Why the hate for Wolverine?

[Uncanny]

The same does not apply to X3, where Wolverine's character was unfairly thrown into the spotlight in the movie, made to do things that were completely out of character for Wolverine and unfair to the rest of the characters. Despite what you may say or think, Wolverine is not a leadoer, a family man, or a team player. Wolverines are not "wolferines". Wolverines are solitary, not pack animals. He may tag along with the team and help out, but when the mission is over he usually moves on his own, like he did in X1. His strategies are supposed to revolve around him with him risking his life in a haphazard way to save the day. The things he did in X3, such as leading the team and giving those inspirational speeches are clearly parts meant to be played by Cyclops. In addition, after Cyclops Storm is next in line to be team leader, and when it comes to strategies and tactics, Storm is supposed to be next qualified after Cyclops. Instead, Wolverine shoves her aside to do both. Storm is shown to be neither a leader or a tactician. She's mostly there in a supporting role to provide the team with cloud cover and fog. And the team effort obviously collapses when it comes to Jean. Logan brashly tells her that only HE can save her and that basically the rest should'nt interfere. To even hint that the rest of the team would not care or even try to reach out to someone they have known and been close to as family for years and years is again also wrong. If this is how X3 interprets the X-men story or franchise, then it is not an excuse to say that it is simply a new interpretation. On the contrary, this is a wrong interpretation, because this is not how it is done in every other portrayal, every other comical universe or timeline, and in both the Animated Series and Evolution. If you deny any of these things then you are only fooling yourself.

 

[danoyse]

no, no buts. I'm right at this point. Admit it. You're running out of arguments to refute this and it's not working.

That's absolutely absurd. No one on this thread is right or wrong.

You will have no luck convincing me that your point of view is right than I will convincing you that mine is. Don't get so offended when anyone has a rebuttal to your opinion.

And Romeo and Juliet exist only in the Shakespearean universe. Therefore if you won't let my example apply, then your example doesn't apply either.

Yes, one story that has been adapted into plays, movies, and even a musical ("West Side Story"). Of the same story. There's no expanded universe of additional material that exists outside of that story.

Besides, extended universe is consdered canonical part of Star Wars movieverse.,

As a "Star Wars" fan for nearly 30 years...believe me, there have been endless debates over what's canon and what's not. Even I discard some of those stories if I think the book is crap (and there have been several).

btw. Scott and Jean, however exist in all the known universes and incantations of the X-Men. This is hardly an alternative, "what-if" backstory but a major part of every story.

And it existed in the movies too. People who'd never read the comic books before (me) knew that. No one is debating they were a couple.

Again, it goes back to that same argument that if you were a fan of the comics...you know more than the average person seeing the story in a movie theater for the very first time. It's just a different perception. Not a wrong perception, just a different one.

I've heard critics discuss plotholes in the "Harry Potter" movies that completely mystified me...but I realize I didn't see the plothole because I've read all the books and usually know more about what the movie left out than someone seeing it for the first time.

So? Logan's obsessive love with Jean and him going in for the kiss and makeout session wasn't put in from the start, either. But Scott and Jean's relationship was was there from the start and was made clear from the start. Logan sees them holding hands, and Jean makes it clear they sleep in the same room. Then there's the part about "stay away from my girl". He should have taken the hint that she's not available. Putting his nose into forbidden territory is not a sign of devotion but of an angsy obsessive desire and disrespectful of an already established couple.

And he was supposed to walk away at that point? Where's the drama there? "Yes, Cyclops...I will stay away from your girl. Good night." Please.

They've pretty much established that he's not a play-by-the-rules type of guy, was he supposed to be intimidated by all that?

They also don't know Logan's backstory either. Far as they can tell he has no backstory, except for running around in the back woods of Alberta for 15 years taking on odd jobs and making do with whatever he can. No hint at complexities, past relationships, romance, or the ability to love there either. I see none of the complexities that you and others like you keep swearing by.

Maybe you should watch it again.

Rogue: "When they come out, does it hurt?"
Logan: "Everytime."

They said more about that character in that one scene than you found about Cyclops in the entire movie.

And don't you start quoting comic books again...I mean this in the sense of someone who walked into a movie theater with no knowledge of any of these characters backstories.

What did we know about Cyclops? He shoots lasers out of his eyes, he's Jean's boyfriend, he doesn't like Logan, and he flies the jet, and he keeps losing his motorcycle.

And I liked the guy...he was a good leader and followed the rules. But I liked the mysterious guy better, and would have disappointed if he'd wimped out and backed of his whole Jean obsession right there.

I have to say, from a female point of view...it was more fun to see how Jean was attracted to both of them. Like her reaction when Logan said she couldn't wait to get his shirt off again. She clearly loved Scott, but you knew there was a part of her that totally dug Logan. Made her a more interesting character.

Once again, with the disclaimer...I had never read the comics before. Different perspective.

As far as Scott and Jean however, the audience doesn't need to know the full story. The fact that they are together and love each other and are engaged is enough. Logan's stuck fighting an uphill battle which he clearly loses by the end of X2. To simply try again simply because Scott's conveniently knocked out of the way is inappropriate and in bad taste, especially in light of the situation that they are in. And Jean never is seen to return his feelings. the last thing he yells to her before snikting her is "I love you". Does she ever return the feelings or say it back to him or hint at any way that she feels the same (hot makeout session while in Dark Phoenix persona doesn't count since it's obviously not Jean)? No.

