Dark Phoenix X-Men: Dark Phoenix News and Speculation Thread - - - - - - Part 15

[SumT]

But the events of Apocalypse would have us believe that Hank formed the X-men by begging Mystique. Hank was just waiting for his White(literal White girl)-Knight-in-Shining-Armor Raven to form the team with him. According to that film, Xavier had nothing to do with forming the X-men. This was after Wolverine, during DOFP, asked Charles to "Find them. Scott. Storm. Jean. Form the X-men."

Now Kinberg wants us to believe that Charles is pushing the kids? When? Oh right, during the 10 year gap. Where magical things happen.

you are making me hate this franchise approach even more each day.
please......... stop it.

 

[Mutant 77]

I mean, he runs an American school. He seems to operate on a relatively local level. I don't know that his plan was ever to jaunt around the world picking up every mutant that manifests, and its reasonable to believe that he isn't aware of all of them and their situations, no matter how sophisticated his tech and how powerful he is.

Doesn't APOCALYPSE basically indicate that he didn't want to put the students in harm's way? It's Beast that wanted to re-form the X-Men. Xavier was reluctant.

Yeah, I agree. He already tried in 1962-1965 with mixed results.

 

[The Original Bamfer]

Hank has had character development in this franchise, especially in FIRST CLASS and DAYS OF FUTURE PAST, and he definitely has a character arc, both related to his appearance/bestial nature and his feelings about the X-Men and Xavier's stewardship of them. And no, his arc is not as well drawn or developed as Xavier, Magneto, Logan, Mystique, etc, and there's a reason for that...he's a supporting character in the franchise. In some ways he's a foil to Mystique and he essentially serves as Xavier's conscience. But he's been a key character in this franchise nontheless.

And I get that people have an issue with him changing back and forth, but that element actually does add serve to add more depth to his character, his origins, and his relation to the world at large, and there's been a gradual evolution of both his ability and then his willingness to become Beast. The serum isn't just a serum, it's something he has to constantly refine and evolve to stay "human". And then becoming Beast isn't just about turning blue and furry...he seems to become almost feral, to the point where he can lose control. It's not just about his appearance. It's about the fact that he more or less goes from a mild mannered fairly gentle scientist to a more violent creature, which we've seen glimpses of.

Beast was never the one who accepted his mutation outright. Even in The Last Stand he's tempted by the ability to change back to a human, and you get the sense that this has been a lifelong struggle for him.

He hasn't been spot on in terms of his personality, but I do think they've gotten a lot right with the character through four movies.

You make some solid points, but I still see Hank as a severely underdeveloped character. The whole point of altering the timeline in DoFP was so that characters could go in a different direction. And three out of the four mainstays of the prequel trilogy have... the fourth, Hank, not so much. This is why he should not be having the same self acceptance issues hinted at in TLS. And while he does finally do something different in siding with Magneto in DPh, he still ends up with the X-Men in the end. I guess you can assume he accepts himself post-Mystique’s-death, but I don’t think it’s ever stated. Either way, we’re looking at his development so far over three films. And there’s just not much. He’s got a poor self-image, he’s very smart, inventive, loyal to Charles, in love with Raven and is not a big fan of Erik. While that’s all good (and some of it very true to his comic counterpart,) virtually none of that has changed since FC. That’s the problem.

And, frankly, his self image problems feel like a cheap reason just to show more of Hoult’s face and subject him to less time in the makeup chair. It worked very well in FC and even DoFP, but after that? No. You can argue Mystique going back and forth because that’s the very nature of her power, but not Beast. I thought, around the time of DoFP’s production, that it was going to be Singer’s way of trying to rectify the continuity error of Hank’s cameo in X2, but it’s just gone on way too long. And it doesn’t make sense now! Why is he hiding his true face in private but showing it in public? I guess you could assume that the superhero status of the team is liberating to Hank, but then why not be blue at home, too? Argh!

 

[psyonic]

Why not? This is not an error. It's called "character depth". Beast is worried and ashamed of his aspect. It's part of his character-arc.

Why do you wear clothes in your home? Just walk naked. Nobody is watching...

Been ashamed for over thirty years? LOL The fact that he keeps going back in the mutant closet isn't development or depth, it's lazy writing and lowers the budget for them in lieu of making any sense.

 

[Mutant 77]

Been ashamed for over thirty years? .

Are you a mutant? How do you know how he/they feel?

He's not "ashamed" in later years, he just want to make people feel confortable around him, especially in a school filled with kids, boys, girls, men and women - yes, they are mutants, but their aspect is "human".

 

[The Original Bamfer]

The only thing that was added to Hank’s character post-FC was that he became Charles’ enabler. That’s not really a positive trait. Like, at all. And once Charles learned his lesson in DoFP, Hank should have too.

“Charles’ drug addiction metaphor is bad! He needs to give that **** up so he can be himself and do great things for the world! Hank? Oh, **** that guy, let him be a junkie for two more movies!”

