Civil War Winter is Coming - The Bucky Barnes Thread - Part 1

[Anita18]

Pretty much.

 

[Silvermoon]

Bucky still is. The guy would probably like nothing more than to just be someplace where nobody's trying to kill him, but he gets back into the fray to help Steve stop the bad guy. Then he sacrifices his own well-being again, to ensure he won't hurt any more innocent people.

It's not showy heroism, but it's still heroic.

Poor guy just wants to be left alone to eat his plums

 

[elementalrage]

Silly question, did Bucky really not remember Steve when he confronted him at his place? Or was he pretending?

 

[Silvermoon]

Silly question, did Bucky really not remember Steve when he confronted him at his place? Or was he pretending?

I believe he was lying (and Steve rightly called him out on it). I think he lied because he was trying to protect himself/keep his head down but also to try and (as ever) protect Steve - to try and push him away from what Hydra turned him into

 

[Anita18]

I believe he was lying (and Steve rightly called him out on it). I think he lied because he was trying to protect himself/keep his head down but also to try and (as ever) protect Steve - to try and push him away from what Hydra turned him into

Exactly.

What's telling (beyond whatever Steve might have seen in Bucky's eyes ) is that Bucky calls him "Steve." Not "Captain America" or "Captain Steve Rogers" or "Captain Rogers" or even "Steve Rogers." But just "Steve," like a friend would.

 

[Xeno]

I believe he was lying (and Steve rightly called him out on it). I think he lied because he was trying to protect himself/keep his head down but also to try and (as ever) protect Steve - to try and push him away from what Hydra turned him into

Yeah, he tried to "protect" Steve by using him as a human shield, chucking a bomb at him and throwing him at the cops like an inanimate object.

 

[Anita18]

Yeah, he tried to "protect" Steve by using him as a human shield, chucking a bomb at him and throwing him at the cops like an inanimate object.

I laughed at that part. I'm awful. Bucky is extremely resourceful.

Also, that's another sign he knows who Steve is, because he knew Steve would use the shield to contain the blast. And be okay getting thrown out the window and into the balcony shield-first.

And it's Steve that actually uses himself as a human shield for Bucky. Bucky is using his metal arm to deflect bullets off his face, when Steve gets up to use his shield instead. Then Bucky's like, "Well, you're over there already..." Ah, that sequence was so much fun.

 

[hafizbat]

Yeah, I love how that sequence showed that these two have had years of combat experience together, and it's still there.

I really wish the Russos did The First Avenger.

 

[Schlosser85]

Bucky still is. The guy would probably like nothing more than to just be someplace where nobody's trying to kill him, but he gets back into the fray to help Steve stop the bad guy. Then he sacrifices his own well-being again, to ensure he won't hurt any more innocent people.

It's not showy heroism, but it's still heroic.

Yep. And it speaks to the true character of Bucky. If he was an innately bad person, he wouldn't voluntarily put himself back in cryo-freeze, without knowing if or when he'll wake up, because he doesn't want to hurt people anymore.

Erskine told Steve that the serum amplifies whatever is inside a person, good becomes great, bad becomes worse, yada yada. I suspect that (and an imperfect replica serum) played into how volatile and violent the other Winter Soldiers were. Bucky said they were HYDRA's most elite kill squad with dozens of assassinations before they got the serum. So they were already ruthless, homicidal people.

Bucky had to be tortured, brainwashed again and again, and basically beaten into submission to function obediently as The Winter Soldier because he's not an inherently bad man. They had to break and twist and force him into a mold he didn't fit.

 

[Anita18]

Yep. And it speaks to the true character of Bucky. If he was an innately bad person, he wouldn't voluntarily put himself back in cryo-freeze, without knowing if or when he'll wake up, because he doesn't want to hurt people anymore.

Erskine told Steve that the serum amplifies whatever is inside a person, good becomes great, bad becomes worse, yada yada. I suspect that (and an imperfect replica serum) played into how volatile and violent the other Winter Soldiers were. Bucky said they were HYDRA's most elite kill squad with dozens of assassinations before they got the serum. So they were already ruthless, homicidal people.

Bucky had to be tortured, brainwashed again and again, and basically beaten into submission to function obediently as The Winter Soldier because he's not an inherently bad man. They had to break and twist and force him into a mold he didn't fit.