Well he conceded that point in X2. "She made a choice. She chose you." Didn't mean he still didn't love her. He didn't go after her in X3 because Scott was dead...it was because he still loved her. Hell, he was the first one who ever asked what happened to Scott.

And she did care for Logan. She always did.

Read the character bios on the movie websites. If that's not enough, check out some of the pictures of Jean. In some scenes, she's wearing what looks to me like a ring on that special finger.

Again, you can't assume the general audience is going to hunt for her engagement ring or Google them after they leave the theater. You have to establish it clearly in the movie, if the point you're trying to make is that her heart truly lies only with Scott.

She didn't even tell Logan that when he asked if her gift was "putting up with that guy."

The fact that Scott was willing to ride 2500 miles across country on a motorcycle to follow his faith and the way Jean was calling out to him for months begging for him to save her, not to mention the deveastation he felt at losing her and the sorrow and despair she felt at the moments of her death, to me is proof enough that it was a very deep love. As for not playing out as well as it could have on screen, that much is Obvious, since the writers got rid of Cyclops before he could even savor a kiss during a moment of his greatest joy and vindication with Jean in X3.

I never questioned that either. But Logan was devastated when she died (he was the one hugging Cyclops in the jet)...and he went to try and save her too.

It was quite clear that Jean chose Scott...but Logan still loved her, and she was attracted to him.

 

[Loganbabe]

Your reasoning is flawed. To you Magic Johnson may have been the most recognized and famous players, but Kareem, Michael Cooper, and A.C. Green were not slouches in the fame department.

Like I´ve said (twice), I´m not American and I couldn´t care less about American basketball, so you can stop the lectures.

His strategies are supposed to revolve around him with him risking his life in a haphazard way to save the day. The things he did in X3, such as leading the team and giving those inspirational speeches are clearly parts meant to be played by Cyclops.

Yeah, I get it, Wolverine is a selfish bastard who doesn´t give a damn about anything. Cyke is the one who cares about his family, his wife, his team, saving the whales, world poverty...

Logan brashly tells her that only HE can save her and that basically the rest should'nt interfere.

That´s ridiculous, he wanted to protect them because he knew Jean was out of control, and he had some kind of a chance when confronting her.
No, no...actually he did it because he was a selfish bastard. If it was Cyke on Logan´s position, he would be the immaculate hero trying to stop his lovely girlfriend of commiting mass murder. But Logan is just a selfish bastard loner animal who doesn´t give a damn about the team, or his friends, or saving the whales or world poverty.
What a horrible, disgusting character he is...it´s hard to believe he has any fans at all!

Again, information including clippings from interviews with Singer have been posted to indicate otherwise. Read the other threads and you'll be able to see that.

Again, I would like to see them. I guess it wouldn´t be so difficult for you to show me one or two of those clippings.

No, it's not unrealistic.

It´s totally unrealistic.

To sum it up, the Phoenix saga revolves around Scott and Jean, with Logan at best a supporting character. Therefore, a larger role for Cyclops is not only expected, but obvious.

Cyke being the main character in the Phoenix saga may be obvious in the comics, but he was never supposed to be the main character in any X-Men movie. So it´s obvious he wouldn´t be the main character in X3.

Argument: I hate Wolverine
Counter: Why??? Wolverine is so lovable!
Argument: I hate the way he was portrayed in the film
Counter: But he did so many great things in the film! He's a hero! [squee!]
Argument: I hate the way he displaced other chars and took over their roles and did things that Wolverine would never do
Counter: But he's so popular! So that's what fans wanted to see!

Squee!? Wow, nice way of making all Wolverine fans look like stupid morons!

 

[ntcrawler]

You will have no luck convincing me that your point of view is right than I will convincing you that mine is. Don't get so offended when anyone has a rebuttal to your opinion.

Hardly. It's only a movie after all

Yes, one story that has been adapted into plays, movies, and even a musical ("West Side Story"). Of the same story. There's no expanded universe of additional material that exists outside of that story.

Romeo and Juliet does not apply to this case as it's the wrong analogy to use for this relationship. Scott and Jean is not a tragic love story, it's a story about love helping to conquer all. Luke and Mara therefore fit in more closely. It doesn't matter what universe it's from, it's the analogy and how it applies to this case that counts.

As a "Star Wars" fan for nearly 30 years...believe me, there have been endless debates over what's canon and what's not. Even I discard some of those stories if I think the book is crap (and there have been several).

Oh I do believe you. Thought I've only been a fan for 25.

And it existed in the movies too. People who'd never read the comic books before (me) knew that. No one is debating they were a couple.

Glad we agree.

Again, it goes back to that same argument that if you were a fan of the comics...you know more than the average person seeing the story in a movie theater for the very first time. It's just a different perception. Not a wrong perception, just a different one.

If it's just a perception, then that's fine. But if it's due to the movie twisting something the wrong way or portraying something incorrectly, then it's the movie's fault.

And he was supposed to walk away at that point? Where's the drama there? "Yes, Cyclops...I will stay away from your girl. Good night." Please.

There isn't supposed to be drama here in the first place. There's plenty of room for drama elsewhere. The issue is supposed to be settled. She's taken, go look someone else. I hear Ororo is available...

They've pretty much established that he's not a play-by-the-rules type of guy, was he supposed to be intimidated by all that?

No, he's supposed to respect it. Otherwise if he's the kind of helpless romantic that just doesn't get it, then he needs to get optic blasted through a wall in order to help drive the point home.

