Homecoming Who should be the Villain in Spider-Man (2017)? - Part 2

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I have a hard time thinking of a villain that could carry a Spiderman movie by itself outside of Ock and Goblin. Looking at the usual structure of a Spidey story: Peter is dealing with school life or some other personal dilemma. A villain arises to do basic badguy things. From there on it's half n half of personal drama and life of hero. How that could be expanded to a movie that doesn't feel like an expanded tv episode is beyond me. SM1 and SM2 did it well. But then again they used the 2 best Spiderman villains of the rogues gallery. So my bet is, they simply have to have the ability to write a very untraditional Spiderman story that still makes room for the trademark soap opera elements in order to make this succeed

Funny the two villians you think could carry a film by themselves are the two villians Sony actually did well (in most people's eyes anyway) particularly Ock (coincidence). Vision and execution is what's lacking, not potential. Outside of those two there are definitely others who could carry a film. Just break the mold and give us something new.

Mysterio
Kingpin
Kraven
Chameleon
Vulture
Sin-Eater
Hobgoblin (my personal favorite but likelywould followGG, so..)

And if they ever decide to do the Lizard, Electro and Venom properly, that's 10, without Ock or Goblin.

I'd also love to see The Spot get a crack :up:
 
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People usually say this or that particular character won't work, because they can't envision themselves how someone else envision, this or that character would be portrayed. So immediately, it is discounted in their minds.

or the fact that it won't work without severely changing the character... and that's something they don't want to see happening either.
 
or the fact that it won't work without severely changing the character... and that's something they don't want to see happening either.

I agree with that to a point, depending on what particular character. Look how much they changed Whiplash & Mandarin for an example.
 
or the fact that it won't work without severely changing the character... and that's something they don't want to see happening either.

Very true. But if it makes it work on screen and takes the character to another level, I'm all for it.
 
We got a GotG movie because Kevin Fiege thought the concept had potential and could work as a summer blockbuster, not because the team was popular.
haha and just why do you think he thought it'd make for a good summer block buster? BECAUSE THE FANS LOVED IT

The GotG comics had dismal sales prior to the announcement of the movie, and they were always seen as a niche group (kinda like where characters like Agents of Atlas or the monster version of the Howling Commandos are right now). The same thing with the Inhumans and Jessica Jones. Nobody was clamoring for an Inhuman movie before, and then the announcement came, and Marvel is pushing them like never before. Fiege knew that the Inhumans was a franchise that had the potential to be greater. Look at Jessica Jones. Many comic fans wrote her off for years because all she did was stand in the background carrying Luke's baby (with many of those fans saying JJ was stagnating Luke as a character). Nobody was asking for a Jessica Jones show. Lo and behold, Marvel put out a Jessica Jones show because they knew she could bring something new to the table, and now fan perception to the character has changed.

all the properties you listed are a niche group.. but a strong cult following... the fans in those niche groups absolutely rave about those properties.. im not talking mass appeal major selling comics here (never have been) these were all basically Marvel's "Indie" characters... independent off-shoots in their universe (Just like the Runaways) but they were all well received properties.. sales be damned.


LMFAO. I think you are vastly overestimating the general audience's investment in these characters. Most of them don't give a **** about a villain that they saw on a cartoon they grew up on watching as a kid. If anything, most of them only care about the heroes, because those are the faces of the franchise. Only A-list villains like Joker, Harley Quinn and Catwoman have broken that barrier because of how mainstream they are and how much media exposure they've gotten on all levels. To the average non-comic book reading moviegoer, Mysterio is just as unknown as any other character.

And not knowing comic book characters doesn't make them uncultured, dim-witted buffoons...

i'm not overestimating anything... this isn't Iron-Man leveled obscurity.. regardless of what you may thing.

Yeah, I defiently agree with you there. I never said I want Prowler to be the villain, but just a villain that could potentially be used. I think Prowler could be a really nice parallel to Peter Parker, and a bad guy who is manipulated by a bigger villain. I'm not against Mysterio at all, and actually think he'd be a great choice (certainly better than Vulture), but that doesn't prevent me from exploring other avenues.

sorry, the fact anyone is pushing for the likes of The Spot, Prowler, Puma, Mr. Negative and even Hammerhead is just laughable. you have the right to want what you want.. but there's no way they'd waste spots for characters like that... especially someone like Prowler who while i do like him (and desperately want them to finally do a Marvel Legends figure of him) he has absolutely no weight or adds anything to the Spider-Mans 60+ year history... its dead weight and un-needed.
 
Spot is in the same realm as Vulture. I'd love to see him on film, but he just wouldn't work as a central villain. As a side-fight or a hired thug, then heck yes. But they don't have the material to justify them as "big bad" candidates.