And even then, he doesn't fight for the sake of fighting like the other super-soldiers. He isn't affected by the sudden aggression level in the cell. He's directed to protect his handler, so he does. Just like his job in the Howling Commandos was sniping faraway threats, and even before then, it was dragging Steve out of alleyway fights.

Sigh, why doesn't anyone listen to Erskine? You think the Pentagon would have done a better job choosing the right candidates? ::

Also, it's very telling what Bucky communicates to Steve during and after the airport battle. "He's going to tear himself in half?!" when Scott jokes about how it might happen when he goes giant. (Poor Bucky, doesn't know Scott-isms yet! ) And "What's going to happen to your friends?" on the plane. His first thought is about the well-being of others.

 

[yllum]

Silly question, did Bucky really not remember Steve when he confronted him at his place? Or was he pretending?

imo he really didnt remember what he has gone through with steve at the apartment. He only know who steve is via info from museum.

buck only remember all his past in the scene in that Warehouse (where he talk about the newspaper in shoe)

 

[Rote]

imo he really didnt remember what he has gone through with steve at the apartment. He only know who steve is via info from museum.

buck only remember all his past in the scene in that Warehouse (where he talk about the newspaper in shoe)

This is the dialog:

- I read about you at the museum.
- I know you're nervous. And you have plenty of reason to be. But you're lying.

I think, Steve was right, because after that Bucky suddenly remembered very specific details about Cap's mom and Steve rightfully noticed: "You can't read that in a museum."

 

[yllum]

This is the dialog:

I think, Steve was right, because after that Bucky suddenly remembered very specific details about Cap's mom and Steve rightfully noticed: "You can't read that in a museum."

Steve thinks that buck is lying. That is what Steve thought. Does not mean steve is right.

As i mentioned in earlier post, i feel that buck only remember all his past with steve in the 30s in the scene in that Warehouse (where he talk about the newspaper in shoe)

 

[Rote]

Why would he suddenly remember his past only in Warehouse? I think it was to show exactly that Bucky remembers it and was lying to Steve earlier.

 

[yllum]

buck has this condition. sometimes he remember stuff..sometimes he doesn't. Sometimes he forget..his mind is screwed so many time by hydra. Any memories can come to him SUDDENLT. hence he keep this diary where he write downs his past. he said it in a interview when asked what is in his diary

 

[Schlosser85]

I think Steve was correct and Bucky was hedging because he was scared.

 

[Anita18]

Why would he suddenly remember his past only in Warehouse? I think it was to show exactly that Bucky remembers it and was lying to Steve earlier.

Well, it's not technically a lie. He DID read about Steve in a museum, after all. The best lies are half-truths, haha. He was lying by omission, because he's not letting on that he remembers more of where he knows Steve from.

But yeah, in addition to that, everything Bucky says and does afterwards shows that he does know Steve, and not just from reading about him in the Smithsonian. Calling him "Steve" specifically, knowing how to fight with him, and saying, "My name is Bucky" while in custody. Why would Bucky claim that identity for himself, which is how Steve knows him as, if he didn't remember the relationship he had with Steve from before?

 

[yllum]

The next time u see the movie, take note of how bucky reacts and talk in that warehouses scene where his mental arm is held.He talk very differently and even smile when steve asked him which bucky he was talking to. That is the scene when bucky regain those 30s memories. the bucky from that scene is very different from bucky from previous scenes.

 

[Anita18]

The next time u see the movie, take note of how bucky reacts and talk in that warehouses scene where his mental arm is held.He talk very differently and even smile when steve asked him which bucky he was talking to. That is the scene when bucky regain those 30s memories. the bucky from that scene is very different from bucky from previous scenes.

The explanation for that is easy - no special forces teams were actively trying to kill him. He knew he was safe with Steve.

 

[Xeno]

The explanation for that is easy - no special forces teams were actively trying to kill him. He knew he was safe with Steve.

At the end of the tunnel chase, during which Steve, Bucky, Falcon and Black Panther once again endangered civillians, those supposedly murderous police officers didn't open fire. Neither did War Machine, who could have turned them all into hamburger. Had they really been bent on killing Bucky, that was the perfect chance.

