Why the hate for Wolverine?

[undomiel]

But Logan forgot that too, so it doesn't count. Past lives and skills don't count if you can't recall them. Besides, this is the movieverse. Logan has no long history of being a secret agent so it's not something that can be used anyways.

Umm...not necessarily. For example, in the movie The Bourne Identity you have a case of a secret agent who loses his memory in an accident, but still retains all of his special training skills.

Which is probably why he's afraid of people even more than Storm. Plus he's also a loner at heart. It's simpler this way. No one to watch out for except himself, no burden to worry about except his own.

What do you mean by saying Logan is afraid of people? I don't think Logan is afraid of anyone. And why are you always trying to make Logan look bad? You know we aren't fooled by what you say about him. Yes, Logan mostly keeps to himself, but it's not for selfish reasons. When he comes into contact with most people they don't understand him and they misjudge him, just like you are constantly doing.

Besides, he took it upon himself to take care of Rogue, eventually risking his life for a vagabond little runaway who could offer him nothing in return. The scene where Wolverine takes off his glove and places his hand upon her face is one of the most moving acts of heroism I have ever seen. It was so personal, so sacrificial, and Wolvie was going to be absolutely crushed if she didn't make it! Wolverine does love, but it seems as though his detractors miss this.

 

[undomiel]

I

´ve always read it as a Flaubert quote, but since you mentioned it I was curious and decided to do a little search...found this in Wikipedia:

Realism aims for verisimilitude through a focus on character development. The movement was a reaction to the idealism of Romanticism, a mode of thought which rules Emma's actions. She becomes increasingly dissatisfied since her larger than life fantasies are, by definition, not able to be realized. However, the notion that Flaubert is criticizing Romanticism through the persecution of Emma is complicated by his remark, "Emma Bovary, c'est moi" ("I am Emma Bovary").

Many of his female readers identified themselves with Emma, but I guess some of the male readers, and even Flaubert himself. She´s a great character because she can be so stupid, futile and childish, but at the same time we feel for her and her doomed romanticism, because in her own flawed way Emma was trying to give some meaning to her life.
Maybe that´s why Flaubert identified himself with Emma...deep down, he was a romantic!

Oops, my bad! Thanks for checking up on it, though. I thought I remembered hearing somewhere that Flaubert's book created such a sensation that women all over France were crying, "Emma, c'est moi!" in identifying with the character, but I did not realize that Flaubert had said it himself.

But I love it -- doomed romanticism, I mean. After all, isn't that what Wolvie loving Jean felt like all along?

 

[ntcrawler]

Umm...not necessarily. For example, in the movie The Bourne Identity you have a case of a secret agent who loses his memory in an accident, but still retains all of his special training skills.

Fighting skills, yes. But if he doesn't remember who he is, he'll end up having skills he doesn't KNOW he has. And that's the point. He doesn't KNOW he can do something until a moment appears when he does it without thinking and suddenly realizes he can.

My point is that you're allowing Wolverine to have a background and draw upon these skills and experiences, but the other characters like Cyclops are not. We're either going to play fair and have a level playing field for all the chars, or not at all. Either they ALL have lives and experiences and backgrounds and complexities that they can draw upon that took place before the events or X1, or not at all. You're not going to be allowed to argue both ways and we're not going to be fooled.

What do you mean by saying Logan is afraid of people? I don't think Logan is afraid of anyone.

He doesn't trust people. He doesn't open up to people. He's wary of people for all the pain and suffering and the nightmares they caused him. Everyone is a suspect unless they can earn his trust.

And why are you always trying to make Logan look bad?

Not always. Just when he deserves it. I thought you didn't like characters who were perfect heroes. I thought you liked chars who had flaws and a dark side. So why is it that you always try to defend him when someone tries to point out those flaws or address his dark side?

You know we aren't fooled by what you say about him.

Obviously people who are blindly loyal to him don't take kindly to accepting any criticism, even constructive criticism regarding their favorite character. But don't worry, some people do acknowledge his weaknesses and limitations and flaws and do agree with what I'm saying. I know I'm not alone.

Yes, Logan mostly keeps to himself, but it's not for selfish reasons. When he comes into contact with most people they don't understand him and they misjudge him, just like you are constantly doing.

I've read enough Wolverine stories to have a pretty good idea of what the man is about. Maybe you're the one misjudging him? The way you keep coming up with excuses to justify all his flaws and the bad things he ends up doing to in order to protect Wolverine's image?

Besides, he took it upon himself to take care of Rogue, eventually risking his life for a vagabond little runaway who could offer him nothing in return.

Did you ever see me dispute that?

The scene where Wolverine takes off his glove and places his hand upon her face is one of the most moving acts of heroism I have ever seen. It was so personal, so sacrificial, and Wolvie was going to be absolutely crushed if she didn't make it!

Absolutely, since he made a promise to protect her and not let bad things ever happen to her. It's a shame that he's the only character the producers allowed to keep that promise. Someone else also made a promise to protect the person he loves from harm, but he didn't exactly get a chance to carry it out, did he?

Wolverine does love, but it seems as though his detractors miss this.

He's also not the only one who loves, but some Wolverine supporters seem to feel that it's only his love that matters, that no one else's love can possibly compare.

 

[undomiel]

no, no buts. I'm right at this point. Admit it. You're running out of arguments to refute this and it's not working.



And Romeo and Juliet exist only in the Shakespearean universe. Therefore if you won't let my example apply, then your example doesn't apply either.

