Why are so many people deadset against showing the origin?

[Webhead2006]

I do hope they dont mess things up this time around if they do indeed get something going soon. Hopefully they will find the right creative people to put in charge and they make a well rounded character/film and something all fans can get behind.

 

[SuperDaniel]

If they make the story compelling and exciting, i doubt people are going to complain if there's an origin or whatever. They should go for Superman Begins route, IMO.

 

[KalMart]

Our lips are sealed


I'd still prefer using Krypton start off the second film and parallel it over the course of that story and threat.

 

[what_19]

i think the problem with an origin is that it starts soooooooooooo slow....IMO batman begins wasnt very intersting. it dragged. i didnt really care what happened until batman became BATMAN. i know there are those of you you who feel the opposite, but i kind of dug burtons batman where he just "was".
for an origen we are basically wasting the first hour. then we have to build up superman doing the first save, show him wowing people, then meeting lois, jimmy, etc...oh yeh, then we have the big finale.
during an origin movie either minor villians are used (BB rah and sandman) or shortchanged (the green goblin). Most superhero movies get better with the sequel, because you can amp up the action and really advance the characters, because we already know their motives, and its easier to throw a wrench in their plans because we already know them...iron man was different because he wasnt very well known, so its not like superman or batman where everybody BASICALLY knows what went down before they became who they became.

my problem with starting with a superman origin is that you basically have to start with luthor somehow...and if you dont, then who do you start with? if you start with brainiac, then who do you elevate him in terms of action in #2?

darkseid?

doomsday?

i really think batman begins was just filler to set-up TDK the characters are established, we just needed that little "push" to make it an epic. I think the same with spidey-2, which was wayyyyyyyyyy better that spidey-1, and wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy better than spidey-2

SR tried to bypass the origin story, but completely failed to take on that next level of a sequel, even if it was a semi-sequel.

i think it just boils down to the story, and i know that sounds dumb, because it actually is. the bottom line is that if its a great movie, then people will see it. people can say all they want how they don't care how the box-office is just as long as its a good movie....if superman returns had done better BO i wonder how many people would be complaining over...it did better than BB, but nothing.

basically, i think people dont want the origin because A) we've seen it already (SMTM, TAS, Smallville) B)it wastes at least half the movie setting up stuff for a "possible" sequel

 

[KalMart]

Sharp Dressed Man


And really...more than any character, Superman needs 'being Superman' to be cool again, moreso than 'becoming Superman'. The former has to be reestablished as something fresh and exciting again...so do that right off the bat (no pun intended). Then once that newer, bigger appeal is established, people will be even more interested in seeing the background/origin. It's like reintroducing a cool new car. Show'em how cool the new completed car looks and drives, and THEN people will be more interested in the engineering and all. Don't just unveil a motor block first, then a chassis, the hydraulics, etc and eventually get to the completed product.

 

[what_19]

^^^^exactly

 

[BestGirl]

Which is why using it in a different place and 'function', if you will, than 'the first 15 minutes or so' might be the best way to go. You can get more narrative meat out of it, and the overall film(s) itself will have more chronological variety in its storyline.

I think this is the only way to satisfy everyone. We can start out with action but can still weave the origin into the story.

 

[what_19]

i think superman returns used the beginning scene very well...just a quick blurb about him, then move onto the story....people basically know the deal. get to the action IMO

 

[KalMart]

I think this is the only way to satisfy everyone. We can start out with action but can still weave the origin into the story.

I see it more of using the best of what the character history has to offer to put together a good set of films for the widest audience possible. I don't think they should include or exclude the origin for the sake of satisfying fans, so to speak, because they're never going to cover everything that everyone wants. if, for some reason, they plot out a story that seems to have no place for any growing-up-on-Smallville stuff for example, and they feel really good about the story they have, then so be it...no growing-up-on-Smallville. Even though some avid fans would want to see it. most moviegoers probably wouldn't know or mind that it's missing if they like what they ARE getting.

So at this point, I see the background stuff as optional, and a good option if weaved in creatively/unexpectedly...but not imperative for a restart, at least not so early or even in a first film.

 

[what_19]

i think you are smart ^^^^

 

[Webhead2006]

There is good pros and cons for origin or no origin. But still like i and others have said if this indeed is a total fresh start you cant just not have any smallville past/krypton past stuff at all. We need to at least see this time around why clark grew up the way he did and why he choices to become a public hero and you have to at least have some mention/footage of krypton. We dont need to go straight out krypton-smallville-metropolis. Like others have said we can do flash backs, TIH with flash backs later, etc......

 

[SuperDaniel]

sORRY kALmART!

Growing up scenes in Smallville are ESSENTIAL to the character because it lays the foundation and tells who he is as a person and why he does what he does. It was never explored right in the movies at all. Not IMO so it's something we've never seen. A Tornado scene and scenes with Lana, Pa Kent is all i ask. I don't really care if they don't show Krypton but Smallville is a must. People always complain Superman is too goody too shoes and always and the right depiction of the city he grew up(Not the bs we see on tv! We need something epic like Forrest Gump)and got his ideals will solve this problem and IS A MUST.

