Dark Phoenix X-Men: Dark Phoenix News and Speculation Thread - - - - - - Part 15

It falls into the category of mediocre in the pantheon of superhero movies, but there are some pretty unique ideas and approaches to concepts for a superhero/sci fi/action film. It suffers many of the same problems previous entries have had, in terms of key characters being relegated to supporting roles, or characters having perfunctory roles, and that stuff keeps it from being a really good movie. You can kind of feel the studio's hand in this. I'd be surprised if the final form the story takes was the original intentention.

It's surprisingly well directed for a relative novice. Kinberg does have good instincts for visuals and is pretty good at building tension. The writing is mostly solid, but as subtle as a sledgehammer at times, which is unfortunate, as Kinberg has been capable of a defter touch, and this material and the concepts in it would have benefited from that. There's definitely some clunky dialogue when it comes to some of the more complex psychological stuff and the sci-fi meandering. You can feel what he's trying to do, present a slightly more down to earth version of the X-Men, but in the end, this is a melodrama, in traditional X-Men fashion. Hans Zimmer sure knows it.

You can feel where it has been edited to something tighter, and I don't think that was ever the intent when this was originally plotted. DARK PHOENIX had to have been planned to be at least 15 to 30 minutes longer in its original incarnation/conception. That said, the story and evolution still works as is, it just feels a bit rushed in a few key places in the first two acts. Oddly the third act mostly works pretty well. Like, really well for the most part. It's unique and entertaining and resonant, though saddled with a few of the classic superhero good VS evil tropes, but a solid psychological twist. The characters are not as fleshed out as they could/should be, especially the villains, who are a fairly interesting choice given the source material, but they are relatively spot on for all that, at least in terms of their trajectories within this franchise. The performances are very solid (Sophie is generally excellent) and the effects are pretty darn good, as is the action, which really does feature some of the most creative use of power and some of the more natural teamwork/fieldwork in the franchise. They do get to the heart of what it means for the X-Men to be a surrogate family in a more direct way, even if the relationships aren't fleshed out as much as we would like. There's a very solid message of forgiveness, redemption and hope in the movie. There are some very "Classic X-Men" moments and interactions throughout.

There's definitely some wasted potential in terms of the concepts introduced, and I think this is probably on the studio. Whether it's at all related to the merger, I don't know. I do think CAPTAIN MARVEL had an impact on the third act. You can feel the similarities there, even with a completely different storyline happening. But overall, it feels more like they took a concept that wasn't especially safe and then tried to play it safe. The result is a film that is generally tonally consistent and fairly well executed on most levels, but muddied in its overall approach to the material. It really does feel like a serious superhero film mixed with a zany sci-fi action film at times. And that juxtaposition is not the worst thing, but it doesn't always quite work.

It's not bad, it's just...not enough. Not quite what it needed to be as the last chapter in the series. The place the film leaves the characters in is appropriate and logical, but moved through quickly, and I wanted more when it was over. Just a bit more resolution/final development. And that seems to be the way this franchise leaves its fans...wanting just a bit more.

I've liked a lot of what this franchise has done, but I'm ready for something new, and the film, in a sort of meta sense, seems to be aware of and to promise just that.
 
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I don’t think this move is going to be “terrible” as some of fans think. Literally nothing about this movie leaked (before the reddit review of the supposedly finished movie) and a pic of the cast in uniform. I think Kinberg has done his homework, read the comics, watched TAS, etc has taken all of these elements and crafted a good story this time. Hopefully Feige was able to give excellent notes and touch up scenes that needed it and I think we are in for a good treat.

Oh the things that were said...
 
1. Logan
2. First Class
3. Deadpool
4. DOFP
5. X2
6. Deadpool 2
7. X-Men
8. The Wolverine
9. The Last Stand
10. Dark Phoenix
11. X-Men: Apocalypse
12. Wolverine Origins
 
I honestly believe Kindberg’s heart was in the right place making this one. This didnt feel like X3 where it felt like he and Brett Ratner were actively and purposely out to piss off the fans for fun in every single scene. I just think this was a case of a first time director not really knowing how to handle something of this scale.

But even with that said, I think Kindberg handled the drama well, I found myself engaged in the talky scenes and even teared up slightly with one. Although it may have been less Kindberg and more the seasoned cast being able to dramatize the script in a visceral way. I think many will find it too pretentious and serious and somber but I feel like there should be room in our comic book movie dominated world for movies like this that are heavy on drama. Just my opinion.
 