 

[hafizbat]

Concerning Bucky's memory,

Memory is a complicated thing, and we still don't understand it fully. We do know that there are several types of memory and several parts of the brain associated with them, and we also know that damage to different parts affects memory differently. After brain damage, whether congenital or through trauma, some have problems forming long-term memory, some can't recall their long-term memory, some remember their long-term memory but can't form short-term memory, etc etc. Some even remember everything, but can no longer feel anything about them. There's even disorders where people recognize faces but find it impossible to emotionally connect with them...a man could recognize his wife's face but believe it's not her.

Anyway, the point is that what exactly HYDRA did to Bucky is a mystery, and all we know is that he had no control of his actions but still formed full and clear memories of them. I don't think that's a plot hole or anything. My theory is that HYDRA's method was to shut down Bucky's rational/emotional processing so that he'd be unable to access his long-term memory and make his own decisions, but obviously kept his short-term memory intact long enough for him to remember the details of his mission, his orders, etc etc. The effect is clearly temporary, and head trauma, strong reminders of the past, and the simple passage of time weaken the hold. That's why they have to keep wiping him if he's out too long.

 

[Anita18]

At the end of the tunnel chase, during which Steve, Bucky, Falcon and Black Panther once again endangered civillians, those supposedly murderous police officers didn't open fire. Neither did War Machine, who could have turned them all into hamburger. Had they really been bent on killing Bucky, that was the perfect chance.

But Bucky doesn't know that. Steve is trusting that nobody's gonna take a shot at Bucky when they've surrendered out where civilians are, but the first things the cops shot into the apartment sure weren't smoke grenade or tranq darts.

Just imagine what Bucky's mindset is - he hasn't seen Steve in 2 years, he JUST found out he was framed for a major act of terrorism, and Steve in full Captain America regalia just shows up in his apartment unannounced. Clearly, he suspects s*** is gonna go down, and fast.

Concerning Bucky's memory,

Memory is a complicated thing, and we still don't understand it fully. We do know that there are several types of memory and several parts of the brain associated with them, and we also know that damage to different parts affects memory differently. After brain damage, whether congenital or through trauma, some have problems forming long-term memory, some can't recall their long-term memory, some remember their long-term memory but can't form short-term memory, etc etc. Some even remember everything, but can no longer feel anything about them. There's even disorders where people recognize faces but find it impossible to emotionally connect with them...a man could recognize his wife's face but believe it's not her.

Anyway, the point is that what exactly HYDRA did to Bucky is a mystery, and all we know is that he had no control of his actions but still formed full and clear memories of them. I don't think that's a plot hole or anything. My theory is that HYDRA's method was to shut down Bucky's rational/emotional processing so that he'd be unable to access his long-term memory and make his own decisions, but obviously kept his short-term memory intact long enough for him to remember the details of his mission, his orders, etc etc. The effect is clearly temporary, and head trauma, strong reminders of the past, and the simple passage of time weaken the hold. That's why they have to keep wiping him if he's out too long.

This isn't Memento, and Bucky was given a version of the super-soldier serum which includes enhanced healing. IMO it's pretty clear that Bucky has regained all of his memories in the 2 years he's been on the run.

"I remember all of it."

 

[yllum]

For fan of WS; I was browsing through the official art book for cap2.

it states that ws metal arm is something almost beyond what tony stark could do at the point.

Interpret whichever way u want it guys.

 

[TalismanRing]

At the end of the tunnel chase, during which Steve, Bucky, Falcon and Black Panther once again endangered civillians, those supposedly murderous police officers didn't open fire. Neither did War Machine, who could have turned them all into hamburger. Had they really been bent on killing Bucky, that was the perfect chance.

Sharon says the Task Force order is "Shoot on sight" - that's a kill order not an arrest warrant. That they weren't going to open fire and execute him in front of civilians and with a couple of Avengers standing there when he was already under control doesn't mean they wouldn't have put a bullet in his head in his apt - if they had the chance. Just like Rumlow & Co didn't execute Steve, Nat and Sam after the highway chase with the world watching.

 

[JtheDreamer]

This isn't Memento, and Bucky was given a version of the super-soldier serum which includes enhanced healing. IMO it's pretty clear that Bucky has regained all of his memories in the 2 years he's been on the run.

"I remember all of it."

We don't know how the variant serum he was given affects cognitive wiping. It can be assumed the memories might come back - but again this is one of those facets the movie doesn't take time to better explain.