Why the hate for Wolverine?

[gambitfire]

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

Hey...I can say the same thing to you...

SPAMMER!! -points-

 

[gambitfire]

your still doing it.

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

your still doing it.

so are you. now lets put this spamming aside and get back on topic.

 

[The Batman]

Well lets see....


He robs Cyclops, the original X-Man, THE leader of the team, of pretty much every major storyline thats his. Because Fox is so afraid to have TWO alpha males on the team. and then, they ruin the xmens biggest love story so logan and jean can have some stupid scene where they make out on a med table.

And then, Logan being the focus of the whole trilogy undermines the idea that the xmen is about a TEAM.

And then, Hugh Jackman. Sorry, hes guilty too. His producer role allowed him more power, and he probably used it.

And to top it all off, after giving this overrated xman focus in all three movies, time that couldve been used to, i dunno, flesh out other characters, they decide he gets a spinoff as well.

Wolverine works best when hes not the focus. Thats why tAS Wolvie is cool. He didnt hog the whole damn show and he simply did what he did best.

 

[The Batman]

and i too would like to see these so called bad reviews for marsden in x2

 

[Uncanny]

Well lets see...all three X-Films have basically been Wolverine and Company. He was the big hero in X1, Had his little origin story for hte majority of X2, and was big Hero in X3. He was focused on WAY to much and took the limelight away from other charecters. If they took away half of Wolverines screen time and lets say gave it to Rouge, Bobby, Colossus, Cyclops...that would be a whole lota charecter development we could get for other charecters who deserve it. Cyclops was completely ruined since Logan was basically the team leader, Cyclops didnt get show off any or have that much screen time with his girl friend. Logan seemed to have more of a realtionship with Jean then Scott had. And now he is having his own solo movie. So there was no use in making him #1 in all 3 X-Men films.

 

[Loganbabe]

Wolverine needs to return as a supporting character and nothing more. He's already got his own comic, he doesn't need to guest appear in every other X-related comic.

"Supporting character"?
Wolverine isn´t a supporting character since he appeared in that Hulk issue. I would like to know who the main characters of the X-Men are, if he´s a "supporting character".
Besides, he is not in every X-related comic. He´s not even in the most important X-Men titles, only Astonishing and Ultimate.
Hating Wolverine turned into such a cliche that everything the haters say become redundant.

 

[danoyse]

He robs Cyclops, the original X-Man, THE leader of the team, of pretty much every major storyline thats his. Because Fox is so afraid to have TWO alpha males on the team. and then, they ruin the xmens biggest love story so logan and jean can have some stupid scene where they make out on a med table.

Wolverine doesn't physically *do* anything. He is a fictional character. You're going to blame this solely on Fox? What about everyone who's made the character so successful in the comics for the last 30 years? The fans (because clearly, there are fans) for wanting more?

And while you're blaming Fox...how about tossing some blame over at Bryan Singer, who has said in interviews that he used Wolverine as a central character because being adopted himself, understood the idea of a character who was trying to find his past?

I know it's so easy to blame Fox for everything from characters' screentime to global warming...but do you really think the entire studio had a vendetta against Cyclops?

And then, Logan being the focus of the whole trilogy undermines the idea that the xmen is about a TEAM.

Well, hardly...if you actually pay attention to the films. He was a loner in the who didn't want any part of the X-Men He didn't even have a choice to be there--he was knocked out by Sabertooth, and Cyclops and Storm saved him and Rogue. Even in the first film, Storm was the one trying to convince him to be part of the team. She told him he couldn't save Rogue alone--and it was the entire team who stopped Magneto and saved the kid. And then he left at the end of the movie.

He didn't take over anything in the 2nd movie either--he just happened to be the one watching the kids when the soldiers came. He wasn't in charge when they were escaping the fighter planes in the jet, Jean and Storm were. And when they reached Alkalai Lake, he took off on his own to find Stryker. He didn't rescue the professor from the dark Cerebro. Rogue and Bobby were the ones who brought the jet over when Magneto abandoned them, and Jean was the one who helped them get away. He certainly hadn't taken anything over at the end of the movie. Did it look like he was teaching a class?