I don't want no mindless action. Superman can still be a fun and entertaining story with the origin and that is essential for the new movie, IMO.

-Start with a montage of baby kal-el being found iun the credits.

-Move on to his pre-Superman days, where he is using his powers in secrecy: Lets say he is in a middle of a War in the middle-east. Doesn't have to be some place real. Call it Casnia in a nod to TAS. Lois & Jimmy are there covering the stuff too and discover someone in Metropolis is being selling technollogy to terrorists. Clark saves some inoccents in the crossfire and hears this. Now we have a motivation of why Clark would go there in the first place.

-Before he goes to city, he drops by Smallville to spend some time with his folks since he's been gone for a long time. Flashbacks to his childhood, tornado scene, goodbye to lana and all. Back to the present, he decides to step up, be known and use a costume to inspire people.

-Superman first appearence and the impact of the having a superpowered being in our lives. BANG! Non-linear storytellling and has action, is fun and exciting that satifies the fans and makes the audience want more, escalating the action in the movie.

-Throw in a supervillain, Brainiac or Metallo, we're set!

BRING ON THE SEQUEL!

 

[Webhead2006]

Those are some good ideas superdaniel and i wouldnt mind seeing it done that way. Some folks think showing origin again means we would be sitting through 40mins or so of krypton/smallville before we even get superman. Heck with what you saw we could probably have him in full suit by 15-20min mark which would be good.

 

[SuperDaniel]

Those are some good ideas superdaniel and i wouldnt mind seeing it done that way. Some folks think showing origin again means we would be sitting through 40mins or so of krypton/smallville before we even get superman. Heck with what you saw we could probably have him in full suit by 15-20min mark which would be good.

I've written that already. It's in my script. Superman will appear in full costume and glory around 40 mins into the movie but there's action before it, with Clark abroad and Clark as a teen. I'm personally REALLY proud of what i've written regarding Smallville because its not boring. It's actually fun and funny especially when we find out he needs glasses

There are nods to silver-age, TAS, Superman for all seaons, Man of Steel, Birthright, Siegel and Shuster, the fleischer cartoons, Christopher Reeve and Batman. It's all in there and that's just the first act of the movie.

 

[Webhead2006]

oh do you have your script done? if so i would like to read your full ideas out, pm me.

 

[SuperDaniel]

I've just written 39 pages yet. It's taking me a long time to write because i'm always revising, rewriting stuff till i'm completely satisfied. I also do storyboards of the sequences to see the camera movements, how i want it to be told, etc.

 

[Webhead2006]

I totally understand these things take time. I dont write myself, i have a few friends who want to be writers and all that and i know you go through many processes and all that. If you do want to have some different eyes looking at it i would love to read what you guy and all that.

 

[KalMart]

sORRY kALmART!

Growing up scenes in Smallville are ESSENTIAL to the character because it lays the foundation and tells who he is as a person and why he does what he does. It was never explored right in the movies at all. Not IMO so it's something we've never seen. A Tornado scene and scenes with Lana, Pa Kent is all i ask. I don't really care if they don't show Krypton but Smallville is a must. People always complain Superman is too goody too shoes and always and the right depiction of the city he grew up(Not the bs we see on tv! We need something epic like Forrest Gump)and got his ideals will solve this problem and IS A MUST.

I don't want no mindless action. Superman can still be a fun and entertaining story with the origin and that is essential for the new movie, IMO.

-Start with a montage of baby kal-el being found iun the credits.

-Move on to his pre-Superman days, where he is using his powers in secrecy: Lets say he is in a middle of a War in the middle-east. Doesn't have to be some place real. Call it Casnia in a nod to TAS. Lois & Jimmy are there covering the stuff too and discover someone in Metropolis is being selling technollogy to terrorists. Clark saves some inoccents in the crossfire and hears this. Now we have a motivation of why Clark would go there in the first place.

-Before he goes to city, he drops by Smallville to spend some time with his folks since he's been gone for a long time. Flashbacks to his childhood, tornado scene, goodbye to lana and all. Back to the present, he decides to step up, be known and use a costume to inspire people.

-Superman first appearence and the impact of the having a superpowered being in our lives. BANG! Non-linear storytellling and has action, is fun and exciting that satifies the fans and makes the audience want more, escalating the action in the movie.

-Throw in a supervillain, Brainiac or Metallo, we're set!

BRING ON THE SEQUEL!

It still can be without being used in the bog-standard first act of the story, though, that's the main thing. I think you're giving Superman too much credit at this pint in time...even if the 'early years' are done as well as they could be done...which you hope they would be anyway....I still think the new Superman movies have to put their stamp on things as early as possible...make it clear that this Superman...BEING Superman, is a new, more contemporary and exciting approach. That'll then give the origin/backstory even more of a dramatic foothold.

