Webhead2006]

Personally I have no issue for vulture if he was picked and was lead villain. The right vision and story and a actor who gets into the role could make for a great character.

 

[The Overlord]

and electro...

and lizard...

my basic rule of thumb is if they are a popular character and have worked well for 60+ years.. there's a reason for it. Let them breathe.

combining Crimson Dynamo and Whiplash was weird, but he is the less known out of the bunch... the GA is more familiar with Lizard and Electro than Mandarin and Whiplash. They have more room to alter.

But Mandarin was indeed probably the biggest change. But 50% liked it.. 50% did not.

the more popular the character, the more beloved, the less wiggle room for change. (that goes for characterization, back story, gender, race, etc..)

I kinda disagree with that, too a point. Mr. Freeze was a nothing character before BTAS and was certainly made into a better character by that episode. I think revamping some of these B-list villains would be a good idea, that is why I suggested a psychopathic version of Mysterio, rather then the generic villain with a gimmick he is often written as in the comics.

Its all a balance, some villains could be suitable Big Bads, but need some tweeking, others just won't work in that role.

Personally I have no issue for vulture if he was picked and was lead villain. The right vision and story and a actor who gets into the role could make for a great character.

I think Vulture would need a lot of work to be a suitable Big Bad, because in the comics, people talk about how smart he is, but he is using the same smash and grab tactics the dumber villains use. His gimmick is completely redundant compared to someone like Green Goblin and the character in the comics is not generally compelling, they seem to go all over the place with, sometimes he is trying help his loved ones, sometimes he is trying to kill everyone in the City for kicks and sometimes he is a another generic bank robbing bad guy. If he is smart, why can't he come up with something more creative to do then petty thievery? You can't say a villain is smart and have him do the same thing the dumber villains do.

To be suitable Big Bad, you have to upgrade his abilities and make him more actively intelligent and find a way to not make him seem totally redundant compared to Gobby. Frankly you also have to include a more physical villain to be his henchman, someone like Scorpion, who wouldn't be a good Big bad, because he never seemed in Spidey's league one on one.

 

[harryoscop]

I disagree... Spidey basically has these villains, in these tiers.

TOP TIER - (Can Carry a Movie completely by themselves. They often effect both the peter and the spidey side of the coin, they are dynamic, personal, and compelling, and are just as big of threats in the comics. These are his top of the rung villains)
-Green Goblin/Norman Osborn
-Doctor Octopus
-Venom

SECONDARY TIER - (These villains have some potential to carry a film by themselves.. usually a smaller scale, like top tier, they can carry great weight on both sides of the spider-man/Peter coin.. even if not by direct connection. They, on the flip side.. can also work well with other villains be it pre-established Top Tier characters.. or Tertiary and below. They are the most versatile of the bunch)
-Kraven
-Lizard
-Hobgoblin
-Carnage
-Jackal
-Morlun

secondary B: small subcategory of secondary villains that fall between secondary and tertiary... King pin for instance needs hired hands, assassins, etc.. a film with just kingpin probably wouldn't work with spidey the way it worked with daredevil.
-Kingpin
-Scorpion
-Mysterio
-Vulture
-Morbius
-Black Cat

TERTIARY FOES - (These villains can not carry a film on their own, they work best with others, they usually are hired hands, they do not have large scale danger or destruction and work with Top and Secondary Tier characters) There powers however are pretty impressive and visually compelling for a thematic release
-Sandman
-Electro
-Hydroman
-Chameleon
-Shocker
-Rhino
-Silvermane
- Mr. Negative
-Calypso
-Beetle
-Boomerang
-Tarantula
-Silvermane
-Speed Demon
-Molten Man
-Man Wolf
-Smythe
-Tombstone
-Shriek
-Doppleganger
-Cardiac

QUATERNARY FOES - These are the morts (in terms of movie-verse). they arn't vastly popular villains or very known, they absolutely can't carry a film and at best should only be used as small cameos (if anything)
-The Spot
-Hammerhead
-Swarm
-Jack-o-Lantern
-White Rabbit
-Big Wheel
-The Fly
-Leap Frog
-The Walrus
-Grizzly
-Stergon
-Gibbon
-Typeface
-Styx and Stone
-Vermin

Surprise, surprise, I actually agree with this list.

id hate to see a vulture who flew at sonic speeds to be honest... he doesn't need to be able to do that... his speed should just be about as fast as spidey swings.. which is not SONIC at all...