What had he taken over in X3? One of his first lines in the movie was "Look, I'm just the sub...you've got a problem, take it up with Scott." He didn't want the bloody job. The Professor told Storm he wanted her to take his place, not Wolverine--who did take over the school when Xavier died, not Wolverine. Then he took off again--after an argument with Storm that looked just like a scene from the first movie, and wound up getting his butt kicked by Magneto because he couldn't do it alone. He went BACK to the X-Men, so as a TEAM they could stop him. "We stand together, X-Men," was the line. Not "I'm in charge."

Which is exactly what they were in that Alcatraz scene...a team. Just because it didn't include Cyclops (who I would have loved to have seen there too), didn't mean it was the Wolverine show.

And then, Hugh Jackman. Sorry, hes guilty too. His producer role allowed him more power, and he probably used it.

Oh please. Do you really think he wielded his producer status like the ring of power and erased everyone else's roles? That he's forcing them all to say things like this in interviews with SHH:

SHH!: The rest of the cast had worked so much together so before, so how was it being brought into that dynamic?
Grammer: Fantastic, and Hugh is responsible for that. He sets a great tone. He's the leading man and he makes it an environment that is friendly and welcoming, harmonious and creative. There's a real wonderful exuberance about the project that Hugh brings to it. That's his job. The leading man, that's their job.

And to top it all off, after giving this overrated xman focus in all three movies, time that couldve been used to, i dunno, flesh out other characters, they decide he gets a spinoff as well.

Because the character was so successful in the films that are already out there. And it's not the only spinoff they're planning.

Wolverine works best when hes not the focus. Thats why tAS Wolvie is cool. He didnt hog the whole damn show and he simply did what he did best.

Well considering the success of the films where his character was the focus, I'm guess he works fine for a lot of people.

 

[ntcrawler]

Wolverine doesn't physically *do* anything. He is a fictional character. You're going to blame this solely on Fox? What about everyone who's made the character so successful in the comics for the last 30 years? The fans (because clearly, there are fans) for wanting more?

Wolverine in the comics doesn't achieve his likeability or fame by displacing Cyclops or stealing his things. Unless the story is a specific Wolverine story or spinoff, when done as part of the team there is always a balance between the characters. Wolverine may play an important part or save the day, but in a team comic it's never just about him. In the movieverse he's portrayed as doing a landgrab against Cyclops. Taking his motorcycle, his car, his woman, and then his leadership position, even giving speeches that are totally out of character for the guy.

I know it's so easy to blame Fox for everything from characters' screentime to global warming...but do you really think the entire studio had a vendetta against Cyclops?

No. Just Rothman and Donner. Who pretty much represent the entire studio. You try going against them and see how long you'll last. This was their idea, and Ratner and Penn and Kinberg carried it out. Singer told Marsden during pre-production that X3 will be his character's chance to shine. Rothman and Donner would hear nothing of that. They told Singer that they couldn't allow X3 to proceed as planned due to financial concerns over making Cyclops a major character, among other reasons. So Singer had his opportunity to do Superman and left. Shortly after, FOX gave the go-ahead for X3 according to their own vision.

What had he taken over in X3?

Cyclops' role, and Cyclops' lines.

couldn't do it alone. He went BACK to the X-Men, so as a TEAM they could stop him. "We stand together, X-Men," was the line. Not "I'm in charge."

"We stand together," until it comes time to rescue Jean. Then "I, and only I will save her. Never mind you've been friends with her for 15-20 years and I've only known her for a total of 1-2 weeks."

Which is exactly what they were in that Alcatraz scene...a team. Just because it didn't include Cyclops (who I would have loved to have seen there too),

We agree on that

 

[ntcrawler]

"Supporting character"?
Wolverine isn´t a supporting character since he appeared in that Hulk issue. I would like to know who the main characters of the X-Men are, if he´s a "supporting character".

Professor X, Cyclops, Jean Grey, Storm, Beast, Rogue, Magneto, and Mystique.

Hating Wolverine turned into such a cliche that everything the haters say become redundant.