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Oh, his heart was definitely in the right place. It's a bit naiive to beleive that Kinberg, Penn and Ratner are entirely to blame for the low points of X3. It's been well documented that the studio mandated certain things.

And it would also be naiive to believe the studio let the first time director (producing hat aside) do whatever he wanted this time out, either.

I thought he did a really solid job within the constraints this franchise has sort of built into it, or at least someone edited this together pretty well.

While the material was definitely serious, I didn't find it THAT serious and somber. There's a B movie component to a lot of the sci-fi/horror stuff that I think is quite intentional. I really think a lot of people have been spoiled by the "action and all the jokes" era of comic book movies.
 
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Dunno what's worse right now. This movie or me realising it's been half a decade since DoFP.

First thing that came to mind when I got out of my screening was the feeling that DOFP already feels like a lifetime ago. Remember how exciting things were in 2014? Such squandered potential in just five years.

The local cinema near my place here in Manila added two more screens today (it was just two screens last Wednesday; they are now showing it in four) and I see long lines at the ticketing booth. Though I have no idea of the general reception.
 
Oh the things that were said...
Way, way, way too many to relitigate.

Though I bet if the tables were turned we wouldn’t hear the end of it, how “You didn’t give him a chance! Look how grand the movie is!” Of course with Kinberg at the helm, fat chance that was ever going to happen.

All that said, most people called this, but who knew it would actually be worse. Last I checked it’s got a 20+% rating on RT and is looking at a sub-$40Mil opening weekend. It would be lucky to earn $100Mil for its domestic total. It certainly takes a certain kind of “talent” to sink not one but two once-venerated IP’s.

If Fox wasn’t bought out, I have to wonder what the studio’s reaction would be right now.
 
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It's a bit naiive to beleive that Kinberg, Penn and Ratner are entirely to blame for the low points of X3. It's been well documented that the studio mandated certain things.

And it would be naiive to believe the studio let the first time director (producing hat aside) do whatever he wanted this time out, either.

I just want to say this to anyone defending Simon Kinberg for this or other cinematic offenses: This movie is his fault. If you like it thank him, if you didn’t be respectfully angry at him (I’ve thrown a couple of expletives here and there, but don’t follow my lead on that one).

Back on the X3 days he wasn’t entirely to blame and the studio had some mandates, but still most of the terrible dialogue and settings all came from his head, while all the notes from the studio (cough Rothman cough) were for the movie to end the trilogy and have some sense of finality (so to not have to pay this giant cast a raise in the next movie if there ever was one) and for Halle and Hugh’s relationship to have a somewhat romantic undercurrent (which never really happened), and for Halle to have a bigger role to justify the giant paycheck.
 
I honestly believe Kindberg’s heart was in the right place making this one. This didnt feel like X3 where it felt like he and Brett Ratner were actively and purposely out to piss off the fans for fun in every single scene. I just think this was a case of a first time director not really knowing how to handle something of this scale.

But even with that said, I think Kindberg handled the drama well, I found myself engaged in the talky scenes and even teared up slightly with one. Although it may have been less Kindberg and more the seasoned cast being able to dramatize the script in a visceral way. I think many will find it too pretentious and serious and somber but I feel like there should be room in our comic book movie dominated world for movies like this that are heavy on drama. Just my opinion.

I think it's also a case of not knowing the material well enough. Kinberg might glance at the books but he is not truly aware of what works and what doesn't. He is probably also doing exactly what the executives want, so he is known as 'good to work with' rather than difficult.

But, seriously, he had chance to give Storm dialogue and a more meaningful role but he just amped up her power displays. Well, we all know Storm's powers look great on screen but we also want to see some personality - there's a reason her X2 convo with Nightcrawler is so well regarded.

Sometimes he pays lip service to the material and it shows; it's just not enough these days. The MCU captures the spirit of the material far better, so that even when it deviates (fat Thor etc), it can get away with it.

Also, the studio obviously had no real faith in the material, they were using the film rights to employ and promote certain actors. Their interest was not really in the X-Men as such.

Remember this was the studio where executives asked: "But does Daredevil really have to be blind?" When you have morons like that in charge, adaptations are always coming to be a mixed bag. I think the good things in the X-Men movies were in spite of the studio, not because of it...
 
I think movie also had a Justice League situation where the studio told Kindberg “make it as short as humanly possible so we can make as much money possible because at this point f*** it.” I have to believe theres 20-30mins of footage int he editing bay somewhere that was excised for this reason. Act III feels really rushed. Not quite Fant4stic level rushed but the climax of the film feels way too quick.
 