Besides, extended universe is consdered canonical part of Star Wars movieverse., btw. Scott and Jean, however exist in all the known universes and incantations of the X-Men. This is hardly an alternative, "what-if" backstory but a major part of every story.

But what about the Weapon X saga? Weren't Jean and Wolverine featured as lovers?

So? Logan's obsessive love with Jean and him going in for the kiss and makeout session wasn't put in from the start, either. But Scott and Jean's relationship was was there from the start and was made clear from the start. Logan sees them holding hands, and Jean makes it clear they sleep in the same room. Then there's the part about "stay away from my girl". He should have taken the hint that she's not available. Putting his nose into forbidden territory is not a sign of devotion but of an angsy obsessive desire and disrespectful of an already established couple.

When Scott displays love towards Jean, you call it "devotion". When Logan displays love towards Jean, you call it "obsessive". You simply paste on the labels that you want to believe.

Yes, Logan knows that Scott and Jean are an item, but again, you fail to understand Logan. Logan plays by the rule that "all's fair in love and war". He approaches the situation like it would be in a wolf pack -- he goes in and challenges the alpha male, and may the best man win. In my opinion, Logan is the best man. I like his simple, direct approach. He's not sneaking around about his intentions; he makes them perfectly clear to Scott, right from the start. It's a gutsy move; no hanging back and kind of waiting around to see what Jean will do first -- no, no! Our Wolvie lays it all on the line. Besides, no guy can "steal" a woman from another guy. The only way Wolvie can get to Jean is if Jean herself has a change of heart and decides she's more in love with him than Scott. In the end, it's all up to Jean anyway, so stop acting like Wolvie is doing something dishonest. He's perfectly honest about his intentions and is risking some serious rejection. Most men are not that brave. Maybe that's why it takes some of them about a decade before they make a move.

They also don't know Logan's backstory either. Far as they can tell he has no backstory, except for running around in the back woods of Alberta for 15 years taking on odd jobs and making do with whatever he can. No hint at complexities, past relationships, romance, or the ability to love there either. I see none of the complexities that you and others like you keep swearing by.

No ability to love? You are clearly forgetting his relationship with Rogue -- he loves her very dearly! And I have no doubt that you see none of the complexities that we see -- that's known as a blind spot.

As far as Scott and Jean however, the audience doesn't need to know the full story. The fact that they are together and love each other and are engaged is enough. Logan's stuck fighting an uphill battle which he clearly loses by the end of X2. To simply try again simply because Scott's conveniently knocked out of the way is inappropriate and in bad taste, especially in light of the situation that they are in. And Jean never is seen to return his feelings. the last thing he yells to her before snikting her is "I love you". Does she ever return the feelings or say it back to him or hint at any way that she feels the same (hot makeout session while in Dark Phoenix persona doesn't count since it's obviously not Jean)? No.

Whoa, hold on here. First of all, I think it's very important to understand the perspective of the non-comic reading audience with regards to the Jean/Scott relationship. When we meet Jean and Scott in the movie, their relationship doesn't seem like anything out of the ordinary. It's boring compared to the sparks that fly between Jean and Logan. And I disagree with you -- Logan does not "lose" the battle for Jean's heart in X2, even though he thinks he does. Jean is powerfully attracted to Logan, in fact much more than she should be if she truly possesses an ideal, perfect love for Scott.

And you are wrong about Logan "trying again in bad taste" after Scott was knocked out of the way -- Jean had to invite, even encourage his advances repeatedly before he would touch her. And the real Jean was somewhat present in the medlab scene, even if you don't want to believe it. When she first woke up, she remembered how they met. She got upset when he asked her about Scott, and she begged him to kill her. None of that was Phoenix. And neither was her desire to make love to Logan -- she has wanted him to touch her like that for a long time.

Read the character bios on the movie websites. If that's not enough, check out some of the pictures of Jean. In some scenes, she's wearing what looks to me like a ring on that special finger.

They were supposed to be engaged in the movies, but it was never mentioned in the actual dialogue.

The fact that Scott was willing to ride 2500 miles across country on a motorcycle to follow his faith and the way Jean was calling out to him for months begging for him to save her, not to mention the deveastation he felt at losing her and the sorrow and despair she felt at the moments of her death, to me is proof enough that it was a very deep love. As for not playing out as well as it could have on screen, that much is Obvious, since the writers got rid of Cyclops before he could even savor a kiss during a moment of his greatest joy and vindication with Jean in X3.

So what? Logan did the same for her, and more -- he fought through many of Magneto's toughest villains to get to her. And Logan's sorrow and despair are every bit as great, even more so I would say, because Logan is far more passionate than calm, cool, level-headed Scott.

 

[danoyse]

My point is that you're allowing Wolverine to have a background and draw upon these skills and experiences, but the other characters like Cyclops are not. We're either going to play fair and have a level playing field for all the chars, or not at all. Either they ALL have lives and experiences and backgrounds and complexities that they can draw upon that took place before the events or X1, or not at all. You're not going to be allowed to argue both ways and we're not going to be fooled.

Not true. Nothing about Cyclops' background, outside of him being one of the first students and Jean's boyfriend, was explained in the movies.

"Doesn't that mean you were in the army?" Rogue asks Wolverine just after they meet, and he hides his dog tags. They obviously came from somewhere, even if he doesn't remember him...which gives him a background where the fighting skills would have come from.