I personally like what they did with Vulture in one of the Raimi Spider-Man movie games... they really fleshed out his weaponry.. and brought out more of his tinkering side.. this is honestly why i'd pair him in with the Spider-Slayer/Smythe storyline. I'd have Smythe steal his ideas and frame him for embezzling funds. in prison he tinkers away making his vulture suit (or a rough version of it) You can still make Scorpion a part of this with the 2 teaming up at the end to get revenge on Smythe with spidey and jameson tangled right into it.

the game made Vulture a bit more like Archangel than Falcon. He could shoot out metal blades from his wings, and launch bombs. Throw in talon gloves.. and he's pretty visually compelling for an arial battle. I also liked what one of the more recent games did to him, Web of Shadows, where his wings were basically magnetized.. and didn't connect to anything. Visually that would really be something different and interesting.

http://static1.squarespace.com/stat...d/1389496611176/int_full_vulture_render01.jpg

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/DHetn1sJqIM/maxresdefault.jpg

the wings are way too sword like, but the concept works nice (and would also separate him from falcon)
 
Definitely green. And I think we might be seeing a more tech/Iron Man-inspired look, complete with a retractable helmet. (because let's face it, Toomes would definitely use a headguard while flying at sonic speeds). I also think his suit will grant him enhanced strength and speed, basically Marvel expanding on his abilities/arsenal to better set him apart from the inevitable MCU Green Goblin and make him more of a serious threat to Spidey.

id hate to see a vulture who flew at sonic speeds to be honest... he doesn't need to be able to do that... his speed should just be about as fast as spidey swings.. which is not SONIC at all...
 
LoL...I don't think anybody is pushing these characters you're railing against Spideyboy_1111 as a main villain or a villain to carry a film. Their inclusion however, could be paramount to a story, in support of a plot, circumstance, or situation.
 
I think one thing that makes Spider-Man's whole world of characters so great and rich is that in the comics there is a great balance of joke tier, low tier, mid tier and high tier villains. It would be awfully boring if Marvel tried to make every single villain come off as some big deal.

Looking at Spider-Man's lore as a whole, even the joke and low tier villains serve the big picture in a big way by giving it variety, personality and a sense of realism which makes the whole world of Spider-Man's feel organic and mirroring the real world. There is a purpose of a villain not being "great".

A villain being joke- or low tier doesn't mean he's not well written or likeable. What seperates them from the rest is that they don't cause too much trouble in Spider-Man's or Peter Parker's life. They're mostly easy for him to take out and they make for some laid back and fun pages. Once in a while they have great character moments and use their abilities more to their potential, but it's more rare than of the villains of higher tiers.

To talk about The Spot as an example. Yes, he has some cool powers. But part of him is also that he doesn't use his powers to their full potential. It's like the real world - there are lots of people with skills they don't use to their full potential. There are also people in the real world who desperately try too much for their own good to do things they simply aren't skilled enough to do.

That's not to say the comics are or should be static. Kraven is a great example of a villain rising in ranks and I think a lot of people would say he's high tier after Kraven's Last Hunt. Now there are also lots of people who'd love to see him on the big screen. Tombstone in Spectacular Spider-Man is another example.

So, in the comics there needs to be a balance of bad and good villains to make the world richer and more real. Trying too hard to up the ante with every villain could actually hurt more than help.

The films are obviously different though. There won't be time to show too much of these joke or low tier villains on film. The stakes need to be high in about two hours each or else the films will feel like a waste of time. I simply don't see any room for a villain like The Spot when there are so many other villains who are better and have much more potential. The comics could do a "Kraven's Last Hunt" on The Spot (though very unlikely), but a film is not the place for that.

What about Iron Man, Ant-Man and so on? Well, those movie villains aren't nearly on the same level as should be expected from a Spider-Man villain. Spider-Man has arguably the best rogues gallery alongside Batman and Superman (perhaps X-Men). His villains are some of the most famous and familiar out there. It would be stupid to chose to instead spend time and energy on an obscure and lesser villain.

That's not to say that the films can't improve on villains (I think they should). But the villains they improve on need to be the familiar and famous ones because they also have the most potential. Vulture is an example of a villain who I think could carry a film if improved on slightly. He's a cold and old villain who I think would fit great to be calculating and "old man smart". Looking down on someone like Spider-Man for being "young and easily fooled". Being so cold as it makes you wonder if he has any sense of empathy at all. That could make for a great movie villain.

Shocker is a low tier villain who could work great in a film as a hired gun in favour of someone like The Spot because a) he's more familiar and famous, b) he's way more popular and c) he's lots of times portrayed as a badass (even though he also lots of times is portrayed as a joke) which would make for a cool villain. They should improve on his character, but they should not try to make Shocker out to be something bigger than he is. That would take away part of why he's so popular: he's somewhat relatable and human compared to a lot of other villains. He's not in the same league as Doc Ock, and he knows it. Giving him the role of a leading villain would be untrue to the character we love.

