The Winter Soldier Will this Captain America Movie be more serious then the last one?

[Joshua_B]

In "The First Avenger" there were a lot of humorous moments, including Fondue and the interaction among the Howling Commandos.

Some of my favorite funny moments...

• Peggy shooting at Cap's shield, after she catches him being kissed by another woman
• Col. Phillips: "I'm not kissin' you!"
• Howard Stark: "Hard to see what's the big deal..." (blast) "...write that down."
• Steve: "I've knocked out Adolf Hitler over 200 times."
• One Commando asking another if he knows how to shoot a HYDRA rifle, then shrugging after it blows up part of a building.

 

[The Overlord]

I see what you mean. Thing is all the heroes in CA: TFA used regular guns and bullets. It was the bad guys who used lasers and that's what made them formidable. They were an enemy well ahead of their time even by today's standards (that's why SHIELD was working on recreating their weapons). That's the out of this world element that made the movie pulp. The alien device and the weapons it created for Hydra. That was it. The Howling Commandos did not use lasers and killed plenty with simple bullets.

They could have easily made Hydra threatening without giving them laser guns. To the me villains were weak and really brought down the whole film for me. I liked Cap well enough, but the villains just didn't work and Red Skull didn't do enough over the course of the film to make a real impact.

That's why I don't like the movie's villains, they don't fit in with a pulp story from the 40s, they might work in 1950s story, not a 40s one. I still don't understand, how Hydra was able to make laser guns back in the 40s and why the US military doesn't have laser guns in the present.

These laser guns still felt like something from a mid 90s cartoon where they didn't want to have real guns because that would be too scary and offend the self appointed moral guardians, it seems more like censorship decision then an artistic one.

Whether it was mystical or alien in nature, the enemy searched for and used a super powered element against the heroes (not to mention it backfired on them like it always does). That's pulp fiction to me. Might as well have retitled the movie "Captain America and The Cosmic Cube" with Indiana Jones font.

That's not pulp fiction to me though, I would have liked the movie better if Red Skull was still a Nazi and simply had one giant doomsday weapon, while his underlings had real guns. That seems more pulp to me then guys with laser guns.

Again Indiana Jones had real Nazis with real guns. I'm not saying Captain America had to be Band of Brothers or something, but I would have preferred if the movie was a little more grounded in a WWII atmosphere, to me the laser guns completely took me out of the idea that this film was set in WWII. The laser guns did not fit the period piece aspect of the film and did not conform with 40s pulp stories, so to me it was distracting and brought up some plot holes.

So I am hoping, there will be will be no laser guns in Winter Soldier, at all. I don't mind laser guns in certain context and settings, WWII is not a good setting for laser guns and neither is a political thriller story. Frankly I was really disappointed with the first Captain America movie, so much so that I'm not that excited for the new one. I want to be more excited, but the first movie had so much white washing and hand holding, that I have lowered expectations for the next one. I hope the next film wins me over.

Again I hope if Red Skull reappears, he is driven by hatred, rather then just power lust, I really felt like Movie Red Skull was watered down from the comics, I think they have to do some work with him to make him more compelling.

In the comics Red Skull and Captain America have a good vs. evil battle, that is made interesting by the fact that Red Skull, is truly, monstrously evil. Red Skull in the comics represented everything that was wrong with Nazi ideology, he represents tyranny and hatred, he feels some people don't have the right to exist because they are different. That is a more powerful evil, then just another power mad megalomaniac with a god complex. For Cap to represent hope and idealism, he should be fighting a truly terrible evil, not a kinda of one note film serial bad guy.

 

[Savage]

I can see your point. I don't agree but I can see it. Lasers for you seem to have this connotation of censorship that I just don't see. I think it would be pretty lame if Red Skull got a hold of the cube and didn't use it to enhance his army in some way (which was the entire point of looking for it to begin with). If anything just giving Hydra regular guns and making them generic Nazis seems watered down to me.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess. From my perspective your version (no lasers, regular foot soldiers, a Red Skull who's just Hitler with a mask) seems like the watered down version and the only thing spectacular about it would have been Captain America himself (who would proceed to just mow over everyone since then The Allies would have the advantage). Nothing Marvel, nothing spectacular, just Captain America beating the holy hell out of inferior humans for two hours. If you create a powerful hero then you need to boost up the threat to match that power.

