Why Do Girls Like jerks?

[Paradoxium]

Nature's Path Leads to Women

As men, we are governed by two masters: Mind and Nature. (NOT mind and body. Nature refers to the processes and cycles that our bodies are only but a part.)

Both fight one another.

Mind: "The finest philosophies will get us the women."

Nature: "You bore me. Unleash me."

But what will get the women?

Mind: "Calculation. Seduction."

Nature: "Instinct. Masculinity."

And why should you get any women?

Mind: "Because everyone else is, and I am not."

Nature: "Because I am MALE and she is FEMALE."

Now let us throw some obstacles at the two. Let us say they are unceasingly unsuccessful in obtaining the beautiful women.

What are your reactions?

Mind: "This is obviously a failure within my calculation, my framing of the events. I will solve this with more seduction

research, essay writing on message boards, for I treat sexual dynamics like an academic degree."

Nature: "The failure is in not being male enough. Increased masculinity is the solution."

But you who enraged the poets and tortured the philosophers, please please elaborate.

Nature: When the embryo is at three months, it is unisex. It is both sexes at once. Alas, from then it divides into a gender (of which we cannot choose, of which enforces a code of conduct and duties of behavior we cannot control or understand. And we call ourselves free...)

Mind: Yes, yes. One half turns male, the other female. It is in my books.

Nature: Then I shall burn your library. For Nature always has more secrets then you can decipher. Gender is not all or none.

There is a MIX.

Mind: But this is in my books. In Sex and Character, Weineger says that from birth, males and females are divided. Some males are 70% male, 30% female. Others are 80% male, 20% female. It is vice versa for women. We know of effininate men. We know of tom boys. Attraction is not a choice. A male that is 60% male and 40% female will attract a female that is 60% female and 40% male. A female that is 90% female and 10% male will attract a male that is 90% male and 10% female. It is a fact that some men are more feminine than others. This attraction scale is destiny: we mate with what fills the void the best. This is the mix that Weineger speaks of, is marked in the very first chapter of his book and made everything else possible.

Nature: I wonder if you would talk then till doomsday? Your followers, your philosophers, lawyers, academics, prattle and rattle on just like you! You are completely unaware of the seasons of life that color and sparkle the world. But I hesitate!

Mind: Like the flow and ebb of the moon.

Nature: Quiet you! Weineger and others of his ilk made good attempts at trying to discover my secrets. They tried to 'pop' themselves out of my earthly cycle and peer upon my work with the eyes of a god. Melancholy is my vengeance. Nieztche and Keirkegard, I drove those two mad. For Weineger I made his life so unpleasant that he had to shoot himself.

Mind: Is this your only vengeance?

Nature: No. It is reserved for anyone who frustrates my cycle. A man who persistantly stays single becomes a public temptation. I chisel away at him to make him more appropriate and correct the purpose of getting the women and carrying on my work.

Mind: But he will not do this. And your melancholy will not work due to the female attention he recieves.

Nature: I make and unmake the Adonis. The beautiful boy, refusing to use my gift for my purpose, enjoys being slaughtered by the elephant's tusk, the early untimely death. I will not be defied.

Mind: Yet, Weineger explained you.

Nature: Fool! Your 'mix' is all wrong. It is true that it is not simply 'male' and 'female'. But there is androgenous, where the male levels are so low in the male that he is barely a male. Or that the female levels are so low in the female that she is barely a female.

Mind: You divided us before birth.

Nature: And I inject you again with my touch at puberty. The boy must become a man and the girl a woman. But, alas, many attempt to buck my ways to follow YOU. Nerds, geeks, we know the labels. The longer a man tries to ignore the fact of my mission and cycle, the more pain and loneliness I will add into him until he has no choice to act.

Mind: You are vicious.

Nature: It gets the job done. But Weineger is wrong. We are not born onto a spectrum. Rather, we can add to it or decrease it. The element of attraction is destruction.

Mind: Destruction?

Nature: If a woman is amazingly female, what is the result?

Mind: Hordes of men hunt after her.

Nature: Yes. Extremeness of spectrum is an anomaly that must be seeked out and destroyed. The female is feminine with matter. Girls at an early age are aware the effects their bodies have on young men. They know they are like a magnet. But who do they go for? The beautiful woman is the extreme female? Why, she is seeking the extreme male. By the actions of the jerk, who can say that he is not looking for destruction? He finds it in her and she finds it in him. I demand sterilization of the two. The more successes they have, the more and more it is drained from them. Eventually, they settle for one mate and begin the march toward the androgenous.

Mind: So the beautiful woman is attracted to the jerk because...

Nature: It is better to say that the extreme female woman is attracted to the extreme male man.

And this is the utterly simple secret. Jerks are not super confidant, not superior in all seduction knowledge. Jerks are testosteronized males. This seperates them from the Nice Guys who still defy the flooding of testosterone Nature inflicts on them.


Science of Testosterone

Be a Man!: "A Man is one who is not afraid of his testosterone."

This will seem incredibly basic. But to illustrate the effects, look at the effects of men who must be injected with artificial testosterone because (for whatever reason) their body isn't making enough (usually due to having HIV).

One HIV positive guy shares his differences with the before and after shots:

His weight increases from 165 pounds to 185 pounds. The collar size goes from 15 to 17 1/2, the chest from 40 to 44. His appetite expands beyond measure. Before he was constantly napping. Now he has enough energy for daily workouts and strict work schedules. Before, depression was a regular feature. Now, it is a 'distant memory'. With the testosterone shots, he feels better to recover from life's curveballs, more persistant, more alive.

There are more effects. With the testosterone, he feels more energy. The attention span shortens. He finds it harder to concentrate on writing and feels he must exercise. The wit becomes quicker, the mind faster, and the judgement more impulsive. It is literally a 'rush'.

Without the testosterone, he finds himself more reserved. The energy still is there but is geared towards interaction rather than action, toward pride rather than lust. He rarely looks for dates or thinks of approaching women without it. But with it, he is constantly scanning the women for potential dates and socializing.

With testosterone comes increased debating type attitudes, and increased anger. Driving makes him scream at the other cars and 'stupid drivers'. (This is oddly reminiscent of Thomas Jefferson's personality when he was always said to be 'unemotional' except when riding a horse and became 'overly' emotional.) With testosterone comes increased impatience, increased edginess, but increased self-confidence.

