Why the hate for Wolverine?

Now, a word about the allegations that Wolverine took over as the leader of the X-Men. It may comfort some of the Cyclops fans to know that I didn't perceive Wolvie's activities in X3 to be a replacement for Scott. Even when he leads the team in battle at the end of the movie, I didn't think we were supposed to take that as a permanent change. I took it as Wolverine just stepping in for a time when he was needed. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me at all if the Wolverine spinoff started with Logan leaving the X-men to go searching for his past. But I disagree with those who say Wolverine "can't lead" or "isn't a leader". I think that opinion stems from a narrow view of leadership, and from a desire on the part of Cyke fans to defend the title of their favorite character.

Wolvie possesses certain qualities and skills that make him capable of leading in certain capacities, particularly in combat situations. His prowess in hand-to-hand combat, his quickness to act, his innate understanding of how to survive and how to win a fight -- all of these things do qualify him to lead, especially in the field. He is not a tactical leader like Scott, but this doesn't mean he has no leadership skills at all. The main reason Wolvie doesn't lead is because he doesn't want to lead. He lacks the motivation. He has suffered tremendously in the past; he is (understandably, imo) jaded and cynical about groups and causes and taking sides. But the beauty of his character is that, tragic as his life has been, he still knows the difference between right and wrong, and he consistently makes the heroic decision to do what is right in spite of all his suffering and cynicism. I believe this is one of the reasons why people love Wolverine -- because it's not easy for him to be the hero, but he does it anyway.

And, as a side note, I did not at all like the little pep-talk speech that the writers forced into his mouth in X3. (I'm talking about where he speaks to Bobby right before they leave for the big battle.) I, too, thought it was out of character, and I much preferred the dialogue we heard in the trailer, where Wolvie is challenging Bobby to think about what the kids are risking by choosing to fight -- it's much more Wolverine. I think they changed it because they were short on time; it's a shame.
 
My Red Sight said:
"Once again you think it's all about you" - Magneto X2

I love that line...

Unfortunately he wasn't listening :o
 
LOL. He should learn that magneto knows better... and can control him and stuff.
 
Actually, it was Xaiver who made him think that Magneto was after him in the first place. :)
 
My Red Sight said:

"Once again, you think it's all about you..." was a reference to the first movie, when Wolverine and Magneto met and Wolverine thought he was after him instead of Rogue. It was the Professor who'd told Wolverine that Magneto was probably after him.

In X2, when Magneto says that only one of them knows about Alkalai Lake, Wolverine assumes it's him...which is when Magneto says "Once again, you think it's all about you."
 
danoyse said:
In X2, when Magneto says that only one of them knows about Alkalai Lake, Wolverine assumes it's him...which is when Magneto says "Once again, you think it's all about you."


Yeah I was thinking the s ame way...
 
danoyse said:
"Once again, you think it's all about you..." was a reference to the first movie, when Wolverine and Magneto met and Wolverine thought he was after him instead of Rogue. It was the Professor who'd told Wolverine that Magneto was probably after him.

In X2, when Magneto says that only one of them knows about Alkalai Lake, Wolverine assumes it's him...which is when Magneto says "Once again, you think it's all about you."

No. Rewatch the movie. Xavier says he's not sure it's even Logan that magneto was after. It's the scene with the x-ray on the wall and Jean is explaining how she can't tell Wolverine's age, etc. etc.

Xavier never says that Magento is after Logan specifically.
 
prof x tell logan not to go looking for rogue because it would give magneto the chance to get him so yes he does
 
weatherwitch said:
No. Rewatch the movie. Xavier says he's not sure it's even Logan that magneto was after. It's the scene with the x-ray on the wall and Jean is explaining how she can't tell Wolverine's age, etc. etc.

Xavier never says that Magento is after Logan specifically.

I believe he says he's not entirely sure. Regardless, the fact that they are discussing an already established notion of Magneto being after Wolverine means that the idea has been presented. Also, doesn't Xavier pose a proposition in regards to Logan's staying at the school, asking Logan to give Xavier 24 hours to find out what Magneto wants with him (or something along those lines)? . . . Moreover, Xavier does tell Wolverine he is not allowed to go to the train station as it may serve as the perfect opportunity Magneto needs, believing Magneto to be after Wolverine. In addition, I think there is a later scene, after Rogue has been kidnapped, in which they acknowledge the mistaken "Wolverine is after Magneto" concept.
 
weatherwitch said:
No. Rewatch the movie. Xavier says he's not sure it's even Logan that magneto was after. It's the scene with the x-ray on the wall and Jean is explaining how she can't tell Wolverine's age, etc. etc.

