Why the hate for Wolverine?

[Mike059jig]

And, for the record, I never believed that Jean didn't want Wolvie. She was powerfully attracted to him. She was obligated by her engagement to Scott to remain faithful to him, which she does because she is a morally upstanding person. Her choosing of Scott doesn't necessarily prove anything. I think she was falling hard and fast for Wolverine, which is why she had to slam on the brakes when he was kissing her outside the X-jet. It's not so much that a person says "no"; it's the way they say "no". Jean's not saying, "Ugh! Get away from me! What were you thinking? I can't stand you!", she's saying,

I thank the movie for making scott the third wheel rather than Logan.LOL....she turned away cause it was wrong and not the right thing to do simple as that and nothing else....you got the attraction right but keep singling out the other half the the equation..she was falling for logan....how about logan was fallen for her like scott did? huh...they both fell for jean and jean only choses one....falling for logan hard yet she can kiss scott right when logans their.....Logan is fallin for jean hard its all over X3 if you missed it!!!..and she wanted to die

Please, please go away from me because you are tempting me almost beyond what I can bear, and I'm about to lose my self-control at anymoment."

Wow is that how you interpreted the scene.....what a total exaggeration....she easily walked away from him...Don't me do this(Make her choice)..This..walks away..and that triangle was closed off right there

 

[Kurosawa]

I'm not gonna go into all the details of why Wolverine is my most hated character of all time in any form of fiction , because I've stated them many, many times. But suffice it to say that X3 and what was done to Cyclops and the Dark Phoenix Saga alone justifies any hatred I have of the Wolverine character and everything that surrounds him.

 

[ntcrawler]

Wow is that how you interpreted the scene.....what a total exaggeration....she easily walked away from him...Don't me do this(Make her choice)..This..walks away..and that triangle was closed off right there

Yes, quite right! Talk about fishing for things that aren't there. Jean really didn't have much of a dilemna or conflict walking away from Logan, did she? seems like her mind was clear and very easily made up and there was no hesitation. And no she didn't stick with Scott just because she was too nice and proper to leave him either. I'd like to think that her being with Scott was hardly self-inflicted punishment in the first place. The fact that they are together in the first place, the fact that Jean would be drawn to someone 7 years her junior really shows that there's something to the guy to appeal to her and make even someone like Jean give him her heart and soul.

I see the problem now. The concept behind their relationship is known as "true, romantic love". The fact that it's so rare in today's world is probably why people don't recognize it and consider it boring, instead prefering flings and passionate affairs with bad boys.

 

[Loganbabe]

Yes, quite right! Talk about fishing for things that aren't there. Jean really didn't have much of a dilemna or conflict walking away from Logan, did she? seems like her mind was clear and very easily made up and there was no hesitation.

There was hesitation. It was clear on his face, and it was even much more clear for those who read the novelization. I´ve posted the "kiss scene" from the book here, you know, and it´s clear as a summer sky that Jean hesitated.
Is that so hard to admit that, even though she loved Scott, she was deeply attracted to Logan? And skip the "She was a compassionate person and her only feeling toward him was pity" excuses, please.

I see the problem now. The concept behind their relationship is known as "true, romantic love". The fact that it's so rare in today's world is probably why people don't recognize it and consider it boring, instead prefering flings and passionate affairs with bad boys.

Moralistic much? Why can´t "bad boys" love as much or even more than the so-called "good guys"?
One of Logan´s greatest scenes in X2 was when he told Jean "I could be the good guy". We could feel that he wasn´t exactly comfortable with the idea of being the good guy, the one who "sticks around", but he was prepared to change. Because of her.
That´s romanticism, my friend.
I´ve always perceived Logan as a very romantic character. Not "lovey-dovey", but passionate, determinated. It´s my kind of "true, romantic love".

 

[LastSunrise1981]

Exactly my words undomiel, thank you!
I have to say, when it comes to defending Logan around here, it´s always a pleasure reading yours and danoyse´s posts. It goes totally against the general notion on some boards - and here too - that Wolverine fans are illiterate, agressive and blind loyalists who are only posting because they feel "superior" or something like that scorning poor Cyke and his fans. Actually, it was from Cyke´s fans themselves that I have seen (and received) the majority of insults around here. You two have always been a class act.

What were the first words out of Jean's mouth when he came up to her?

"I LOVE him"(Meaning Scott)

That was the hint right there that she doesn't love Logan and he enforced the first kiss on her. Personally I think Logan Babe, Danoyse, X-Maniac, and Weatherwitch just don't know nor do they comics.

Even in the comics and animated series Jean never was attracted to Logan and I don't think in the movies it was really attraction. I think she liked that he was honorable, realistic, and honest, but never was there any kind of attraction that made her tempted to be with him.