Obviously people who are blindly loyal to him don't take kindly to accepting any criticism, even constructive criticism regarding their favorite character. But don't worry, some people do acknowledge his weaknesses and limitations and flaws and do agree with what I'm saying. I know I'm not alone.

That is so absolutely not true. No one is "blindly loyal" to Wolverine. It's been pointed out over and over again instances in the movies where that character was more fully explained, and how Cyclops wasn't.

You've come back time and time again with examples that are clearly backed up with your knowledge of the comic books you had beforehand. We just point out that as stand-alone movies, these explanations you to seem to find so clear just aren't there.

He's also not the only one who loves, but some Wolverine supporters seem to feel that it's only his love that matters, that no one else's love can possibly compare.

Again, totally wrong. You have to stop thinking that just because someone is a Wolverine fan, that we don't care about the other characters.

 

[ntcrawler]

Again, totally wrong. You have to stop thinking that just because someone is a Wolverine fan, that we don't care about the other characters.

Oh yes, with comments like "I don't remember Cyclops being in X2" that really tells me how much you care about the other characters. Is that another example of "blind spot"?

 

[danoyse]

Oh yes, with comments like "I don't remember Cyclops being in X2" that really tells me how much you care about the other characters. Is that another example of "blind spot"?

OK, that's the 2nd time you've taken that literally.

YES, I remember Cyclops full well in X2. The point, was that he was barely in it.

Not blinded by the allure of Wolverine that you seem to assume.

 

[undomiel]

My point is that you're allowing Wolverine to have a background and draw upon these skills and experiences, but the other characters like Cyclops are not. We're either going to play fair and have a level playing field for all the chars, or not at all. Either they ALL have lives and experiences and backgrounds and complexities that they can draw upon that took place before the events or X1, or not at all. You're not going to be allowed to argue both ways and we're not going to be fooled.

Wait a second, here -- all I'm doing is pointing out things to which the movies alluded. No one is trying to fool you. I don't read comic books, so I can't draw on that material anyway.

He doesn't trust people. He doesn't open up to people. He's wary of people for all the pain and suffering and the nightmares they caused him. Everyone is a suspect unless they can earn his trust.

And I'm supposed to take this as a bad thing, a character flaw? Trusting people is not a virtue in and of itself. If one trusts the wrong people, then one is a fool. Wolverine is no fool, and he is no coward either; of course his experiences in life lead him to be wary. Being wary is not a character flaw! It's also his animal instincts -- wild animals are naturally (and wisely) mistrustful of others. They could not survive otherwise. The pain and suffering he's apparently endured stir my sympathies and arouse my compassion for him.

Not always. Just when he deserves it. I thought you didn't like characters who were perfect heroes. I thought you liked chars who had flaws and a dark side. So why is it that you always try to defend him when someone tries to point out those flaws or address his dark side?

I never said Logan was a perfect man. He's not -- neither is anyone else. As far as I've read of your posts, you've never pointed out a legitimate flaw in Logan, so I object to what appears to be your false criticism of him.

Obviously people who are blindly loyal to him don't take kindly to accepting any criticism, even constructive criticism regarding their favorite character. But don't worry, some people do acknowledge his weaknesses and limitations and flaws and do agree with what I'm saying. I know I'm not alone.

And now you try to attribute my support of Logan to "blind loyalty". Couldn't be that your criticism of him is faulty, could it? And what do you call "constructive criticism"? And when have you ever accepted criticism of Scott? Perhaps it is you who are guilty of blind loyalty.

I've read enough Wolverine stories to have a pretty good idea of what the man is about. Maybe you're the one misjudging him? The way you keep coming up with excuses to justify all his flaws and the bad things he ends up doing to in order to protect Wolverine's image?

What excuses? What are these flaws of which you speak? What bad things are you referring to? You are not arguing here, ntcrawler. You are merely asserting. You offer weak criticism of Wolverine's character (such as the example above), and I point out the holes in your comments.

Did you ever see me dispute that?

Referring to Wolvie loving for and taking care of Rogue. Yes, I did see you dispute that; it was when you said that Wolvie only cares about himself because it's easier for him that way, not to be attached to anyone, etc. You appeared to have either forgotten or completely overlooked his relationship with Rogue. You also seem to forget that he committed himself to the X-Men at the end of X2.

Absolutely, since he made a promise to protect her and not let bad things ever happen to her. It's a shame that he's the only character the producers allowed to keep that promise. Someone else also made a promise to protect the person he loves from harm, but he didn't exactly get a chance to carry it out, did he?

So who are you blaming here? The writers or the characters? Perhaps it only reveals that Scott was too weak to keep his promise to protect Jean. It seems like when you point out something negative about Wolverine, you blame it on the character, but whenever something negative happens to Scott, you blame it on the writers. Not exactly fair and impartial, is it?

He's also not the only one who loves, but some Wolverine supporters seem to feel that it's only his love that matters, that no one else's love can possibly compare.

08-11-2006 02:32 PM

*Smiles broadly* Well of course it's true that I believe no one else's love compares to Wolvie's. But I never said he was the only one who loves. Sure, Scott loves Jean -- I'm not disputing that. But I do believe that Wolvie's love is greater.

 

[LastSunrise1981]

Wait a second, here -- all I'm doing is pointing out things to which the movies alluded. No one is trying to fool you. I don't read comic books, so I can't draw on that material anyway.