Xavier never says that Magento is after Logan specifically.

Hello, WW!!

The closest reference is Xavier telling Logan: "Give me 48 hours to figure out what Magneto wants with you"
 
logan tells professor x "you said he was after me"

Prof x says "i was mistaken"
 
ntcrawler said:
The closest reference is Xavier telling Logan: "Give me 48 hours to figure out what Magneto wants with you"

He also tells him he can't leave the mansion "because it's just the opportunity that Magneto needs."

He wasn't sure...he even tells them "I'm not entirely sure it's him Magneto wants," but later he's looking at the X-rays and saying "What are you looking for, Eric?" and tells Scott there are more powerful mutants out there and doesn't know why he'd want this one ("Maybe it's his way with people," Scott answers) but he certainly made Logan think it was him, which is why he said "What is it you want with me?" on the train.

Afterwards he said, "You said he was after me," to which the Professor replied "I made a terrible mistake, I didn't see what he was after until it was too late."
 
undomiel said:
Wolvie possesses certain qualities and skills that make him capable of leading in certain capacities, particularly in combat situations. His prowess in hand-to-hand combat, his quickness to act, his innate understanding of how to survive and how to win a fight -- all of these things do qualify him to lead, especially in the field.

Ok Not too start anything but i most likely will but, i was remembering recently when Danger took on the X-Men she kinda knew the moves of every character and she got Wolverine on a leap. As in that's what he does, his quickness to act is pretty much head first claws in front. Remember the TAS series mostly? How many times was he the first one to attack in rage and without thinking? Yea i kinda can't help it but notice all those moments. :O

Sorry it's just something that bugged me about him. Also how he was always sent flying back or got knocked out :p.

Too be fair he can take on all of Alpha Flight (TAS), but then again who cant'? :p lol that was bad.
 
gambitfire said:
Ok Not too start anything but i most likely will but, i was remembering recently when Danger took on the X-Men she kinda knew the moves of every character and she got Wolverine on a leap. As in that's what he does, his quickness to act is pretty much head first claws in front. Remember the TAS series mostly? How many times was he the first one to attack in rage and without thinking? Yea i kinda can't help it but notice all those moments. :O


Yeah I noticed that too, it seemed to be his tactic. Extend claws and dive in head first. No doubt he'll be sent flying back and blasted away, but he has a healing factor, so he can survive. When the villain does that, the villain ends up revealing his own tactics / weapons / abilities, so the next time Wolverine goes in he's better prepared.
 
undomiel said:
You are making some excellent points. It's nice to see a well-read individual posting on these boards. Don't let the others get you down -- everything you are saying makes perfect sense.
Thanks, undomiel. :) It´s great to read your posts, too!

(Oh, but it wasn't Flaubert himself who said "Emma, c'est moi"; that quote was from all of his female readers who resonated with the character. But your logic is right on. :) )
I´ve always read it as a Flaubert quote, but since you mentioned it I was curious and decided to do a little search...found this in Wikipedia:

Realism aims for verisimilitude through a focus on character development. The movement was a reaction to the idealism of Romanticism, a mode of thought which rules Emma's actions. She becomes increasingly dissatisfied since her larger than life fantasies are, by definition, not able to be realized. However, the notion that Flaubert is criticizing Romanticism through the persecution of Emma is complicated by his remark, "Emma Bovary, c'est moi" ("I am Emma Bovary").

Many of his female readers identified themselves with Emma, but I guess some of the male readers, and even Flaubert himself. She´s a great character because she can be so stupid, futile and childish, but at the same time we feel for her and her doomed romanticism, because in her own flawed way Emma was trying to give some meaning to her life.
Maybe that´s why Flaubert identified himself with Emma...deep down, he was a romantic! :)

Okay, back on topic! :O
Wolvie possesses certain qualities and skills that make him capable of leading in certain capacities, particularly in combat situations. His prowess in hand-to-hand combat, his quickness to act, his innate understanding of how to survive and how to win a fight -- all of these things do qualify him to lead, especially in the field. He is not a tactical leader like Scott, but this doesn't mean he has no leadership skills at all. The main reason Wolvie doesn't lead is because he doesn't want to lead. He lacks the motivation.
Exactly! People forget that once Logan was a secret agent, he´s a man with many skills, well prepared and smart. I guess it´s because nowadays many writers prefer the simplistic route of portraying him as the dumb attack dog who heals fast. :rolleyes:
But anyway, he lacks motivation to be a leader because he´s too cynical, too disillusioned. He believes in Xavier´s cause, but he´s also a realist.
So I agree, his speech to the kids was much better on the trailer. It was kind of bitter and real, more Loganesque. I missed that in the movie.

