Why Did Sam Raimi Go Along w/ the Venom Plan?

[gridlockd]

SM2 - Pete's 'confession' to Aunt May.
I actually forgot how much this annoyed me when i first saw it, it doesn't make sense.

Pete doesn't confess, although in the scene that's what he's supposed to be doing, he doesn't mention he had an opportunity to stop the man who killed Ben, all he says is he went to the wrestling instead of the library.
What exactly does Aunt May have here to get all cold on him for?
Because he went to a different destination? So he's responsible in some way for Ben's death?
So what he went to the wrestling?!

I think she was also mad that he kept this secret from her. He had crucial information about her husbands death and he never told her about it. In essence, he's been lying to her all this time.

 

[The Joker]

Peter does confess everything in that scene with Aunt May.

Peter: "I went some place else. Somewhere where I thought I could win some money to buy a car so I could impress Mary Jane. I won the money and the guy wouldn't pay me. Then he got robbed. The thief was running towards me. I could have stopped him but I wanted revenge, so I let him go. I let him get away. He wanted a car, he tried to take Uncle Ben's. Uncle Ben said no, and then he shot him. Uncle Ben was killed that night for being the only one who did the right thing. And....I held his hand when he died. I've tried to tell you so many times"

 

[gridlockd]

Peter does confess everything in that scene with Aunt May.

Peter: "I went some place else. Somewhere where I thought I could win some money to buy a car so I could impress Mary Jane. I won the money and the guy wouldn't pay me. Then he got robbed. The thief was running towards me. I could have stopped him but I wanted revenge, so I let him go. I let him get away. He wanted a car, he tried to take Uncle Ben's. Uncle Ben said no, and then he shot him. Uncle Ben was killed that night for being the only one who did the right thing. And....I held his hand when he died. I've tried to tell you so many times"

Exactly. He never told her the whole story. It's a lie of omisssion. The woman had a right to know how her huband died. She was right to be pissed.

 

[david icke]

Exactly. He never told her the whole story. It's a lie of omisssion. The woman had a right to know how her huband died. She was right to be pissed.

Yeah, in a later post I was told I'd mis-remembered that scene.
But, I see your point about her being angry at not having been told that, also I'm realising the fact this info was so heavy from the p.o.v. of Pete actually being involved in some capacity would put her in shock.
I was thinking she should've forgave Pete rightaway as she doesn't know he has powers, and the guy had a gun, but she's in shock at having to take in all this info, she has to walk away.
Cheers, yeah, I can enjoy that scene more now.

 

[david icke]

First of all, relax dude. Why is everyone so freakin hostile?

Sorry, just got that Spider-man3 bunker mentality helmet on right now. Us folk who like SM3(despite it's flaws) have had 2yrs of shelling from all angles as to how the movie we enjoy is a piece of crap(which is fair enough if you feel that way), and we must be either crazy, stupid or tasteless(which is not so cool).

I suppose your attack on Raimii set me off there. I thought the 'borderline psychotic' thing was quite hostile as well to be honest.
They guy did his best with the situation he was put in.

Is it possible I was just never made aware of these "Often repeated facts"? Sorry if I don't see every thread. I'd like to see it but apparently even you don't know where it is, so I guess it's not that hard to miss.

I meant the 'avi arad' thing being the often repeated info, not the shuttle.

As to the thread that contained the link to the deleted info etc, i will have a look and post a link to it. what is was was someone had set up a myspace with the info and photos from deleted scenes.

and "All knowing knowledge"? Really?

Again, if you hadn't typed up the 'borderline psychotic' thing, i wouldn't have been so sarcastic.

It would be 'borderline psychotic' to ruin your own multimillion dollar franchise out of spite. I'm not saying that's what happened, I said that's what it "felt like".

Ok. But, that's not the way it was typed up before.

I love Raimi. I do blame Avi. But I question why Raimi was "forced" to do anything he truly believed was wrong. That's what the thread is about; Why did he go along?

He just delievered to Arad two of the most finacially successful, critically acclaimed summer blockbusters of ALL TIME. So how does Raimi not have the upper hand? That's all I was asking. Seems to me, he wouldn't have to do anything he didn't want to do. Would Arad have fired Raimi over not doing Venom? Does he have that power? Wouldn't that be a crazy thing to do to a guy who just brought your company so much success? He'd be a laughing stock for such a bonehead move.

