Wrestling Formally Announces Its Intention Of Interfering In This Thread - Part 235

[Dr. Evil]

I don't want it to die, I want WWE to be a good wrestling promotion again.

A promotion where piledrivers aren't banned (unless you're Undertaker)

A promotion where blood isn't banned (unless you're Lesnar)

A promotion where high angle suplexes aren't banned (unless you're Lesnar)

A promotion where the belts don't look like six year olds on acid designed them (the new UK belt is sexy, though)

A promotion where they actually care about women's wrestling rather than just expending a massive amount of energy telling us they do

A promotion where there aren't freaking 4-5 people on commentary every night talking about god knows what

A promotion where they don't arbitrarily segregate the roster

A promotion where being a World Champion is a rare accomplishment that is only made by people who are a) actually good wrestlers and b) actually over with the crowd

A promotion where they actually have heels

A promotion where a guy in his late 40s/early 50s doesn't show up 2-6 times a year and make all the regular talent look like hacks

WWE is guilty of every sin that AAA/TNA/ROH/LU/NJPW/CMLL commit, but nobody takes them to task for it.

And what's worse is that when WWE finally makes an incremental change to an awful policy they never should have had in the first place, everybody acts like they're being so revolutionary and progressive.

WWE spent the better part of a decade making the guys who represent the style of wrestling that ROH puts on jump through every hoop there is to get the smallest opportunities, and now they just sign a dozen ROH/NJPW guys a year and nobody points out the hypocrisy.

Guys like CM Punk and Bryan Danielson had to get so popular their fans were literally hijacking every show before WWE gave them a chance, and now they can scoop up guys like Steen and nobody blinks.

They went PG for two reasons: Linda McMahon ran for Senate, but IMO, the number one reason that the WWE went PG:

The Summer of Hell 2007. It was the summer that Chris Benoit killed himself and his family followed by a major drug scandal that almost ruined the company. They were losing sponsors and fan support left and right because every night for weeks following the death of Benoit and his family, there was something coming out that made the WWE look really bad. It got so bad, that if he had still been in the WWE at the time, The Rock would have cut ties with the WWE for good instead of appearing every so often via taped promo from somewhere in the world as he did during his 8 year hiatus from the company.

To me, that summer was the main reason the WWE went to PG. It was that time that I went and became a UFC fan. They got rid of the blood because they had to get sponsors back. The Summer of Hell 2007 also allowed for the WWE to institute it's concussion policy and its wellness policy.

Had he himself died and there was no drug scandal in 2007, I think the landscape of the WWE would be different today.

People tend to forget that the summer of 2007 was one of the reasons why the WWE has gone PG.

If it happens again, this time I think the consequences for the WWE would be more severe this time.

 

[famicommander]

ROH (Sinclair), LU (United Artists/Robert Rodriguez/AAA), and TNA (Anthem/Aroluxe/Carters) are all owned by companies as big as WWE and they don't have to water their products down.

WWE is a cancer. All they do is decrease the overall quality of wrestling available by taking guys from better promotions and putting them in worse situations (creatively/in-ring wise).

If people like the so-called changes WWE has gone through lately, they should go to the sources. LU, ROH, and NJPW are what is driving the business from an athletic and creative standpoint. WWE (and TNA) are just looking at what those companies are doing, then doing it worse.

 

[TheCommissioner]

They went PG for two reasons: Linda McMahon ran for Senate, but IMO, the number one reason that the WWE went PG:

The Summer of Hell 2007. It was the summer that Chris Benoit killed himself and his family followed by a major drug scandal that almost ruined the company. They were losing sponsors and fan support left and right because every night for weeks following the death of Benoit and his family, there was something coming out that made the WWE look really bad. It got so bad, that if he had still been in the WWE at the time, The Rock would have cut ties with the WWE for good instead of appearing every so often via taped promo from somewhere in the world as he did during his 8 year hiatus from the company.

To me, that summer was the main reason the WWE went to PG. It was that time that I went and became a UFC fan. They got rid of the blood because they had to get sponsors back. The Summer of Hell 2007 also allowed for the WWE to institute it's concussion policy and its wellness policy.

Had he himself died and there was no drug scandal in 2007, I think the landscape of the WWE would be different today.