I think with any character there's a chance of overexposure. I don't think anyone outright hates Wolverine. I think fans would recognize that he's an interesting character with a unique backstory. But when there's three films of nothing but Wolverine, I think, except for the fangirls and girls who have unrealistic dreams of being with him, everyone eventually grows tired of a particular character and wants to see something new.

We get upset and we're bitter because we waited three years for this film and received a half finished job. We(the fans) received a film that was rushed, ruined by politics, and deviated too much from the actual source material.

What upsets me is that you have people like Weatherwitch, Logan Babe, and X-Maniac who for some odd reason can't understand why a lot of fans dislike this movie. Yet, these are the same ones who don't know who Cyclops, Gambit, or even Colossus is. Anytime you have a supposed "fan" who says, "Who's Gambit?" or "I don't remember Cyclops", there's a problem that needs to be addressed.

In X1/X2 those were accurate depictions of Logan. He was honorable, man of few words, willing to use deadly force, and so on and so forth. In X3 he became too soft, too obsessive over a woman who didn't love him, and wasn't honorable. Comic book/TAS universe Logan wouldn't have lusted for Jean the way he did in X3 after noticing Scott's glasses at the lake.

But I don't hate Logan. I don't hate Storm. I don't hate Hugh, Halle, or even the fanbase who doesn't know or respect the comics. I hate Rothman, Ratner, Kinberg, and Penn for ruining what could've been the trilogy of all trilogies.

Just because Wolverine is popular doesn't mean that you have to shove him down anyones throats. There's a way to maintain popularity, but not force him to the front either. Imagine if Peter Jackson gave in to the popularity of Legolas and decided to make him destroy the Ring instead of Frodo? It wouldn't have worked.

You say Batman Begins, X1/X2 Lord of the Rings, Sin City, Blade, V For Vendetta, Spider-Man 1 and 2, and so on had their detractors and you're correct. But the majority of the detractors are the nitpicky fanboys/fangirls who wanted cheesy one-liners, loads of action, and colorful costumes in the movie.

But the hardcore fans like myself and others enjoyed the films for what they represented. I don't know of many hardcore X-Men fans who really LOVED X3. I'm sure there are some on this board, but you find more who disliked it or found it average than loving it. The mainstream audience did love X3, but it got trounced by a romantic comedy in the end, so the public didn't find it to be very rewatchable either.

But it made its money and is a high grossing movie. But I said it once and I'll say it again, it catered more to the ADD non-fan audience and loyalists who will accept anything even if it is a rushed or half finished job. X3, in my opinion, is what you should never do to a comic book movie. Especially as one as tragic, dark, emotional, and powerful as the Phoenix Saga.

Logan's remark, "Well, I could be the good guy" was more of a sarcastic remark. Logan knows he can never truly be a "good guy" to an extent. He has a lot of blood, darkness, and sorrow on his hands, so more or less he wasn't saying he wanted to change but he was just being funny and sarcastic.

Again, Logan babe, your knowledge of the comics and the history is really showing here. I suggest that you, Weatherwitch, and X-Maniac actually pick some X-Men comics, pick up some tapes of the Animated Series, and read, watch, listen, and learn in order to educate yourselves because the knowledge you are lacking is very evident when it comes to creative storytelling and emotional plot points.

Logan and Jean are not true love.

Scott and Jean are what true love is all about. That even through the storms, tragedy, and darkness they overcome it with their passion for one another. That's something Jean/Logan will never, ever have nor did it ever happen in the comics.

 

[X-Maniac]

What upsets me is that you have people like Weatherwitch, Logan Babe, and X-Maniac who for some odd reason can't understand why a lot of fans dislike this movie. Yet, these are the same ones who don't know who Cyclops, Gambit, or even Colossus is. Anytime you have a supposed "fan" who says, "Who's Gambit?" or "I don't remember Cyclops", there's a problem that needs to be addressed.

I do wish you'd stop making incorrect assumptions about me, simply because I enjoyed X3. I don't have ADD, I have been reading the comics for 30 years, and I know full well who Cyclops, Gambit and Colossus are. I have no problems that need addressing and am not a loyalist. I am an X-Men fan, pure and simple, with no allegiance to Singer, Ratner, Fox, or anyone or anything else X-related. I can find faults in X3 just as I can in X1 and X2. But the fact that I enjoyed X3 does not mean you can get all high and mighty. I'm getting rather tired of your condescending attitude. To assume that all those who enjoyed X3 are inferior or wrong reflects more on your preposterous ego than on those people.

But the hardcore fans like myself and others enjoyed the films for what they represented. I don't know of many hardcore X-Men fans who really LOVED X3. I'm sure there are some on this board, but you find more who disliked it or found it average than loving it. The mainstream audience did love X3, but it got trounced by a romantic comedy in the end, so the public didn't find it to be very rewatchable either.