Who knows what goes on in the boardroom. Pressure , laying on a guilt trip that the fans wanted him and maybe Raimi was being a bit out of order for only doing the villans he liked/grew up with, maybe Raimi caved because he felt like maybe he was being unfair to fans by only doing villans he liked.
I was also saying iearlier in the thread that I read a rumour that Raimi was starting to think he needed a more bad ass villan than Sandman for the ending. That doesn't take into consideration that he planned a Ben kingsley Vulture(kingsley would be bad ass no doubt), so I don't know if there is any truth to that rumour or someone was just guessing.

Now this space shuttle info you mention is interesting to me. Believe it or not, I wasn't aware of it. Crazy, I know. That would explain a lot. Because I'm sorry, I was really sad and annoyed with SM3, particularly the Venom plot (as it seems, most were) From what you say, it sounds like a victim of editing and compromise, which is how it felt. I'd like to see those documents if anyone knows of the link.

Yeah, I alway sguessed they just couldn't fit it in given teh circumstances. It wasn't so surprising to read that synopsis, given that they lifted a lot from the 90s animated show for the movies.

Seems like the shuttle wouldn't necessarily have to "crash" to make that storyline work.

Well, it would be the most exciting way of doing it. It gives Spidey a reason to come into contact with it, instead of say, PP going round to John Jameson's house to say 'sorry for pinching your girlfriend, how was the moon btw?'.
edit: Either way, if they introduced it in such a way that was not of one scene, it would be yet another plot to juggle in involving another character. and we would have to see a lot of movement on the part of the symbiote, getting from place to place until it got to Peter.

i will try to find that link if memory serves.

ediT: found it, sPiDeRmAn 2o29 posted it up from his myspace on the 'Would a 3.1 or director's cut change your mind?' thread. Hope it is still up there, I didn't click on it as my computer goes wonky sometimes with overloaded myspace pages.
but the synopsis that mentions the space shuttle is in there:

http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=208453706&blogId=367007853

edit: Ok, i clicked to look, I forgot about this, but it also says that there was some scenes shot with John Jameson in Central Park pertaining to him bringing back the symbiote.
who knows what that consisted of, maybe they where going to add in sfx around him?

edit: Oh, and it doesn't actually mention the space shuttle, just that John Jameson brings it back from a space mission. I must've assumed they were going to do it the same way as the cartoon.
So maybe they were going to have him walking through the park, spots MJ and Pete in the web kissing and throws a big piece of gunk he finds on his shoe at them and runs away.

 

[gridlockd]

Sorry, just got that Spider-man3 bunker mentality helmet on right now. Us folk who like SM3(despite it's flaws) have had 2yrs of shelling from all angles as to how the movie we enjoy is a piece of crap(which is fair enough if you feel that way), and we must be either crazy, stupid or tasteless(which is not so cool).

I suppose your attack on Raimii set me off there. I thought the 'borderline psychotic' thing was quite hostile as well to be honest.
They guy did his best with the situation he was put in.


I meant the 'avi arad' thing being the often repeated info, not the shuttle.

As to the thread that contained the link to the deleted info etc, i will have a look and post a link to it. what is was was someone had set up a myspace with the info and photos from deleted scenes.



Again, if you hadn't typed up the 'borderline psychotic' thing, i wouldn't have been so sarcastic.


Ok. But, that's not the way it was typed up before.




Who knows what goes on in the boardroom. Pressure , laying on a guilt trip that the fans wanted him and maybe Raimi was being a bit out of order for only doing the villans he liked/grew up with, maybe Raimi caved because he felt like maybe he was being unfair to fans by only doing villans he liked.
I was also saying iearlier in the thread that I read a rumour that Raimi was starting to think he needed a more bad ass villan than Sandman for the ending. That doesn't take into consideration that he planned a Ben kingsley Vulture(kingsley would be bad ass no doubt), so I don't know if there is any truth to that rumour or someone was just guessing.


Yeah, I alway sguessed they just couldn't fit it in given teh circumstances. It wasn't so surprising to read that synopsis, given that they lifted a lot from the 90s animated show for the movies.