Now do these traits of the under-testosteronized male and over-testosteronized male match the Nice Guy and Jerk? They do most accurately.

For the rest, we require a scientist.

A scientist appears.

There you are! Oh, Mr. Scientist, do tell us more about Testosterone.

"I'd love to, Pook.

"Testosterone, oddly enough, is a chemical closely related to cholesterol. It was first isolated by a Dutch scientist in 1935 from mice testicles and successfully synthesized by the German biologist Adolf Butenandt. Although testosterone is often thought of as the definition of maleness, both men and women produce it. Men produce it in their testicles; women produce it in their ovaries and adrenal glands. The male body converts some testosterone to estradiol, a female hormone, and the female body has receptors for testosterone, just as the male body does. That's why women who want to change their sex are injected with testosterone and develop male characteristics, like deeper voices, facial hair and even baldness. The central biological difference between adult men and women, then, is not that men have testosterone and women don't. It's that men produce much, much more of it than women do. An average woman has 40 to 60 nanograms of testosterone in a deciliter of blood plasma. An average man has 300 to 1,000 nanograms per deciliter."

Ok, ok, Mr. Scientist. You are putting this Pook to sleep. The EFFECTS of testosterone. Focus on the EFFECTS.

"Certainly, Pook.

"Testosterone's effects start early -- really early. At conception, every embryo is female and unless hormonally altered will remain so. You need testosterone to turn a fetus with a Y chromosome into a real boy, to masculinize his brain and body. Men experience a flood of testosterone twice in their lives: in the womb about six weeks after conception and at puberty. The first fetal burst primes the brain and the body, endowing male fetuses with the instinctual knowledge of how to respond to later testosterone surges. The second, more familiar adolescent rush -- squeaky voices, facial hair and all -- completes the process."

Go on.

"The effect of testosterone is systemic. It engenders both the brain and the body. Apart from the obvious genital distinction, other differences between men's and women's bodies reflect this: body hair, the ratio of muscle to fat, upper-body strength and so on. But testosterone leads to behavioral differences as well. Since it is unethical to experiment with human embryos by altering hormonal balances, much of the evidence for this idea is based on research conducted on animals. A Stanford research group, for example, as reported in Deborah Blum's book "Sex on the Brain," injected newborn female rats with testosterone. Not only did the female rats develop penises from their clitorises, but they also appeared fully aware of how to use them."

What!

"Indeed. But let me continue."

 

[Kritish]

This explains why the ladies are all over me.

 

[Paradoxium]

Yes, I am sorry.

"And these female rats were trying to have sex with other females with merry abandon. Male rats who had their testosterone locked after birth, on the other hand, saw their penises wither or disappear entirely and presented themselves to the female rats in a passive, receptive way. Other scientists, theorizing that it was testosterone that enabled male zebra finches to sing, injected mute female finches with testosterone. Sure enough, the females sang. Species in which the female is typically more aggressive, like hyenas in female-run clans, show higher levels of testosterone among the females than among the males. Female sea snipes, which impregnate the males, and leave them to stay home and rear the young, have higher testosterone levels than their mates. Typical "male" behavior, in other words, corresponds to testosterone levels, whether exhibited by chromosomal males or females."

But does this apply to Humans?

"The evidence certainly suggests that it does, though much of the "proof" is inferred from accidents. Pregnant women who were injected with progesterone (chemically similar to testosterone) in the 1950's to avoid miscarriage had daughters who later reported markedly tomboyish childhoods."

Incredible!

"Ditto girls born with a disorder that causes their adrenal glands to produce a hormone like testosterone rather than the more common cortisol. The moving story, chronicled in John Colapinto's book "As Nature Made Him," of David Reimer, who as an infant was surgically altered after a botched circumcision to become a girl, suggests how long-lasting the effect of fetal testosterone can be. Despite a ruthless attempt to socialize David as a girl, and to give him the correct hormonal treatment to develop as one, his behavioral and psychological makeup was still ineradicably male. Eventually, with the help of more testosterone, he became a full man again. Female-to-male transsexuals report a similar transformation when injected with testosterone. One, Susan/Drew Seidman, described her experience in The Village Voice last November. 'My sex-drive went through the roof,' Seidman recalled. 'I felt like I had to have sex once a day or I would die. . . . I was into porn as a girl, but now I'm really into porn.' For Seidman, becoming a man was not merely physical. Thanks to testosterone, it was also psychological."

So what makes a Man?

"I don't know what exactly makes a man. But one thing I can tell you for sure: it is not his penis."

Oh wise sage! Wonderful scientist!

But do not confuse testosterone with Popeye's spinach. Nature says, "Testosterone levels will rise when the situation warrants it. Survival is the priority." So in cases of danger, of war, the testosterone levels increase. When in a strip club or viewing a porno website, testosterone levels also rise. Men with higher testosterone achieve psychological dominance, have high self esteem, and move through the world with natural confidence.

"But Pook. I have more to add."

Tarry! Then I will step aside and let you speak.

"Testosterone is clearly correlated in both men and women with psychological dominance, confident physicality and high self-esteem. In most combative, competitive environments, especially physical ones, the person with the most testosterone wins. Put any two men in a room together and the one with more testosterone will tend to dominate the interaction."

Gentlemen, this is your secret 'ingredient' to that 'alpha-maleness' you keep longing for.

"Working women have higher levels of testosterone than women who stay at home, and the daughters of working women have higher levels of testosterone than the daughters of housewives. A 1996 study found that in lesbian couples in which one partner assumes the male, or "butch," role and another assumes the female, or "femme," role, the "butch" woman has higher levels of testosterone than the "femme" woman."

Ahh! So in lesbian couples, one acts male and the other acts female.

"In naval medical tests, midshipmen have been shown to have higher average levels of testosterone than plebes. Actors tend to have more testosterone than ministers, according to a 1990 study. Among 700 male prison inmates in a 1995 study, those with the highest testosterone levels tended to be those most likely to be in trouble with the prison authorities and to engage in unprovoked violence. This is true among women as well as among men, according to a 1997 study of 87 female inmates in a maximum security prison."