Therein lies your problem - being a 'hardcore fan', utterly inflexible and immersed in a fantasy realm. I've only heard bad words said against X3 on here. Yes, X3 did change things from the comics, but you should have been used to that from the beginning of the first X-movie when Rogue became a terrified teenager and Jean's dramatic 'transformation' into Phoenix is conveyed by a 'blink-and-you-missed-it' facial expression at the end of X1. This was always a different X-world, another continuity where politics and studio demands have more influence than creativity. The issue is whether the changes work within the movie itself, not compared with the comics or with the previous two movies. I felt they did. And all three movies do flow together. I wanted more Phoenix (firebird, more 'goodness'), I wanted more Cyclops (no death, bigger role)... but it doesn't mean I cannot appreciate X3 as a cinematic experience, an X-Men story that works in its own way. Yes, there were flaws, as in the previous X-movies, as in all comicbook movies (see the SR forums for massive evidence), and as in all movies of all kinds.

But it made its money and is a high grossing movie. But I said it once and I'll say it again, it catered more to the ADD non-fan audience and loyalists who will accept anything even if it is a rushed or half finished job. X3, in my opinion, is what you should never do to a comic book movie. Especially as one as tragic, dark, emotional, and powerful as the Phoenix Saga.

It catered to all kinds of audiences, except the inflexible hardcore fans like yourself who have an overly purist attitude. X3 could certainly have been improved in places, for sure - I don't think anyone is arguing that. But it delivered a good piece of action adventure that is reflected in its box office takings.

 

[CapBeerCino]

Wow is that how you interpreted the scene.....what a total exaggeration....she easily walked away from him...Don't me do this(Make her choice)..This..walks away..and that triangle was closed off right there

I wish Scott would've find out about Logan kissing Jean and finaly give us the Cyclops vs. Wolverine fight that is so badly needed. Instead we got that "Scotty bear" scene and then he dies.

 

[Mike059jig]

it was even much more clear for those who read the novelization. I´ve posted the "kiss scene" from the book here, you know, and it´s clear as a summer sky that Jean hesitated.
Is that so hard to admit that, even though she loved Scott, she was deeply attracted to Logan? And skip the "She was a compassionate person and her only feeling toward him was pity" excuses, please.

The novelization by Chris Claremont right...The guy who brought up the Love triangle right....who wanted to flesh out Wolverine character at the expense of Cyclops....the one who last time I check in 1999 0r 2000 wanted to heat up logan and jean up....Marvel's answer:NO...so guess where he got his chance to heat them up .......deeply I wanna see where Jean Lunged after logan..I know Logan Lunge's after her

 

[danoyse]

I do wish you'd stop making incorrect assumptions about me, simply because I enjoyed X3. I don't have ADD, I have been reading the comics for 30 years, and I know full well who Cyclops, Gambit and Colossus are. I have no problems that need addressing and am not a loyalist. I am an X-Men fan, pure and simple, with no allegiance to Singer, Ratner, Fox, or anyone or anything else X-related. I can find faults in X3 just as I can in X1 and X2. But the fact that I enjoyed X3 does not mean you can get all high and mighty. I'm getting rather tired of your condescending attitude. To assume that all those who enjoyed X3 are inferior or wrong reflects more on your preposterous ego than on those people.

Therein lies your problem - being a 'hardcore fan', utterly inflexible and immersed in a fantasy realm. I've only heard bad words said against X3 on here. Yes, X3 did change things from the comics, but you should have been used to that from the beginning of the first X-movie when Rogue became a terrified teenager and Jean's dramatic 'transformation' into Phoenix is conveyed by a 'blink-and-you-missed-it' facial expression at the end of X1. This was always a different X-world, another continuity where politics and studio demands have more influence than creativity. The issue is whether the changes work within the movie itself, not compared with the comics or with the previous two movies. I felt they did. And all three movies do flow together. I wanted more Phoenix (firebird, more 'goodness'), I wanted more Cyclops (no death, bigger role)... but it doesn't mean I cannot appreciate X3 as a cinematic experience, an X-Men story that works in its own way. Yes, there were flaws, as in the previous X-movies, as in all comicbook movies (see the SR forums for massive evidence), and as in all movies of all kinds.

It catered to all kinds of audiences, except the inflexible hardcore fans like yourself who have an overly purist attitude. X3 could certainly have been improved in places, for sure - I don't think anyone is arguing that. But it delivered a good piece of action adventure that is reflected in its box office takings.

Completely agree.

Everything depends on how much comics history you brought in with you walking into that first movie. Me? I had none. I've caught up on both the comics and animated series since (and really enjoy them), but I can still watch the movies in the universe that story started in, and still cleary see a different relationship that doesn't fly in the face of things that I've read. It's just a different telling.