Well, it would be the most exciting way of doing it. It gives Spidey a reason to come into contact with it, instead of say, PP going round to John Jameson's house to say 'sorry for pinching your girlfriend, how was the moon btw?'.
edit: Either way, if they introduced it in such a way that was not of one scene, it would be yet another plot to juggle in involving another character. and we would have to see a lot of movement on the part of the symbiote, getting from place to place until it got to Peter.

i will try to find that link if memory serves.

ediT: found it, sPiDeRmAn 2o29 posted it up from his myspace on the 'Would a 3.1 or director's cut change your mind?' thread. Hope it is still up there, I didn't click on it as my computer goes wonky sometimes with overloaded myspace pages.
but the synopsis that mentions the space shuttle is in there:

http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=208453706&blogId=367007853

edit: Ok, i clicked to look, I forgot about this, but it also says that there was some scenes shot with John Jameson in Central Park pertaining to him bringing back the symbiote.
who knows what that consisted of, maybe they where going to add in sfx around him?

I looked back at my borderline psychotic comment and yeah, it's not in the context I thought it was in. Hard to tell, but I was only half serious.
Anyway, I know how these movie message board battles can be. I just walked in, however. I've actually kinda tried to forget Spidey 3.

But the more you tell me, the angrier I become because I see the potential it had to be a great movie. I guess they were rushed or panicked, but when the alien glob landed right next to Peter's bike (of all the places in the WORLD) my heart sank. You can see how much thought and vision he put into Sandmans' origin, the venom origin was pathetic by comparison. You could just tell Raimis heart wasn't in it. Again, I just don't get why he would cave in. He forced the studio to let Mcguire audition, even though they didn't want him to and that was back when Raimi had a lot less clout. So he sounds like a fighter. Doesn't jive with this theory that this 'toy maker' as you guys say could 'force' him to do anything he didn't want to do. Raimi was king of the world at that point. I just don't get it. It's a shame.
Raimi was right to go through the old school villians first, maybe save Venom for down the line. Venom in the third movie was just a bad idea from the start. It sounds like Raimi knew that, and went ahead anyway. Sorry, I do have to be a little mad at him for that. At least until I hear what really led to the decision. (is there commentary on Spider Man 3?)

Yes, the crash scenerio would be the most exciting, but if they didn't have time to film something like that, they could have said it attached itself to JJJ (And made him Venom) rather than it simply falling out of the sky in a huge cosmic coincidence.

 

[gridlockd]

Yeah, in a later post I was told I'd mis-remembered that scene.
But, I see your point about her being angry at not having been told that, also I'm realising the fact this info was so heavy from the p.o.v. of Pete actually being involved in some capacity would put her in shock.
I was thinking she should've forgave Pete rightaway as she doesn't know he has powers, and the guy had a gun, but she's in shock at having to take in all this info, she has to walk away.
Cheers, yeah, I can enjoy that scene more now.

Cheers. Yeah, she forgives him the next time she sees him. She just need time to digest it.

Here's the scene that bugs ME about Spider man 2:

We open at the party: Harry says MJ is still waiting for you. It's obvious. We know from the end of the last movie how much MJ loves Peter. Peter could have MJ anytime he wants, all he has to do is say the word, right?
So what does he do?
He buys a book of poetry to woo her.
The hell? WHY?
Ock says 'If you want a woman to fall in love with you; feed her poetry.'
Pete thinks this is great advice, so he checks out a book and starts memorizing poems. WHY? Pete is, or should be, well aware MJ loves him. She flat out said so.
It was just to shoehorn some artificial 'heart' into the script. To have a cutesy scene of Peter reading poetry in the laundromat.
Sure she was engaged, but that wasn't fooling anyone. She loved Peter, it was obvious to everyone. Even Harry. It's a dumb scene and a logical error.

There. Fixed one scene for you, ruined another.

 

[david icke]

I guess they were rushed or panicked, but when the alien glob landed right next to Peter's bike (of all the places in the WORLD) my heart sank. You can see how much thought and vision he put into Sandmans' origin, the venom origin was pathetic by comparison. You could just tell Raimis heart wasn't in it.