Maybe you should watch it again.

Rogue: "When they come out, does it hurt?"
Logan: "Everytime."

That's drama? That's a deep, complex character backgrund? All that tells me is that it hurts to extend claws.

They said more about that character in that one scene than you found about Cyclops in the entire movie.

I doubt it, as Jean also explains to Logan that Scott's concept of "control" is a good one, especially since without his glasses he could end up blowing a hole through the side of a mountain. So the fact that he's careful and meticulous is a GOOD thing. That to me says alot about the character, about how dangerous he is, and why he may seem so uptight. And that obviously Jean agrees with this kind of control as he wants to be careful to not hurt her or anyone else. Plus we get to see in X1 what happens when Scott does lose control of his optic beams.

That to me says alot more than about Logan admitting that it hurts to extend his claws.

And don't you start quoting comic books again...I mean this in the sense of someone who walked into a movie theater with no knowledge of any of these characters backstories.

That's fine, as long as you don't start talking about how complex and beautiful Wolverine's background is, which we don't see in the movies either.

What did we know about Cyclops? He shoots lasers out of his eyes, he's Jean's boyfriend, he doesn't like Logan, and he flies the jet, and he keeps losing his motorcycle.

Read above. Plus by the time you see the film you learn he's Xavier's designated heir and has a huge burden on his shoulders, he cares alot about his team, he's the field leader, he's a good strategist, he's polite, he made a concious effort to be nice to Logan only to be turned into a target for all his insults, and he doesn't believe in suicide strategies.

And I liked the guy...he was a good leader and followed the rules. But I liked the mysterious guy better, and would have disappointed if he'd wimped out and backed of his whole Jean obsession right there.

It was a futile effort from the start. All he managed to accomplish was to annoy both Scott and Jean.

I have to say, from a female point of view...it was more fun to see how Jean was attracted to both of them. Like her reaction when Logan said she couldn't wait to get his shirt off again.

As a doctor she's well versed in dealing with all sorts of patients. She was trying her best to be polite and good natured.

She clearly loved Scott, but you knew there was a part of her that totally dug Logan. Made her a more interesting character.

Nothing wrong with flirting, plus I'm sure as a woman in her 30's she did enjoy the attention she was getting. What attractive woman wouldn't? Thankfully what she wanted and what she needed were two different things and it didn't compromise her integrity and loyalty.

Well he conceded that point in X2. "She made a choice. She chose you." Didn't mean he still didn't love her. He didn't go after her in X3 because Scott was dead...it was because he still loved her. Hell, he was the first one who ever asked what happened to Scott.

And she did care for Logan. She always did.

She's a compassionate person. She cared for all of her teammates. If something happened to anyone of them she would be greatly upset.

Again, you can't assume the general audience is going to hunt for her engagement ring or Google them after they leave the theater. You have to establish it clearly in the movie, if the point you're trying to make is that her heart truly lies only with Scott.

She didn't even tell Logan that when he asked if her gift was "putting up with that guy."

First off, she's under no obligation to tell him anything. Her life, her relationships are her own business. She's not about to spill the gory details to a guy they brought in from the back woods of Alberta that she met on the operating table. If anything, pointing out that her room is "down the hall, with Scott" should come off clearly as "nice try, but I'm already taken".

Second, she was caught off guard by his jabs and did her best to be polite. It's what Xavier would have wanted. It's what Xavier taught his people. Being polite and diplomatic is one of her better qualities. But she clearly did make the point clear in X2. "I love him, Logan". And when he tried to get fresh with her, she left him. I don't know how much clearer you can make the point. OK, perhaps she should have slappeb him on the face and told him to buzz off. If telling Logan she loves Scott doesn't mean her heart belongs to Scott, then maybe you and I speak different English dialects. Did she have to grab Scott and give him a mouth to mouth tonsilectomy in front of Logan to make her point?

I never questioned that either. But Logan was devastated when she died (he was the one hugging Cyclops in the jet)...

EVERYONE was devastated when Jean died. Logan's sadness was nothing special or to brag about. Yes, he was hugging Scott. He was holding Scott back from running off the plane to get to Jean!!! He didn't hug him for therapy or support reasons. He was preventing him from getting off the plane.

It was quite clear that Jean chose Scott...but Logan still loved her, and she was attracted to him.

She certainly did feel sorry for him and all the pain he went through and was fascinated by his healing factor and other aspects of his mutation. She knew that he was a good man deep inside with a sense of honor.

 

[ntcrawler]

Like I´ve said (twice), I´m not American and I couldn´t care less about American basketball, so you can stop the lectures.

Then don't use them as an analogy if you don't understand them. I already showed you that the basketball example with Magic Johnson doesn't work.

Yeah, I get it, Wolverine is a selfish bastard who doesn´t give a damn about anything. Cyke is the one who cares about his family, his wife, his team, saving the whales, world poverty...

Wow... you really do know Cyclops!!! I think there's hope!

That´s ridiculous, he wanted to protect them because he knew Jean was out of control, and he had some kind of a chance when confronting her.

Others may have had ideas as well. Storm had an excellent chance of being able to confront Jean, not only because of her own powers but because of the bond she had with Jean and therefore the effect she would have on helping bring her to her senses. Same with Hank. They were like 2 sisters and a brother. Notice also that Jean never, ever directly attacked any of the X-Men. Even when she was randomly disintegrating everything and vaporizing people, she never did that to any of her fellow X-men. And it wasn't because they had those "character shields" that prevent them from dying. No, she didn't hurt them for a reason.

