Civil War Winter is Coming - The Bucky Barnes Thread - Part 1

[Schlosser85]

Sharon says the Task Force order is "Shoot on sight" - that's a kill order not an arrest warrant. That they weren't going to open fire and execute him in front of civilians and with a couple of Avengers standing there when he was already under control doesn't mean they wouldn't have put a bullet in his head in his apt - if they had the chance. Just like Rumlow & Co didn't execute Steve, Nat and Sam after the highway chase with the world watching.

Exactly. Stuff like this isn't that hard to follow...

 

[Webfoot Hero]

Sharon says the Task Force order is "Shoot on sight" - that's a kill order not an arrest warrant. That they weren't going to open fire and execute him in front of civilians and with a couple of Avengers standing there when he was already under control doesn't mean they wouldn't have put a bullet in his head in his apt - if they had the chance. Just like Rumlow & Co didn't execute Steve, Nat and Sam after the highway chase with the world watching.

This is why I don't understand how people thought CA was wrong for getting involved in the search for Bucky.

 

[Just_Human]

Because he didnt have the right to do it

 

[FN-2187]

Because he didnt have the right to do it

They didn't have the right to slaughter Bucky like an animal but they were prepared to do it. Steve's #1 goal was to make sure EVERYONE made it out of the situation alive. And he succeeded.

 

[hafizbat]

Because he didnt have the right to do it

Just because he didn't have the right to do it, doesn't mean it wasn't the right thing to do.

 

[metaphysician]

Exactly. Stuff like this isn't that hard to follow...

Its also worth considering that Sharon is smart enough to interpret what orders actually mean, in practice. I wouldn't be shocked if the SWAT team was *not* literally ordered "Go in, and kill this SOB no matter what". Instead, it was "Go in, take this guy down. And be aware, he's a deadly dangerous super-terrorist whose killed a ton of people. Don't take unnecessary chances." Which functionally amounts to "kill the guy".

Plus, as was amply demonstrated, it wasn't primarily *Bucky's* life Cap was trying to save there; it was the lives of all the commandos coming to *try* and capture/kill him.

 

[MarvelMayhem]

Cap was there to protect both Bucky and the SWAT team. He just saw a video that he believed was Bucky setting a bomb. So I am sure he wanted to protect Bucky from harming others and to try and get Bucky some help, he might have thought Hydra still had control over him.
As far as Bucky was concerned, think he was living a quiet life without anyone's influence which has not occurred for a very long time. I don't think he was intentionally trying to kill anyone but i also see Bucky thinking to himself he was not going back to Hydra or being locked up by anyone..anymore. He was tired of being a slave so he would do what was necessary to stay away from any organization set to use him again.

 

[Anita18]

Presented without comment. (Although I'm still LOLing over Hellmo Steve Rogers)

 

[MarvelMayhem]

Presented without comment. (Although I'm still LOLing over Hellmo Steve Rogers)

Its so funny because it is both ridiculous yet surprisingly MCU factual. LOL

 

[metaphysician]

I assuming you ignore all context in the name of a joke, and basically make the first two of them up, that is.

 

[gildedmuse]

Well, rule of funny shall always prevail, but really you don't have to ignore the facts, just bend them slightly.

In the first movie, Steve wants to join the army to stop bullies (specifically Germans) and has no real reason to single out Hydra. It's not until he learns that Bucky is captured, possible killed, that he breaks away from his role as chorus girl and ride into battle. After he saves Bucky, that's when he truly joins the war and at that point it becomes all about targeting Hydra.

Then in Winter Soldier it's impossible to say how far Steve was willing to go when it comes to taking down the Hydra elements in SHIELD if you removed Bucky from the equation since he learns about the two in pretty quick succession. However, we do know that Fury's original plan was only to eliminate those in Hydra but to leave SHIELD standing while it's Steve who says they have to bring the whole thing down. During that scene it's also Fury who brings up that he hadn't known about Barnes, making it clear that at least part of Steve's motivation in the total destruction of SHIELD is because of what has happened to his best friend.