Sounds like you're running out of arguments so you turn to attacking the haters instead

 

[ntcrawler]

He robs Cyclops, the original X-Man, THE leader of the team, of pretty much every major storyline thats his. Because Fox is so afraid to have TWO alpha males on the team. and then, they ruin the xmens biggest love story so logan and jean can have some stupid scene where they make out on a med table.

I disagree with one thing you say. I don't really see Cyclops as an alpha male. He leads because he's good at it and projects an aura of competence and confidence, not by beating his chest like a gorilla and projecting his manhood. He didn't get to where he is by waving his genitals around. As the field leader of the X-Men and Jean's soulmate, both are roles he spent years to achieve with his hard work and dedication.

 

[UraniaChang]

I disagree with one thing you say. I don't really see Cyclops as an alpha male. He leads because he's good at it and projects an aura of competence and confidence, not by beating his chest like a gorilla and projecting his manhood. He didn't get to where he is by waving his genitals around. As the field leader of the X-Men and Jean's soulmate, both are roles he spent years to achieve with his hard work and dedication.

That Kingkong style you portrayed makes me laugh...and I certainly agree with you that Scott is not some barbarian craving for a mate, he is the foundation stone of the X-Men.

 

[ntcrawler]

That Kingkong style you portrayed makes me laugh...and I certainly agree with you that Scott is not some barbarian craving for a mate, he is the foundation stone of the X-Men.

Right. He didn't get Jean because he was lusting for her and lunged himself at her. It took years to earn her heart and he first built up a mutual friendship with her based on absolute, total trust. Unless he screws up BADLY, this kind of life-long bond is not one you can destroy by hitting on Jean and claiming to understand her and her needs better than Scott even though you've only been around her for 1-2 weeks.

Foundation stone is an excellent analogy. And you know what happens to a house when you destroy the foundation...

 

[Celestial]

and i too would like to see these so called bad reviews for marsden in x2

The old "put up or shut up", which is quite right

I read just about every review back in 2003 and was left with the impression that reviewers felt that James Marsden was X2's Halle Berry - too little to do with some thinking what he did do wasn't so good. (For the record, I thought he was fine)

Of course, going back it's hard to find any reviews of Marsden's performance as he rarely gets more than a mention in the cast list. There are a few that comment that he doesn't have much to do or is absent, which are problems with the screenplay rather than the actor. There are also negative comments from some of the minor "critics" and bloggers which you could find by doing a seach on "Marsden" and "wooden".

James Marsden as Cyclops/Scott Summers is an agreeable screen presence, but fails to convince in a sequence demanding his complete dramatic believability – diminishing the potency of an otherwise impactful scene.

IGN.

It seems a silly choice, and not just because James Marsden, who plays the sunglasses-wearing Cyclops, seems to have been cast for his jawline, not his talent. He's the one weak performance in an otherwise perfect ensemble.

Killer Movie Reviews

That being said, the truly worst performance in the film comes from Marsden whose wooden romantic interest shows nary an emotion and forces the audience to wonder what Dr. Grey sees in him.

Oscarguy

On the other hand Cyclops (James Marsden) is once again made to look like a bit of a wimp and Storm (Halle Berry) is under utilised.

http://www.dvdlard.co.uk/Content.aspx?ContentID=1072

Marsden is once again given almost nothing to do except smolder and shoot optic blasts from his eyes.

http://www.shakingthrough.net/movies/reviews/2003/x2_xmen_united_2003.html

Back to my opinions.
It doesn't matter if Cyclops' lack of presence in X2 was due to the writers or the actor. What matters is that he failed to stand out.

Fans of Cyclops may think that after being neglected in two movies, he was due for some screentime and that Wolverine had already had too much. But studios are about playing safe. They continue with the one that works and don't bother with the one who has yet to prove himself. Maybe if he'd won an Oscar for something else...

 

[Hulkster]

I hate Wolverine because I know that FOX intended to Kill Cyclops so they could make Wolverine take over his role in X3. And by doing that Wolverine also pushed the other characters into the background.

And X3 didn't earn big bucks just because of Wolverine, it earns a lot of money because of the title "X-men" not Wolverine.

 

[gambitfire]

i had a good argument for danoyse but stupid thing erased it.........oh well.