 

[RetrogradeOrbit]

The same sort and level of comedic moments that were in TFA will be good enough for me.
I definitely do not want the humour to be forced, in TFA all the lighter moments felt natural to me.
Which is great.

 

[Raiden]

I think TFA was a rather serious movie with humorous moments, and if TWS keeps that up it would be great; I don't want it to turn into MOS, quite frankly.

 

[Wade Garrett]

Except that could have been step one in promoting a dictatorship that would eventually serve at his cruel and sadistic impulses, I don't think Red Skull lost his cruelty under Brubaker's pen, considering how he treated his own daughter, I actually think Red Skull is more consistently written then Doom and Magneto are.

Movie Red Skull lacked the more personal acts of cruelty that comic book Red Skull had. In the comics, Red Skull likes to inflict cruelties on sorts of people, his daughter, his girl friend and random people who did nothing to him. Red Skull doesn't act cruel because it gains him power, he acts cruel, because he likes being cruel. Comic Book Red skull isn't just power mad, he will do cruel and sadistic things, because he enjoys them. That is what movie Red Skull is missing.

I can think of several instances where movie Red Skull was cruel. Shooting the old man protecting the Cube, then firing on his town. He already had what he wanted, he didn't need to inflict so much death and destruction. His line to Arnim about working the POWs to death, "we always have more workers". Escaping the facility explosion in the plane, and leaving Arnim to flee to his automobile could be considered cruel. The major one I can think of is executing his own man "We fought to the last man" "Evidentially not."

He didn't do these things to gain power, he did them because he is cruel. He views everyone else around him as his inferior and therefore their lives mean nothing to him. The whole nature of Red Skull's hydra is cruel, cut off one head two more shall rise, he basically built a cult of gullible, sacrifices.

 

[Loki882]

Also, you have a two hour movie versus decades of comics, so it's not even really an accurate comparison. If this had been a CA TV show, then I'm certain that'd you would have seen more of Red Skulls "cruelty." because they'd have more time. As some others have pointed out, RS did plenty of cruel things in the film, so I'm still not getting that complaint.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Okay, but don't think that is who the Red Skull is, it seems like something that is not as interesting as what we see in the comics. I also think Red Skull didn't do much in that first film and wasn't nearly evil enough, I would have less problems if they turned some other Cap villain into a just pulp villain, Red Skull for me, should always be pure evil.

Red Skull was a 40s villain and Cap a 40s hero. In the modern day, their dynamic will be different. Also, he wanted to blow up major cities all across the world. I think that is pretty evil. But, once again, more pulp/classic comic book evil. Which was intentional. For this reason, I loved him.

 

[Suzanne78]

I do think that, given the nature of the main villain in TWS, that it will be a little more dramatic for Cap. Not to say there won't be some humor - obviously from the first theatrical trailer, ScarJo and Cap do banter and I think the Russos stated that Mackie will provide Cap with some lightness.

They also mentioned that this will be one of Marvel's most emotional movies and they talk a lot about how great it is to have a villain like WS in it, someone with such an intimate link to who Steve Rogers was in the past.

Cap is a pretty stoic, old-fashioned fellow. There'll be some humorous bits but I don't think it'll overpower the overall story here.

 

[Bert]

So I am hoping, there will be will be no laser guns in Winter Soldier, at all. I don't mind laser guns in certain context and settings, WWII is not a good setting for laser guns and neither is a political thriller story. Frankly I was really disappointed with the first Captain America movie, so much so that I'm not that excited for the new one. I want to be more excited, but the first movie had so much white washing and hand holding, that I have lowered expectations for the next one. I hope the next film wins me over.

I think it would be more plausible for laser guns to show up in the present day be it Shield or whoever having them... Just because they were totally strange to have in the 40's. (which, they came from the Tessaract, all the explanation you need to realize none of this is based in reality.)

Not saying they should have laser guns again, but hoping they don't show up in the present because they were so odd in the 1940's doesn't hold water. If they show up in the present only we would just think "oh some genius invented that, its passable for a movie" It wouldn't be so jarring in the 21st century.