 

[undomiel]

Exactly my words undomiel, thank you!
I have to say, when it comes to defending Logan around here, it´s always a pleasure reading yours and danoyse´s posts. It goes totally against the general notion on some boards - and here too - that Wolverine fans are illiterate, agressive and blind loyalists who are only posting because they feel "superior" or something like that scorning poor Cyke and his fans. Actually, it was from Cyke´s fans themselves that I have seen (and received) the majority of insults around here. You two have always been a class act.

Hey, thanks! It gets pretty insane on these boards sometimes; it's nice to know there are others who see it the way I do. It's also a great to be able to see us pick up for where each us had to leave off. It's like being part of a little tag team! lol

And I know exactly what you're talking about. I really want the Cyke fans to understand I'm not putting him down -- that's never been my intention. Rather, I desire to defend Wolvie from what I consider to be false criticism, and I like to explain why it is I see things the way I do. Good discussion and lively debate can be really fun, but not when it degenerates into name-calling and the use of nasty language.

 

[undomiel]

Completely agree.

Everything depends on how much comics history you brought in with you walking into that first movie. Me? I had none. I've caught up on both the comics and animated series since (and really enjoy them), but I can still watch the movies in the universe that story started in, and still cleary see a different relationship that doesn't fly in the face of things that I've read. It's just a different telling.

I have to say, you simply rock! Loved your arguments on the previous page. And for a series as diverse and complex as X-Men, I think it is a little silly to get so upset over a different telling of the story in the movies. I mean, aren't there even alternate realities in the comics? Then I say, why not in the movies?

 

[danoyse]

Exactly my words undomiel, thank you!
I have to say, when it comes to defending Logan around here, it´s always a pleasure reading yours and danoyse´s posts. It goes totally against the general notion on some boards - and here too - that Wolverine fans are illiterate, agressive and blind loyalists who are only posting because they feel "superior" or something like that scorning poor Cyke and his fans. Actually, it was from Cyke´s fans themselves that I have seen (and received) the majority of insults around here. You two have always been a class act.

And thanks from me too! I always enjoy reading your posts as well.

I love coming here to talk about the movie (pros and cons), the characters, future spinoffs, etc. Especially for me, since I'm still relatively new to the comics...I usually learn a lot here. But it just seems like all we do anymore is defend ourselves for liking a character more, and being accused of not having a clue for the reasons we do.

It's nice to know we're not all the big bad fans some make us out to be. I think we can all agree to disagree about things and still act like adults about it.

 

[danoyse]

I have to say, you simply rock! Loved your arguments on the previous page. And for a series as diverse and complex as X-Men, I think it is a little silly to get so upset over a different telling of the story in the movies. I mean, aren't there even alternate realities in the comics? Then I say, why not in the movies?

Aw, thanks too! And the same to you...you have one of the most thorough perspectives on the whole Jean/Logan/Cyke relationship that I've read on here.

I think it's the same with any adaptation. I'm a big Harry Potter fan--I've read all 6 books multiple times, and I'm reading the UK versions now. I have no idea what people are complaining about when they talk about plotholes in the movies, then I remember, "Oh yeah, you don't read the books..."

My favorite Stephen King book is "Salem's Lot" but I hated both movie versions. I want to slug someone when they say the love the movie. But they can like the movie if they want to.

I was never a big comics fan before I saw X1...that was finally the movie that got me reading comics as well. It's different, but that happens with books and plays when they're made into movies as well. I can appreciate them both. I've learned a ton more about the comics just from reading these boards.

And I think most people realize that too, it's just that extreme who won't let anyone else like it. But I think there are more of us then there are of them.

 

[LastSunrise1981]

How cute, Wolverine fans agreeing with each other. Too bad you still don't know anything about the comics nor do you respect history.

But hey, I feel better knowing that in the end Spider-Man 3 will show all the Wolverine, Fox, and Rothman loyalists how to close a trilogy the right way.

The best revenge will be seeing Wolverine's spin-off movie flop at the box office. When it happens, I'll laugh in your face and tell you "I told you so."

 

[Jan Irisi]

How cute, Wolverine fans agreeing with each other. Too bad you still don't know anything about the comics nor do you respect history.

But hey, I feel better knowing that in the end Spider-Man 3 will show all the Wolverine, Fox, and Rothman loyalists how to close a trilogy the right way.

The best revenge will be seeing Wolverine's spin-off movie flop at the box office. When it happens, I'll laugh in your face and tell you "I told you so."

Have you actually read anything they've posted? Why so mean? Why so nasty? Why are you putting them, or anyone, down?

Revenge? For what? That's really harsh, don't you think?

Revenge???? An eye for an eye?

 

[undomiel]

What were the first words out of Jean's mouth when he came up to her?

"I LOVE him"(Meaning Scott)

That was the hint right there that she doesn't love Logan and he enforced the first kiss on her.

Ah, yes, she says she loves Scott but she never, ever says that she doesn't love Logan! And he may have forced the first kiss on her, but she sure did kiss him back for a little bit!