Honestly, i don't think that was the case with the Venom origin. I think he would've done a much better job if he had the time.
It's an origin that involves extra terrestrial life, so it's a little different and akward to set up if you don't have the time set aside to develop it and fit it into the movie.
I edited my post since you quoted it.
apparently there were scenes shot of John Jameson in Central Park somehow bringing back the symbiote.
It looks like he gave it a go.
but who knows, maybe it was just an awkward scene.
the only thing i can think of is John Jameson having the symbiote stuck to his shoe, he spots PP and MJ kissin' in the web and throws the black gunk from his shoe at them.
Or, it's stuck to him and goes over to Peter.

I came up with a No-Prize solution for the symbiote btw.
The meteorite with the symbiote was sent to PP as a test by powers from beyond, or the Beyonder if you want, as he had become the most powerful person on the planet. It was no coincidence it landed beside him.
Ok, a bit hokey, but really I just accept the circumstances of the compromise and get on with the story.

Again, I just don't get why he would cave in. He forced the studio to let Mcguire audition, even though they didn't want him to and that was back when Raimi had a lot less clout. So he sounds like a fighter. Doesn't jive with this theory that this 'toy maker' as you guys say could 'force' him to do anything he didn't want to do. Raimi was king of the world at that point. I just don't get it. It's a shame.
Raimi was right to go through the old school villians first, maybe save Venom for down the line. Venom in the third movie was just a bad idea from the start. It sounds like Raimi knew that, and went ahead anyway. Sorry, I do have to be a little mad at him for that. At least until I hear what really led to the decision. (is there commentary on Spider Man 3?)

There is, it's the only one I haven't listened to. The truth of the matter is probably not going to be on there, so maybe that's why I've not bothered this time. Proffesional courtesy would prevent him from saying anything too overt about Arad, although i have read a post before that said he alluds to the fact he was 'asked' to put Venom in there.

 

[david icke]

Here's the scene that bugs ME about Spider man 2:

We open at the party: Harry says MJ is still waiting for you. It's obvious. We know from the end of the last movie how much MJ loves Peter. Peter could have MJ anytime he wants, all he has to do is say the word, right?
So what does he do?
He buys a book of poetry to woo her.
The hell? WHY?
Ock says 'If you want a woman to fall in love with you; feed her poetry.'
Pete thinks this is great advice, so he checks out a book and starts memorizing poems. WHY? Pete is, or should be, well aware MJ loves him. She flat out said so.
It was just to shoehorn some artificial 'heart' into the script. To have a cutesy scene of Peter reading poetry in the laundromat.
Sure she was engaged, but that wasn't fooling anyone. She loved Peter, it was obvious to everyone. Even Harry. It's a dumb scene and a logical error.

There. Fixed one scene for you, ruined another.

Even if you know the girl likes you, it doesn't mean you automatically know how to approach that situation. In fact, it could make you even more of a wreck as you know there is something to lose now if you approach her the wrong way. Peter Parker is exactly that kind of awkward guy.

But then he is saying at the end of the movie that he knows they can't be together as she could be put in danger due to his SM ID. So why is he pursuing her?
I think that is down to the fact he torn between who he is in the movie, torn between the two identities, illustrated in the scene when he looks at his two outfits in the wardrobe.
Spider-man knows it's too dangerous, but Peter just wants the normal life and the girl. So, part of him tell shimself it'll be alright and he can get the girl, his heart. His head tells him otherwise.

 

[The Joker]

Even if you know the girl likes you, it doesn't mean you automatically know how to approach that situation. In fact, it could make you even more of a wreck as you know there is something to lose now if you approach her the wrong way. Peter Parker is exactly that kind of awkward guy.

Exactly. Not to mention Peter has zero experience in the romance department. The very fact that he took Octavius' advice about poetry proves that.

It may have worked in the 60's or 70's, whenever Otto met Rosie, but in this day and age, it's a cliche. Poor Peter tries it anyway, and you can see how far it gets him lol. But it was cute in a nerdish way to see him reading that poetry book while washing his Spidey costume with his white socks and undies that got all stained red

 

[Spider-Kid]

I'm not a huge fan of the Vulture(although I'm not a huge fan of much of Spidey's villains except for a few), I would say that Ben Kinglsey would've made a great Vulture. He's a great actor, and I believe his talents combined with THC(another amazing actor) would've been quite the duo for Spider-Man 3. Instead we got Venom, we got a horrible symbiote storyline, and an awful actor in the form of Topher Grace.

But Arad is gone now, isn't he?

I agree with you on this one, Flash. No for you.