Vulture needs to be upgraded and enhanced for the movie. If he is to be the villain, he has to be made into a serious threat. I don't see him working as is in a film adaption.

no hate indeed.


just literally knew you (and likely Harry) would disagree. Because you're both opposite sides of the same coin of a foreign country in which language i do not speak :-P

I think you're getting way too defensive your opinion, lol.

Oh, and I'm actually from Manhattan (aka "The Big Apple" )

 

[younglink42]

I don't why, but Vulture feels like a villain that would allow for a classic Spider-Man tale.

 

[I'm Venom]

I think Vulture should be the villain in the first film. He doesn't have superpowers and wears a suit.

 

[Webhead2006]

Vulture doesn't need super powers or be super human to be a threat. He ie the first two never been. Just guys in suits thst make him fly and other weapons and maybe some augmented strength. You don't need to change vulture massively to be a considerable threat.

Again I agree some characters may have to change race or some of there idealology to fit modern times. But if you change a character to much. I am I am sure others be like why bother with that character if you going to change them so much. What's the point. You might as well come up with a new character then.

 

[The Overlord]

Vulture doesn't need super powers or be super human to be a threat. He ie the first two never been. Just guys in suits thst make him fly and other weapons and maybe some augmented strength. You don't need to change vulture massively to be a considerable threat.

So Green Goblin can fly, is as strong as Spidey and has several different weapons to throw at Spidey, how is Vulture not going to seem totally redundant? Gobby is even a better schemer then Vulture, who despite his supposed cunning, is just as much as unambitious petty thief as some the dumb thug villains. Vulture is supposed to be a genius and petty thievery is the best thing he can come up with? How he is smarter then the other dumb thug villains Spidey fights?

Frankly if that is all Vulture is, they should make him more of master mind type character, give him a better plan then "rob banks" and pair him with a more physical villain, like Scorpion. I never bought Vulture as a decent physical threat to Spidey in the comics, give him a scheme that is compelling and different from something Gobby would do and you might have something, focus more on his mind then his gimmick.

Again I agree some characters may have to change race or some of there idealology to fit modern times. But if you change a character to much. I am I am sure others be like why bother with that character if you going to change them so much. What's the point. You might as well come up with a new character then.

Didn't Claremont change Magneto into a new character back in the 70s, didn't Bendis change Purple Man into a new character in Alias, didn't Dini change Mr. Freeze into a new character in BTAS? All those seem like improvements to me, keep the basic concepts, add vastly superior characterization.

Frankly I think some of these villains are such non entities character wise (with no real characterization or characterization that changes writer to writer) that revamping their personality would be a huge improvement. It might not work, but nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Why can't someone Shocker get some character development, because he often just seems like some idiot who got up one morning and starting robbing banks, rather then an actual real character. We shouldn't stick with bland characterizations and motives, just because that is the way the character has been since the 60s.

How many really great Vulture stories have there been in the comics? Why do you think Vulture is compelling character in the comics? These are questions that need to be addressed when one says "a want a true to the comics" version of that character. Because if you can't answer those questions, you don't have a Big Bad villain that can carry a movie and the character will need some revamping.

 

[AvegningSpider]

Why can't someone Shocker get some character development, because he often just seems like some idiot who got up one morning and starting robbing banks, rather then an actual real character. We shouldn't stick with bland characterizations and motives, just because that is the way the character has been since the 60s.

And that's why if Marvel goes with Shocker as a villain, they should make him Montana from the Enforcers, instead of just your regular Herman Schultz, and actually develop Shocker as a competent villain(and plus, you can have the Enforcers).

 

[The Overlord]

And that's why if Marvel goes with Shocker as a villain, they should make him Montana from the Enforcers, instead of just your regular Herman Schultz, and actually develop Shocker as a competent villain(and plus, you can have the Enforcers).

I don't think Shocker has to be Montana to be compelling, just make Herman Schultz a more compelling. But frankly its a testament to how much of a nothing character Schultz is, that the makers of Spectacular Spider-Man thought they could easily replace him with Montana. I was more complaining about how much of nothing character Shocker is the comics and saying that it is inevitable he would need to changed for the big screen.