We get upset and we're bitter because we waited three years for this film and received a half finished job. We(the fans) received a film that was rushed, ruined by politics, and deviated too much from the actual source material.

What upsets me is that you have people like Weatherwitch, Logan Babe, and X-Maniac who for some odd reason can't understand why a lot of fans dislike this movie.

Hey, I never said X3 was a perfect movie. I was disappointed in a lot of things, too -- I really thought it was rushed and could have been much better if they'd taken more time. But I really did like the tragic love story between Wolverine and Jean -- I felt that coming a mile away, even from the first movie. And let me say this: whatever may have happened in the comics, the movie wanted that love story between Jean and Logan. It sort of took on a life of its own, the way good stories often do.

Logan's remark, "Well, I could be the good guy" was more of a sarcastic remark. Logan knows he can never truly be a "good guy" to an extent. He has a lot of blood, darkness, and sorrow on his hands, so more or less he wasn't saying he wanted to change but he was just being funny and sarcastic.

No, sorry, but you're completely wrong about that. And just because someone has blood, sorrow, and darkness in their past, it doesn't mean they're incapable of doing what is right, as Logan so often proves by his noble, self-sacrificing actions. But when he told Jean he could be the good guy, it was right after she had said that girls marry the good guy. He was in essence saying that he wanted to marry her! And Logan really is one of the good guys. He may be a "bad boy", but he's not at all a "bad guy", if you catch my meaning.

In X1/X2 those were accurate depictions of Logan. He was honorable, man of few words, willing to use deadly force, and so on and so forth. In X3 he became too soft, too obsessive over a woman who didn't love him, and wasn't honorable. Comic book/TAS universe Logan wouldn't have lusted for Jean the way he did in X3 after noticing Scott's glasses at the lake.

Logan was in love with Jean -- that didn't immediately cease when she died. And when she awoke from her coma, she invited and repeatedly encouraged him to touch her. It caught him completely off-guard. He's been holding back a storm of passion for this woman ever since he met her, and now she's encouraging his advances -- it broke down his resistance. It wasn't at all as if he was scheming this, trying to make it happen.

And "too soft"? Too obsessive? What I think a lot of you are really trying to say is that Logan simply loved Jean too much, which is not much of a crime. And I disagree with you that Jean didn't love him -- she never speaks openly about what feelings she has for him, because she can't; she is engaged to Scott, and this puts a unique spin on everything. And how is it that you figure Logan wasn't honorable in X3? He only risked everything to save her, and then gave up all that he wanted to kill her in order to protect others and to do what Jean had begged him to do. Sounds pretty honorable to me.

Scott and Jean are what true love is all about. That even through the storms, tragedy, and darkness they overcome it with their passion for one another. That's something Jean/Logan will never, ever have nor did it ever happen in the comics.

But what about the Weapon X saga? Weren't Jean and Logan lovers in that story?

 

[LastSunrise1981]

Have you actually read anything they've posted? Why so mean? Why so nasty? Why are you putting them, or anyone, down?

Revenge? For what? That's really harsh, don't you think?

Revenge???? An eye for an eye?

Since you asked nicely and don't come off as a ridiculous fanboy/fangirl. I'll answer your question.

I am nasty because they put us down for disliking the movie. We(the ones who didn't like it) had offered reasons, facts, and proven deviations from the comics themselves. Nowhere was I insulting anybody from the beginning.

Then you have certain posters like X-Maniac, Logan Babe, Weatherwitch, and YJ1 who chime in with a sarcastic/nasty remark saying, "It's not supposed to be faithful to the comics," "who is Cyclops?", "who is Gambit?", or "why can't you get over it you losers?!"

When trying to engage in a specific debate with these posters, the majority of their reasons are, "Logan is popular and hot!', "Cyclops is a boring character, he needed to die.", and so on and so forth. Those aren't intelligent reasons and they're nothing more than based off of their own obsession with a comic book character. I'm not saying they're horrible people or that they need to die, but I'm tired of us being looked as whiney fanboys because we expected a better movie.

The best revenge will be seeing the Wolverine movie flop, watching the Logan/Fox loyalists defend it and call anyone who dislikes it ******ed, and so on.

I don't have a problem with them liking X-Men 3. But they don't provide reasons except how hot Logan is and how the first two were boring films with no action.

I don't care how many times they lie about reading the comics. Bottom line, they're just the typical Fox/Logan loyalists who will accept anything.

 

[LastSunrise1981]

Ah, yes, she says she loves Scott but she never, ever says that she doesn't love Logan! And he may have forced the first kiss on her, but she sure did kiss him back for a little bit!



Hey, I never said X3 was a perfect movie. I was disappointed in a lot of things, too -- I really thought it was rushed and could have been much better if they'd taken more time. But I really did like the tragic love story between Wolverine and Jean -- I felt that coming a mile away, even from the first movie. And let me say this: whatever may have happened in the comics, the movie wanted that love story between Jean and Logan. It sort of took on a life of its own, the way good stories often do.