Whohoo! The key to dominance!

"Careful Pook.

"Although high testosterone levels often correlate with dominance in interpersonal relationships, it does not guarantee more social power. Testosterone levels are higher among blue-collar workers, for example, than among white-collar workers, according to a study of more than 4,000 former military personnel conducted in 1992."

But is testosterone like adrenaline? Or does it respond to long-term surrounding environment stimuli?

"Well Pook, studies have shown that inner-city youths, often exposed to danger in high-crime neighborhoods, may generate higher testosterone levels than unthreatened, secluded suburbanites. And so high testosterone levels may not merely be responses to a violent environment; they may subsequently add to it in what becomes an increasingly violent, sexualized cycle."

Increase in violence AND sexuality? Then it's no accident that testosterone-soaked ghettos foster both high levels of crime and high levels of illegitimacy!

"Indeed, Pook. In the same way, declines in violence and crime may allow testosterone levels to drop among young inner-city males, generating a virtuous trend of further reductions in crime and birth rates. This may help to explain why crime can decline precipitously, rather than drift down slowly, over time."

But what for the men who enter that dungeon, I mean marriage?

"Studies have also shown that men in long-term marriages see their testosterone levels progressively fall and their sex drives subsequently decline. It is as if their wives successfully tame them, reducing their sexual energy to a level where it is more unlikely to seek extramarital outlets. A 1993 study showed that single men tended to have higher levels of testosterone than married men and that men with high levels of testosterone turned out to be more likely to have had a failed marriage. Of course, if you start out with higher testosterone levels, you may be more likely to fail at marriage, stay in the sexual marketplace, see your testosterone increase in response to this and so on."

So what is the entire point, Mr. Brainy Guy?

"This, then, is what it comes down to: testosterone is a facilitator of risk -- physical, criminal, personal. Without the
influence of testosterone, the cost of these risks might seem to far outweigh the benefits. But with testosterone charging through the brain, caution is thrown to the wind. The influence of testosterone may not always lead to raw physical confrontation. In men with many options it may influence the decision to invest money in a dubious enterprise, jump into an ill-advised sexual affair or tell an egregiously big whopper. At the time, all these decisions may make some sort of testosteroned sense."

It sounds like you are describing a US politician.

"Hush Pook."

Oh, I'm sorry. Continue.

"The effects of testosterone are not secret; neither is the fact that men have far more if it than women. But why? As we have seen, testosterone is not synonymous with gender; in some species, it is the female who has most of it. The relatively new science of evolutionary psychology offers perhaps the best explanation for why that's not the case in humans. For neo-Darwinians, the aggressive and sexual aspects of testosterone are related to the division of labor among hunter-gatherers in our ancient but formative evolutionary past. This division -- men in general hunted, women in general gathered -- favored differing levels of testosterone. Women need some testosterone -- for self-defense, occasional risk-taking, strength -- but not as much as men. Men use it to increase their potential to defeat rivals, respond to physical threats in strange environments, maximize their physical attractiveness, prompt them to spread their genes as widely as possible and defend their home if necessary."

But women are attracted, in the physical imagery sense, to the feminine looking guys. How can testosterone increase physical attractiveness? I do not understand.

"But the picture, as most good evolutionary psychologists point out, is more complex than this. Men who are excessively testosteroned are not that attractive to most women. Although they have the genes that turn women on -- strong jaws and pronounced cheekbones, for example, are correlated with high testosterone -- they can also be precisely the unstable, highly sexed creatures that childbearing, stability-seeking women want to avoid. There are two ways, evolutionary psychologists hazard, that women have successfully squared this particular circle. One is to marry the sweet class nerd and have an affair with the college quarterback: that way you get the good genes, the good sex and the stable home."

This has always been the problem. Nice Guy or Jerk?

"There is a third path."

A third way? And what is it?

"The third way is to find a man with variable testosterone levels, who can be both stable and nurturing when you want him to be and yet become a muscle-bound, bristly gladiator when the need arises. This is sadly more easily said than done."

Ahh! The secret is to CONTROL the sexuality or else it will control you! The jerk is entirely controlled by it. The Nice Guy recoils from the abuses he sees in the jerk and becomes merely static on the woman's radar.

To be a jerk in control of his sexuality is to cease being 'jerk-like'. For Nature has set up this game of life we all play.

Learn the system and work within it.


No Nice Guy in Animal World

Now we require a farmer.

A farmer appears.

What are the effects of testosterone on animals?

The farmer looks at Pook as if he was crazy.

Yes, the effects.

"Well, one thing with animals is that the female is usually the one more in heat, always searching for sex, than the male. Take female pigs. They go completely beserk."

Go on.

"But it is exactly what that scientist said. Nature dashes some tesosterone to create the male at first. Then, at puberty, Nature floods the male with testosterone. If you neuter the animal before this flood, you will have a great pet."

And if you don't?

"Well, you end up with an unhappy beast. Male pigs must be neutered or the testosterone will flood the body, making its meat worthless. This is why we don't eat bull."

So our animal friends, when testostoronized, are merely to mate? There is no other strength in it?

"That isn't true. If you neuter the dog before he gets testosteronized, he makes a great pet. But he will not make a good sheepdog. It's almost like his will of action gets taken out."

And so is the same with Humans! What do Nice Guys become but human pets for the female? And just as animals use their sexuality for action, for a higher purpose, so do Humans.

 

[ComicChick]

from my perspective, the only girls i've known who have really been interested in jerks, are those who feel like that's all they can get. i know girls who have such low esteem and self-confidence, that any guy who shows interest, even if he's the jerkiest of all, they're estatic.

i also know girls who are so afraid of being single and "alone" that they'll date jerks as well.

i don't get it. maybe it's just me, but jerks aggravate me more than anything. i'd much rather date the guy that will open the door for me instead of the guy that shuts the door in my face anyday

 

[Kritish]

What kind of sick scientist would play "switch the gender" with rats?

That's just wrong.