 

[Lord]

I actually took the first film seriously for the most part, and it seems the sequel will be increasing that as well. What's crucial to remember about Captain America is that he has none of today's cynicism or rampant depression. He fights to defend the values the U.S. was originally founded on, regardless of public opinion or party politics. As I said in another thread, "if Steve were real, he'd be the biggest opponent of political correctness this country's ever seen".

If Steve was real he would be more similar to Ultimate Captain America than any other Steve, which means he would say a lot of things that are not correct nowadays

 

[The Overlord]

Red Skull was a 40s villain and Cap a 40s hero. In the modern day, their dynamic will be different. Also, he wanted to blow up major cities all across the world. I think that is pretty evil. But, once again, more pulp/classic comic book evil. Which was intentional. For this reason, I loved him.

But Movie Red Skull doesn't have much of personality, he was so bland, Hugo Weaving doesn't seem to have any interest in playing him again.

Movie Red Skull wants power. Okay, why? What will he do with it? What kind of dictatorship would he create? If he is not a Nazi, what is his ideology? None of that is really explored, he just wants power, because he is the bad guy of the film. Comic Book Red Skull just has a much more developed personality and really Movie Red Skull barely did anything, he didn't even get an early victory against Cap, like many comic book movie villains do.

I think would be bit tricky to make Red Skull go from generic power mad megalomaniac to hate filled psychopath, without it seeming forced. You can do it, but I think there should have more hints of that in the first movie, more hints that his motive was hatred, not power lust.

Also, you have a two hour movie versus decades of comics, so it's not even really an accurate comparison. If this had been a CA TV show, then I'm certain that'd you would have seen more of Red Skulls "cruelty." because they'd have more time. As some others have pointed out, RS did plenty of cruel things in the film, so I'm still not getting that complaint.

Movie red Skull did bad things, but as a means to end, generic power lust. For Comic Red Skull cruelty and sadism is the end and means are directed towards that. That is the big difference. Comic Red Skull is way more evil then his movie counter part. The stuff in the movie is Comic Red Skull on a very, very good day, on a bad day, he would do way worse, for more petty reasons. In an Avengers arc, Red Skull was using chemical weapons to kill a bunch people in America, simply to torment Cap and there was the cosmic cube event I mentioned before. That is the difference, Movie Red Skull just a power mad villain, while Comic Book Red Skull sees power not as an end, but a means to inflict more cruelty. The difference is in motivation.

I can think of several instances where movie Red Skull was cruel. Shooting the old man protecting the Cube, then firing on his town. He already had what he wanted, he didn't need to inflict so much death and destruction. His line to Arnim about working the POWs to death, "we always have more workers". Escaping the facility explosion in the plane, and leaving Arnim to flee to his automobile could be considered cruel. The major one I can think of is executing his own man "We fought to the last man" "Evidentially not."

He didn't do these things to gain power, he did them because he is cruel. He views everyone else around him as his inferior and therefore their lives mean nothing to him. The whole nature of Red Skull's hydra is cruel, cut off one head two more shall rise, he basically built a cult of gullible, sacrifices.

Red Skull could have ordered the village in Norway destroyed, simply so no one would discover he found the cube or to make sure Hitler didn't find out about his presence there, he could have had the same motive for killing the old man. Movie Red Skull is bad, comic book Red Skull is a million times worse, he had thousands of Americans killed with chemical weapons, just to torment Cap, no reason for it beyond that.

I can see your point. I don't agree but I can see it. Lasers for you seem to have this connotation of censorship that I just don't see. I think it would be pretty lame if Red Skull got a hold of the cube and didn't use it to enhance his army in some way (which was the entire point of looking for it to begin with). If anything just giving Hydra regular guns and making them generic Nazis seems watered down to me.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess. From my perspective your version (no lasers, regular foot soldiers, a Red Skull who's just Hitler with a mask) seems like the watered down version and the only thing spectacular about it would have been Captain America himself (who would proceed to just mow over everyone since then The Allies would have the advantage). Nothing Marvel, nothing spectacular, just Captain America beating the holy hell out of inferior humans for two hours. If you create a powerful hero then you need to boost up the threat to match that power.