 

[danoyse]

Back to my opinions.
It doesn't matter if Cyclops' lack of presence in X2 was due to the writers or the actor. What matters is that he failed to stand out.

Fans of Cyclops may think that after being neglected in two movies, he was due for some screentime and that Wolverine had already had too much. But studios are about playing safe. They continue with the one that works and don't bother with the one who has yet to prove himself. Maybe if he'd won an Oscar for something else...

Exactly. I'll get fried for saying this...but when I saw Superman last month, we all agreed we liked him much better "without those silly glasses on his face."

It's true...I know everyone's a comic book fan and that's who Cyclops is, but to the uninitiated, which is a good chunk of the X-Men movie audience, it's very hard to connect to a character whose face is mostly obscured the entire time. An even bigger shame because James Marsden has amazingly beautiful blue eyes.

You couldn't see his face, he came off as kind of a stuffed shirt, they found an 'NSync cd blasting in his car, he was barely in X2. It's not like they suddenly dropped the character now, they've been doing it all along.

 

[gambitfire]

Wolverine doesn't physically *do* anything. He is a fictional character. You're going to blame this solely on Fox? What about everyone who's made the character so successful in the comics for the last 30 years? The fans (because clearly, there are fans) for wanting more?

So then why are there more angry fans out there right now? and why are we even in a thread called what it is if there are so many wanting more? i think there are just as many who have had enough.

And while you're blaming Fox...how about tossing some blame over at Bryan Singer, who has said in interviews that he used Wolverine as a central character because being adopted himself, understood the idea of a character who was trying to find his past?

No i won't blame Singer he gave the other characters more than Ratner even bothered fighting for. Yes he used Wolverine if he hadn't ppl would of lynched him for not doing so. That may sound like a contradiction to my previous statement but i can't help it feel like most of the ppl who have had enough got it from the movies .

I know it's so easy to blame Fox for everything from characters' screentime to global warming...but do you really think the entire studio had a vendetta against Cyclops?

No not at all. I mean everything may just seem so convenient but no it's not like FOX is completely to blame. It's not their fault that Singer left and took Marsden with him. It's not a coincidence that killing of the character of Cyclops would leave Storm in command coincidentally played by Oscar award winner A-list Halle Berry. It's not at all a coincidence that if Cyclops isn't around then Wolverine would be the one who has all the screen time with Jean and would try to save his "true love". No im sure the Studio had no Vendetta against him even though they practically said from the beginning they would have no problem discarding the character.

Well, hardly...if you actually pay attention to the films. He was a loner in the who didn't want any part of the X-Men He didn't even have a choice to be there--he was knocked out by Sabertooth, and Cyclops and Storm saved him and Rogue. Even in the first film, Storm was the one trying to convince him to be part of the team. She told him he couldn't save Rogue alone--and it was the entire team who stopped Magneto and saved the kid. And then he left at the end of the movie.

He didn't take over anything in the 2nd movie either--he just happened to be the one watching the kids when the soldiers came. He wasn't in charge when they were escaping the fighter planes in the jet, Jean and Storm were. And when they reached Alkalai Lake, he took off on his own to find Stryker. He didn't rescue the professor from the dark Cerebro. Rogue and Bobby were the ones who brought the jet over when Magneto abandoned them, and Jean was the one who helped them get away. He certainly hadn't taken anything over at the end of the movie. Did it look like he was teaching a class?

What had he taken over in X3? One of his first lines in the movie was "Look, I'm just the sub...you've got a problem, take it up with Scott." He didn't want the bloody job. The Professor told Storm he wanted her to take his place, not Wolverine--who did take over the school when Xavier died, not Wolverine. Then he took off again--after an argument with Storm that looked just like a scene from the first movie, and wound up getting his butt kicked by Magneto because he couldn't do it alone. He went BACK to the X-Men, so as a TEAM they could stop him. "We stand together, X-Men," was the line. Not "I'm in charge."

OF course everything plays out right if it's written too do so. But even then i can't help it feel like X2 set-up for something different..........i wonder why.