And I'm supposed to take this as a bad thing, a character flaw? Trusting people is not a virtue in and of itself. If one trusts the wrong people, then one is a fool. Wolverine is no fool, and he is no coward either; of course his experiences in life lead him to be wary. Being wary is not a character flaw! It's also his animal instincts -- wild animals are naturally (and wisely) mistrustful of others. They could not survive otherwise. The pain and suffering he's apparently endured stir my sympathies and arouse my compassion for him.



I never said Logan was a perfect man. He's not -- neither is anyone else. As far as I've read of your posts, you've never pointed out a legitimate flaw in Logan, so I object to what appears to be your false criticism of him.



And now you try to attribute my support of Logan to "blind loyalty". Couldn't be that your criticism of him is faulty, could it? And what do you call "constructive criticism"? And when have you ever accepted criticism of Scott? Perhaps it is you who are guilty of blind loyalty.



What excuses? What are these flaws of which you speak? What bad things are you referring to? You are not arguing here, ntcrawler. You are merely asserting. You offer weak criticism of Wolverine's character (such as the example above), and I point out the holes in your comments.



Referring to Wolvie loving for and taking care of Rogue. Yes, I did see you dispute that; it was when you said that Wolvie only cares about himself because it's easier for him that way, not to be attached to anyone, etc. You appeared to have either forgotten or completely overlooked his relationship with Rogue. You also seem to forget that he committed himself to the X-Men at the end of X2.



So who are you blaming here? The writers or the characters? Perhaps it only reveals that Scott was too weak to keep his promise to protect Jean. It seems like when you point out something negative about Wolverine, you blame it on the character, but whenever something negative happens to Scott, you blame it on the writers. Not exactly fair and impartial, is it?


08-11-2006 02:32 PM

*Smiles broadly* Well of course it's true that I believe no one else's love compares to Wolvie's. But I never said he was the only one who loves. Sure, Scott loves Jean -- I'm not disputing that. But I do believe that Wolvie's love is greater.

You see? This is the problem with fans like you and Wolverine loyalists. In my opinion you'll blindly just accept anything and everything in order just to see more Wolverine.

Let me educate you blind Logan supporters.

Logan cares about Jean, Logan has strong feelings for Jean. No one is denying that he doesn't care about her and that he's just an ******* trying to ruin a relationship. But in the comics and in the TAS he got the hint that Cyclops/Jean were an item and he moved on.

In the movie he refused to move on and kept on obsessing over a woman he's known for what? days? weeks? And then for him to show a bit of hypocrisy to Rogue by telling her, "I hope you're not doing this over some boy."

Yeah, okay, and here you are obsessing over a woman who told you more than once that she doesn't love you. Wow. She told him once that she didn't want him, second time she flat out told him that she loves Scott and not him, and it's because of fans like you that further proves the point that you don't know the comics and don't have respect for the source material.

Brett Ratner, Kinberg, Penn, and Rothman LOVE fans like that since they don't disagree with them and just accept anything.

As a whole I blame the writers, I blame the director, and I blame the Fox CEO Tom Rothman for not knowing nor respecting any of the characters from the beginning. Wolverine has an accurate depiction in X1/X2 and in X2 he ACCEPTED that Jean chose Scott.

So guess what? The writers pretty much just ruin any kind of continuity within X2 as X3 was meant to be the story of Jean/Scott.

 

[undomiel]

You see? This is the problem with fans like you and Wolverine loyalists. In my opinion you'll blindly just accept anything and everything in order just to see more Wolverine.

Let me educate you blind Logan supporters.

What is this "blindness" of which you speak? Please explain it to me. It seems to me like every time someone supports Wolverine with a good, sound argument, you guys just accuse us of being blind instead of countering with any real argument.

Logan cares about Jean, Logan has strong feelings for Jean. No one is denying that he doesn't care about her and that he's just an ******* trying to ruin a relationship. But in the comics and in the TAS he got the hint that Cyclops/Jean were an item and he moved on.

I'm thankful that you will at least acknowledge that Logan has strong feelings for Jean. But the movie is an adaptation; nowhere is it written that any film has to be a carbon copy of the source material. Maybe you preferred the Jean/Scott love story -- that's fine, but I prefer Jean/Logan. I just really liked what they did with that story in the films, the way they illustrated the characters and how it made me feel. It's not exactly like the comic books? Sorry to disappoint you, but I just don't have a problem with that.

In the movie he refused to move on and kept on obsessing over a woman he's known for what? days? weeks? And then for him to show a bit of hypocrisy to Rogue by telling her, "I hope you're not doing this over some boy."

Yeah, okay, and here you are obsessing over a woman who told you more than once that she doesn't love you. Wow. She told him once that she didn't want him, second time she flat out told him that she loves Scott and not him, and it's because of fans like you that further proves the point that you don't know the comics and don't have respect for the source material.

Comments like this basically secure my suspicion that a lot of anti-Wolverine people are misunderstanding some major points in these movies.

For instance: Logan telling Rogue, "I hope you're not doing this for some boy." It's not hypocritical at all -- he's trying to protect her against heartbreak! Logan knows how fickle teenage boys can be, and Bobby has already demonstrated a bit of an attraction for a girl other than Rogue. Logan knows that Rogue thinks, as so many naive teenage girls do, that if she can give Bobby sex, he will be pleased with her and stay with her. Logan is therefore concerned that she is going to make this huge, life-altering decision for a boy who is possibly only going to use her for a time and then cast her aside for another, leaving her not only alone, but also without her special powers. It's really got nothing to do with obsession at all, just a concern about making decisions she might regret for the sake of a boy who is probably too young and immature to truly love her.