No, no...actually he did it because he was a selfish bastard. If it was Cyke on Logan´s position, he would be the immaculate hero trying to stop his lovely girlfriend of commiting mass murder.

Actually he would. He would have found another way of dealing with her or helping her cope and stop the destruction. Heck, even at Alkali Lake he was doing a pretty good job. He essentially did exactly what was needed to help Jean stay calm and focused and not get angsty and freak out.

But Logan is just a selfish bastard loner animal who doesn´t give a damn about the team, or his friends, or saving the whales or world poverty.
What a horrible, disgusting character he is...it´s hard to believe he has any fans at all!

You're one of his fans, aren't you?

Cyke being the main character in the Phoenix saga may be obvious in the comics, but he was never supposed to be the main character in any X-Men movie.

Again, that's your opinion. Those who understand Singer's work and strategy stand differently.

So it´s obvious he wouldn´t be the main character in X3.

If it's the Phoenix saga, then him being one of the main chars is not only obvious but inherent to the storyline. As much as it's obvious that the Phoenix Saga will have Jean in it. Of course, since this is the movieverse and it's ok to be different, perhaps they should have made the Phoenix Saga about Storm or Mystique. I'm sure the general audience would be all over this new twist and enjoy the fresh approach.

Squee!? Wow, nice way of making all Wolverine fans look like stupid morons!

hehe, i've seen your posts to the Wolverine thread. I know you squee with delight whenever you see a picture of the sexy Hugh I know you're one of his biggest fans and supporters, I can tell just by looking at your screen name

I know you wanted to see more of Wolverine and have him be the main, central character in all the movies and get top billing and be the great hero that he was portrayed as being. So relax! You got exactly what you wanted. So bask in the moment and enjoy your victory

 

[Loganbabe]

Then don't use them as an analogy if you don't understand them. I already showed you that the basketball example with Magic Johnson doesn't work.

It works, because Johnson is still much more popular and famous all over the world than any of those guys you mentioned. And he was good at what he did.
Like Wolvie.

Others may have had ideas as well. Storm had an excellent chance of being able to confront Jean, not only because of her own powers but because of the bond she had with Jean and therefore the effect she would have on helping bring her to her senses.

Yeah, such a bond..."You´re going after her, Logan? She killed Scott and the Professor...she made her choice going with Magneto!"
Storm sounded like she wanted Jean to burn in hell...

Again, that's your opinion. Those who understand Singer's work and strategy stand differently.

So, all X3 bashers now have some kind of "Singer Phd"?

hehe, i've seen your posts to the Wolverine thread. I know you squee with delight whenever you see a picture of the sexy Hugh I know you're one of his biggest fans and supporters, I can tell just by looking at your screen name

Uh?
What it has to do with anything?
Hugh´s thread is a totally different thing. Yeah, he´s gorgeous and sexy as hell, but I don´t associate him with Wolverine all the time. I´m a fan of THE ACTOR Hugh and THE CHARACTER Wolverine. I love how Hugh portrays Wolvie in the movies, but when I read the comics, I´m into the character. I rarely think about Hugh, unless the artist draws Wolvie a little bit like him.
Or is this another way of saying I´m not articulate and I can´t defend my point of view clearly on this thread because I´m only a woman "squeeing" over Hugh, and not a real fan of the character?
Way to be misogynistic...

I know you wanted to see more of Wolverine and have him be the main, central character in all the movies and get top billing and be the great hero that he was portrayed as being. So relax! You got exactly what you wanted. So bask in the moment and enjoy your victory

Actually, my victory will only be complete when I see "Wolverine" on the big screen...
Oh happy day it will be!

 

[ntcrawler]

It works, because Johnson is still much more popular and famous all over the world than any of those guys you mentioned. And he was good at what he did.
Like Wolvie.

No, it doesn't work because the coach did not smear Johnson all over the billboards or make him captain of the team or give him the Forward or Center positions just because fans were in love with him, unlike what the studios did with Wolverine, his position within the X-men organization, and his role in the movies, especially in X3.

Yeah, such a bond..."You´re going after her, Logan? She killed Scott and the Professor...she made her choice going with Magneto!"
Storm sounded like she wanted Jean to burn in hell...

Like Wolverine, Storm too is a complex character who can show as much anger as she can show compassion.

So, all X3 bashers now have some kind of "Singer Phd"?

Now that's exagerrating things a bit, isn't it? Obviously fans of Singer who keep up with his work and interviews, commentaries, etc will be more familior with his style and intentions than those who just flat-out hate him without bothering to do their research.

Uh?
What it has to do with anything?

It has to do with you thinking that I'm implying that Wolverine fans are morons.

Hugh´s thread is a totally different thing. Yeah, he´s gorgeous and sexy as hell, but I don´t associate him with Wolverine all the time. I´m a fan of THE ACTOR Hugh and THE CHARACTER Wolverine.

It's one and the same thing. You get as excited and gleeful at seeing his pictures as you get upset when someone tries to criticize your favorite character and actor. And this thread proves it.

Or is this another way of saying I´m not articulate and I can´t defend my point of view clearly on this thread because I´m only a woman "squeeing" over Hugh, and not a real fan of the character?

Well i'd be afraid if there were men "squeeing" over the character

Way to be misogynistic...