Daredevil is the Marvel Universe, that doesn't mean I would want to see DD fight aliens instead of thugs and gangsters. Just because something is set in the Marvel universe, doesn't mean everything from the Marvel universe should be featured in it, regardless of tone and context. Laser guns did not fit with a WWII period piece, if the movie was set in present time and Cap was fighting AIM, I wouldn't have a problem with the laser guns. The laser guns just did not the period and Cap being in the Marvel universe doesn't change that fact. I think they could have made Red Skull and his underlings dangerous, without using laser guns. Heck, in the Golden age comics, Cap was mainly fighting Nazis with real guns, if its good for the comics, I don't see why it is not good for the Silver screen. Red Skull still could have been a super solider and still could have had a doomsday weapon, that is pretty threatening.

 

[Savage]

One can argue that because Red Skull was so underdeveloped that it would be quite easy to give him more backstory and motivation during his next appearance. The movie did seem super focused on Cap's story above everyone else's and I do wish we at least got a reason why Red Skull wanted all that he did. One can argue that it's classic story telling or pulp villain characterization but it still does not make it good. Red Skull wasn't a bad villain but he didn't blow minds either.

 

[The Overlord]

One can argue that because Red Skull was so underdeveloped that it would be quite easy to give him more backstory and motivation during his next appearance. The movie did seem super focused on Cap's story above everyone else's and I do wish we at least got a reason why Red Skull wanted all that he did. One can argue that it's classic story telling or pulp villain characterization but it still does not make it good. Red Skull wasn't a bad villain but he didn't blow minds either.

Batman Begins was Batman's movie, but I still I understood Ra's Al Ghul's motives better then Red Skull's. There is a balancing act, between a hero and a villain in a movie and I think Red Skull ended up with the short stick in the last movie and to me it brought the whole movie down a bit. Red Skull had no real presence, he was just there. I think I hated Sebastian Shaw in X-Men First class way more, because his actions were given more weight and an impact. Shaw killing Magneto's mom seemed far more deliberate, cruel and pointlessly sadistic then anything Red Skull managed to do. I cared way more about Magneto's mom then that random guy Red Skull killed in Norway.

 

[Spider-Fan]

But Movie Red Skull doesn't have much of personality, he was so bland, Hugo Weaving doesn't seem to have any interest in playing him again.

Movie Red Skull wants power. Okay, why? What will he do with it? What kind of dictatorship would he create? If he is not a Nazi, what is his ideology? None of that is really explored, he just wants power, because he is the bad guy of the film. Comic Book Red Skull just has a much more developed personality and really Movie Red Skull barely did anything, he didn't even get an early victory against Cap, like many comic book movie villains do.

I think would be bit tricky to make Red Skull go from generic power mad megalomaniac to hate filled psychopath, without it seeming forced. You can do it, but I think there should have more hints of that in the first movie, more hints that his motive was hatred, not power lust.



Movie red Skull did bad things, but as a means to end, generic power lust. For Comic Red Skull cruelty and sadism is the end and means are directed towards that. That is the big difference. Comic Red Skull is way more evil then his movie counter part. The stuff in the movie is Comic Red Skull on a very, very good day, on a bad day, he would do way worse, for more petty reasons. In an Avengers arc, Red Skull was using chemical weapons to kill a bunch people in America, simply to torment Cap and there was the cosmic cube event I mentioned before. That is the difference, Movie Red Skull just a power mad villain, while Comic Book Red Skull sees power not as an end, but a means to inflict more cruelty. The difference is in motivation.



Red Skull could have ordered the village in Norway destroyed, simply so no one would discover he found the cube or to make sure Hitler didn't find out about his presence there, he could have had the same motive for killing the old man. Movie Red Skull is bad, comic book Red Skull is a million times worse, he had thousands of Americans killed with chemical weapons, just to torment Cap, no reason for it beyond that.