Bucky is straight up the catalyst behind Steve's actions in Civil War. Right from the beginning when Crossbones mentions him. No stretching needed, that just happens.

So, yeah, the joke is based on a exaggeration because there is humour in exaggeration, but it all does happen to some extent. It has to have, or it wouldn't be funny.

And yes I just explained the joke. I'm sorry.

 

[Loki882]

Oh I agree. Steve's connection to Bucky clouds his judgment throughout this movie, which he even acknowledges early on (after the fight with Crossbones). And it leads directly to what happens in the climax as well.

 

[Loki882]

They didn't have the right to slaughter Bucky like an animal but they were prepared to do it. Steve's #1 goal was to make sure EVERYONE made it out of the situation alive. And he succeeded.

Umm, yes they did. Bucky is a noted assassin who's killed many people before (which is public knowledge at this point), wanted in connection to a political bombing at the UN which killed the King of Wakanda. And the noted HYDRA assassin is not likely to allow himself to be taken alive, and no one (including Cap) had ever been able to bring him in before that.

It's no different then when special forces hunt down an kill terrorists in real life. Was anybody complaining when they put a bullet through bin Laden's head instead of arresting him?

 

[BoredGuy]

personally I would've liked to have seen him stand trial, as opposed to hearing a third party account of his death

but I hear what you're sayin

 

[FN-2187]

Umm, yes they did. Bucky is a noted assassin who's killed many people before (which is public knowledge at this point), wanted in connection to a political bombing at the UN which killed the King of Wakanda. And the noted HYDRA assassin is not likely to allow himself to be taken alive, and no one (including Cap) had ever been able to bring him in before that.

It's no different then when special forces hunt down an kill terrorists in real life. Was anybody complaining when they put a bullet through bin Laden's head instead of arresting him?

If Osama bin Laden were a brainwashed American war hero, I guarantee the public would have demanded that the government at least ATTEMPT to bring him in alive.

Ross should have been the one to reach out to Cap and Falcon (and Iron Man and War Machine and Widow...) to do this job to begin with. He didn't because he's an arrogant SOB who wanted Bucky dead, not rehabilitated, and he knew the Avengers wouldn't kill him.

 

[Anita18]

If Osama bin Laden were a brainwashed American war hero, I guarantee the public would have demanded that the government at least ATTEMPT to bring him in alive.

Ross should have been the one to reach out to Cap and Falcon (and Iron Man and War Machine and Widow...) to do this job to begin with. He didn't because he's an arrogant SOB who wanted Bucky dead, not rehabilitated, and he knew the Avengers wouldn't kill him.

IIRC, the original story was that bin Laden came at the SEALs armed and was using one of his wives as a human shield, and they were forced to shoot him. (Shooting to injure doesn't exist in real life). It wasn't until much later, after he was long dead and buried, that it came out he wasn't armed. (Not sure if it was true he used one of his wives as a human shield either.)

So I don't think people generally like the idea of shooting first and asking questions later. But agree with you re: brainwashed American war hero bit.

 

[Rote]

What I actually can't understand is why the CIA didn't release a photo of Bucky without a mask after TWS. Why have they waited until the UN bombing? Didn't they care that WS is on the loose somewhere? Or they thought than he died on the helicarrier?

 

[FN-2187]

What I actually can't understand is why the CIA didn't release a photo of Bucky without a mask after TWS. Why have they waited until the UN bombing? Didn't they care that WS is on the loose somewhere? Or they thought than he died on the helicarrier?

Everyone already knew what he looked like.

It's like saying: "Be on the lookout for FDR". Everyone already knows what he looks like from their history books.

 

[Anita18]

Also, the Winter Soldier's identity probably came out with Natasha's SHIELD infodump. It's just that it wasn't a priority to look for him cause um, dead Secretary of Defense and three helicarriers in the Potomac and he was probably forgotten after all that. Especially if he laid low. They basically had no reason to manhunt for him until the UN bombing.