No actually I consider myself to be quite philogynistic. Men just don't turn me on. :P

Oh happy day it will be!

He's all yours

 

[Goddessreicho]

Yeah, such a bond..."You´re going after her, Logan? She killed Scott and the Professor...she made her choice going with Magneto!"
Storm sounded like she wanted Jean to burn in hell...

Mebbe she wanted the genocidal mass murder to not be a genocidal mass murderer, seeing as how without the mental blocks she killed the Professor, Cyke, and all those people at Alcetrez!

Storm was trying to keep the X-men that she could alive.

Wait a minute...HOW DARE SHE! Arrrrg lol

As for that bond...well the trip to Boston in X2 was only about 20 mins in a super sonic jet, not really alot of time to form an on screen bond. And since Storm never got a back story, we will never know what she thought about those around her. So sad, but true.

 

[Loganbabe]

Like Wolverine, Storm too is a complex character who can show as much anger as she can show compassion.

Oh, wasn´t Wolverine a one-dimensional, simplistic character?

Now that's exagerrating things a bit, isn't it? Obviously fans of Singer who keep up with his work and interviews, commentaries, etc will be more familior with his style and intentions than those who just flat-out hate him without bothering to do their research.

X2 is one of my favorite films of all time, so I like Singer all right. I´ve read a lot of his interviews, and I´ve never seen him talking about Cyke as a main character. Actually, Singer talked very little about his X3 plans, and it was always something vague, like "Oh, yeah, the Phoenix saga is a great story, maybe I´ll use it."

It's one and the same thing. You get as excited and gleeful at seeing his pictures as you get upset when someone tries to criticize your favorite character and actor. And this thread proves it.

Proves what? That you also get upset when someone tries to criticize your beloved Cyke, and even the actor who plays him? I don´t know if the "excited and gleeful" part applies to you, but you´re much more obsessed about Cyclops than I am about Wolverine or Hugh. Just take a look at my number of posts and yours. And I´ve been here longer than you.
It´s kind of strange that you keep checking what´s happening on Hugh/Wolverine´s thread, if you don´t care about the actor and you hate Wolverine in X3.
I think it proves my theory that Wolvie haters are, deep down, fascinated by him. You wouldn´t see me dead on a Cyke thread, not even to badmouth the character.

Well i'd be afraid if there were men "squeeing" over the character

There are a lot of guys who think Wolvie is hot, too! Good for them, I say.

He's all yours

If only...unfortunately I have to share him with millions of other fans...

 

[danoyse]

That's drama? That's a deep, complex character backgrund? All that tells me is that it hurts to extend claws.

So your character study ends at Cyclops, does it?

It wasn't just that they physically hurt when they come out...he knows they're tied into his past that he can't figure out that's wrecked him emotionally for years, he does things he can't always control when they're unleashed.

They don't just hurt him--they hurt the people around him, which is demonstrated a few scenes later when he accidentally stabs Rogue.

I doubt it, as Jean also explains to Logan that Scott's concept of "control" is a good one, especially since without his glasses he could end up blowing a hole through the side of a mountain.

And I doubt that, because his mountain-destoying powers were not mentioned once in the film.

That's fine, as long as you don't start talking about how complex and beautiful Wolverine's background is, which we don't see in the movies either.

Again, a hell of a lot more than we saw about Cyclops.

 

[danoyse]

Proves what? That you also get upset when someone tries to criticize your beloved Cyke, and even the actor who plays him? I don´t know if the "excited and gleeful" part applies to you, but you´re much more obsessed about Cyclops than I am about Wolverine or Hugh. Just take a look at my number of posts and yours. And I´ve been here longer than you.
It´s kind of strange that you keep checking what´s happening on Hugh/Wolverine´s thread, if you don´t care about the actor and you hate Wolverine in X3.

Exactly! That's what it all comes down to, doesn't it? That anyone who thought Wolverine was a far more fascinating character is a crazed-Hugh fan on a mission to take down both Cyclops and James Marsden.

That we couldn't possibly understand your heartache about the way he was portrayed on screen, even though we've repeatedly agreed with you that the character did get the shaft, and just offered opinions as to why things happened the way we did, and why we like the other character better.

But we're just trying to bring you all down with our lunatic rantings, because it's so easy to be us, isn't it?

There are a lot of guys who think Wolvie is hot, too! Good for them, I say.

I know at least two guys who think that way.

If only...unfortunately I have to share him with millions of other fans...

Yup. But he's fun to watch, isn't he?

 

[weatherwitch]

Man this is getting almost as bad as the whole Jean vs Storm wars of days past.

Poor, poor Logan. So misunderstood. Such a tragic hero with so much depth. Like a shallow puddle of spit.

Did I mention he was my second favorite X-Man? But even as such I can see too much time was dedicated to him in the movies and don't even get me started on his borderline Superman antics in teh comics. Wolverine is now Fox/Marvel's ****e. What happens when something is shoved down your throats? Oh, that's right, you gag.

 

[Loganbabe]

Man this is getting almost as bad as the whole Jean vs Storm wars of days past.

When defending Wolverine, people like me and danoyse have always tried to keep the discussions on a high level, even when called "jerks" or "Rothman´s *******".
But what are you trying to accomplish when you say things like these?

Poor, poor Logan. So misunderstood. Such a tragic hero with so much depth. Like a shallow puddle of spit.