No, sorry, but you're completely wrong about that. And just because someone has blood, sorrow, and darkness in their past, it doesn't mean they're incapable of doing what is right, as Logan so often proves by his noble, self-sacrificing actions. But when he told Jean he could be the good guy, it was right after she had said that girls marry the good guy. He was in essence saying that he wanted to marry her! And Logan really is one of the good guys. He may be a "bad boy", but he's not at all a "bad guy", if you catch my meaning.



Logan was in love with Jean -- that didn't immediately cease when she died. And when she awoke from her coma, she invited and repeatedly encouraged him to touch her. It caught him completely off-guard. He's been holding back a storm of passion for this woman ever since he met her, and now she's encouraging his advances -- it broke down his resistance. It wasn't at all as if he was scheming this, trying to make it happen.

And "too soft"? Too obsessive? What I think a lot of you are really trying to say is that Logan simply loved Jean too much, which is not much of a crime. And I disagree with you that Jean didn't love him -- she never speaks openly about what feelings she has for him, because she can't; she is engaged to Scott, and this puts a unique spin on everything. And how is it that you figure Logan wasn't honorable in X3? He only risked everything to save her, and then gave up all that he wanted to kill her in order to protect others and to do what Jean had begged him to do. Sounds pretty honorable to me.



But what about the Weapon X saga? Weren't Jean and Logan lovers in that story?

What does Weapon X have to do with the Phoenix Saga? Last I recall The Weapon X saga had nothing to do with the Phoenix Saga.

But yes, they were lovers in the Weapon X storyline. But the Phoenix Saga isn't Weapon X. The Phoenix Saga is about Scott/Jean. Just because they were lovers in the Weapon X saga doesn't mean it would work within the context of the movies.

Believe it or not, most fans(like myself) wouldn't acknowledge the Weapon X storyline as true X-Men canon if you will. They recognize it as a story, but the real X-Men concept with Jean has always been Scott/Jean.

 

[undomiel]

Have you actually read anything they've posted? Why so mean? Why so nasty? Why are you putting them, or anyone, down?

Revenge? For what? That's really harsh, don't you think?

Revenge???? An eye for an eye?

Hey, Jan! What's up? Welcome back to our little merry-go-round thread. We're taking a lot of abuse around here lately, but we've been putting up a pretty good fight, I think. My personal theory is that the better we argue, the more abuse we get from those who disagree.

 

[Goddessreicho]

... I hate to break to you but no they were never together in the comics, and not in Weapon X. Jean has made it clear time and time again that she doesn't love Logan. He's just stubborn. Yes it does add tragicness to his character. Even when Jean's marrige to Scott began to unravel she didn't turn to him. She did what she could to save it. Jean uses Logan to do the things that she knows that Scott can't do, like kill her. Hence that whole thing on the moon.

Even when she was killed her very last thoughts were of..................Scott and his future. She even changed reality for him, not Logan.

The only time Jean and Logan were together as a couple was in the alternate storyline of Age of Apocolypse. Everybody had a brand new storyline, new personalities, never new other as the X-men, and were complete strangers. But to tell you how Jean and Logan never work out here's a brief summary of what happened: Jean and Logan meet, they fall in love, Apoc attacks, people try and kill him, Jean and Logan separate, he cheats on her with Mariko, she dies saving the world...

That pretty much sums up what would have happened in the mainline as well. Wolverine was created to NEVER be tied down to a woman. As much as he cared for Jean, he married *another* woman he loved, and had to kill her. He was forced to marry pscho Viper and that didn't work. Lets look at his last realationship. He finally admitted he had pretty strong feelings for Storm (to the man who also wanted her, nonetheless) and he had to watch her get married to him. He also found out that he had another wife who was killed by him, Itsu, and lets not mentioned what happened to Silver Fox.

So will Wolverine ever be with Jean? NOPE! The main question is does he have the luck and the abilty to be with any one. Prolly not, lol.

Edit: Weapon X was in AoA, my mishap.

 

[undomiel]

What does Weapon X have to do with the Phoenix Saga? Last I recall The Weapon X saga had nothing to do with the Phoenix Saga.

But yes, they were lovers in the Weapon X storyline. But the Phoenix Saga isn't Weapon X. The Phoenix Saga is about Scott/Jean. Just because they were lovers in the Weapon X saga doesn't mean it would work within the context of the movies.

Believe it or not, most fans(like myself) wouldn't acknowledge the Weapon X storyline as true X-Men canon if you will. They recognize it as a story, but the real X-Men concept with Jean has always been Scott/Jean.

I never said they were the same; I was merely addressing your false statement that Jean/Logan never, ever happened in the comics.