Frankly in the movies, Shocker is perfect henchman material and I would write him one of two ways, a ruthless cold hearted career criminal, who has nothing personal against Spidey or anyone else, but not hesitate to kill anyone who gets in the way of his job or a more noble criminal, who works for other criminals and breaks the law, but has defined rules on what he will and will not do and turns against an employer who does something he objects to morally.

 

[AvegningSpider]

I don't think Shocker has to be Montana to be compelling, just makes Herman Schultz a more compelling. But frankly its a testament to how much of a nothing character Schultz is, that the makers of Spectacular Spider-Man thought they could easily replace him with Montana. I was more complaining about how much of nothing character Shocker is the comics and saying that it is inevitable he would need to changed for the big screen.

Frankly in the movies, Shocker is perfect henchman material and I would write him one of two ways, a ruthless cold hearted career criminal, who has nothing personal against Spidey or anyone else, but not hesitate to kill anyone who gets in the way of his job or a more noble criminal, who works for other criminals and breaks the law, but has defined rules on what he will and will not do and turns against an employer who does something he objects to morally.

The noble criminal sounds a lot like Flash's Rogues (and that's a good thing)
And also, the most important thing i would say Shocker has done is being the 2nd most known villain of the Superior Foes of Spider-Man.

 

[The Overlord]

The noble criminal sounds a lot like Flash's Rogues (and that's a good thing)
And also, the most important thing i would say Shocker has done is being the 2nd most known villain of the Superior Foes of Spider-Man.

I think Shocker being written as a coward is what really hamstrung him as a villain, if he is a coward, why he is a public criminal and if he comes off as being afraid of his own shadow, how he is a legitimate threat to anyone? Shocker is already a villain at a disadvantage in terms of being a legit threat to Spidey, turning him into the Cowardly Lion really makes him seem like he is not in Spidey's league. If Shocker is too much coward to enjoy being a bank robber, why doesn't he come up with more subtle ways to make cash? There are so many easier, illegal ways to make money then bank robbery, if you are smart and people say Shocker is supposed to be a smart villain, but he is not written that way very often in the comics.

 

[ernesth100]

Regardless of the villain. I must see Spider-Man take on some reguar thugs or somethin atleast once.

 

[AvegningSpider]

And again, Shocker just like Spot, Molten Man and Hydroman, has cool abilitties, has potential for character development and stories yet they don't do anything with him.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Surprise, surprise, I actually agree with this list.


Vulture needs to be upgraded and enhanced for the movie. If he is to be the villain, he has to be made into a serious threat. I don't see him working as is in a film adaption.


I think you're getting way too defensive your opinion, lol.

Oh, and I'm actually from Manhattan (aka "The Big Apple" )

i am indeed shocked *shakes hand*

Vulture story wise has the right frame work.. if he's a genius tinkerer (which he is) who has his ideas stolen and is framed and sent to jail (that gives him interesting motive especially if he can make a make-shift suit ala tony stark in prison..

Vulture is a good revenge story imo and can be pretty compelling without changing a whole lot.. make him more middle aged.. than a frail 70 year old.. and it's pretty spot on. there's lots of ground work there to make him impressive especially with the weapon set i previously described.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

And again, Shocker just like Spot, Molten Man and Hydroman, has cool abilitties, has potential for character development and stories yet they don't do anything with him.

id prefer if they want to develop those characters... do it in the comics.. don't do it in a movie first (personally) but after a comic does it well...

Mysterio has always kinda been in that boat as well (as much as people don't want to believe) Mysterio's best story is when he fought Daredevil....

everyone has potential.. but i don't want to see a character that's never had any in any other outlet be suddenly thrusted into the limelight in a film that is nothing remotely like who they are in the books.

I've been saying it for decades.. spidey has 2 great female villains no one has ever really fully utilized as a mass threat... and that's Calypso and Shriek. So i understand your concept.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Hey what's wrong with Vulture? Geez, don't get to be too sophisticated a fan. Obviously were he to be the villain, he'd have to be morphed into something way cooler, but then again look what Raimi did to Doc Ock. I think his creepy face made him more menacing than he would've been otherwise.

while i agree with your vulture statement i do not agree with Ock... everything good about Spider-Man 2 ock was basically comic ock accurate... everything that sucked bout Spider-Man 2 ock was not from the comics...