You say that things are getting bad and then you go and offend the character just for the sake of it.
I really don´t get some of the people around this board. It seems they´re only happy when saying nasty things about the movie or some of the characters, specially Wolverine.
Okay, people are free to do whatever they want, but I just think there are more productive things to do. Like for example, you can make your own "Anti-Wolverine" board or the "Anti-X3" board. Good luck.

Did I mention he was my second favorite X-Man? But even as such I can see too much time was dedicated to him in the movies and don't even get me started on his borderline Superman antics in teh comics. Wolverine is now Fox/Marvel's ****e. What happens when something is shoved down your throats? Oh, that's right, you gag.

Well, speak for yourself, he´s not being shoved down MY throat. I hate it when people imply that I like Wolverine because Marvel or Fox are forcing me or brainwashing me to do so. I don´t read every title he´s in. And I have some problems with the way he´s being written in some titles nowadays, but it doesn´t mean I´m going to start hating the character. That´s absurd.

 

[chaseter]

I like Wolverine and see the movieverse Wolverine as just another adaptation of a great character. Things have to be changed with each concept of the character and I understand these things and don't sit on here and whine about all the injustice going on to the character.

 

[Cosmic Mind]

don't hate the character, like I said, hate those who are using in the character in the wrong way

 

[weatherwitch]

When defending Wolverine, people like me and danoyse have always tried to keep the discussions on a high level, even when called "jerks" or "Rothman´s *******".
But what are you trying to accomplish when you say things like these?

Man this is getting almost as bad as the whole Jean vs Storm wars of days past.

Poor, poor Logan. So misunderstood. Such a tragic hero with so much depth. Like a shallow puddle of spit.

You say that things are getting bad and then you go and offend the character just for the sake of it.
I really don´t get some of the people around this board. It seems they´re only happy when saying nasty things about the movie or some of the characters, specially Wolverine.
Okay, people are free to do whatever they want, but I just think there are more productive things to do. Like for example, you can make your own "Anti-Wolverine" board or the "Anti-X3" board. Good luck.


Well, speak for yourself, he´s not being shoved down MY throat. I hate it when people imply that I like Wolverine because Marvel or Fox are forcing me or brainwashing me to do so. I don´t read every title he´s in. And I have some problems with the way he´s being written in some titles nowadays, but it doesn´t mean I´m going to start hating the character. That´s absurd.

Okay, maybe I'm giving people too much credit here and assuming that they understand at all the sarcasm with which I post.

Poor, poor Logan. So misunderstood. Such a tragic hero with so much depth. Like a shallow puddle of spit. Uhm, you do realize he's fake, right? a comic character? That is all that this comment is making fun of. he has no depth because he's FAKE. He is not real, nor will he ever BE a real person and therefore lacks depth, understanding and the ability to taken seriously as a tragic hero. I don't hate any character. i don't attach real emotion to fictional beings. i enjoy the comics, Storm being my favorite, Wolverine second, and I enjoy debating the comics even more, but I draw the line at getting emotionally involved with them. Hate? please. No way in heck do I hate on a comic character, nor do I love them either.

I defend X3 and Wolverine, when needed, but the fact of the matter is Wolverine is getting serious backlash for a reason; and that reason is that he's shoved down the consumers throats. You may not feel that way--he's your favorite. More Logan= happy you. Great. Not everyone does. And that's ok too.

 

[gambitfire]

^LOL you gave them too much credit and it blew up in your face......haha.

LOL................ sorry.

It's funny that you would pull the he's not real card considering the Wolverine defenders have been using that one for days. Perhaps they never noticed the same need apply to them

As for your last statement i agree, i never said it but it's obvious the reason.

 

[x-fan]

well this i my last post in this thread. there is no reason to hate the character of wolverine, the suits in charge of the comics and movies maybe because they and the writers cant handle a large cast and they go for what is well the cool element and then they shove it down your throat. i have said repeatedly that cyke was used incorrectly shoot all of them were. but to blame wolverine for being cool or mysterious or to powerful is rediculious. it was poor writing it was the studios insisting on more wolverine/ jackman. YES CYKE GOT THE SHAFT I AGREE WITH YOU, BUT SO DID EVERYONE ELSE. i am not a rogue fan but she was never rogue from the comics not in one scene, storm wasnt storm not in one scene and it goes for everyone in the movie including wolverine. he would never say im sorry tough guys have a hard time doing that. he has led the xmen in the comics but here it out of place, but i think here is why none of these movies can give us thirty years of build up it takes time to give developement to all these characters and the wasnt enough of it. unless the were filming a direct story line to film ala sin city, you couldnt give the fans what they want i would have rather had a direct translation myself and buy listening to you al complain i think most of you would have too. minor tweaks here and there like the bright costumes or a more blievable cole scheme yes. well my rant is complete, i didnt finish what i wanted to say but i feel it is probably pointless, you will either blow right by it or throw out what i have to say and continue with you complaining that your favorite characters got screwed why cant you all see it ......to infinity. well they did all of them because they were hollywoodized(is that a word lol) happy compl..posting i mean

later.

 

[Loganbabe]

Okay, maybe I'm giving people too much credit here and assuming that they understand at all the sarcasm with which I post.

I understand sarcasm, but if you felt the need to be sarcastic about the whole situation, maybe you should have included Cyke and his fans as well. He´s as fake as Wolverine, you know.

Uhm, you do realize he's fake, right? a comic character? That is all that this comment is making fun of. he has no depth because he's FAKE. He is not real, nor will he ever BE a real person and therefore lacks depth, understanding and the ability to taken seriously as a tragic hero.

