Why Does Wolverine get a pass but the Punisher Doesn't?

[Ipodman]

I always assumed "Future" stories are but the writer's wild imagination....
only one i like is The Dark Knight Returns....

 

[SuperFerret]

I always assumed "Future" stories are but the writer's wild imagination....
only one i like is The Dark Knight Returns....

And the canon stories have nothing to do with any form of wild imaginings?

 

[Fantasyartist]

Wolverine at least has the excuse of acting within his nature- whereas the Punisher uses the murder of his family to kill criminals indiscriminately!

Terry

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Wolverine's 'nature' arose from traumas of his own throughout his life, so there's no difference there, really.

 

[chamber-music]

Well yea that's I think it comes down to.

If Frank was more involved in the MU I think his popularity would rise too. In his first issue of his new Dark Reign series he almost took Osborne out. He needs to do more things like that.

But then it's a double edged sword really. Would his fans like him becoming more involved in the MU as a whole? Becoming more "commercialized" for lack of a better term? I don't think they would.

I think its just because in the Max books punisher could do pretty much what he wanted there wasn't the boundraries as in the usual 616. Too many Punisher stories in the 616 was him showing up and every superhero saying what a jerk he is for killing people and thats it.

I like how he was used in the Dark Reign book you mentioned. The punisher would work in the 616 if his a rogue/loose cannon and not try and turn him into an out and out superhero who kills every now and again.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Yea he should still remain the killer he is. The Frank Castle we know, hunting the mob or whatever. But maybe targeting bigger threats as well every now and then. Like actual supervillains.

Would get him a little more exposure to the MU as a whole, but he wouldn't necessarily have to be commercialized or watered down.

 

[chamber-music]

might go a bit The Punisher Kills the Marvel Universe. The punisher should go after the hood or something.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Yea why not?

I know what a great throw down would be...Bullseye vs Punisher.

Or has that already happened?

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Bullseye vs. the Punisher wouldn't work for me because neither would wind up dead. If I see two major killers fight and neither actually kills the other, I'm left wondering what the point was.

Yea he should still remain the killer he is. The Frank Castle we know, hunting the mob or whatever. But maybe targeting bigger threats as well every now and then. Like actual supervillains.

Would get him a little more exposure to the MU as a whole, but he wouldn't necessarily have to be commercialized or watered down.

That's what they did in Fraction's Punisher run. He was literally just hunting down and killing (C-list, of course) supervillains in each arc. He blew up a whole bar full of them in one issue.

 

[Shockdingo]

In Bullseye's mini from years back, he and Frank did meet up. I have got to say, I'm loving the new direction for the current 616 books; him adopting villain tech to help level the playing field is a stroke of brilliance.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Bullseye vs. the Punisher wouldn't work for me because neither would wind up dead. If I see two major killers fight and neither actually kills the other, I'm left wondering what the point was.

Good point actually. And I don't particularly want either of them killed off.

That's what they did in Fraction's Punisher run. He was literally just hunting down and killing (C-list, of course) supervillains in each arc. He blew up a whole bar full of them in one issue.

HAHA that sounds sick. I like Matt Fraction, what issues was his run?

In Bullseye's mini from years back, he and Frank did meet up. I have got to say, I'm loving the new direction for the current 616 books; him adopting villain tech to help level the playing field is a stroke of brilliance.

Oh yea in Nicaragua in Greatest Hits right? I remember that.

Yea in Suicide Kings he was using a modified Doc Ock tenticle and Whiplash whip. Pretty cool.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Fraction wrote the recent Punisher War Journal for pretty much the whole run, I think. From Civil War to Secret Invasion, after which they canceled it and launched a new Punisher book.

 

[ChelseaGrin26]

I love the Punisher. I think he taps into those feelings alot of us have about the failings of the justice system. Everytime I hear about someone raping a woman or killing a child I think to myself, is it really wrong if I were just to cap them in the head and be done with it?

 

[Shockdingo]

I love the Punisher. I think he taps into those feelings alot of us have about the failings of the justice system. Everytime I hear about someone raping a woman or killing a child I think to myself, is it really wrong if I were just to cap them in the head and be done with it?

I'm with you on this, that's why he's one of my favorite characters, he's not "Sweeet! Dude with guns killing dudes medieval! Whoo 90's extreeeeme" to me t: When I was a kid, I dreamed of being a cop, then a superhero and such, but as I got older I found it wasn't ever going to happen, later as I would watch the news more and more, I would hear of cases where just something little would allow a criminal to get off scott free or even getting some pathetic slap on the wrist probation for a child molester. It just made me mad and disgusted, and it still goes on. For me, I look at the Punisher and think that he is that dark side of many of us; what if we were pushed too far, what if we were just sick and tired of the occasional swing of the pendulum that goes in the criminal's favor instead of the victim's? I dunno, I'm just rambling, heh, just my $0.02.

 

[Sinister-DNA]

Hmm,These last few posters have changed the subject.I personally think Wolverine is the best character in marvel comics.But Marvel Have Toned down the Tough attitude that is classic Wolverine.That's what I don't like.Yes,he is a good guy,but; who says you can't be a good guy and still be a mean SOB?As far as who has killed more PPL;The HELL if I know;but I have NO DOUBT That IF THE RULES OF "THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE"(BETWEEN WOLVERINE AND THE PUNISHER) OL' FRANK WILL FINALLY GET HIS WISH OF BEING WITH HIS WIFE AND KID.SNIK SNIK

 

[Anubis]

Oh, you're just the worst kind of poster.