People tend to forget that the summer of 2007 was one of the reasons why the WWE has gone PG.

and he was being advised to do so, repeatedly

he was doing press for Fast Five and was asked about it, and he mentioned briefly that that time period was really tough for the WWE and his manager implored him to make a clean break and he wouldn't

for a while after Benoits death, every time a wrestler died, even if they had the flimsiest connection to the WWE, their name got dragged into it

 

[Dr. Evil]

and he was being advised to do so, repeatedly

he was doing press for Fast Five and was asked about it, and he mentioned briefly that that time period was really tough for the WWE and his manager implored him to make a clean break and he wouldn't

for a while after Benoits death, every time a wrestler died, even if they had the flimsiest connection to the WWE, their name got dragged into it

Would he cut ties if it happened again?

 

[TheCommissioner]

ROH (Sinclair), LU (United Artists/Robert Rodriguez/AAA), and TNA (Anthem/Aroluxe/Carters) are all owned by companies as big as WWE and they don't have to water their products down.

WWE is a cancer. All they do is decrease the overall quality of wrestling available by taking guys from better promotions and putting them in worse situations (creatively/in-ring wise).

If people like the so-called changes WWE has gone through lately, they should go to the sources. LU, ROH, and NJPW are what is driving the business from an athletic and creative standpoint. WWE (and TNA) are just looking at what those companies are doing, then doing it worse.

here's the big difference

none of those promotions are producing 5 hours of live TV EACH WEEK

LU tapes their seasons over 2-3 weekends, ROH tapes twice a month I think, TNA about the same

Id watch LU, but Comcast on the east coast doesn't carry it

TNA is on a channel that Im not willing to pay for

and ROH doesn't have a steady syndication deal here in the northeast

they are shown on NESN on Sunday nights, but thats very arbitrary

 

[TheCommissioner]

Would he cut ties if it happened again?

you know

it wouldn't surprise me if he did

and I wouldn't blame him

I count my lucky stars that no one "high profile" aside from Chyna has died recently, as callous as that sounds

 

[Dr. Evil]

ROH (Sinclair), LU (United Artists/Robert Rodriguez/AAA), and TNA (Anthem/Aroluxe/Carters) are all owned by companies as big as WWE and they don't have to water their products down.

WWE is a cancer. All they do is decrease the overall quality of wrestling available by taking guys from better promotions and putting them in worse situations (creatively/in-ring wise).

If people like the so-called changes WWE has gone through lately, they should go to the sources. LU, ROH, and NJPW are what is driving the business from an athletic and creative standpoint. WWE (and TNA) are just looking at what those companies are doing, then doing it worse.

The WWE is not perfect, and neither are LU, ROH, and New Japan. Now, the other three do have better wrestling than WWE, but are not 100% perfect and I doubt that you believe that they are. As I said earlier, I am a huge UFC fan and a big NFL fan, moreso than WWE (hell, I'm skipping Battleground for Cowboys-Bucs tomorrow) but I know that both have it's flaws, especially the NFL, who's flaws are more visible than the WWE's flaws because NFL is bigger in the mainstream than the WWE. I also said earlier about the issues I had with Marvel Studios.

 

[TheCommissioner]

the NFL took a serious hit this year, ratings are down about 15-20 percent, they finally reazlied the Thursday Night games are trash

 

[Dr. Evil]

you know

it wouldn't surprise me if he did

and I wouldn't blame him

I count my lucky stars that no one "high profile" aside from Chyna has died recently, as callous as that sounds

If it happens again and he didn't, it will have a major affect on his career in Hollywood. I also see Cena leaving for good if that happens.

 

[Dr. Evil]

the NFL took a serious hit this year, ratings are down about 15-20 percent, they finally reazlied the Thursday Night games are trash

As I have said, the NFL's problems are more visible to the mainstream than the WWE's.

 

[TheCommissioner]

watching 'Total Divas' has let me see Cena in a new light, and not a positive one

he's a neat freak regimented weirdo and that works for him, but Ive known a few guys like that and you can only be wound that tight for so long

 

[famicommander]

The difference is that WWE has everything they need to put on the best wrestling shows in the world, anx they simply choose not to.

They have the talent
They have the TV distribution
They have the name recognition
They have the knowledge
They have the Network
They have decades worth of established relationships
They have the production quality
They have the money

And yet, on a weekly basis they put out the worst wrestling shows on national TV.