This situation is not parallel to Logan's love for Jean at all. Logan is a mature man who knows what love is and is completely dedicated to Jean. As I've pointed out before, when Logan demonstrates love for Jean, some people label it "obsession", but when Scott demonstates love for Jean they label it "devotion". This is inconsistent and unfair. But it begs some very interesting questions about the nature of love, and of our own understanding of it. For instance, how long does it take for a person to know that they're truly in love with another person? Does it necessarily follow that the longer it takes to discover one's feelings, the greater the love? Is there such a thing as love at first sight?

I believe that Logan's love for Jean is a case of love at first sight, and I think this is perfectly consistent with his character. As I have pointed out many times before, Logan is very instinctive when it comes to people. He knows almost immediately whom he likes or dislikes, trusts or hates. It doesn't take him an age to figure out his feelings -- he is extremely passionate and very determined. I think this is incredibly romantic. I think there is something wrong when it takes people too long to know whether or not they're in love -- it seems to leave an awful lot of room for doubt.

So the fact that Logan falls in love with Jean almost immediately does not bother me at all -- it's part of his charm!

Wolverine has an accurate depiction in X1/X2 and in X2 he ACCEPTED that Jean chose Scott.

Yes, he accepted it, he took it like a man, but it didn't mean he ceased to be in love with her. And then he thought she died! At let me remind you, (because some of you seem to have forgotten this), when Jean awoke from her coma in the med lab, she practically threw herself on Wolvie! He was caught completely off-guard. It wasn't as if he was putting the moves on her.

And, for the record, I never believed that Jean didn't want Wolvie. She was powerfully attracted to him. She was obligated by her engagement to Scott to remain faithful to him, which she does because she is a morally upstanding person. Her choosing of Scott doesn't necessarily prove anything. I think she was falling hard and fast for Wolverine, which is why she had to slam on the brakes when he was kissing her outside the X-jet. It's not so much that a person says "no"; it's the way they say "no". Jean's not saying, "Ugh! Get away from me! What were you thinking? I can't stand you!", she's saying, "Please, please go away from me because you are tempting me almost beyond what I can bear, and I'm about to lose my self-control at any moment."

 

[danoyse]

You see? This is the problem with fans like you and Wolverine loyalists. In my opinion you'll blindly just accept anything and everything in order just to see more Wolverine.

Let me educate you blind Logan supporters.

The only "problem" with Wolverine fans is your problem, not ours.

And your problem is that you can't accept any reasoning why fans like this character, because your opinion appears to be the only one that counts.

You know, we don't troll the Cyclops thread to gloat about his demise. We don't create celebratory threads dedicated to Wolverine's screen time. This cult of blindly devoted Wolverine followers you keep complaining about exists mainly in your imagination.

We can actually respect your opinion. Even agree with it, to a certain extent. We can state reasons why we like the character better, why they chose to expand his role over Cyclops' role...but your only response has all of us "too blind" to see the real truth.

There's no truth, there's only opinion, and we're all entitled to one. Why don't you try showing some respect for everyone else's?

 

[CapBeerCino]

Oh yes, with comments like "I don't remember Cyclops being in X2" that really tells me how much you care about the other characters. Is that another example of "blind spot"?

No, that just him. Read the "who's Gambit?" remark on the other thread. Some people must get a kick from rubbing salt...

 

[The Batman]

Actually, i remember a few wolverine fans gloating about his death awhile back. and i remember alot of posters on here constantly saying "get over it", and other crap like that

 

[The Batman]

What is this "blindness" of which you speak? Please explain it to me. It seems to me like every time someone supports Wolverine with a good, sound argument, you guys just accuse us of being blind instead of countering with any real argument.



I'm thankful that you will at least acknowledge that Logan has strong feelings for Jean. But the movie is an adaptation; nowhere is it written that any film has to be a carbon copy of the source material. Maybe you preferred the Jean/Scott love story -- that's fine, but I prefer Jean/Logan. I just really liked what they did with that story in the films, the way they illustrated the characters and how it made me feel. It's not exactly like the comic books? Sorry to disappoint you, but I just don't have a problem with that.



Comments like this basically secure my suspicion that a lot of anti-Wolverine people are misunderstanding some major points in these movies.

For instance: Logan telling Rogue, "I hope you're not doing this for some boy." It's not hypocritical at all -- he's trying to protect her against heartbreak! Logan knows how fickle teenage boys can be, and Bobby has already demonstrated a bit of an attraction for a girl other than Rogue. Logan knows that Rogue thinks, as so many naive teenage girls do, that if she can give Bobby sex, he will be pleased with her and stay with her. Logan is therefore concerned that she is going to make this huge, life-altering decision for a boy who is possibly only going to use her for a time and then cast her aside for another, leaving her not only alone, but also without her special powers. It's really got nothing to do with obsession at all, just a concern about making decisions she might regret for the sake of a boy who is probably too young and immature to truly love her.

This situation is not parallel to Logan's love for Jean at all. Logan is a mature man who knows what love is and is completely dedicated to Jean. As I've pointed out before, when Logan demonstrates love for Jean, some people label it "obsession", but when Scott demonstates love for Jean they label it "devotion". This is inconsistent and unfair. But it begs some very interesting questions about the nature of love, and of our own understanding of it. For instance, how long does it take for a person to know that they're truly in love with another person? Does it necessarily follow that the longer it takes to discover one's feelings, the greater the love? Is there such a thing as love at first sight?