Daredevil is the Marvel Universe, that doesn't mean I would want to see DD fight aliens instead of thugs and gangsters. Just because something is set in the Marvel universe, doesn't mean everything from the Marvel universe should be featured in it, regardless of tone and context. Laser guns did not fit with a WWII period piece, if the movie was set in present time and Cap was fighting AIM, I wouldn't have a problem with the laser guns. The laser guns just did not the period and Cap being in the Marvel universe doesn't change that fact. I think they could have made Red Skull and his underlings dangerous, without using laser guns. Heck, in the Golden age comics, Cap was mainly fighting Nazis with real guns, if its good for the comics, I don't see why it is not good for the Silver screen. Red Skull still could have been a super solider and still could have had a doomsday weapon, that is pretty threatening.

How much personality/development did Belloq have in the Indiana Jones films? Or any James Bond villain ever? All of them are 1 dimensional, wants power or money because they're evil, and don't have development as characters. So, why is it okay for these franchises, but not okay for Cap when that was the feel they were going for?

Red Skull wasn't the focus of the movie. He was an old school villain in a film that strived for that old school feel. I don't see a problem at all.

 

[The Overlord]

How much personality/development did Belloq have in the Indiana Jones films? Or any James Bond villain ever? All of them are 1 dimensional, wants power or money because they're evil, and don't have development as characters. So, why is it okay for these franchises, but not okay for Cap when that was the feel they were going for?

Red Skull wasn't the focus of the movie. He was an old school villain in a film that strived for that old school feel. I don't see a problem at all.

I liked the villain from the latest James Bond film, he seemed really developed.

I guess it comes down to "different strokes for different folks", I can see the argument that Red Skull is written the way he is, because he is based on old pulp fiction villains, but to me that doesn't matter, Red Skull being based on old pulp villains doesn't make him interesting to me and unlike say Belloq, Red Skull is based on an existing character and the comic book Red Skull seems like a more developed and dynamic character. Its the same reason I didn't like corporate Doom from the FF movies, corporate slime balls are alright as a villain archetype, but that is not who Doom is, similarly Red Skull in more then just another power mad megalomaniac.

And I realize that this Cap's movie, but other origin movies had more developed villains then Red Skull. Ra's Al Ghul in Batman Begins seemed more developed then Red Skull, even though Batman Begins is Batman's movie. The first Thor movie was about Thor, but Loki got a lot to do and seemed like more of a developed character.

If the Dark Knight just had Joker being a generic bank robber, rather then an agent of chaos who is trying to prove humans are fundamentally evil with particularly cruel tests, then I don't think that movie would be as beloved. I think Movie Red Skull gets the surface stuff right, but doesn't delve deeper then that.

Hey if other people like movie Red Skull, more power to them, but for me Movie Red Skull didn't have enough going on for me to find him compelling, especially compared to some other comic book movie villains.

To tie this back to the main topic, I hope Cap faces a more developed and down to Earth foe in Winter Soldier. I think Cap works better fighting a more defined evil, rather then just another power mad megalomaniac. If Winter Solider is supposed to be a political thriller, keep the tone you would see a political thriller, so I hope there are no laser guns this new movie. Not every Marvel movie has to have over the top things just because it is in the Marvel Universe, I would rather keep a movie on a good tone, rather then just throw in over the top things, just because it is a Marvel movie, not all Marvel movies need over the top things in them.

 

[Mysteryman]

Developed ?
He was the Bond version of The Joker combined with Hannibal Lecter .
Well acted, but hardly original.

 

[The Overlord]

Developed ?
He was the Bond version of The Joker combined with Hannibal Lecter .
Well acted, but hardly original.

There was a method to his madness though.

He wanted revenge on M because he felt M abandoned him and left him to rot in a Chinese prison.

Not mention the fact that he tried to commit suicide in the end of the film and tried to take M with him showed his really hurt by M's abandonment. That is not the most developed villain ever, but I felt I understood him more then Movie Red Skull. I am not saying Red Skull had to be the focus of the movie, but I would have liked to know a bit more about him, we got to know other comic book villains over the course of a movie.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

I doubt it. The first Cap film probably should have been the darkest, set during WWII, Red Skull as the villain, but he ended up a pretty 1-dimensional maniac, and the grunts used laser guns.