ROH TV blows Raw and Smackdown out of the water
NJPW on AXS is a tape delayed highlight show and it blows WWE out of the water
LU is on an entirely different level
Even Impact, which at times can be bafflingly terrible, is a better watch most weeks

TNA gets crapped on, and rightfully so, every time they screw up. But even still, they can somehow put out a better product while spending most of the last 3 years just trying not to die.

 

[TheCommissioner]

and none of those promotions are taping LIVE TV for 5 HOURS A WEEK

it does affect what goes on in the ring

 

[The Apocalypse]

the NFL took a serious hit this year, ratings are down about 15-20 percent, they finally reazlied the Thursday Night games are trash

NFL had their highest ratings last season. The reason they took a hit is because of Trump and the election, Brady was suspended the first 4 weeks and Manning retired. They've slightly gone back up since the election ended.

 

[TheCommissioner]

NFL had their highest ratings last season. The reason they took a hit is because of Trump and the election, Brady was suspended the first 4 weeks and Manning retired. They've slightly gone back up since the election ended.

and the games the first half of the season were sort of trash, there have been some decent ones in the past 4 or so weeks

 

[famicommander]

and none of those promotions are taping LIVE TV for 5 HOURS A WEEK

it does affect what goes on in the ring

They actually tape more than five hours if you include 205 Live, Main Event, NXT, etc.

But that's not an excuse. There's no grading on a curve. If you're taping so much television that it drags down the overall quality, then you should stop taping so much television.

I'm not going to give season 4 of Arrow a pass because of all the other Arrowverse shows that were taping at the same time.

 

[TheCommissioner]

They actually tape more than five hours if you include 205 Live, Main Event, NXT, etc.

But that's not an excuse. There's no grading on a curve. If you're taping so much television that it drags down the overall quality, then you should stop taping so much television.

I'm not going to give season 4 of Arrow a pass because of all the other Arrowverse shows that were taping at the same time.

incorrect

its not grading on a curve, its understanding logistics, tv commitments and things the WWE (as a business) deals with that no other promotion has to deal with

the WWE has a more diverse audience than any other promotion (they are about 35-45 percent female viewership), the WWE has commitments (both in ring and out) that other promotions don't have

if you have an issue with the quality of in ring wrestling, I get it - but its not bad its just not what you like

and lets not let history cloud the lens, the WWE has never had the "best" in ring product

its always been a bit "less than" its independent counterparts, but they can pay more and provide a better QOL to wrestlers who come from those promotions

Im sure Kevin Owens(Steen) is happy he doesn't have to put himself through a ladder every other week for YOUR entertainment

the WWE is a big budget blockbuster, ROH is independent film

one will not be the other no matter how badly you want it to be

 

[Dr. Evil]

People are forgetting that the one thing that made the Attitude Era stand out over WCW was not the wrestling but the entertainment value. IMO, WCW had the better in-ring product during the Monday Night Wars, but WWE was entertaining. I don't think Stone Cold and the Rock were not the best in regards to in ring (although Austin was very good), but they stood out because both brought the entertainment factor. Austin's storyline with Vince McMahon is one of the best in wrestling history. The work in the ring was not great, but the story was awesome. The Rock would cut these promos that would keep people cheering, no matter heel or face. The Rock did not have a lot of five star matches, but he kept people entertained. Mick Foley was the same. His matches weren't great, but it didn't matter as he kept us entertained. Kane, Taker, The APA, The Nation of Domination, DX all very entertaining during the Attitude Era, the wrestling was an after thought, opponent didn't matter.

The WWE was never about the wrestling, it's about the entertainment factor. That's how it's been since the 1980's. Hell, Hulk Hogan wasn't the greatest wrestler in the world, but he was entertaining. Hogan vs. Andre would be spat upon at an Indy show, but in the WWE it was great. Hogan wasn't ever going to be the great in-ring technician that guys like Harley Race, Ricky Steamboat, Sting and Ric Flair were in the NWA at the time, but he was entertaining. He competed against some of the slowest, least talented men to ever compete inside a wrestling ring, but it didn't matter because it was Hulk Hogan. Hell, the closest we've ever had to a legit wrestling match during the era of Hulkamania was Savage vs. Steamboat. One of Hogan's most revered matches in the WWE was against Andre The Giant at WM 3. Was that the best in terms of the wrestling? Far from it but the story leading up to the match was great.