 

[jaguarr]

Damn double posts.

jag

 

[jaguarr]

There are two things quite clear to me from this article that you seem to be so fond of. The first is that Pook is clearly in love with himself and the sound of his own "voice". The second is that Pook does not have a clear understanding of the function of testosterone in the body, how it effects behavior and mood, and also has some erroneous and distorted ideas about it defining masculinity. It's not nearly as simplistic as he would like it to be; there are many, many factors that go into what makes a man a man. A real man is confident yet considerate and compassionate towards others. A real man is capable of caring about things outside of his own self. A real man isn't a doormat but he isn't a callous, free-wheeling assh0le, either. A real man takes care of and defends his friends and family, and even complete strangers if the situation calls for it. A real man has the drive and determination to accomplish anything he wants without the need to destroy everyone who gets in his way in the process. A real man understands compromise and the value of sacrifice. A real man thinks with more than just his libido. A real man is considerate, punctual and chivalrous. A real man is his own man, not someone else's idea of one. Why this seems to escape so many people while they confuse being a man with being a jerk is inexplicable but offers lots of room for real men to go about their business with little interference from the unwashed masses because they're too confused to view the genuine article as anything but a total alpha male, ironically. Pook doesn't strike me as a real man. No offense, Pook.

jag

 

[Paradoxium]

The Women Agree

Even on this site's discussion of 'Nice Guys versus Jerks', read what some of what the women had to say.

Italics will be the woman. Regular text will be da Pook Man.

First Lady

Alright, I read some of your responses from women and noticed that most of them seemed older.

And probably uglier! It is the pretty chicks we want. Too bad pictures weren't included with their words!

And since a lot of guys who go here seem to be around my age (17), I figured I would put my 2 cents in.

Here it comes...

I don't like the nice guy. To me he's a definite turn off. He seems too timid to pursue intimacy, and personally I love it when a guy is real horny (as long as he's attractive and knows when to stop). It makes me feel a lot more comfortable.

Too timid to pursue intimacy! Perhaps he needs a shot of testosterone? Notice how she loves a guy being horny (just not a
stupid type of horny). She feels COMFROTABLE when the guy is following his nature rather than acting out stupid philosophies.

I'm not saying I like jerks, I like the funny guy who always has something interesting or colorful to say. Normally girls look for someone of their 'niceness quotient' or lower. Feeling like the jerk in the relationship is no fun. Of course, neither is being the '*****' so it's totally up to the chick. Maybe u nice guys should get a bit more bold, not necessarily
'jerk-ish'

Fortune favors the bold.

Second Lady

Women start to see the light in their late twenties. Some men never do.

As women get older, they become less feminine in that they are rapidly aging. Yes, Nice Guys can get girls. All the girls we DON'T want.

My advice to the nice guys whose decency might be hampering their dating success is to widen the pool of women they consider.

Translated: go for uglier/older girls.

A current philosophy among some (male) dating gurus is to never date a woman over 30, as they are too set in their ways, hate men, and are starting to lose their looks anyway. Wrong, wrong, wrong!

Older women have developed depth of character, have learned that "nice guys" are the way to go, and are in their sexual prime. In addition, they know who they are sexually, and are unashamed and unafraid to experiment and to take and give pleasure. Sex with a woman over 35 might be some of the best sex a man will ever have.

Over 35! She can't have many children by then! At that age she is losing her purpose of sexuality.

The problem with dating women under 25, which seems to be the goal for many men of all age groups, is that one will have to contend with the image-seeking behavior of youth. Unless a man is equally shallow and image-driven---and most men over 30 are not---women in their 30s, 40s, and up can be a goldmine of interesting and wonderful experiences.

We know that the young women go for the jerks. But notice how the desexualized male (i.e. Nice Guy) wins with the desexualized female (i.e. women in their 30s and 40s)?


Third Woman

I date only nice guys. Most women want to date a nice guy. But men are being classified into two groups, nice or jerks.

That doesn't cover the subject. People are more complex than that. Neither sex can be grouped into just two groups.

Of course.

The "NICE GUY" is often a man who doesn't have a life. And neither sex is attracted to this type of person. A truly nice guy is hard to find. A true jerk most women don't want. I think we try to make people fit into a category instead of getting to know them. You can't always know what a woman wants based on another woman's choices.

Why not? Women seem to follow the same pattern of going for the jerk.

It is true that the Nice Guy has no life. It is because he lacks the ACTION that the jerk has.

I love a nice guy. To me nothing is sexier than a guy who has the guts to say he really likes me on a first date. And yes I do continue dating him! I must clear one last thing up "Nice guys do FINISH last" and I find that to be very sexy! He is the one I'll see again.

This woman must be fat or old or something.

Fourth Girl

Sorry, but its no more true that women prefer jerks than it is true that men prefer *****es.

The thing is, the nice guys who are with a woman are not out there complaining that women don't like nice guys. The nice guys who are not with a woman will express their loneliness, in a nice way, from time to time. The jerks who are not with a woman never complain about it. They lie and say they do have a woman, or many women, or they don't want a woman. Nice guys don't lie like that.

The jerk is a challenge. The nice guy wants to go on Oprah's show.

The truth is that nice guys are alone from time to time. The truth is that there are plenty of people out there looking for the right one. Keep looking, you will find her.

It is interesting that women are all united in the belief that there is 'one for everyone'. It's as if they are well aware of Nature's invisible hand demanding union.

PS. You are a guy, right, so looks are very important to you? Lets say you think you could not be with less than an "8".

I know huge compromise is not possible, but just try to accept a "7" or a "6" perhaps. Women get a lot better looking TO YOU after you know and love them. Give it a try. If I had a brother and he was a nice guy, the above advice is what I would have given him.

Notice how many of these women are missing the point here. The point is to get the BEAUTIFUL WOMEN. Some of these girl's solutions is to not go for the beautiful ones!

But all the attributes of the jerk they love (the action, the horniness, the unpredictability, the exciting life) are all effects of a testosteronized male.

Fifth Girl

I don't think that women are attracted to jerks, but they are attracted to men that illuminate power. Those type of men(powerful, strong and masculine) are sometimes jerks, which accounts for the confusion.

Finally! A woman links the jerk to masculinity. But it is the effects of testosterone she sees.

The nice guy sometimes is not strong or powerful and that's what turns women off. So in essence, it's not the fact that they are nice, it's that they may be lacking other attractive qualities that out weigh the niceness.

Which the Nice Guys do NOT have or are afraid of (and sterilize themselves with 'nice' philosophies).