 

[psyonic]

Are you a mutant? How do you know how he/they feel?

He's not "ashamed" in later years, he just want to make people feel confortable around him, especially in a school filled with kids, boys, girls, men and women - yes, they are mutants, but their aspect is "human".

You just said he's ASHAMED! lol and now you're not, saying he isn't.. Also yes I would say he is ashamed about his appearance if he has to worry about how he looks around other people, especially among his own kind. They know him, they learn from him, why would he have to hide his true face?

 

[EnDz0n3]

Are you a mutant? How do you know how he/they feel?

He's not "ashamed" in later years, he just want to make people feel confortable around him, especially in a school filled with kids, boys, girls, men and women - yes, they are mutants, but their aspect is "human".

What a good role model Hank is. If you're not comfortable with how you look, or if you can make people feel comfortable about your physical appearance, inject yourself with a cure. From the people that brought you "Rogue Taking the Cure Because Rothman's Daughter Said So"TM

Imagine being a scaly red kid at Xavier's mansion and Beast is like "No you can't inject yourself with this cure. You're too young for needles."

 

[C. Lee]

A reminder people.....uncensored cursing is not allowed on here....so do not attempt to post it....even.....if you only change one letter....that just makes it the curse word spelled badly. Let the automatic censor program do it's job.

 

[psyonic]

A reminder people.....uncensored cursing is not allowed on here....so do not attempt to post it....even.....if you only change one letter....that just makes it the curse word spelled badly. Let the automatic censor program do it's job.

ok mother

 

[C. Lee]

ok mother

How about this for motherly advice.....you have 5 infractions....two fairly recently.....your next infraction gets you a six month probation.

 

[carpenter82]

 

[carpenter82]

Talking about CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT gone wrong:


The relationship between Vision and Wanda was non-existent, and Vision was a poorly developed version of the character to begin with. He should have been given more, MUCH more screentime, instead of American Football Player Thor who was Thor "in name only" and was a super-bland depiction/version of the comic book character. Almost an insult to his fans...

Vision is depicted in a very minimum amount of screentime throughout the movieS LOL ---- but you're supposed to care anyway because it's MCU and it's a big trend and because things.
Or Bruce and Scarlet.
Or Tony and Pepper.

Not to get too far off topic, but I've always had a problem with Vision. Character development with him is practically non-existent. None of the films really relay to you what exactly he is, or what his powers are. And you're right about the relationship between him and Wanda. It wouldn't be that big of a deal if Infinity War didn't try to force that relationship as being the emotional core of the film.

 

[EnDz0n3]

Why are you guys talking about Vision? LOL

But back on topic, Beast, having appeared in these moves since 2011 should be one of the most developed. But he's not.

 

[carpenter82]

 

[The Guard]

You make some solid points, but I still see Hank as a severely underdeveloped character. The whole point of altering the timeline in DoFP was so that characters could go in a different direction. And three out of the four mainstays of the prequel trilogy have... the fourth, Hank, not so much.

How exactly should he have been developed, within reason, considering he's a supporting character?

The point of altering the timeline in DOFP, the literal point of the story, is to get Mystique to go in a different direction, and to allow for different stories in the future. There's nothing inherent about all the characters going in a different direction as a result.

This is why he should not be having the same self acceptance issues hinted at in TLS.

He doesn't seem to have real self acceptance issues in TLS. He is briefly tempted, and chooses not to be cured. And there's nothing that says he has the same level of issues in DARK PHOENIX that he had in FIRST CLASS. He just doesn't go around looking like a beast all the time. Which, itself, is an evolution of the character from FIRST CLASS.

And while he does finally do something different in

Spoiler

siding with Magneto in DPh, he still ends up with the X-Men in the end.

I really, really hope this isn't a spoiler.

Either way, we’re looking at his development so far over three films. And there’s just not much. He’s got a poor self-image, he’s very smart, inventive, loyal to Charles, in love with Raven and is not a big fan of Erik.

While that’s all good (and some of it very true to his comic counterpart,) virtually none of that has changed since FC. That’s the problem.

But his relationship and the nature of his interactions with Raven, Xavier, Magneto, etc have changed. He's gone from recruit to student to teacher, from student to friend to right hand man, and from member of a covert team to one of the leaders of said team. Visually, he's gone from a human looking man with normal proportions, to a more animalistic creature, to a sort of human/beast hybrid, and so on.

And, frankly, his self image problems feel like a cheap reason just to show more of Hoult’s face and subject him to less time in the makeup chair. It worked very well in FC and even DoFP, but after that? No. You can argue Mystique going back and forth because that’s the very nature of her power, but not Beast.

Maybe.

I don't see how that's not Beast, though. Maybe it's not a particular version of Beast from a particular era. There's an entire era in the comics where he used an image inducer. This is essentially a slightly more Jekyll & Hyde take on that concept.