 

[Rote]

It's like saying: "Be on the lookout for FDR". Everyone already knows what he looks like from their history books.

Yeah, but still, before that nobody has recognized him. Cap and Falcon "looked for the guy for 2 years and found nothing". But after the UN bombing the task force released his photo to "get the word out, involve as many eyes as we can" and "it got 7 billion people looking for the Winter soldier". And because of that he was found immediately. So why didn't they do it earlier? They knew that it's the best way to quickly find the guy.

It's just that it wasn't a priority to look for him cause um, dead Secretary of Defense and three helicarriers in the Potomac and he was probably forgotten after all that.

It wasn't a priority to look for the Winter Soldier, the most legendary assassin of the 20th century, linked to numerous acts of terrorism and political assassinations? (Stan even said that it was the WS, who killed JFK) Especially after Natasha's SHIELD infodump? Oddly enough, IMO.

 

[Anita18]

It wasn't a priority to look for the Winter Soldier, the most legendary assassin of the 20th century, linked to numerous acts of terrorism and political assassinations? (Stan even said that it was the WS, who killed JFK) Especially after Natasha's SHIELD infodump? Oddly enough, IMO.

Actually, not at that moment, no. Not only was the Secretary of Defense dead, but so were several World Security Council members, and SHIELD was basically destroyed after turning out to be HYDRA. The fallout from that must have realistically taken the better part of a year to recover from, at least.

(Speaking of which, did they ever explain away Pierce's death without implying Fury was still alive? I guess Natasha must have taken the credit for that one. )

CW also adds another layer, since apparently it's only Zemo who was able to decrypt most of HYDRA's part of the infodump. The CIA had obviously gotten the part about Bucky being the Winter Soldier, but they apparently didn't even know that he was the one who killed the Starks. Perhaps it's only Zemo who knows the identity of all of the Winter Soldier's targets. All the CIA might know is that he was a former-WWII-hero-turned assassin, that's it. They might not know how significant he was.

 

[FN-2187]

Yeah, but still, before that nobody has recognized him. Cap and Falcon "looked for the guy for 2 years and found nothing". But after the UN bombing the task force released his photo to "get the word out, involve as many eyes as we can" and "it got 7 billion people looking for the Winter soldier". And because of that he was found immediately. So why didn't they do it earlier? They knew that it's the best way to quickly find the guy.

Like Sam and Steve said in Civil War:

Sam: We've been looking for the guy for two years and found nothing.
Steve: We didn't bomb the UN. That turns a lot of heads.

They needed the UN bombing to find him because, before that happened, people weren't paying attention and didn't care.

How often do you look at the faces around you to see if you can spot Ali Atwa? But if they were talking about him 24/7 on CNN, it would be a different story...

 

[dax]

What I actually can't understand is why the CIA didn't release a photo of Bucky without a mask after TWS. Why have they waited until the UN bombing? Didn't they care that WS is on the loose somewhere? Or they thought than he died on the helicarrier?

Because there was nobody around to take pics of Bucky as the Winter Soldier unmasked. They were all too busy running from the explosions and gunfire while he was fighting Cap so as someone already mentioned, the only way anyone would uncover Winter Soldier's identity is through Natasha's SHIELD infodump

 

[Silvermoon]

So from Wizard World Sacramento...Our Winter Soldier ladies and gentlemen:

Video: http://imsebastianstans.tumblr.com/post/146290239496/jaemiie-for-those-of-you-asking-about-the

And regarding the car scene (spoiler tagging just for number of images/length reasons):

Spoiler

There's a few videos of the full panel, I think this is one of the best ones I've seen yet: https://youtu.be/9hN4jShm44Y

 

[Anita18]

So from Wizard World Sacramento...Our Winter Soldier ladies and gentlemen:

Video: https://www.instagram.com/p/BG6wCmguNl2

I think it's been well documented in interviews that Seb, despite his model looks, is a hopeless adorkable klutz. Didn't he joke he wasn't allowed near large pieces of machinery?