I think why it's harder to justify spending time and energy on trying to make low tier villains better on film compared to other media like comics and cartoons is that there is such a limited time for films to do that. There are way more people who long for Kraven or Mysterio to show up that it would even feel a bit unfair.

If Marvel for some reason make The Spot a higher tier villain by writing great character evolving stories that come to define him more than his place as a joke villain, then after that he might deserve a place in the films.

agrees, this is why i completely LOATHED the idea of changing so much about electro in Amazing 2... the guy is not a "big bad" he is not a master mind... his character arch needed to be the perfect mirror of Peter Parker... in that Electro fully represents Having Great Power, and Lacking Responsibility. Electro is a thug and a petty criminal who just so happens to have an incredibly dangerous power.

let the top tier villains who are masterminds .. and have the brains to pull off big things, pull off big things... and let the smaller ones be smaller ones.
 
Wall crawler there is easily plently of villains bug name to secondary that could easily headline and make a good 2 hr movie from. Ock and goblin are not the only ones who could be a solo film baddie by themselfs. So it's like many think oh mysteri, vulture, scorpion for examples couldn't lead line a film and be a good film. Again it's all about the story in the film and the actor playing the role. If it would work or not. So I don't see way folks can't see guys like them couldn't do it. Now sure we all have guys we like or dislike and it's our own opinions why we like or hate said guy. But ti say x guys couldn't be film guys is not right train if thought.
 
I agree with that to a point, depending on what particular character. Look how much they changed Whiplash & Mandarin for an example.

and electro...

and lizard...

my basic rule of thumb is if they are a popular character and have worked well for 60+ years.. there's a reason for it. Let them breathe.

combining Crimson Dynamo and Whiplash was weird, but he is the less known out of the bunch... the GA is more familiar with Lizard and Electro than Mandarin and Whiplash. They have more room to alter.

But Mandarin was indeed probably the biggest change. But 50% liked it.. 50% did not.

the more popular the character, the more beloved, the less wiggle room for change. (that goes for characterization, back story, gender, race, etc..)
 
LoL...I don't think anybody is pushing these characters you're railing against Spideyboy_1111 as a main villain or a villain to carry a film. Their inclusion however, could be paramount to a story, in support of a plot, circumstance, or situation.

there's been some........... :o:loco:

i'm fine with the likes of Negative and Hammerhead if there's a big gang war and they're just one of many.. but a film should not focus on them.

just like a film shouldn't focus on Rhino
 
and electro...

and lizard...

my basic rule of thumb is if they are a popular character and have worked well for 60+ years.. there's a reason for it. Let them breathe.

combining Crimson Dynamo and Whiplash was weird, but he is the less known out of the bunch... the GA is more familiar with Lizard and Electro than Mandarin and Whiplash. They have more room to alter.

But Mandarin was indeed probably the biggest change. But 50% liked it.. 50% did not.

the more popular the character, the more beloved, the less wiggle room for change. (that goes for characterization, back story, gender, race, etc..)

Yeah...I'm just talking about MCU treatment...not what Avi/Sony did...which was expected
 
Well again if they wanted to keep the solos more street level threats the mob guys wouldn't be that bad. Again enforcers to hammerhead would likely just be henchmen to minor supporting guys to the likes of kingpin, Silverman and what not.

It would be interesting to see them do spidey more the street guy like comics is. And he doesn't deal with the world destroying stuff outside of the teamup films.
 
Wall crawler there is easily plently of villains bug name to secondary that could easily headline and make a good 2 hr movie from. Ock and goblin are not the only ones who could be a solo film baddie by themselfs. So it's like many think oh mysteri, vulture, scorpion for examples couldn't lead line a film and be a good film. Again it's all about the story in the film and the actor playing the role. If it would work or not. So I don't see way folks can't see guys like them couldn't do it. Now sure we all have guys we like or dislike and it's our own opinions why we like or hate said guy. But ti say x guys couldn't be film guys is not right train if thought.

I disagree... Spidey basically has these villains, in these tiers.

TOP TIER - (Can Carry a Movie completely by themselves. They often effect both the peter and the spidey side of the coin, they are dynamic, personal, and compelling, and are just as big of threats in the comics. These are his top of the rung villains)
-Green Goblin/Norman Osborn
-Doctor Octopus
-Venom

SECONDARY TIER - (These villains have some potential to carry a film by themselves.. usually a smaller scale, like top tier, they can carry great weight on both sides of the spider-man/Peter coin.. even if not by direct connection. They, on the flip side.. can also work well with other villains be it pre-established Top Tier characters.. or Tertiary and below. They are the most versatile of the bunch)
-Kraven
-Lizard
-Hobgoblin
-Carnage
-Jackal
-Morlun

secondary B: small subcategory of secondary villains that fall between secondary and tertiary... King pin for instance needs hired hands, assassins, etc.. a film with just kingpin probably wouldn't work with spidey the way it worked with daredevil.
-Kingpin
-Scorpion
-Mysterio
-Vulture
-Morbius
-Black Cat