And they actually had Ben Kingsley cast for Vulture.

Untill, of course, Arad convinced Raimi to have Venom in...ugh.

 

[Spider-Kid]

Peter does confess everything in that scene with Aunt May.

Peter: "I went some place else. Somewhere where I thought I could win some money to buy a car so I could impress Mary Jane. I won the money and the guy wouldn't pay me. Then he got robbed. The thief was running towards me. I could have stopped him but I wanted revenge, so I let him go. I let him get away. He wanted a car, he tried to take Uncle Ben's. Uncle Ben said no, and then he shot him. Uncle Ben was killed that night for being the only one who did the right thing. And....I held his hand when he died. I've tried to tell you so many times"

Who the hell didn't notice that scene from the movie?

 

[david icke]

Who the hell didn't notice that scene from the movie?

Who the hell can't be arsed reading through the thread or pretends they didn't just so's they can be a wise ass?

I already said I find the middle powerless section of SM2 to be a bit of drag, so I have been known to skip scenes, or y'know to go make a cup of tea during them. This Aunt May scene being one of them.
So my memory was hazy on one factoid, considering the amount of stuff I was typing up and the fact I wasn't exactly in the best of health while doing so, one faceat of the conversation slipping past my memory is not surprising to me.

 

[Spider-Kid]

Who the hell can't be arsed reading through the thread or pretends they didn't just so's they can be a wise ass?

I already said I find the middle powerless section of SM2 to be a bit of drag, so I have been known to skip scenes, or y'know to go make a cup of tea during them. This Aunt May scene being one of them.
So my memory was hazy on one factoid, considering the amount of stuff I was typing up and the fact I wasn't exactly in the best of health while doing so, one faceat of the conversation slipping past my memory is not surprising to me.

Kk, sorry about that.

 

[david icke]

Kk, sorry about that.

It's cool. We're all wall crawlin' web spinnin' spidey sensin' fanatics here, it's only natural our webs cross from time to time.

 

[Spider-Kid]

It's cool. We're all wall crawlin' web spinnin' spidey sensin' fanatics here, it's only natural our webs cross from time to time.

Agreed.

Funny how some people didn't notice that scene in SM2 though.

 

[david icke]

Funny how some people didn't notice that scene in SM2 though.

I think it was just me, it wasn't the whole scene, my memory just got a bit mixed up with what was said as I hadn't seen it in a while due to skippage.
I wasn't sure if Peter had brought up the part that he could've stopped the robber, I could only recall the bit where he brought up the fact that he had Ben drive him out to the city under false pretences.

RE: the Vulture. Yeah, like yourself and LF, i too would've preferred to have seen a Ben Kingsley Vulture in SM3. I think Venom and teh symbiote deserved it get it's own movie, but i still enjoy what we got of it in SM3.
I'm hoping we'll still get a BK Vulture in a future Raimi SM movie.

 

[Venom'sDad]

Exactly. Not to mention Peter has zero experience in the romance department. The very fact that he took Octavius' advice about poetry proves that.

That's Sam rendition... Lee's Peter Parker had minimal problems with the ladies.

 

[LightningFlash]

I agree with you on this one, Flash. No for you.

And they actually had Ben Kingsley cast for Vulture.

Untill, of course, Arad convinced Raimi to have Venom in...ugh.

for you. Just because I knew Kingsley was in talks to portray Vulture.

Everyone should've known that one t:

 

[Spider-Kid]

for you. Just because I knew Kingsley was in talks to portray Vulture.

Everyone should've known that one t:

Oh. I thought you didn't know Kingsley was in the talks...

sorry.

And I knew that one. t: Who wouldn't?

 

[LightningFlash]

oh. I thought you didn't know kingsley was in the talks...

Sorry.

And i knew that one. t: Who wouldn't?

 

[Spider-Kid]

Forgive my nubness...

 

[LightningFlash]

Hahaha, see, I like you, so I apologize with calling you a *****ebag.

 

[Spider-Kid]

Hahaha, see, I like you, so I apologize with calling you a *****ebag.

Alright, let's not argue about stupid s*** ever again...it's pointless...

 

[LightningFlash]

^^ I was just having a bad time, talking to fanboys regarding Spider-Man 3, plus being overdrafted...it sucks when you pay for gas on credit and you forget about, THEN it shows up on your bill three days later.