Marvel have found what works for them, and that's is produce films that are appealing to the broadest spectrum possible, so they don't go too much in either direction.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I liked the villain from the latest James Bond film, he seemed really developed.

I guess it comes down to "different strokes for different folks", I can see the argument that Red Skull is written the way he is, because he is based on old pulp fiction villains, but to me that doesn't matter, Red Skull being based on old pulp villains doesn't make him interesting to me and unlike say Belloq, Red Skull is based on an existing character and the comic book Red Skull seems like a more developed and dynamic character. Its the same reason I didn't like corporate Doom from the FF movies, corporate slime balls are alright as a villain archetype, but that is not who Doom is, similarly Red Skull in more then just another power mad megalomaniac.

And I realize that this Cap's movie, but other origin movies had more developed villains then Red Skull. Ra's Al Ghul in Batman Begins seemed more developed then Red Skull, even though Batman Begins is Batman's movie. The first Thor movie was about Thor, but Loki got a lot to do and seemed like more of a developed character.

If the Dark Knight just had Joker being a generic bank robber, rather then an agent of chaos who is trying to prove humans are fundamentally evil with particularly cruel tests, then I don't think that movie would be as beloved. I think Movie Red Skull gets the surface stuff right, but doesn't delve deeper then that.

Hey if other people like movie Red Skull, more power to them, but for me Movie Red Skull didn't have enough going on for me to find him compelling, especially compared to some other comic book movie villains.

To tie this back to the main topic, I hope Cap faces a more developed and down to Earth foe in Winter Soldier. I think Cap works better fighting a more defined evil, rather then just another power mad megalomaniac. If Winter Solider is supposed to be a political thriller, keep the tone you would see a political thriller, so I hope there are no laser guns this new movie. Not every Marvel movie has to have over the top things just because it is in the Marvel Universe, I would rather keep a movie on a good tone, rather then just throw in over the top things, just because it is a Marvel movie, not all Marvel movies need over the top things in them.

That is a CONTEMPORARY Bond villain. Not an OLD SCHOOL one. I am talking about Connery/Roger Moore era. Not Daniel Craig. The Red Skull you're disappointed you didn't see wasn't the Red Skull from the 40s. The Red Skull you're referring to was the MODERN Red Skull. This wasn't a MODERN film, so that wasn't the Red Skull they tried for. They tried to make a film with a nostalgic feel (the kind of action film we loved growing up...Indiana Jones, Connery/Moore Bond, etc). Early on, the Red Skull of the comics wasn't much more than a power mad/evil scientist. He didn't even have the super soldier powers then! If the Red Skull comes back later, I am sure more modern elements would be used. They're already seemingly doing that for Cap 2. But, that wasn't the movie the filmmakers were making. Hence why I don't agree with you. The Red Skull they crafted fit the film's personality and I loved it.

 

[The Overlord]

That is a CONTEMPORARY Bond villain. Not an OLD SCHOOL one. I am talking about Connery/Roger Moore era. Not Daniel Craig. The Red Skull you're disappointed you didn't see wasn't the Red Skull from the 40s. The Red Skull you're referring to was the MODERN Red Skull. This wasn't a MODERN film, so that wasn't the Red Skull they tried for. They tried to make a film with a nostalgic feel (the kind of action film we loved growing up...Indiana Jones, Connery/Moore Bond, etc). Early on, the Red Skull of the comics wasn't much more than a power mad/evil scientist. He didn't even have the super soldier powers then! If the Red Skull comes back later, I am sure more modern elements would be used. They're already seemingly doing that for Cap 2. But, that wasn't the movie the filmmakers were making. Hence why I don't agree with you. The Red Skull they crafted fit the film's personality and I loved it.

But I don't like 40s Red Skull compared to the more modern one. Look at this way, in the 60s, Magneto was a generic power mad power villain, then Claremont turned him into an Holocaust survivor and anti villain who was fighting for mutants rights. Which version of Magneto is more iconic? I don't think I would have wanted to see Silver age Magneto on the big screen. Really Red Skull became way more of an interesting character in the Bronze Age and really those are comics I grew up with, so that is the version I was nostalgic for, not the 40s version. Plus Silver age Red Skull had a back story.