And it really doesn't surprise me that you don't accept Weapon X as canon, because it doesn't tell the story that you want to hear.

 

[Goddessreicho]

Weapon X wasn't cannon, it was in the alternate story line of Age of Apocolypse. If your trying to use WX as a basis of your argument for JeLo, don't. HE CHEATED ON HER IN THAT.

AoA was a completly different storyline. The characters had brand new personalities, backrounds,...Wolverine was not the same character and neither was Jean.

The only thing the writers kept the same was mutations and names. Find a different idea to use to back up your reasonings, its not going to work with WX.

 

[undomiel]

Aw, thanks too! And the same to you...you have one of the most thorough perspectives on the whole Jean/Logan/Cyke relationship that I've read on here.

Now THAT is encouraging!

 

[ntcrawler]

Ah, yes, she says she loves Scott but she never, ever says that she doesn't love Logan! And he may have forced the first kiss on her, but she sure did kiss him back for a little bit!

Oh please. Now you're really stretching things. This goes beyond hopelessly searching for something that's not clearly there. The way you make it sound, Jean could have slapped Logan on the face, stomped on his foot, shoved her engagement ring in his face, and then later oun made out with Scott in front of his face with full tongue action and even then people would insist that she still desires Logan deep down inside because she can't resist a bad boy. IF that's how Wolverine still feels, then it's no longer love or a crush. At this point it becomes a case of a helpless romantic who really needs to buy a clue.

Hey, I never said X3 was a perfect movie. I was disappointed in a lot of things, too -- I really thought it was rushed and could have been much better if they'd taken more time. But I really did like the tragic love story between Wolverine and Jean -- I felt that coming a mile away, even from the first movie.

Oh you did, huh? Because I saw something totally different coming and from what I've seen of the fan community, they agree that X3 went in a completly different, and sudden direction. And that's the problem here. Claiming this is an adaptation or the movieverse is an excuse, not a reason. To proceed along this path, to turn a love story between Jean and Scott into a tragic love story between Logan and Jean is exactly what's wrong with this film and exactly why it fails to properly adapt the story that it's based off of. You can change costumes, you can change the settings, you can tone down the powers, but when you ruin or violate character dynamics and relationships, then you no longer have X-Men.

And let me say this: whatever may have happened in the comics, the movie wanted that love story between Jean and Logan. It sort of took on a life of its own, the way good stories often do.

You're entitled to your opinion. You're welcome to see this and enjoy this version of events, but there's no way this will be passed off as a faithful or proper adaptation of the X-Men. Sort-of took on a life on its own? Yeah, when Rothman, Penn, and Kinberg sat down at the table and wrote up their own story of something they claim is the X-men but we all know that it isn't. And that is why we hate it and why we hate the Wolverine portrayed in X3. It's the false interpretation of the character and the actions he takes to displace others and help himself to what's not rightfully his that we hate.

No, sorry, but you're completely wrong about that. And just because someone has blood, sorrow, and darkness in their past, it doesn't mean they're incapable of doing what is right, as Logan so often proves by his noble, self-sacrificing actions.

Exactly. And Scott is the same kind of character with blood, sorrow, and darkness in his past. On alot of ways, they're on an equal footing and should be portrayed as such. To ignore that is to do the character a major injustice. Wolverine isn't special because he's hurting inside or has a dark and painful past. He's clearly not the only one and doesn't deserve more sympathy than anyone else that Xavier rescues.

But when he told Jean he could be the good guy, it was right after she had said that girls marry the good guy.

No argument there.

He was in essence saying that he wanted to marry her!

She respectfully declined. She was in essence telling him that the sign says "DO NOT ENTER"

And Logan really is one of the good guys. He may be a "bad boy", but he's not at all a "bad guy", if you catch my meaning.

I do. He can be a good guy, but he's not the guy for Jean. That much was clearly stated, acknowledged, and accepted. Case closed, issue resolved. To just open it up again in X3 for no reason is cheesy and sloppy writing. The love becomes a case of a helpless romantic. Unfortunately with Scott conveniently out of the way there's no really effective way to tell Logan to knock it off.

Logan was in love with Jean -- that didn't immediately cease when she died.

He was infatuated with her. What you see in the movie is known as a crush. His feelings were acknowledged and understood by Jean, but not returned. And when polite declines did not work, she used more blunt methods. There never was any "choice" that Jean had to make, and Logan was in no position to declare that to Scott. In addition, Logan was never in any position to tell Scott things like "maybe it's time we both moved on". Who the hell does he think he is? He's more than welcome to move on. In fact, it's highly encouraged that he do so. Jean was and is Scott and Scott's girl only, and he's more than welcome to mourne after her any way and for as long as he damn well pleases.

And when she awoke from her coma, she invited and repeatedly encouraged him to touch her.