 

[The Question]

I love the Punisher. I think he taps into those feelings alot of us have about the failings of the justice system. Everytime I hear about someone raping a woman or killing a child I think to myself, is it really wrong if I were just to cap them in the head and be done with it?

I grow tired of the character because of that. When he's used to show how self destructive things like revenge are, he's fine. But some writers use him to glorify what I think is the most harmful philosophy in the world: That anything gets resolved or gets better when man's inhumanity towards man is responded to with more of it.

 

[Dread]

That's what they did in Fraction's Punisher run. He was literally just hunting down and killing (C-list, of course) supervillains in each arc. He blew up a whole bar full of them in one issue.

First he killed the Stilt-Man (albeit the second one, not Wilber Day, who retired), then poisoned a bar full of various villains and then blew it up during the funeral. Of course the villains who Marvel wanted to live survived and merely had their stomachs pumped. Others either are presumed to have died or it is unknown.

Grizzly and Princess Python were supposed to be among the more mutilated criminals from that act, but Grizzly has wound up fine in MARVEL APES and the Princess has apparently regained her eyesight and her ill gotten fortune in DARK REIGN: AVENGERS. So you could say that Punisher probably has a better success rate against human mobsters than he does against "super-villains".

But, the point remains; Wolverine and Punisher are astonishingly similar, although Wolverine is cut more of a free pass among superheroes and even the law than Castle is, who is always a wanted fugitive. Of course this is all due to their franchise expectations. Punisher is more "real world" without powers and so being on the run adds to that. Wolverine is more in the super-hero mold (even when he arguably shouldn't be) and thus has to be more welcomed there. Still, it would make for some interesting stories if this wasn't always the case. As mentioned before, what WOULD happen if the surviving Loners figured out or were told that Wolverine murdered their friend? Would they believe his "I was brainwashed" story, or would they want revenge? It would at least be worth a $4 one shot by C.B. Cebulski. Call it WOLVERINE: RANDOM and it would still sell like 40,000 copies.

(Personally, I always thought that much as real life criminal defenses have certain slang coded defenses, like "Insanity Defense" or "Playing the Race Card", I imagine Marvel should have a term called "The Brainwashed Defense" or even "The Skrull Defense". Any criminal could claim they had been psychically or chemically possessed by some villain like Mentallo, Mesmero, Corrupter, Controller, et al. or they were impersonated by a Skrull or Mystique or even Chameleon or a robot and possibly get off due to reasonable doubt. Prosecutors might have to hire "superhuman CSI's" to disprove this stuff. It could be very interesting, like a SHE-HULK taken seriously.)

Wolverine also sells better than Punisher, and has had a better movie history.

 

[The Question]

Do ya'll remember when Wolverine was, like, a practicing buddhist or some such and actually tried to not be a heartless killing machine? I miss when he didn't suck. He was awesome when he didn't suck.

 

[Dread]

I agree. What originally drew me to Wolverine when I was young was that whole struggle, that he wanted to be a better man but his situations or his enemies wouldn't let him. He would try to fight the rage, try to a "samurai". But as he grew more popular and as violence went from taboo to selling point in comics, he abandoned that crusade, and IMO became more one note. But that's just my take.

The best summary of Wolverine I've ever read still comes from some random poster at WIZARDWORLD in 2000-2001 and I wish I could remember his handle and quote him properly. "I used to love Wolverine; he was such a great character. But then he became popular, and it ruined him." While he was already popular when I was coming of age, I tend to agree.

Punisher, you could say, is Wolverine only without the powers, less of the positive moments and influences, and without the perks. Or at least that is how both stand now. OLD MAN LOGAN could have been OLD MAN CASTLE with fewer rewrites than one would think.

 

[Tron Bonne]

I grow tired of the character because of that. When he's used to show how self destructive things like revenge are, he's fine. But some writers use him to glorify what I think is the most harmful philosophy in the world: That anything gets resolved or gets better when man's inhumanity towards man is responded to with more of it.

This...this is the purest of all winning statements

 

[Anubis]

Yeah, but Punisher doesn't really show that. It's just a story about a guy who kills people, who happen to be criminals. He takes down a white slavery ring, he doesn't stop white slavery, he just killed a whole bunch of people who happened to have had a white slavery ring. The best Punisher stories are the ones that take into account that, he's not a guy who punishes the guilty because it's the right thing to do, or because he wants to Cry for Justice. Oh no, far from it. You see, he does it because that's just what he does.....and thank God that what he does isn't killing Women, or Children, or guys named Steve.

 

[The Question]

Yeah, but Punisher doesn't really show that. It's just a story about a guy who kills people, who happen to be criminals. He takes down a white slavery ring, he doesn't stop white slavery, he just killed a whole bunch of people who happened to have had a white slavery ring. The best Punisher stories are the ones that take into account that, he's not a guy who punishes the guilty because it's the right thing to do, or because he wants to Cry for Justice. Oh no, far from it. You see, he does it because that's just what he does.....and thank God that what he does isn't killing Women, or Children, or guys named Steve.

Sometimes it does. At least in the sense that "the world is a better place is you murder bad people." I believe it was said in Ennis' Punisher series that a vast majority of the cops in New York don't even try to catch Frank because they actually respect what he does.

 

[SuperFerret]

.....and thank God that what he does isn't killing Women, or Children, or guys named Steve.

And I'm grateful for that.

 

[Anubis]

Sometimes it does. At least in the sense that "the world is a better place is you murder bad people." I believe it was said in Ennis' Punisher series that a vast majority of the cops in New York don't even try to catch Frank because they actually respect what he does.

That was really more of a dis to cops than a complement for the Punisher really.