But the beauty of his character is that, tragic as his life has been, he still knows the difference between right and wrong, and he consistently makes the heroic decision to do what is right in spite of all his suffering and cynicism. I believe this is one of the reasons why people love Wolverine -- because it's not easy for him to be the hero, but he does it anyway.
That´s the main reason why I love him! :D
 
Loganbabe said:
Exactly! People forget that once Logan was a secret agent, he´s a man with many skills, well prepared and smart.

But Logan forgot that too, so it doesn't count. Past lives and skills don't count if you can't recall them. Besides, this is the movieverse. Logan has no long history of being a secret agent so it's not something that can be used anyways.

I guess it´s because nowadays many writers prefer the simplistic route of portraying him as the dumb attack dog who heals fast. :rolleyes:

Yeah what a shame:rolleyes: But it doesn't seem to hurt his popularity. But can't account for bad taste on the audience's part I suppose.

But anyway, he lacks motivation to be a leader because he´s too cynical, too disillusioned.

Which is probably why he's afraid of people even more than Storm. Plus he's also a loner at heart. It's simpler this way. No one to watch out for except himself, no burden to worry about except his own.

He believes in Xavier´s cause, but he´s also a realist.
He also grudgingly realizes that Xavier and his cause are not BS, that this is, in fact, the real deal.
 
always argueing... said:
But Logan forgot that too, so it doesn't count. Past lives and skills don't count if you can't recall them. Besides, this is the movieverse. Logan has no long history of being a secret agent so it's not something that can be used anyways.

His metal tag... was when he was a nazi worrior... Rewatch X1 please
 
AznBABYBANDIT said:
His metal tag... was when he was a nazi worrior... Rewatch X1 please

Logan was a Nazi? What the hell did I miss?

Did the German's issue dogtags?

*is confused*:confused:
 
ntcrawler said:
Hello, WW!!

The closest reference is Xavier telling Logan: "Give me 48 hours to figure out what Magneto wants with you"

Yeah, I remember that now. If I was Logan I would have stayed at Xavier's too. I mean, he did just get his ass handed to him by Sabertooth, and as usual when a problem is too big for Logan to handle, Cyke's optic blast takes care of it. ;) Not a dig. It's a fact. In comics, in the movies, etc.
 
AznBABYBANDIT said:
Originally Posted by always argueing...
But Logan forgot that too, so it doesn't count. Past lives and skills don't count if you can't recall them. Besides, this is the movieverse. Logan has no long history of being a secret agent so it's not something that can be used anyways.

First of all, if you want to act cute and try to change the name of the person posting into something sarcastic, do us as favor and learn to spell first!

AznBABYBANDIT said:
His metal tag... was when he was a nazi worrior... Rewatch X1 please

I suggest you rewatch the movie since it's obvious you don't know what you're looking at. His metal dog tags are not German WWII military issue "[SIZE=-1]Erkennungsmarken"[/SIZE]. In addition, the tags clearly say "Wolverine". Nicknames like this were not put on the tags and would not be allowed. Finally, German WWII identification tags actually look like this:

http://www.feldgrau.com/erk.jpg

and this

http://www.feldgrau.com/erk2.jpg
 
weatherwitch said:
Yeah, I remember that now. If I was Logan I would have stayed at Xavier's too. I mean, he did just get his ass handed to him by Sabertooth, and as usual when a problem is too big for Logan to handle, Cyke's optic blast takes care of it. ;) Not a dig. It's a fact. In comics, in the movies, etc.

That and for once in his life since he could remember he was around people who were actually not BSing him and seemed to be for real, sincere and honest. And Marie appeared to be in safe hands. Might be a place worth checking out for a few days.

That and yeah, he was kinda sore at having his life saved by this puny, boyscout of a kid with the red glasses who was acting like the leader :eek:
 

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