I believe that Logan's love for Jean is a case of love at first sight, and I think this is perfectly consistent with his character. As I have pointed out many times before, Logan is very instinctive when it comes to people. He knows almost immediately whom he likes or dislikes, trusts or hates. It doesn't take him an age to figure out his feelings -- he is extremely passionate and very determined. I think this is incredibly romantic. I think there is something wrong when it takes people too long to know whether or not they're in love -- it seems to leave an awful lot of room for doubt.

So the fact that Logan falls in love with Jean almost immediately does not bother me at all -- it's part of his charm!



Yes, he accepted it, he took it like a man, but it didn't mean he ceased to be in love with her. And then he thought she died! At let me remind you, (because some of you seem to have forgotten this), when Jean awoke from her coma in the med lab, she practically threw herself on Wolvie! He was caught completely off-guard. It wasn't as if he was putting the moves on her.

And, for the record, I never believed that Jean didn't want Wolvie. She was powerfully attracted to him. She was obligated by her engagement to Scott to remain faithful to him, which she does because she is a morally upstanding person. Her choosing of Scott doesn't necessarily prove anything. I think she was falling hard and fast for Wolverine, which is why she had to slam on the brakes when he was kissing her outside the X-jet. It's not so much that a person says "no"; it's the way they say "no". Jean's not saying, "Ugh! Get away from me! What were you thinking? I can't stand you!", she's saying, "Please, please go away from me because you are tempting me almost beyond what I can bear, and I'm about to lose my self-control at any moment."

Why is it that every one of your posts amounts to "Jean only stayed with Scott because she was obligated"?

Maybe thats why no ones saying "You know, i see your point"

because even in the movies, we all know theres more to scott and jean than just "I stay with him because we have an agreement and i'm a good person"

 

[danoyse]

No, that just him. Read the "who's Gambit?" remark on the other thread. Some people must get a kick from rubbing salt...

A. Try her.

B. That's because Gambit was misspelled as "Gabmit" in the poll. There was even a "" after the question.

And rubbing salt? Please. Just because someone likes another character better doesn't mean we don't care about you. Try to understand this.

 

[CapBeerCino]

A. Try her.

My bad...

And rubbing salt? Please. Just because someone likes another character better doesn't mean we don't care about you. Try to understand this.

So you didn't mean to rub salt by saying you forgot cyke was in x-2?

Actually, i remember a few wolverine fans gloating about his death awhile back. and i remember alot of posters on here constantly saying "get over it", and other crap like that

I miss your old avvy

 

[danoyse]

My bad...

No prob.

So you didn't mean to rub salt by saying you forgot cyke was in x-2?

Of for the love of god, for the last time....NO. We had been discussing Cyclops' lack of screentime in X2, and I commented that "I couldn't remember seeing him X2" as a description of that lack of screentime.

OF COURSE I remember he was in it. I had been discussing things he did in X1 and X2 for countless posts before it. It was just an exaggeration...which our friend ntcrwler has been taking literally across about 3 threads now.

 

[The Batman]

I miss your old avvy

It was too small. i probably should've asked for a bigger version of it instead of getting a new one

 

[CapBeerCino]

It's never too late...

 

[LastSunrise1981]

I swear, arguing with some of these Wolverine loyalists is like talking to a brick wall.

It shows they don't know the comics nor the X-Men history if they say, "Oh, Jean stays with Scott because she feels obligated to do so." Wrong. She stays with Scott because she LOVES Scott. She doesn't love Logan. She cares about him much like everyone else, but she doesn't love Logan the way he loves her.

It's kind of like a Forrest Gump analogy. Forrest loved Jenny with all his heart, all his soul, and all his mind. But she didn't love him as strongly as he really loved her. But you know what the difference is? Forrest knew Jenny her entire life. Compare that to the amount of time Jean/Scott spent together along with Logan coming in.

What we're saying is instead of trying to argue with us and tell us we're wrong, just pick up a comic book of the X-Men, pick up a couple of copies of the animated series, watch X-Men: Evolution, and you'll see the point that we're trying to make.

Movies don't have to be faithful to the source material? Tell that to Raimi and Nolan. Why do you think movies like Spider-Man 1/2, Batman Begins, V For Vendetta, Sin City, Blade, X1/X2 and Lord of the Rings were so successful? Number one they had great directors behind the camera, they had respect for the source material, and had respect for the intelligence of fans and non-fans as well.

I understand you have a right to your opinion, and believe me, you do. But a lot of the arguments that some present are nothing more than fantasies based on unfulfilled dreams. If you knew the comics, understood the comics, watched the animated series, and understood the history of X-Men in general then you'd know the things you are saying don't make any sense and aren't based by fact.

Logan is more of a loner character. He's the anti-hero with a good heart and cares about others. This was displayed in X1/X2. The Logan in X2 where he tells Cyclops that "she chose you" is pure Logan. He accepted it, he accepted that Jean loved Scott and not him, and he moved on after finding out about his past and coming to peace with it.

Logan-::Runs by Jean::

Jean- Are you okay?

Logan- ::looks at Jean: I am now.

He was better because he came to terms with his past, confronted Stryker, and found his place in mutant life.