To me Red Skull being a one note 40s pulp villain doesn't make him interesting, I get that its a throwback to earlier serial villains, but I don't care about that, to me he is still a dull villain and I rather see Red Skull as a better developed villain, rather then a throw back to a time I'm not really nostalgic for. That's just my opinion, if other people like Red Skull as just a pulp villain, that is fine, but I didn't like him like that.

Also if you have removed the connection between Red Skull and the Nazis, already kinda makes him like a watered down version of comic book Red Skull. Even when comic book Red Skull abandoned Nazism for Nihilism, he was still a racist, sexist, homophobic villain and a Social Darwinist, his nihilism has a lot in common with Nazism. Red Skull didn't seem like a Nazi in the first movie, he seemed to display disdain rather then true hate. I think making Movie Red Skull into the more Nazi like comic book Red Skull, would be a bit tricky without seeming forced. Sure Movie Red Skull would be motivated by revenge against Cap now, but the depth of his revenge should be truly horrific, not just against Cap, but against a lot of innocent people just to make Cap suffer and I think Red Skull comes back, his cruelty should be given more weight and consequence. Have him do something really evil, something that really makes him seem hateful, not just power mad. I think it will take a lot of good writing to transform Movie Red Skull into Comic Book Red Skull and make it seem natural.

The thing is Belloq was just a one shot villain, he served his purpose and never came back, there was no reason for him to, I feel the same way about Red Skull, he is not interesting enough to make a return. He is supposed to Cap's arch nemesis, but there was nothing to rivalry in the first movie, so I just don't care if he comes back or not. Belloq was not supposed to the main villain of the Indiana Jones series, Red Skull is, so Red Skull should be more developed then Belloq, if he is going to be the main villain like he is the comics.

And for all this talk about the first movie being a pulp related movie, I'm not sure how many pulp stories from the 40s involved Nazis being replaced with some other group and mooks having laser guns instead regular guns.

 

[Spider-Fan]

But I don't like 40s Red Skull compared to the more modern one. Look at this way, in the 60s, Magneto was a generic power mad power villain, then Claremont turned him into an Holocaust survivor and anti villain who was fighting for mutants rights. Which version of Magneto is more iconic? I don't think I would have wanted to see Silver age Magneto on the big screen. Really Red Skull became way more of an interesting character in the Bronze Age and really those are comics I grew up with, so that is the version I was nostalgic for, not the 40s version. Plus Silver age Red Skull had a back story.

To me Red Skull being a one note 40s pulp villain doesn't make him interesting, I get that its a throwback to earlier serial villains, but I don't care about that, to me he is still a dull villain and I rather see Red Skull as a better developed villain, rather then a throw back to a time I'm not really nostalgic for. That's just my opinion, if other people like Red Skull as just a pulp villain, that is fine, but I didn't like him like that.

Also if you have removed the connection between Red Skull and the Nazis, already kinda makes him like a watered down version of comic book Red Skull. Even when comic book Red Skull abandoned Nazism for Nihilism, he was still a racist, sexist, homophobic villain and a Social Darwinist, his nihilism has a lot in common with Nazism. Red Skull didn't seem like a Nazi in the first movie, he seemed to display disdain rather then true hate. I think making Movie Red Skull into the more Nazi like comic book Red Skull, would be a bit tricky without seeming forced. Sure Movie Red Skull would be motivated by revenge against Cap now, but the depth of his revenge should be truly horrific, not just against Cap, but against a lot of innocent people just to make Cap suffer and I think Red Skull comes back, his cruelty should be given more weight and consequence. Have him do something really evil, something that really makes him seem hateful, not just power mad. I think it will take a lot of good writing to transform Movie Red Skull into Comic Book Red Skull and make it seem natural.

The thing is Belloq was just a one shot villain, he served his purpose and never came back, there was no reason for him to, I feel the same way about Red Skull, he is not interesting enough to make a return. He is supposed to Cap's arch nemesis, but there was nothing to rivalry in the first movie, so I just don't care if he comes back or not. Belloq was not supposed to the main villain of the Indiana Jones series, Red Skull is, so Red Skull should be more developed then Belloq, if he is going to be the main villain like he is the comics.