Sorry, I think you´re missing the point here. Actually, I think you´re dismissing everything Art stands for. Because, if people are not supposed to care about fictional characters, what´s the point of writing books or making movies?
People have cared for fictional beings for ages. From Ulisses to E.T., from Cathy and Heathcliff to Holden Caulfield, from Spartacus to Han Solo, from Superman to Spider-Man. And it´s not because they´re not real that they can´t have depth, understanding or the ability to be taken seriously as tragic heroes. After all, they represent us in so many ways that Flaubert once said: "Madame Bovary, c'est moi."

I don't hate any character. i don't attach real emotion to fictional beings. i enjoy the comics, Storm being my favorite, Wolverine second, and I enjoy debating the comics even more, but I draw the line at getting emotionally involved with them. Hate? please. No way in heck do I hate on a comic character, nor do I love them either.

Well, okay...as I´ve said many times here, I do find strange that so many people invest so much energy hating a fictional character or a movie. I´m hanging around because I liked X3, otherwise I wouldn´t see the point of staying just to attack people who were satisfied with the movie.
Now, love is a different thing. Not obsessive love, or caring more about fictional characters than for your family and friends, because that´s twisted. But caring about fictional characters made me care about the art of writing a good book, or making a good movie. And these are important things in my life, but I understand that some people don´t feel the same attachment to books, movies, plays, and even comic books.

More Logan= happy you. Great. Not everyone does. And that's ok too.

Not always more Logan makes me a happy person. Now, Good Written Logan = . I don´t read all the comics he´s in, usually there´s very bad writing when the writers have to use Wolverine but don´t know HOW to use him. So I read some good fanfiction and I love the movies, and yeah, that keeps me happy.
So of course it´s ok if people dislike Logan, I just have the same right to like him and express it on this board.

 

[weatherwitch]

I understand sarcasm, but if you felt the need to be sarcastic about the whole situation, maybe you should have included Cyke and his fans as well. He´s as fake as Wolverine, you know.

Believe me, I was. on the Cyke thread before the movie and everyone on there was in mourning for their "loss". So, yup, I do equal opportunity sarcasm. No worries.

Sorry, I think you´re missing the point here. Actually, I think you´re dismissing everything Art stands for. Because, if people are not supposed to care about fictional characters, what´s the point of writing books or making movies?
People have cared for fictional beings for ages. From Ulisses to E.T., from Cathy and Heathcliff to Holden Caulfield, from Spartacus to Han Solo, from Superman to Spider-Man. And it´s not because they´re not real that they can´t have depth, understanding or the ability to be taken seriously as tragic heroes. After all, they represent us in so many ways that Flaubert once said: "Madame Bovary, c'est moi."

No, not dismissing art at all. I'm an artist, and a writer. I do develop ties to my characters and those in good books. When they become alive for me. Wolverine, however, hasn't done that in a dogs age. Marvel hasn't done that in forever. Period. And that's my opinion. But, I don't defend the characters like their real people. I defend the writer, and what they may have been trying to accomplish with their character. I don't try and psychoanalyze a fictional creation other than my own, nor try and get people to view them as I do. Fiction is open for interpretation and no broader range is given than in comics. Sorry, but Marvel's characters (ALL of them) have lately lost depth and become shallow, two dimensional replicas of what they once were.

Well, okay...as I´ve said many times here, I do find strange that so many people invest so much energy hating a fictional character or a movie. I´m hanging around because I liked X3, otherwise I wouldn´t see the point of staying just to attack people who were satisfied with the movie.
Now, love is a different thing. Not obsessive love, or caring more about fictional characters than for your family and friends, because that´s twisted. But caring about fictional characters made me care about the art of writing a good book, or making a good movie. And these are important things in my life, but I understand that some people don´t feel the same attachment to books, movies, plays, and even comic books.


Not always more Logan makes me a happy person. Now, Good Written Logan = . I don´t read all the comics he´s in, usually there´s very bad writing when the writers have to use Wolverine but don´t know HOW to use him. So I read some good fanfiction and I love the movies, and yeah, that keeps me happy.
So of course it´s ok if people dislike Logan, I just have the same right to like him and express it on this board.

No one is contending your right to like Wolverine. Least of all me. He is my second favorite comic character. I just liked him more when he wasn't on every damn tee shirt, or handing out cliche lines, or super human. I liked him moody and gruff, a bit off set and couldn't heal in a heartbeat. That's the Logan I like.

 

[gambitfire]

well this i my last post in this thread. there is no reason to hate the character of wolverine, the suits in charge of the comics and movies maybe because they and the writers cant handle a large cast and they go for what is well the cool element and then they shove it down your throat. i have said repeatedly that cyke was used incorrectly shoot all of them were. but to blame wolverine for being cool or mysterious or to powerful is rediculious. it was poor writing it was the studios insisting on more wolverine/ jackman. YES CYKE GOT THE SHAFT I AGREE WITH YOU, BUT SO DID EVERYONE ELSE. i am not a rogue fan but she was never rogue from the comics not in one scene, storm wasnt storm not in one scene and it goes for everyone in the movie including wolverine. he would never say im sorry tough guys have a hard time doing that. he has led the xmen in the comics but here it out of place, but i think here is why none of these movies can give us thirty years of build up it takes time to give developement to all these characters and the wasnt enough of it. unless the were filming a direct story line to film ala sin city, you couldnt give the fans what they want i would have rather had a direct translation myself and buy listening to you al complain i think most of you would have too. minor tweaks here and there like the bright costumes or a more blievable cole scheme yes. well my rant is complete, i didnt finish what i wanted to say but i feel it is probably pointless, you will either blow right by it or throw out what i have to say and continue with you complaining that your favorite characters got screwed why cant you all see it ......to infinity. well they did all of them because they were hollywoodized(is that a word lol) happy compl..posting i mean

later.