And for people to say Scott didn't love Jean as strongly as Logan did? Please. Who was helping her across the Lake and helping themselves get to the team? Who was the first one out of his seat in order to try get to Jean before she sacrificed herself?

No offense Logan loyalists, you're going to have to present a better argument.

 

[danoyse]

I swear, arguing with some of these Wolverine loyalists is like talking to a brick wall.

Only the brick wall can probably come up with a more intelligent argument.

It shows they don't know the comics nor the X-Men history if they say, "Oh, Jean stays with Scott because she feels obligated to do so." Wrong. She stays with Scott because she LOVES Scott. She doesn't love Logan. She cares about him much like everyone else, but she doesn't love Logan the way he loves her.

Hey, guess what these are? MOVIES. Not the comic books. Not a cartoon. Movie adaptations that took liberties with the characters, so people who were unfamiliar with the comics could take them the way that they saw them.

Believe it or not, plenty of people (myself included), had never read an X-Men comic or watched a cartoon before seeing X1 (I have read them since). It was not a requirement. And it doesn't lessen the opinion of anyone who didn't read one before they saw the movie because they didn't see it the same way you did.

And from a movie perspective...Jean was totally into Logan. Yes, she loved Scott. She even said "Girls flirt with the dangerous guy, they don't take him home...you marry the good guy."

For your information, admission of "flirting" does not mean she cares about him like everyone else. She loved Scott, and chose him...but in movieland, Jean dug Logan too.

It's kind of like a Forrest Gump analogy. Forrest loved Jenny with all his heart, all his soul, and all his mind. But she didn't love him as strongly as he really loved her. But you know what the difference is? Forrest knew Jenny her entire life. Compare that to the amount of time Jean/Scott spent together along with Logan coming in.

That's a terrible analogy. Jenny loved Forrest...she was afraid of hurting Forrest. Everything she touched in her life turned to disaster, she didn't think she deserved him and didn't want to hurt him. It's why she left.

What we're saying is instead of trying to argue with us and tell us we're wrong, just pick up a comic book of the X-Men, pick up a couple of copies of the animated series, watch X-Men: Evolution, and you'll see the point that we're trying to make.

Who's saying you're wrong? All anyone has done is pointed out examples IN THE MOVIES that state otherwise from our perspective. Don't expect me to fall to my knees and ask for your forgiveness because you've watched more cartoons than I have.

And what about X-Men Evolution? The one where most of the X-Men were high school kids...Mystique was masquerading as their principal while Magneto lurked like Darth Vader in the background. Who were the only adults/teachers at the school besides Xavier?? Let me think....oh! Wolverine and Storm!!

Wow, and they didn't need Fox, Hugh, or Halle to demand more screentime or deviate from the comics for that scenario to happen.

Movies don't have to be faithful to the source material? Tell that to Raimi and Nolan. Why do you think movies like Spider-Man 1/2, Batman Begins, V For Vendetta, Sin City, Blade, X1/X2 and Lord of the Rings were so successful? Number one they had great directors behind the camera, they had respect for the source material, and had respect for the intelligence of fans and non-fans as well.

And they've had their detractors as well. Go to any of their message boards, and you'll find plenty of outraged fans as well. I've heard Peter Jackson deal with upset fans in person about changes in LOTR.

I understand you have a right to your opinion, and believe me, you do.

Really? I thought I was a ADD-afflicted/Fox-Wolverine loyalist/who blindly accepts anything?

But a lot of the arguments that some present are nothing more than fantasies based on unfulfilled dreams.

What? Now I fantasize about things I saw in the movies? Because clearly, having a different opinion must make me delusional.

If you knew the comics, understood the comics, watched the animated series, and understood the history of X-Men in general then you'd know the things you are saying don't make any sense and aren't based by fact.

Guess what? I don't have to know the entire history of the X-Men to enjoy the movies the way I enjoy them. There's nothing wrong with taking the movies on face value and enjoying them for that. Obviously we had a much better time than you did.

I have read the comics since seeing the first movie. In fact, the day after I saw X1, a friend at work practically gave me the entire biography of each of the characters from the comics. I've seen the animated series since then. I know things are vastly different in the movies.

And I don't care. I like the movies. Deal with it.

 

[LastSunrise1981]

Only the brick wall can probably come up with a more intelligent argument.



Hey, guess what these are? MOVIES. Not the comic books. Not a cartoon. Movie adaptations that took liberties with the characters, so people who were unfamiliar with the comics could take them the way that they saw them.

Believe it or not, plenty of people (myself included), had never read an X-Men comic or watched a cartoon before seeing X1 (I have read them since). It was not a requirement. And it doesn't lessen the opinion of anyone who didn't read one before they saw the movie because they didn't see it the same way you did.

And from a movie perspective...Jean was totally into Logan. Yes, she loved Scott. She even said "Girls flirt with the dangerous guy, they don't take him home...you marry the good guy."

For your information, admission of "flirting" does not mean she cares about him like everyone else. She loved Scott, and chose him...but in movieland, Jean dug Logan too.



That's a terrible analogy. Jenny loved Forrest...she was afraid of hurting Forrest. Everything she touched in her life turned to disaster, she didn't think she deserved him and didn't want to hurt him. It's why she left.



Who's saying you're wrong? All anyone has done is pointed out examples IN THE MOVIES that state otherwise from our perspective. Don't expect me to fall to my knees and ask for your forgiveness because you've watched more cartoons than I have.