Which is exactly what they were in that Alcatraz scene...a team. Just because it didn't include Cyclops (who I would have loved to have seen there too), didn't mean it was the Wolverine show.

really because i lacked on my Bobby, Kitty, Piotr scenes at the end. while i was forced Storm and Wolverine and barely got Beast.

Oh please. Do you really think he wielded his producer status like the ring of power and erased everyone else's roles? That he's forcing them all to say things like this in interviews with SHH:

No but good to see Grammer notices that Hugh is The LEADING MAN.

Because the character was so successful in the films that are already out there. And it's not the only spinoff they're planning.

Because they made sure of his success from the beginning.
They'r doing a Magneto spin-off....that's about it.

Well considering the success of the films where his character was the focus, I'm guess he works fine for a lot of people.

Fine isnt' enough. I want no more than 6 X-Men, with a good focus on alteast 4. I want the X-Men not a clashing of convenient Star Power. I want a good story and the character to be potrayed properly. I have yet anyone to prove to me that these characters actually potrayed themselves in that last movie. If he works so fine this movie should of been an even bigger succes than what it's "claimed" to be. Fine ins't enough when it comes to X-MEN!!!!


lol sorry i got carried away.

 

[gambitfire]

Exactly. I'll get fried for saying this...but when I saw Superman last month, we all agreed we liked him much better "without those silly glasses on his face."

It's true...I know everyone's a comic book fan and that's who Cyclops is, but to the uninitiated, which is a good chunk of the X-Men movie audience, it's very hard to connect to a character whose face is mostly obscured the entire time. An even bigger shame because James Marsden has amazingly beautiful blue eyes.

You couldn't see his face, he came off as kind of a stuffed shirt, they found an 'NSync cd blasting in his car, he was barely in X2. It's not like they suddenly dropped the character now, they've been doing it all along.

Im not saying they intended it to be this way (edit- Okay i am )but the Writers clearly stated that FOX wanted Wolverine to be front man from the very beginning. FROM X1 yes FOX wanted it all the way back in X1.

 

[DarknessOfDeath]

I say the hell with Fox and their puny mother f***ing Wolvie Spin off

 

[gambitfire]

WTF!! your on crack..............................

 

[S7ilver]

I disagree with one thing you say. I don't really see Cyclops as an alpha male. He leads because he's good at it and projects an aura of competence and confidence, not by beating his chest like a gorilla and projecting his manhood. He didn't get to where he is by waving his genitals around. As the field leader of the X-Men and Jean's soulmate, both are roles he spent years to achieve with his hard work and dedication.

I guess that's true story-wise but in reality Cyclops has been so influential because he was put into the role of leader of the X-men which made him very important to Marvel. Wolverine earned his influence and recognition because of his popularity not because of what the writers made his role.
Putting it simply Cyclops is important because the writers chose him to be, Wolverine is because of himself

 

[The Batman]

I disagree with one thing you say. I don't really see Cyclops as an alpha male. He leads because he's good at it and projects an aura of competence and confidence, not by beating his chest like a gorilla and projecting his manhood. He didn't get to where he is by waving his genitals around. As the field leader of the X-Men and Jean's soulmate, both are roles he spent years to achieve with his hard work and dedication.

I didnt mean it that way.

What i meant was his leadership position. Because hes the leader of the team in the comics, cyclops was destroyed the most to make wolvie more dominating

 

[ntcrawler]

I didnt mean it that way.

What i meant was his leadership position. Because hes the leader of the team in the comics, cyclops was destroyed the most to make wolvie more dominating

You're right. Destroyed the most? More like LITERALLY destroyed to give Wolverine the chance to be more dominating. And by doing so, it takes away more of the character's credibility that was established in X1 and X2. In each movie, Cyclops made 2 an important, significant promise. A character like that is supposed to be heroic, have a heart that's larger than life. And a character like this doesn't say something unless they intend to keep it. When characters like him promise something, they intend to keep it. Unfortitately, by being eliminated from the story, he comes off as a liar and didn't get the chance to keep either promise. So much for his word.

And he is the logical target, being the field leader of the X-men, and having the balls to stand up and have the last word with Wolverine, especially in the extended bedroom scene. That just can't do.