LOL

1st of all I know everyone else got shafted which is why i hated the movie, not just cuz of CYke .

2nd of all He barely ever lead them in the comics it's a one hand count.

3rd of all the hate for the character on My behalf isn't so much hate as it is sick of. Not just because of the movies but the comics books ****ed him like crazy and after a while i just got sick of it. With everything being about him, there was no mystery left to the character. Well to be honest i was never really fond of him to begin with .

4th of all I've been with you all along, blaming FOX, the writers, and the lousy Director who was nothing more than a studio dummy. So there is no denying they "hollywoodized" it.....

 

[ntcrawler]

I just liked him more when he wasn't on every damn tee shirt, or handing out cliche lines, or super human. I liked him moody and gruff, a bit off set and couldn't heal in a heartbeat. That's the Logan I like.

That's the kind of Logan I liked as well. Espeically the part about his healing powers having limitations so he didn't just instantly get up and regrow entire organs as fast as a godlike being can distintegrate them.

And as you said, giving out too much candy can make people sick.

 

[Loganbabe]

No, not dismissing art at all. I'm an artist, and a writer. I do develop ties to my characters and those in good books. When they become alive for me. Wolverine, however, hasn't done that in a dogs age. Marvel hasn't done that in forever. Period. And that's my opinion.

Okay, but even if Marvel is screwing up with characters and stories lately, you still have the essence of the characters you like. You know what attracted you to the character in the first place, and you know that in a way it´s still there. You can find that essence reading a good fanfic, or, at least in my case, watching the movies.

I don't try and psychoanalyze a fictional creation other than my own, nor try and get people to view them as I do. Fiction is open for interpretation and no broader range is given than in comics.

The difference from a character from a novel, for example, and comic characters is that a Heathcliff had only one creator, while a Logan has had many "fathers" and "mothers", people playing with his possibilities as a character, writers changing what other writers did before them, for good or bad. And it´s funny that even so, people identify themselves to what they perceive is the "real" comic character, who is in fact always changing. There´s no "real" Wolverine, there are many different Wolverines, including the ones we fans create in our minds.
But I can´t help having an attachment to Wolverine, or to what he is supposed to represent as a character. To his possibilities as a fictional character. I´ve read some really bad Logan stories in comics, but it doesn´t change what he means to me.

But, I don't defend the characters like their real people. I defend the writer, and what they may have been trying to accomplish with their character.

Fair enough. But I don´t think that when you defend a character you´re defending him/her like real people. You´re defending an idea; like I said, all the things that attracted you to the character.
Wolverine is an interesting character because his fans can be SO different. You have the teen guy who´s only interested in him because "he has cool claws and he kills people". And you have the other crowd who´ll say "ok, but he´s not ONLY that, you know...he´s complex, he´s the tragic hero and...". I hate reading stories where Logan is portrayed as just a stupid attack dog, but I guess many others of his fans enjoy seeing bad ass Logan in action, "and I don´t care about all this angsty crap...who is he now, a sissy who cries when people die?!" So, in a way, the teen boy and I are both right. Only, in my case, I´ll avoid the "dumb attack dog" stories, and try to keep my own perception of Logan intact.

He is my second favorite comic character. I just liked him more when he wasn't on every damn tee shirt, or handing out cliche lines, or super human. I liked him moody and gruff, a bit off set and couldn't heal in a heartbeat. That's the Logan I like.

Okay, that´s your perception, and in a way you believe that that character doesn´t exist anymore. I prefer Logan when he´s less godlike too, and I can find that in some comics and fanfics. That´s the Logan I still like!

 

[cyke93]

a lot of responses, but ill just add a quick 2 cents, im pretty sure others have said this before

the writers greatly expanded on wolverine's role, which in turned screwed other storylines and characters over. cyclops is just a prime example, but x1, x2, and x3 was all about him and especially x3 felt nothing like an ensemble but how wolverine can save the day.. n the fact that he's getting his own spin off anyways doesnt make sense for them to keep focusing the light on him... in x3, there was no time to realy get to know angel beast or colossus, they were just there and then back to logan.. or storm

 

[undomiel]

Sorry, I think you´re missing the point here. Actually, I think you´re dismissing everything Art stands for. Because, if people are not supposed to care about fictional characters, what´s the point of writing books or making movies?
People have cared for fictional beings for ages. From Ulisses to E.T., from Cathy and Heathcliff to Holden Caulfield, from Spartacus to Han Solo, from Superman to Spider-Man. And it´s not because they´re not real that they can´t have depth, understanding or the ability to be taken seriously as tragic heroes. After all, they represent us in so many ways that Flaubert once said: "Madame Bovary, c'est moi."

You are making some excellent points. It's nice to see a well-read individual posting on these boards. Don't let the others get you down -- everything you are saying makes perfect sense. (Oh, but it wasn't Flaubert himself who said "Emma, c'est moi"; that quote was from all of his female readers who resonated with the character. But your logic is right on. )