Ultimately, I love nice guys that illuminate strength and masculinity. There is no better combination.

It becomes quite simple:

NICE GUY: Male who is scared of his testosterone and seeks to sterilize himself with his niceness.

JERK: A male who merely acts male. He is controlled by his testosterone. This is why he gets into trouble.

GREAT GUY: A guy who can CONTROL his sexuality and acts male WITHOUT getting into trouble.

 

[Kritish]

Did you really expect a high IQ with somebody with the name of Pook?

 

[ComicChick]

this thread reminds me of X2, the conversation between Jean and Logan.

something about girls dont stay with bad guys, they marry the good guys or something

 

[Paradoxium]

Sixth Girl

I got the e-mail about the nice guys vs. jerks. I'm totally for nice guys in a relationship, but when it comes to lusting or dreaming about a guy, it's usually the jerks, b/c most jerks have the nice bodies and have that something that's sexy about them.

Can you not see the pattern emerging? Are we not seeing the Jerk and Nice Guy for what they truly are?

Seventh Girl

I recognized some time ago exactly what I was doing... I was looking for a specific "character," for lack of a better
word. It's epitomized by Judd Nelson in "The Breakfast Club," or by Elvis Presley in "King Creole" for your readers who aren't up on the 80's John Hughes phenomenon. Essentially, they're "bad boys with heart." I've dated guys who are nice - JUST nice, and I get bored after about three dates. "Bad boys" are much more interesting, of course, although it's not a wish of women that these guys are REALLY bad. Misunderstood would be a better word.

Check out the local oldies station for "Leader of the Pack" and you'll get the idea. A guy who's a troublemaker enough to be dangerous and daring and fun and keep life interesting, but who is a real sweetheart underneath. Hell, even when I was in 8th grade, I was much more infatuated with Jason Bateman's character on Silver Spoons (the best friend/next door neighbor who was always causing trouble to get attention from parents he thought didn't care) than Ricky Schroeder's... Ricky was so sweet he was saccharine.

The problem that I've run into, as I'm sure many women have, is that most of these "bad boys" don't seem to have the good hearts we seek. What you see is what you get.

This is because they are CONTROLLED by it. The only way to get both, and be the desire of every woman, is to understand it and CONTROL it.

By the time you realize it, you may have been dating this jerk for a while. When you ditch him, it's "on with the search." For the same damned thing. This is where guys will get the idea that jerks get all the women. They see us in the process of the search. What they need to understand is that we're not looking for some nasty idiot; behind it all is the wish to find that guy who can be trouble to everyone else but nice to us. Just like Judd.

Eighth Girl

Nice guys vs. jerks isn't the real issue here, it is all about confidence. The major difference between nice guys and jerks is this: if a nice guy has the guts to approach a woman who has caught his attention, he is so worried about saying the perfect "nice" thing that he will totally flub it. The "nice" one ends up stumbling away from the object of his desires with his tail caught between his legs ... for those who don't already realize, this is NOT the impression you want to make!

A jerk, on the other hand, appears to have been blessed with ability to approach anyone and say just what's on his mind completely disregarding any of the repercussions. He just does it. I have no clue how he does it. But DAMN, the man who has the confidence to accomplish that has caught my eye for the night whether he wants it or not!

What does this say? She is saying: "Stop trying to say the perfect thing!" This was why I left 'Seduction' behind and gone the Natural route. It is more fun, less headaches, and gets better effects.

Ninth Girl

Don't think women don't like nice guys. There is an initial appeal to a jerk, but it doesn't last long. As long as you don't act desperate and have a little something going for you, believe me, a nice guy CAN finish first - and with the girl of his dreams.

Translated: Treat yourself as the PRIZE to be won.

This does solve a lot of errors but it is not enough. Mastering the secret of the jerk optimizes your sexual appeal.

Tenth Girl

This is from the book (which I am sure many of you have read) called The Fountainhead by Ayn Rand. Ms. Rand's Objectivism was always a bit thorny going down philosophically. (And I know how women are the sexual ones which is strange with the person of Ms. Rand. Yet, Ms. Rand's 'noble hero' is entirely in the sexual realm. Her heroes are her ideal men.)

Objectivism is, in Ms. Rand's words, a 'noble' vision of Man which characters like John Galt as symbols. But Objectivism is more of a style of masculinity than it is a philosophy. Her heroes usually blast philosophical 'niceness' away.

In The Fountainhead, the hero (Roark) is not attractive and said to be even ugly. His rival, (Keating), is the pretty boy. But notice the effect that Roark has on Dominque, the extroadinarily beautiful woman. At the quarry, he does not seduce her. He literally rapes her (as virgin girls are often said to express as fantasy).

At a later party, the people notice Dominque (usually surrounded by desperate guys) show signs of attraction.

"And, my dear," asked Kiki Holcombe, "what did you think of that new one, you know, I saw you talking to him, that Howard Roark?"

"I think," said Dominique firmly, "that he is the most revolting person I've ever met."

"Oh, now, really?"

"Do you care for that sort of unbridled arrogance? I don't know what one could say for him, unless it's that he's terribly
good-looking, if that matters."

"Good-looking!? Are you being funny, Dominique?"

The beautiful woman is attracted to this ugly guy. But why?

"Why, my dear," said kiki, "he's not good-looking at all, but extremely masculine."

Extreme masculinity. This is what the beautiful woman wants.

Now for the males:

First Male

One thing to add on the nice guys V jerks thing: jerks win because in their selfish insensitivity they never hide their raw sexuality. Nice guys in their sensitivity hide their sexuality because they think it will oppress women.

This guy is on the right track.

Women are powerfully attracted to guys who are open with their sexuality, thus the jerks win.

EXACTLY!

Now it is important to realize that being open with your sexuality is not about being a macho wanker, but simply about not denying that you wanna have sex with her. She knows it anyway, and if you don't let the world know it, you're headed right for the friendship zone, which is great if you wanna chat all night only to see her waltz out the door and straight into bed with some ******* who just walked in, but useless if you wanna be the one helping her mess up her sheets.

SO TRUE!

To be open with your sexuality all you gotta do is be yourself knowing that it is fine to feel sexual about her, just don't drool or go straight for the Wanna F**k approach (although even that works about 10% of the time).