TERTIARY FOES - (These villains can not carry a film on their own, they work best with others, they usually are hired hands, they do not have large scale danger or destruction and work with Top and Secondary Tier characters) There powers however are pretty impressive and visually compelling for a thematic release
-Sandman
-Electro
-Hydroman
-Chameleon
-Shocker
-Rhino
-Silvermane
- Mr. Negative
-Calypso
-Beetle
-Boomerang
-Tarantula
-Silvermane
-Speed Demon
-Molten Man
-Man Wolf
-Smythe
-Tombstone
-Shriek
-Doppleganger
-Cardiac


QUATERNARY FOES - These are the morts (in terms of movie-verse). they arn't vastly popular villains or very known, they absolutely can't carry a film and at best should only be used as small cameos (if anything)
-The Spot
-Hammerhead
-Swarm
-Jack-o-Lantern
-White Rabbit
-Big Wheel
-The Fly
-Leap Frog
-The Walrus
-Grizzly
-Stergon
-Gibbon
-Typeface
-Styx and Stone
-Vermin
 
Well again if they wanted to keep the solos more street level threats the mob guys wouldn't be that bad. Again enforcers to hammerhead would likely just be henchmen to minor supporting guys to the likes of kingpin, Silverman and what not.

It would be interesting to see them do spidey more the street guy like comics is. And he doesn't deal with the world destroying stuff outside of the teamup films.

i don't mind a gang war style film... but id prefer it tie into Hobgoblin like it did for the comics... a movie with Kingpin going to war with Silvermane with Hobgoblin playing both sides would be a blast.. throw in spidey's black suite and the likes of Tombstone, Mr Negative, Hammerhead, the Enforcers.. and other gang related lackeys, assassins and hired hands would be a blast
 
Well again if they wanted to keep the solos more street level threats the mob guys wouldn't be that bad. Again enforcers to hammerhead would likely just be henchmen to minor supporting guys to the likes of kingpin, Silverman and what not.

It would be interesting to see them do spidey more the street guy like comics is. And he doesn't deal with the world destroying stuff outside of the teamup films.

That's kinda what I got from the "biggest indie film ever..." comment.
 
That's kinda what I got from the "biggest indie film ever..." comment.

ironically i still view it as "500 Days of Summer" + Action Scenes. which ironically Webb Directed... and I think webb could have pulled off if Sony didn't tie his hands together.
 
ironically i still view it as "500 Days of Summer" + Action Scenes. which ironically Webb Directed... and I think webb could have pulled off if Sony didn't tie his hands together.

True. Webb got pulled in every direction by the studio. We'll never know what he could have achieved if left to his own devices, but I never really liked his Jim Stark inspired Peter.

I love the John Hughes angle, my only trepidation is about the writers....Kinda green, but I'm sure more then capable if Marvel liked them.
 
True. Webb got pulled in every direction by the studio. We'll never know what he could have achieved if left to his own devices, but I never really liked his Jim Stark inspired Peter.

I love the John Hughes angle, my only trepidation is about the writers....Kinda green, but I'm sure more then capable if Marvel liked them.

indeed, i mean i liked his peter more than raimi's who was a man-child. and often seemed a bit of an idiot to me.. but Webb really should have took more inspiration on Tom from 500 days than any one else. That's pretty much Peter to a T.
 
indeed, i mean i liked his peter more than raimi's who was a man-child. and often seemed a bit of an idiot to me.. but Webb really should have took more inspiration on Tom from 500 days than any one else. That's pretty much Peter to a T.

Yeah, when I heard Webb got the gig and I watched that film I was psyched, in particular because of how that character was drawn.

I liked Garfield overall in the role, I was just disappointed I didn't like him more...Just couldn't get past some of those creative choices.

Tobey wasn't perfect either and I definitely wished he had much more of that DIY acumen, but I ultimately prefer him to Garfield simply because the films (1& 2) were much better.
 
Spidey I disagree a little bit with your lists placement for some. But we all going to have disagreements on some things. You have valid points brought up. But again I don't agree with all.
 
Spidey I disagree a little bit with your lists placement for some. But we all going to have disagreements on some things. You have valid points brought up. But again I don't agree with all.

i figured you wouldn't.

and im quite positive i have valid reasons why the few you probably don't agree with belong in the spots i put them in. :cwink:
 
No hate we all won't agree all the time.

no hate indeed.

just literally knew you (and likely Harry) would disagree. Because you're both opposite sides of the same coin of a foreign country in which language i do not speak :-P :awesome::2face:
 
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