And what about X-Men Evolution? The one where most of the X-Men were high school kids...Mystique was masquerading as their principal while Magneto lurked like Darth Vader in the background. Who were the only adults/teachers at the school besides Xavier?? Let me think....oh! Wolverine and Storm!!

Wow, and they didn't need Fox, Hugh, or Halle to demand more screentime or deviate from the comics for that scenario to happen.



And they've had their detractors as well. Go to any of their message boards, and you'll find plenty of outraged fans as well. I've heard Peter Jackson deal with upset fans in person about changes in LOTR.



Really? I thought I was a ADD-afflicted/Fox-Wolverine loyalist/who blindly accepts anything?



What? Now I fantasize about things I saw in the movies? Because clearly, having a different opinion must make me delusional.



Guess what? I don't have to know the entire history of the X-Men to enjoy the movies the way I enjoy them. There's nothing wrong with taking the movies on face value and enjoying them for that. Obviously we had a much better time than you did.

I have read the comics since seeing the first movie. In fact, the day after I saw X1, a friend at work practically gave me the entire biography of each of the characters from the comics. I've seen the animated series since then. I know things are vastly different in the movies.

And I don't care. I like the movies. Deal with it.

Then present an actual intelligent remark instead of the same, "JEAN DUG LOGAN TOO!! LOLZERS!!! or "THIS ISN'T THE COMICS LOLZERS!!! THIS IS THE MOVIES!!"

Fox, Rothman, Ratner, Kinberg, and Penn love fans like you. You'll never question anything, you'll just accept anything and everything that is thrown your way because that's what they want you to do.

Just because I don't fall to my knees and worship Hugh, Ratner, Kinberg, Penn, or Rothman doesn't make me a prick either. Just because I don't blindly accept crap as form of art doesn't make me horrible either. I'm merely pointing out the obvious and trying to educate the blind/lost, but it definitely appears that you're part of a generation who is more into the "WHAM BAM!" action department.

By your logic then Jean should've had a thing for Magneto, Pyro, and Stryker too. I mean, they're dangerous people too and girls "flirt" with the bad guys.

You're logic is really failing and I think a few of your brain cells died when you type of your posts. I'm through arguing with a X3INO/Logan/Fox loyalist. You can enjoy the movie, but I'll continue voicing my opinion on what a ****ty movie X3 is.

 

[Lightning Strykez!]

LastSunrise and Danoyse....chill out.

 

[danoyse]

Then present an actual intelligent remark instead of the same, "JEAN DUG LOGAN TOO!! LOLZERS!!! or "THIS ISN'T THE COMICS LOLZERS!!! THIS IS THE MOVIES!!"

Why don't you try it for once?

I've never called you a "loser" (or a "LOLZER," for that matter). Pointing out that Jean seemed attracted to Logan in the movies, which have many differences from the comics, is an intelligent response, even if you don't agree.

Fox, Rothman, Ratner, Kinberg, and Penn love fans like you. You'll never question anything, you'll just accept anything and everything that is thrown your way because that's what they want you to do.

You're just trying to get this thread locked, aren't you? At this point, it probably should.

I don't think any of these people care about me any more than I care about them. Like I've said before...I've worked at Fox. I hated there and have no love for the place.

To insist that anyone who had the audacity to enjoy the film and accept differences from the comics doesn't make them brainwashed or stupid.

Just because I don't fall to my knees and worship Hugh, Ratner, Kinberg, Penn, or Rothman doesn't make me a prick either.

No one's called you that.

Just because I don't blindly accept crap as form of art doesn't make me horrible either.

You're the only one accusing people of that.

I'm merely pointing out the obvious and trying to educate the blind/lost, but it definitely appears that you're part of a generation who is more into the "WHAM BAM!" action department.

No, you're just unreasonably angry at anyone who liked the movie, and accuse them of being stupid.

By your logic then Jean should've had a thing for Magneto, Pyro, and Stryker too. I mean, they're dangerous people too and girls "flirt" with the bad guys.

You're not even reading posts anymore now, are you?

You're logic is really failing and I think a few of your brain cells died when you type of your posts.

No, you're running out of argument...other than tossing pointless insults.

I'm through arguing with a X3INO/Logan/Fox loyalist. You can enjoy the movie, but I'll continue voicing my opinion on what a ****ty movie X3 is.

Which means you'll continue arguing. Sort of runs around in a circle, doesn't it?

 

[Loganbabe]

And, for the record, I never believed that Jean didn't want Wolvie. She was powerfully attracted to him. She was obligated by her engagement to Scott to remain faithful to him, which she does because she is a morally upstanding person. Her choosing of Scott doesn't necessarily prove anything. I think she was falling hard and fast for Wolverine, which is why she had to slam on the brakes when he was kissing her outside the X-jet. It's not so much that a person says "no"; it's the way they say "no". Jean's not saying, "Ugh! Get away from me! What were you thinking? I can't stand you!", she's saying, "Please, please go away from me because you are tempting me almost beyond what I can bear, and I'm about to lose my self-control at any moment."

Exactly my words undomiel, thank you!
I have to say, when it comes to defending Logan around here, it´s always a pleasure reading yours and danoyse´s posts. It goes totally against the general notion on some boards - and here too - that Wolverine fans are illiterate, agressive and blind loyalists who are only posting because they feel "superior" or something like that scorning poor Cyke and his fans. Actually, it was from Cyke´s fans themselves that I have seen (and received) the majority of insults around here. You two have always been a class act.