When we acted on our desires as AFCS, we got burned. So many of us became desireless (which is not bad for getting the attention of many pretty babes). But male lust turns women on. The problem is not the male lust, it is putting that male lust in ridiculous philosophies such as the 'Nice Guy' way and so on. Realize that there are no ilosophies with dealing with Nature and trust your gut more.

Be nice by all means, in fact I would advocate nothing but niceness, but you gotta combine it with strength and let your sexuality shine through. After all, the difference between you and the jerk is that you are nice, he is sexual, but who does she take home???

Second Male

This is regarding the Nice guy-Jerk controversy. Just want to confirm some of the claims with first-hand experience.

Listen to this one. He describes why even ugly guys get the beautiful babes.

I'm 22, an Aerospace Graduate student and considered myself in the past to be a nice guy, and still a nice guy. Recently, I'm working weekends as a bouncer. (I'm a fully qualified Ju-Jitsu 1st Dan Black Belt, but getting some free sex on the side is part of my agenda too). The truth is I can't keep the women off me. I don't know how many numbers I'm gathering, cause I cant keep track. Why not before when I was a nice-guy and concerned for my female friends?

My reasoning is that the theory of Male Dominance/Machoness or jerkiness is in effect. One girl even spelled it out for me the other night at this club I was working. Her words were something to the effect of: "90% of girls would go out with you because you're the bouncer, but you're also really good looking and sweet," or something like this.

It is STRENGTH women are attracted to. But where does this strength come from? Why do guys love crushing their bodies in the gym or in sports? It is the testosterone.

Well, now that I think about it, she's right. I see fat, ugly, bouncers who just got out of jail picking up girls all the time, whereas they wouldn't stand a chance if they weren't bouncers.... why? Because they're "tough-guys."

And as we see, this also explains why UGLY guys get the beautiful girls. It has nothing to do with confidence; it has everything to do with testosterone. Some guys can be very confidant with debates, with presentations, etc. But get them in front of a woman and they freeze. Whereas some guys cannot do all the former but know EXACTLY what to do when around women.

In my case, I am both very polite and considerate (towards women and men, except on a bad day, when I don't give a f**k).

Seeing this it seems to turn them on. It's the mixed signal theory where women see that you're a 'tough guy' and a 'nice guy' at the same time - the classic Humphrey Bogart thing.

SO the bottom line is: Be tough (or if you're not, look tough and act tough). This isn't to say become a bouncer, because it is not only dangerous and risky, but also very foolish, and not worth it, unless you have the skill. Even then. Personally, I'm a bit of an adrenaline junkie, so I don't mind.

Another tip - flaunt the things you're good at or like to do, or your accomplishments. But don't lie, so that upon confrontation, you're open-jawed. (i.e. I'm a pilot, and I mention this to chicks I date because I love flying and it's a part of me. It's my only hobby. And it's something not all do and so is an attention getter.)

Hope this helps. We all have a lot to learn so don't worry, you'll get there if you try. It's a matter of educating yourself about these things. I believe and I'm far from it, but the 'real Don Juans' (like the movies) have learned many hard lessons and have keenly observed others and the mistakes they make. It's like Aviation. You don't want to be in the NTSB accident report. You want to read it and learn from other's mistakes. Good luck !!

 

[ComicChick]

i started reading those things you posted from Pook, and i'm sorry but i kinda had to quit reading them cuz i was disagreeing with a lot of it.

i've skimmed some of the other stuff you posted to but i'm afraid i' can't bear to read any more.

 

[jaguarr]

Ugh. Stop posting Pook's drivel, please.

jag

 

[ComicChick]

maybe it's just me, but i disagree with so much of that stuff.

it'd be so much better if those were posted in spoiler tags, so viewing would be optional.

 

[Paradoxium]

this thread reminds me of X2, the conversation between Jean and Logan.

something about girls dont stay with bad guys, they marry the good guys or something

...and with today's divorce rate of 50% (note that women are 70% most likely to initiate it) and how courts financially rape guys. I can't say the whole marriage thing is what it is caught up to be.

Oh yea one more Pook post and the pain will be over

 

[Kritish]

Ew, changing rat genders is creepy.

Ugh too many words make my head hurt too.

 

[Paradoxium]

Third Male

Well here is my two cents worth and it's going to piss off most of the chicks and a lot of wimpy men.

Wimpy men! That perfectly describes this guys who are scared of their sexuality, of the effects their testosterone might have on them.

Girls do like jerks, especially the pretty girls (fair or not you fellows know the pretty ones are the ones we want).

PRECISELY!

And these girls can have anyone they want, so they deserve no sympathy when they get treated like dirt. Ladies, please spare me the fecal matter about how you don't know he is a jerk. Guys if you are a shoulder to cry on for these women you are a bunch of damn fools.

Yes!

What I really get tired of hearing is that when women get older they become more attracted to nice guys. This is true only if she has gained 100lbs,has finally divorced the jerk, and has a couple of his kids she needs some sucker to help support.

Exactly!

Even then she will secretly always want him back. It happens to me constantly, and these chicks can go to hell as far as I'm concerned.

It is not that Nice Guys finish last. It is that Nice Guys, when it comes to the woman's lust, do not win at all.

The best seducer I know personally is an alcoholic, ex-convict, pathological liar with a violent temper, who can't hold down a job.

And yet some of you guys are reading seduction material until your eyes hurt! As the scientist said above, high rates of testosterone are found in criminals, in gigantic liars, and such.

Hell, look at how popular Bill Clinton is with women voters. This is why I'm primarily interested in financial success.

To hell with these dumb chicks. Let them marry a turd and live in misery. I'm going to have a nice home, car, and retire comfortably.

Heh. At least he knows what he wants.

If you're nice, she thinks you are a puss, chump and not a real man. It's always been this way and always will be.

Actors, pro athletes, rock stars, and drug dealers are always awash with women, and these guys are known scum.

These guys are also the ones who are rated with the highest testosterone levels. This is the jerk's secret and he doesn't even realize it.

Fourth Male

This male we all know. His name is Jake Steed:

Here are some examples for you. I have a co-worker and friend who is one of the best natural seductionists I've ever met.