I know that avid Superman fans are deeply invested into the character beyond his just flying and having powers...but at this point it's a bit backwards if you still think that a 'deeper' understanding of his past and all that will make the flying and powers more attractive to general audiences, and that we need to stress that more or do it 'better than ever'. They should announce right away that this ain't the same old Superman...that even though you thought you've seen flying and Superpowers, you haven't seen it and experienced it like THIS. Make that more compelling first...then do it up with the background/prehistory because you'll get people more into it that way. Take a more dynamic approach to the actual film/storytelling that way, change up the whole A to B to C linearity and you have a good chance of having it all stand out on more than just the comic-movie or Superhero level. Superman needs that more than anyone these days, because to a lot of people he's as old-hat as it gets...and a bigger better Krypton or Smallville/college years isn't going to help that as much off the launching pad as a bigger better Superman doing what Superman does.

 

[KalMart]

Those are some good ideas superdaniel and i wouldnt mind seeing it done that way. Some folks think showing origin again means we would be sitting through 40mins or so of krypton/smallville before we even get superman. Heck with what you saw we could probably have him in full suit by 15-20min mark which would be good.

How about we have the new Superman within the first five minutes, and then along the way, you intersperse as much krypton/smallville as you want?

 

[SuperDaniel]

1st rule of an action movie and storytelling:

Action needs to escalate.

If we show Superman in the first 5 min and slow it down a lot in the middle, people won't care about the rest of it. Besides, in my script, i don't want to return to Smallville after i've finished with it in the first 20 mins. We can see Superman in full glory for the rest of the movie.

However, we can show glimpes of the powers and all.

Did Iron Man appear in the first 5 mins?

Didn't think so...

That didn't make people leave the theaters.

 

[Webhead2006]

Yea that could work, as i and others have said we dont need to start with linear origin. Their is many ways the origin could be weaved into the film, flash backs, start with some hints of stuff in credits, etc....... Its all in the writers hands their on how do you want to see the origin, what parts of his origin to be seen now in the film, and how do you want to put it in their. I dont want to see a fresh start not to have any origins/ krypton stuff at all cause if you at least include little bits here and their you can set up some future stuff like zod/phantom zone, to brainiac if he isnt in the first film, to other elements i dont really know all to well that could be tied to krypton's past or something in clark's smallville days.

 

[SuperDaniel]

How about we have the new Superman within the first five minutes, and then along the way, you intersperse as much krypton/smallville as you want?

Superman will be essentially in the movie in the first 5 mins. He just won't be wearing the costume but he is going to do the stuff we like

 

[Frodo]

Jenny( 867-5309)

I think Batman Begins handled the origin the best way .

 

[KalMart]

1st rule of an action movie and storytelling:

Action needs to escalate.

If we show Superman in the first 5 min and slow it down a lot in the middle, people won't care about the rest of it.

Pre-rule to that 'first rule', you don't put your BEST action stuff up front,and that's not what I'm suggesting. Tease them, establish the feel of what's to come...then start moving around with the perspective. And they will care if you don't make it feel like you're 'slowing down'....especially if you do teh earlier stuff later or in a second film, after you've hooked everyone in with the first. It's not slowing down, it's introducing more pieces into the picture from different angles.

Besides, in my script, i don't want to return to Smallville after i've finished with it in the first 20 mins. We can see Superman in full glory for the rest of the movie.

However, we can show glimpes of the powers and all.

Did Iron Man appear in the first 5 mins?

Didn't think so...

Are you willing or able to try something different than how Iron Man or Spider Man etc did it....which, in turn, is how the Superman of old did it?

Wouldn't you like to take a more creative approach to how the story is told than what's been done?

Didn't think so, either.

That didn't make people leave the theaters.

They didn't back in 1989 with Batman, either, and that started with Batman as.....Batman.

But again, you're thinking too conventionally and two-dimensionally, and Superman in particular needs more out-of-the-box thinking and composing. he also has to overcome an existing familiarity that other characters like Iron Man don't have, even if one's not attached to the Donner movies. Part of the fun of taking an original approach is playing off that and giving people a take that they aren't expecting, so they enjoy experiencing how it unfolds.

If you really are an aspiring writer, then you should be able to grasp that and be willing to incorporate it if you want something to stand out. And more importantly, recognize when it's most useful...which I feel is clearly the case with a Superman movie/story. Unless you haven't gotten to that point yet, and if that's the case, then hopefully it'll develop. Film, more than any other medium, allows you to rearrange time within a storyline and challenge the audience...not necessarily in a 'we're looking to mess with you' kind of way...but in a more 3-dimensional way that takes full advantage of the format. A Superman movie could do well to push that envelope....not saying it's doomed if it doesn't....but the upside is so strong that it should at least be strongly considered. If it works, people will appreciate the uniqueness of the approach on top of enjoying the superhero-ness of it and what not. So I think it's time to put away the safety blanket, in this case.

 

[SuperDaniel]

I'm going to do all you're saying but i won't show Superman in the first 5 mins. I just don't think it works. It didn't work in the Abrams script, IMO, and it wouldn't work in the story i'm trying to tell. We'll still have superpowered action and clever editing in the beggining to tease people.

So, agreed to disagree.