Despite famicommander's anger that the WWE isn't wrestling enough, he needs to remember, that the WWE has never been "just wrestling."

 

[TheCommissioner]

Yup

Hogan vs Andre is boring as hell (wrestling wise) but the story around it and it being in front of the Silverdome crowd made it magical

 

[Dr. Evil]

Some people forget when bashing the WWE that the WWE has never been "just wrestling." It's been this way for 30 years. It's not like Vince McMahon all of a sudden woke up in 2014 and said "let's put on some boring wrestling matches." I mean Hogan had some of the most boring matches out there with some awful opponents, but the stories surrounding those matches were great.

Many of Hogan's best matches in the WWE in the 80's were actually boring in terms of wrestling but in terms of overall entertainment value, they were great.

 

[Dr. Evil]

Yup

Hogan vs Andre is boring as hell (wrestling wise) but the story around it and it being in front of the Silverdome crowd made it magical

Exactly. Based on his recent posts, famicommander is upset that the WWE has the worst wrestling out there. But it's been this way for 30 years. It's not just the matches in the WWE, it's also the entertainment factor.

Hogan vs. Slaughter is nowhere near the quality of any of the Steamboat vs. Flair matches in terms of wrestling, but it's still considered one of Hogan's most revered matches due to the story surrounding it. Take away the story surrounding it and the feud sucks because the match sucked.

 

[Blitzkrieg Bop]

What is wrestling? I only know sports entertainment damn it!

 

[chamber-music]

I don't know what you mean by blood is banned. Roman reigns gets his face busted open every other week. I assume you mean blading being banned which it should be. Cutting your head open with a razor is dumb.

 

[OnTheAir]

Does anyone miss Layla?

I love me some Layla, and miss seeing her beautiful self on my tv, but she retired, married WWECW's Ricky Ortiz, and is apparently happy. Good for her!

 

[Slushy]

ROH (Sinclair), LU (United Artists/Robert Rodriguez/AAA), and TNA (Anthem/Aroluxe/Carters) are all owned by companies as big as WWE and they don't have to water their products down.

WWE is a cancer. All they do is decrease the overall quality of wrestling available by taking guys from better promotions and putting them in worse situations (creatively/in-ring wise).

If people like the so-called changes WWE has gone through lately, they should go to the sources. LU, ROH, and NJPW are what is driving the business from an athletic and creative standpoint. WWE (and TNA) are just looking at what those companies are doing, then doing it worse.

Vince Russo is 100% right. In fact, he is pretty much right on almost everything he says. A lot of smarks don't like it because they value in-ring work first and then everything else. In reality, all the casual fans I know, ALL OF THEM, don't give a sh** about in-ring work. They care about characters, storylines, and in-ring promos.

Their favorite moments aren't "What an amazing suplex that was!", it's Hulk Hogan doing bodybuilder poses, Stone Cold driving a beer truck, and The Rock making fun of Michael Cole.

I'm a 34 year old man. An energetic Hulkamaniac when I was a kid, throwing up the Turkish Wolf in middle school with the nWo, and flipping off the bird in high school with Austin.

Never did I hear any wrestling discussion about in-ring ability with my fellow classmates. It was always about personalities, angles, segments, etc.

At some point after the Attitude era, people who consider themselves to be "true" wrestling fans took on this platform that in-ring skill is the end all, be all factor.

So how long did it take for this guy:

7 months. His promo after joining The Nation is what turned his career around.

Bradshaw of the APA to JBL, one of the most effectively despicable heels of the last 20 years of so. Seriously, he was amazing at getting the crowd to hate him.

I hated him back then. So much so I actually stopped watching Smackdown for 4 months because he was such an undeserving champion. (There's been worse since then.) Thanks to the WWE Network, I can go back and watch all those great promos he cut that I missed out on.

Despite becoming the WWE Champion in horrible creatively fashion, he made the most out of his lifetime achievement award title reign.

Speaking of which, what do you guys think is the greatest gimmick change in WWE history?

Mick Foley becoming Cactus Jack, Mankind, then Dude Love.

I stopped following after "Big Money Matt" so how did "Broken" Matt Hardy come about

He blamed Jeff Hardy for him losing the TNA Championship and completely snapped.