- Making him THAT sympathetic
- Letting the Arms control him rather than him just being an ego driven megalomaniac
- Giving him essentially Connors story of mentor and a loved one.
- Letting Ock die as a hero..

Raimi had the right idea by the belief "no one is born a villain" but he seemed to have a hard time wrestling with the fact that some people just become bad eggs.. and once on that dark-path.. they stay on it. and get darker.

 

[SoNicRaDiATioN]

Didn't Claremont change Magneto into a new character back in the 70s, didn't Bendis change Purple Man into a new character in Alias, didn't Dini change Mr. Freeze into a new character in BTAS? All those seem like improvements to me, keep the basic concepts, add vastly superior characterization.

Frankly I think some of these villains are such non entities character wise (with no real characterization or characterization that changes writer to writer) that revamping their personality would be a huge improvement. It might not work, but nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Well said. As a writer I've always taken offense when people think these characters can't or shouldn't change beyond what has been established, especially if it improves the character by adding richness and depth. Some characters don't need it, but some do, especially if looked upon with a cinematic purview. Why waste potential just because writers have been too lazy to add anything new and evolve certain characters over the years? Maybe it was a lack of imagination or perhaps editorial policy played a role, whatever the reason, if a character creates a narrative deficiency that could be improved upon, I'm all for the comic writers (screenwriters & filmmakers in this case) taking a crack at improving it.

 

[4thWallBreaker]

The Chameleon was Pete's first villains. Then The Vulture. Why not both working together in some scheme. Work his Spider-Sense to figure out who's who with the Chameleon and his reaction time with the swift Vulture.

Building up to the sequels' Mysterio, who I think'd be perfect for a story. He'd really put Spidey's Spidey-Sense to work. Maybe throw in somebody as an intro and/or outro villain, like Shocker with his vibro-cuffs. Like Amazing Spider-Man 2 did with Rhino, only better. Idk.

Then Sinisiter Six as the third. We can have some repeats from older films, just different interpretations. Kraven, being brothers with Chameleon wants his revenge and hunts him for the group. Then you have a mad scientist (Doc Ock) and Norman doing his thing. Shocker reappears bc he's super down on his luck from the last quickie from the previous film. Throw in Scorpion and at the end, have Norman make his son Harry become the Hobgoblin. Conflict, then crazy battle against the bad dudes.

Heck, Venom being the third movie would be cool. Then have a spinoff of Venom with a Carnage story. Idk. Save Sinister 6 for the fourth flick? So many stories to tell.

 

[AvegningSpider]

Chamaleon/Vulture for first. Perfect
Mysterio/Shocker for second. Perfect
Sinister Six introducing Kraven, Doc Ock, Goblin, Hobgoblin in one. Kinda clutered, but not bad, could be saved for two movies later with introducing them before.
Venom for third. Build up him in the first and second, heck even have him only in the second as a Journalist for the Bugle, you have yourself time with him and you can have him as Venom. I myself just have him at the fourth so that we can have the Symbiote at the end of the third.
Not bad, not bad at all.

 

[Webhead2006]

personally if/when chameleon is used they should have him paired with kraven and actually play off there family bond there. It would be great to see that on film. Then having him show up and no ties to kraven.

No to making harry hobgolin/venom or anything else. Either you do him and norman as goblins or just keep norman as goblin. Then do kingsley as hobgoblin and all. I do not want to see them take one guy who is x guy and just massively rewrite him into a different character.

 

[JOE]

I've never been a fan of the Vulture... I hope the streak continues of not seeing him in live action. I'd much rather watch Falcon in Civil War.

 

[AvegningSpider]

I've never been a fan of the Vulture... I hope the streak continues of not seeing him in live action. I'd much rather watch Falcon in Civil War.

Eh, most of us are pushing Mysterio for Spider-Slam 2017.
Also JOE, is your avatar a black square in purpose or it isn't showing?

 

[Spider-Gnome]

I still prefer Vulture for the first film, for reasons I mentioned numerous times, but I wouldn't mind Mysterio, because I always liked his design as a kid.