He has ****ed more women than any of the guys here could dream of. Yes, he parties, and yes he seduces.

Yes! We all have met them.

He just so happens to be the most brilliant, accomplished person of his position in the company. So how about your theory that seduction "swallows" you up? Don't be rediculous. LIFE is about balance.

And yes! Jake illustrates my point here. The answer is because he does not 'seduce'. He is natural man. Highly testosteronized males, especially if they can control it, rise far in the businessworld.

The difference between Apollonian and Dionysian at its ROOT LEVEL is that Apollonian CONTROLS Nature while Dionysian is CONTROLLED by it. Apollonian is not to cast Nature out to the netherworld or to be a killjoy.

I'll take my example a bit further. I actually showed him this website, and you know what he did? He laughed his ass off.

He couldn't understand how guys like the guys here could devote so much time and energy into discussing women. He doesn't even THINK about what he does. He just does.

THANK YOU JAKE! I have been saying this on and on and on. In the 'Kill the Desperation' thread, when asked about my 'philosophy', I said there was none and you guys got confused. Later, when I said to stop treating love and sexuality like an academic degree (studying books and websites on the subject), you guys got mad at me.

This isn't rocket science, it is women. And the answers are already embedded in your nature.

So where does that leave YOU? This guy is building an amazing career AND ****ing tons and tons of hot ass women--while you and I are here discussing the ****ing path of Apollo VS the path of Dionysis and some guy named Pook who has risen to godlike status on some little known message board. So just WHO's on the Apollo path here?

Don't confuse Apollonian with career success.

Later, RDToo adds:

The thing that is never addressed is the quality of women that you want to get with. I would bet that Ross Jefferies has never had a real quality woman. Women are not as dumb as alot of guys here seem to think, and they learn from experience as well as we do. I know a very quality woman who shoots down all seduction attempts. She says the thing that attracts her is the "quality of character" in a man. I do not think that learning SS is building that kind of characters.

THANK YOU RDTOO! Speed Seduction cannot build character because the focus is (let us say it together): ENTIRELY ON THE
WOMAN.

Gentlemen, when you want beautiful women you are in the big leagues. SS is more concerned with quantity than quality. This
was why I left it behind.

To INCREASE testosterone

No, do not run out and get shots. In our modern world cubicles and style, we are at desks and usually not in a state of action. But there are some easy ways to increase one's testosterone naturally and have the effects of:

-Greater Confidence

-Action

-Boldness

-Strength

No more analyzing

Turn OFF your computer and stop reading and rereading seduction knowledge. The only true benifet of the seduction material was not in the HOWs of getting seduction, it was opening your eyes of how Nature actually works. When I was a Nice Guy and read Tony's Get Laid Guy, it did a number on my head. It smashed all my nice guy 'philosophies'.

Build up the Body

Oddly, working out does seem to have more psychological effects then physical ones. Jerks always usally have nice bodies. Keep in the state of action.

Several of the guys in the 'health and fitness' forum we never hear from in the other forums. WHY? Because they know they don't need philosophies.

Listen to Anthony Ellis of the skinnyguy.net who says:

You have to have that drive and determination, and the change has to come from within. All the exterior things they don't mean much. You want to change the way you see life. You want to change your relationships. You want to make your workplace better. You want to be happier.

But Mr. Ellis, who went from scrawny guy to impressive muscle guy, I have noticed people who discovered that when they can change their bodies, they can change their whole lives. Did you notice that?

I'm definitely more confident. I believe in myself a lot more. I feel I can do other things I would never have thought to do before. I'm not afraid to be out at night, and that's a big deal for me. I enjoy the city so much more. I'm a part of it now.

And doing this is not brain surgery; I didn't save someone's life. But I improved my life, which is very difficult to do.

How many people are trying to lose fat? How many are trying to gain muscle? How many people are trying to get control of their lives? I have, and I feel empowered. I have no doubt any direction I choose to take my life will be successful.

You've kept this up for about a year now. You've got the solid muscle mass, a great physique, a great outlook, but what does long-term success mean to you? Is this going to be part of it?

This is definitely part of my life now. It's a permanent fixture. I may make slight adjustments, but once you go on this trip, there's no return ticket. You don't want to go back. It's like going to Hawaii. You don't want to come back because you have seen the other side. Once you get going, once you get the momentum going, once you start looking better, once you start feeling better, you don't want to stop. You want to keep exercising, to keep looking good and feeling good.

What do you tell people who don't believe this is possible?

When I meet people with that type of attitude people who say, "That's not possible" I tell them, "For you it's not possible because you don't believe it. If you don't believe you can do it, you can't."

I think they need to believe it before it will work for them. When they open their minds, things are going to start happening. Doors are going to start opening. They see the reality of the situation.

It's absolutely 100% necessary to believe you can do it. I mean really believe it deep down inside.

I've come to realize that most of what happens to you is a result of you. It all comes from inside. Everything you do, everything you are, how you handle everything that happens to you is your responsibility. So if you want to change, look inside. When you decide to change from the inside, the outside will fall into place.

For as you think, you shall become. This is why the focus must always remain ON YOU.

Some other things:

Joining a Sport

Every male needs good 'ol competition. Ever notice why the 'jocks' get the girls? Perhaps its because their testosterone levels shoot up or at least appear to?

Eating More

For skinny guys, this is a must. It strengthens the body.

Don't take yourself so seriously

This is for the shy and hesitant guys. You need to get over the fact that the world does not revolve around you. It never has and never will. No one will care if you hit on a chick. No one will care if you make a move on her. Do not rationalize away your desires.

Start doing some of the things the 'awful' jerks do.

Try getting on stage and being some rock star. Your testosterone levels will shoot up. Try acting. Since projection is all, your levels of testosterone will rise. Women will naturally sense it (and also because it will spring off other actions).

A New Start

Let us consider the Nice Guy vs. Jerk debate to be over. The Nice Guy is a male who is afraid or doesn't embrace his
testosterone. The Jerk should be seen as the Testosteronized Male.

What we understand, we have power to use. What we do not understand, it has power to use us.

For we possess the ability to restart our lives over again. Be not scared (by acting nice or relying on mental tricks) to do what your testosterone was put there to make you do.