And for all this talk about the first movie being a pulp related movie, I'm not sure how many pulp stories from the 40s involved Nazis being replaced with some other group and mooks having laser guns instead regular guns.

Dude, laser guns and such are VERY pulp Sci-Fi. Your entire argument basically is about not enjoying what the film was going for. Yes, he is Cap's arch-nemesis. But, like Cap, he EVOLVES over time. As for the Nazi seperation, I didn't care. Hydra is more important to Marvel than the Nazis are and it served a thematic purpose (Red Skull's path begins with leaving the Nazis just like Cap's journey to hero truly begins with him leaving the USO show). Your comparison to Magneto is flawed. The X-Men didn't strive to make this type of movie like TFA did. Also, Cap is a more pulpy character than the X-Men are. It's like comparing apples to oranges.

 

[The Overlord]

Dude, laser guns and such are VERY pulp Sci-Fi. Your entire argument basically is about not enjoying what the film was going for. Yes, he is Cap's arch-nemesis. But, like Cap, he EVOLVES over time. As for the Nazi seperation, I didn't care. Hydra is more important to Marvel than the Nazis are and it served a thematic purpose (Red Skull's path begins with leaving the Nazis just like Cap's journey to hero truly begins with him leaving the USO show). Your comparison to Magneto is flawed. The X-Men didn't strive to make this type of movie like TFA did. Also, Cap is a more pulpy character than the X-Men are. It's like comparing apples to oranges.

But can you name a lot of 1940s pulp stories where the Nazis were replaced with another group and the mooks were wielding laser guns rather then real guns? I never say that in say the Shadow. Again it seems like a censorship choice rather then a artistic one, at least to me.

Maybe I just didn't like the tone of First Avenger and was expecting more of WWII period piece, which I don't think this movie was, it never felt like a real WWII movie. I simply did not the tone of the movie and I don't think it rang true regarding Cap comics set in WWII. To me it didn't seem weighty or serious enough, especially for a story set during the most brutal conflict in history.

Again this is just my opinion, but I hope Winter Solider will keep with a political thriller tone and not have goofy stuff like laser guns in it. I don't care whether cap is supposed to a be "pulp" character, but I would like deeper stories told with him, not just "pulp" stories, though I wonder how much TFA had in common with 1940s pulp stories. Because I didn't like the first movie, I have pretty lower exceptions for Winter Soldier.

 

[Savage]

I'd agree with your laser censorship argument if Cap and the Howling Commandos didn't burst into rooms shooting everything in site with every type of gun known to man. Not to mention Gabriel Jones running around with a freaking mini-gun.

Caps old comics from that period were not that serious. No comic book was. They were pretty goofy and if anything the movie made it more serious. All of that stuff during the musical number? THAT was the old Cap comics. I'm surprised that they didn't work in a "Slap a Jap!" reference.

 

[Spider-Fan]

But can you name a lot of 1940s pulp stories where the Nazis were replaced with another group and the mooks were wielding laser guns rather then real guns? I never say that in say the Shadow. Again it seems like a censorship choice rather then a artistic one, at least to me.

Maybe I just didn't like the tone of First Avenger and was expecting more of WWII period piece, which I don't think this movie was, it never felt like a real WWII movie. I simply did not the tone of the movie and I don't think it rang true regarding Cap comics set in WWII. To me it didn't seem weighty or serious enough, especially for a story set during the most brutal conflict in history.

Again this is just my opinion, but I hope Winter Solider will keep with a political thriller tone and not have goofy stuff like laser guns in it. I don't care whether cap is supposed to a be "pulp" character, but I would like deeper stories told with him, not just "pulp" stories, though I wonder how much TFA had in common with 1940s pulp stories. Because I didn't like the first movie, I have pretty lower exceptions for Winter Soldier.

Have read any actual 40s Cap comics? I am not talking about Brubaker flashbacks to the 40s. I am talking about straight 40s Cap comics. Authentic reprints or whatever. Those comics were not WWII period pieces either. Cap's comics have always been superhero books with a WWII dressing, and that is what TFA was. This was never going to be Saving Private Ryan guys. Sorry if you expected it. We were never gonna get it.