I thought, around the time of DoFP’s production, that it was going to be Singer’s way of trying to rectify the continuity error of Hank’s cameo in X2, but it’s just gone on way too long. And it doesn’t make sense now! Why is he hiding his true face in private but showing it in public? I guess you could assume that the superhero status of the team is liberating to Hank, but then why not be blue at home, too? Argh!

Because while he has learned to live with it, he doesn't particularly like being blue and furry and in a rage?

Why should he have to?

 

[Zarex]

Talking about CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT gone wrong:


The relationship between Vision and Wanda was non-existent, and Vision was a poorly developed version of the character to begin with. He should have been given more, MUCH more screentime, instead of American Football Player Thor who was Thor "in name only" and was a super-bland depiction/version of the comic book character. Almost an insult to his fans...

Vision is depicted in a very minimum amount of screentime throughout the movieS LOL ---- but you're supposed to care anyway because it's MCU and it's a big trend and because things.
Or Bruce and Scarlet.
Or Tony and Pepper.

If you really want to hash out the problems with Wanda, Thor and Vision you should probably head on over to the Avengers boards. I think you will find that actual Avengers fans are thrilled with Bettany, Hemsworth and Olsen's depiction of the characters.

Personally, I thought the Viz-Wanda relation was very well presented despite having limited screen time in three mega blockbuster team up films. The audience in my showing of Infinity War seemed to care about Wanda's tragic sacrifice. So they must have done something right. And if you want more of the couple you can watch their TV show with your Disney Plus subscription.

And to bring it back on topic.......in the 20 year history of the Fox X-Men franchise, name a romantic relationship anywhere close to being as well developed as Viz-Wanda. Go!

 

[Cktopl33]

So he's thankful to be losing a job? Are people really buying this?

What? Is Simon also weary of Simon writing and directing the X-men? Celebrities: "They're just like us!"

Has he been fired as director on the movie? Isn't he still a producer? Does he not have a working relationship with other studios , companies, & executives? What?

 

[Cktopl33]

I very much doubt Feige requested Phoenix's appearance to be changed to Fox's own detriment and Marvel's gain.

IIRC the notes he gave to ASM 2 were to improve the movie.

He's said X-Men is a long way off, which means a hypothetical Phoenix is even further away, so I don't see them planning that far ahead.

I'll just leave it at this: Feige has been meeting with the Kinberg and other executives/producers attached to x-men over the past months (some of them still have active contracts connected to the ip) & I'm pretty sure he's seen a cut of the movie at this point if not earlier. This movie is now under Marvel's eye, so it was anticipated. Disney could have pushed the movie back further after the acquisition wrapped to allow time to re-render the scenes had the changes not occurred when it did. Adding it to the reshoot period is strategic timing since the movie would have been in post-production anyway. And according to others, the movie was improved with the reshoots. Remember, the sequences that got replaced were based off studio notes from top Fox executives.

p.s.- don't underestimate Feige's strategy. He may not have specific stories planned out for future X-men films yet, but there are certain things he'll want to hold onto for future development and it may or may not be specifically for an x-men movie but rather an MCU movie.

 

[Nintendo]

So is that colossus? It would be really cool to see him.

 

[carpenter82]

So is that colossus? It would be really cool to see him.

I highly doubt it although that would be cool. I'm assuming the person next to him is Cyclops?

 

[carpenter82]

If you really want to hash out the problems with Wanda, Thor and Vision you should probably head on over to the Avengers boards. I think you will find that actual Avengers fans are thrilled with Bettany, Hemsworth and Olsen's depiction of the characters.

Personally, I thought the Viz-Wanda relation was very well presented despite having limited screen time in three mega blockbuster team up films. The audience in my showing of Infinity War seemed to care about Wanda's tragic sacrifice. So they must have done something right. And if you want more of the couple you can watch their TV show with your Disney Plus subscription.

And to bring it back on topic.......in the 20 year history of the Fox X-Men franchise, name a romantic relationship anywhere close to being as well developed as Viz-Wanda. Go!

Wolverine and Jean, Magneto and Mystique in First Class/DOFP, Beast and Mystique in First Class. Everyone's going to roll their eyes but I don't care, I liked Cyclops and Jean in Apocalypse. I'm looking forward to that relationship being taken further in this film.

 

[carpenter82]

 

[EnDz0n3]

So is that colossus? It would be really cool to see him.

Cyclops is the person next to Sophie (to her right). The two men closest to the camera that are being blown away are most likely just out on a stroll (definitely not Colossus). Why would Colossus even be the same age or older than Scott and Jean?

Has he been fired as director on the movie? Isn't he still a producer? Does he not have a working relationship with other studios , companies, & executives? What?

Why would Disney fire a director of a film they had nothing to do with?

"What?" LOL

 

[icekid]

I really, really hope this isn't a spoiler.

Everything else about beasts character aside, you really didn’t know this? It’s both seen in a shot of them physically standing on the same side as one another and given reason by what the character says, which are some of the few constant lines in any of the trailers.