That was the dark phoenix. who had a strong desire to experience joy in the form of physical, passionate sex. Her id taking control. Sex and orgasms, right now. RIGHT NOW! Consequences, settings, be damned. That, is not Jean. That was not Jean lusting out after Logan. The real Jean was present at Alkali Lake. What woke up in the infirmary was once again that other persona taking the driver's seat. The real Jean didn't come back until Logan asked about Scott. Then just as quickly disappeared. To claim that this is an exmple of her returning his love is incorrect and misplaced.

It caught him completely off-guard. He's been holding back a storm of passion for this woman ever since he met her, and now she's encouraging his advances -- it broke down his resistance. It wasn't at all as if he was scheming this, trying to make it happen.

Getting into her pants was the first thing on her mind when he woke up. That's clearly established in the film as well. His hormones got the best of him and all hell broke lose. Had he had any more sincere or calmer thoughts, Jean never would have gone crazy on him like that. Xavier should have made that clear: to not do anything that would make Jean feel anxious or bring out any strong emotions, but instead to keep her calm, safe and focused. Unfortunately when we have to deal with bad, crytic dialogue like "You have no idea..." instead, well... they were just asking for it then.

. And I disagree with you that Jean didn't love him -- she never speaks openly about what feelings she has for him, because she can't; she is engaged to Scott,

She never speaks for her feelings for him beacues she never had any for Logan, certainly none that would put her relationship with Scott in jeopardy. And in X2, during a period where they are in danger, and know that Xavier and Scott has disappeared and Jean is visibly worried about her fiancee, to just make the moves on her like that is not only distasteful and crass. Like hitting on someone at their beloved's funeral. Only X3 tries to open up a misplaced rift by claiming that Jean chose to die because she couldn't bear to choose between Scott and Logan. Right... I can see that Penn and Kinberg must be helpless romantics too who have unrealistic dreams about relationships to come up with something like this.

Aside from friendship and a fascination in general with Logan and his powers and heeling ability. She was interested in him from the POV of the scientist, the big fat walking brain that she considers herself to be. He was an interesting specimen and she wanted to study him and learn more about him, like she does with all mutants. It's her specialty and research after all.

And how is it that you figure Logan wasn't honorable in X3? He only risked everything to save her,

How convenient that his healing powers work at the speed of plot, eh? doesn't look like he was in much danger to me. He was able to regrow entire parts of his body as fast as Jean was disintegrating them. She must have been getting really tired and worn out from all that effort.

and then gave up all that he wanted to kill her in order to protect others and to do what Jean had begged him to do. Sounds pretty honorable to me.

Protecting others? It was more like "stay out of my way, only I can do this!" Never mind that as far as powers Storm could be considered Jean's equal. Never mind that having known her for years and years Storm was like a sister and best friend to her. And never mind that Jean begged him to save her. Not kill her. Sounds like a lousy rescue attempt to me. Which is precisely why she's not Logan's girl but Scott's. Because Scott knows her better. Knows what makes her tick, how she feels, whot she loves, what makes her happy, and what she loves. And if she's in danger, he knows what's best and how to bring her back. Had Scott been there, it would have been a completely different outcome. And would definitely be a good lesson for Wolverine to watch and learn as Scott shows him how to do things right.

Some claim that Wolverine can understand Jean because of his instincts, his special abilities. That still doesn't give him an advantage. In fact, Scott still has a double advantage over Logan. First off, there's the psychic link between Scott and Jean, one of the more unique aspect of their relationship that allows them to understand each other in ways that can't be conveyed with words and gestures. But you know what? Scott doesn't need that in the first place! If you claim you don't see it in the movieverse, that's fine. Scott doesn't need it. ANd you know why? because he has something much better and advantageoes than either a mental link or Wolverine's instincts: the advantage of time. He's been with Jean 10-15 years. That's long enough to get to know a person completely, inside out. He knows her every gesture, body language and nuance. He doesn't need special powers to tell him the difference whether it's just a headache, or more than a headache. Logan has nothing on him.

But it does make for a great, tragic love story I suppose. The kind that makes people sigh dreamily at night when reading romance novels. Perhaps Agood story on its own with a different title and setting. But it has no purpose here. Because this is not Romeo and Juliet. This is X-men. X-men is closer to the Luke/Mara Jade concept than Romeo and Juliet anyways: true love conquering all and overcoming all obstacles. X-men isn't that type of tragic love story. It never was, and isn't meant to be. That is where FOX, Rothman, Penn/Kinberg, and Ratner fails. X1 and X2 were not perfect, but were at least consistent internally and with each other, and followed things in the proper direction. X3 did not. X3 did none of those things.

 

[danoyse]

We're taking a lot of abuse around here lately, but we've been putting up a pretty good fight, I think. My personal theory is that the better we argue, the more abuse we get from those who disagree.

Seems that way. Or they just start making stuff up. Whatever floats their boat...

Hi Jan! Welcome back to the insanity.