Be natural = Be Man

 

[ComicChick]

i was gonna go back and quote some of the things i didn't agree with, but there are way to many and i just ended up getting aggravated.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

I'm going to try to make this quick, and easy for C-$ and others who read the Hype for women advice, because we rarely tell you actual advice on here...but I feel this thread has been an exception.

There is one rule to start out on your long road to becoming a "jerk" (by which I don't really mean "jerk" but being confident with women). When you see a woman, don't hesitate to talk to her, if you do absolutely NOTHING ELSE follow this. There is about 3 seconds between when you see and or make eye contact with a woman for you to go talk to her, otherwise you will telegraph your hesitation and therefore appear sheepish. Even if you have nothing to say, approach her...

If you have nothing to say, there is a simple ice-breaking that works 60% of the time every time. That is: (drum roll) "Hi, my name is _____". It is without a doubt the most common pick up line and ice breaker being used today, yesterday and into the future.

If you want to be suave, as the kiddies these days say, then don't introduce yourself...ask her name, with-holding all information about yourself.

The next step is idle conversation: again real easy. If you have nothing to say stick to the basics. Where are you from? What do you do? What do you think of (this place we are in)? Do not (because my friend did this once) say "I see you around a lot" (even if you do), it sounds stalkerish.

If you want something slightly more engaging I use the "problem or question only they can answer" ice-breaker. One of my favorites is "I cannot get this bartenders attention, perhaps you could"....then after she flags him down and turns back towards me I say "Hi, my name is____". Then I ask her "How'd you get the bartenders attention like that?"....almost immediately she'll make some reference to her breasts, which is always priceless (I once said "I gotta get me some of those then" and in response she said "well maybe you will "). However I've used others like fake stories that need "a woman's opinion". Pretty much anything that isn't a) b*tching about your day/problems or b) abso-f***ing-lutely boring will work. Oh, and avoid bragging about yourself, or telling a onsided story that she cannot participate in, because girls/woman/and ladies like talking about themselves much like other people.

Once they get off on a tangent about something, let it ride. If they ask you how you feel about this generally you should agree with them...and never ever be critical or over analyzing, you aren't important enough to them to do that yet. Listen, or pretend to listen, but listening is far better. Try to find out what it is they want from a guy, even if you have to ask that direct question "what do you look for in a guy"...then try to show her you have those values, either by finding things you have in common or making side comments that indicate things about your life (for example: This guy I know from the gym was totally like that).

Try not to directly talk about yourself, at least not in an arrogant fashion; the point is to keep some mystery about yourself and not to give away too much information. Keep her guessing. I sometimes insert a "joke job" when she asks me what I do...give vague answers about where I live (so maybe I'll just say what state if I'm at College)...etc.

If the girl is not your type, walk away...there is no point trying to think of ways to elicit values or make stuff you don't have appear to be things you do.

Oh and make eye contact, and SMILE.

 

[ComicChick]

...and with today's divorce rate of 50% (note that women are 70% most likely to initiate it) and how courts financially rape guys. I can't say the whole marriage thing is what it is caught up to be.

Oh yea one more Pook post and the pain will be over

i think marriage is a great thing, but i also think it's been tainted and ruined by society.

when I get married, I only plan on doing it once. I want to marry for life, not for a little while. I want a marriage like my grandparents have; 61 years strong, still loving each other.

call me old fashioned, but i don't care. most people do anyways lol

 

[Kritish]

i think marriage is a great thing, but i also think it's been tainted and ruined by society.

when I get married, I only plan on doing it once. I want to marry for life, not for a little while. I want a marriage like my grandparents have; 61 years strong, still loving each other.

call me old fashioned, but i don't care. most people do anyways lol

People change, I'm sure if you look back five years you'll see that you're a different person than you were back then. I can for sure say I am.

Sometimes you can wake up and realize you have nothing in common with your spouse, lover or butt buddy. Divorces don't have to end in angry bitter fight.

 

[Paradoxium]

There are two things quite clear to me from this article that you seem to be so fond of. The first is that Pook is clearly in love with himself and the sound of his own "voice". The second is that Pook does not have a clear understanding of the function of testosterone in the body, how it effects behavior and mood, and also has some erroneous and distorted ideas about it defining masculinity.

It's not nearly as simplistic as he would like it to be; there are many, many factors that go into what makes a man a man. A real man is confident yet considerate and compassionate towards others. A real man is capable of caring about things outside of his own self. A real man isn't a doormat but he isn't a callous, free-wheeling assh0le, either. A real man takes care of and defends his friends and family, and even complete strangers if the situation calls for it. A real man has the drive and determination to accomplish anything he wants without the need to destroy everyone who gets in his way in the process. A real man understands compromise and the value of sacrifice. A real man thinks with more than just his libido. A real man is considerate, punctual and chivalrous. A real man is his own man, not someone else's idea of one. Why this seems to escape so many people while they confuse being a man with being a jerk is inexplicable but offers lots of room for real men to go about their business with little interference from the unwashed masses because they're too confused to view the genuine article as anything but a total alpha male, ironically. Pook doesn't strike me as a real man. No offense, Pook.

jag

Ignoring Pook's eccentric prose. I think he makes a similar point as you. If you read through his stuff, he was bashing pickup artists and jerk imitators. His point is to be your own man, find your own definition and drives. Adding a healthy dose of testosterone (naturally from workouts and diets) is one of those fundamental pillars. That's my cliffs notes on it.

 

[Asteroid-Man]

Paradoxium, you are the Hitch of SHH!

 

[ComicChick]

People change, I'm sure if you look back five years you'll see that you're a different person than you were back then. I can for sure say I am.

Sometimes you can wake up and realize you have nothing in common with your spouse, lover or butt buddy. Divorces don't have to end in angry bitter fight.

i can agree with that, 5 yrs ago i was 16 and i was... definitely different than i am now.

i meant it more along the lines of people seem to rush into marriages and such these days.

for instance, one of my friends broke up with a guy in june, started dating a guy from our work around the end of july, broke up with him the first week of september and started dating another guy mid to late september. she'd met him like 2 days earlier.

they married early december and are already having a lot of problems. i think when people rush into things like this, divorce rates are much higher.

 

[Asteroid-Man]

not to mention dating someone is different then being with them your whole life