Way, way, way too many to relitigate.

Though I bet if the tables were turned we wouldn’t hear the end of it, how “You didn’t give him a chance! Look how grand the movie is!” Of course with Kinberg at the helm, fat chance that was ever going to happen.

All that said, most people called this, but who knew it would actually be worse. Last I checked it’s got a 20+% rating on RT and is looking at a sub-$40Mil opening weekend. It would be lucky to earn $100Mil for its domestic total. It certainly takes a certain kind of “talent” to sink not one but two once-venerated IP’s.

If Fox wasn’t bought out, I have to wonder what the studio’s reaction would be right now.

It seemed pretty obvious that Kinberg would repeat his own 'flaws' as it's clearly how he works and how he sees the material - even more obvious when the trailers and clips started to hit.

If Fox hadn't been bought by Disney, I think the team X-Men would be rested and they'd move on to those spin-offs like Deadpool 3/X-Force, Multiple Man, Kitty Pride. They'd probably also spend a bit on finishing New Mutants, since it only cost $40-$50million.
 
There's not really any place in this movie where Simon Kinberg shows that he doesn't understand the characters, though, and plenty where he shows that he does understand the dynamics.

I agree that the studio is leveraging certain actors again, and one in particular is obvious, but to say that there's no focus on the X-Men as a team would be incorrect. There isn't the focus on all of the specific relationships and types of development that fans wanted to see or that would have made up for the slights of past films, I.E.
(giving Storm more development and her due, developing Scott into a leader)
, but the concept of the X-Men themselves and the school that created them is something the movie gets right, and that is core to DARK PHOENIX in a way it has perhaps not been in past films. The movie is more about the group and what they mean to each other than most of the X-Men movies have been.

Honestly, the pacing was kind of a weird thing for me, and I definitely think it needed to be longer, but I'm curious how it feels on a second viewing. I thought the film felt rushed in places (a key character's final scene, and very specific story beats in Act I, II and III), but not overall. For the most part it flows pretty well given its runtime. And when it does rush, it then kind of slows down just enough for key moments to breathe. The climax feels like it arrives quickly, but once it gets there, it's a fairly well paced third act, I think. I don't love the pacing of the denoument.

It's all well and good to hate on Kinberg for not checking all the boxes effectively here, but what some seem to have wanted him to do here (with limited runtime, mind you) is the equivalent of someone telling the Russos not to focus on Iron Man, Captain America, Thor, Black Widow and Hulk in favor of more underserved characters. That's just not the way any big budget studio franchise works, and it just wasn't going to happen here. And I do think a lot of that lies with the studio or the group of producers in charge of these movies, not just Simon Kinberg. There are going to be limitations to any big budget outing, and I think he did a fairly solid job given what he had to work with. Basically, it's kind of hard to buy that some of the more frustrating elements that have been somewhat "formula" for FOX regarding this franchise dating back to X-MEN can all be laid at only Simon Kinberg's feet this time around.
 
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I think we can now safely put to rest the narrative that some of the more malodorous aspects of The Last Stand *wasn’t* Kinberg’s fault.

Wolverine and Jean love story:
Defense: That was obviously studio-mandated. Scott died so Penn/Kinberg had to find a believable way for a character to off Jean. What better than a character who “loves” her to set her free!
Counter: Kinberg has been quoted in the last week that he thinks a sizeable aspect of The Dark Phoenix Saga from the comics is the Wolverine-Jean Love Story.
“If you know the Dark Phoenix story, you’d want to really service the love story between Logan and Jean,” Kinberg continued. “And I think the notion of Hugh Jackman, as great as he looks for his age, and Sophie Turner — it didn’t sit well with me. Or anyone else!”

Killing off Cyclops and/or Xavier:
Defense: Cyclops was obviously killed off because James Marsden betrayed the franchise to go fondueing with Singer on the Superman Returns set in Australia! Killing off Xavier was one of the best set pieces of the movie!
Counter: Killing off Scott and/or Xavier might have been a by-product of the drama surrounding the movie, but Kinberg and Penn defended it at that time. He also killed off the X-men’s leader in his second round of this adaptation so he clearly sees a benefit to it.

I’ll add more later. It’s way too early for me lol

Feel free to pile on.
 
"Disney's release of Fox's Dark Phoenix is also missing expectations, delivering an estimated $14 million on Friday, heading toward a three-day gross around $35 million. The film, which was the worst reviewed of the X-Men franchise, received a "B-" CinemaScore from opening day audiences."


The bad news keeps coming! A part of me wishes Disney wasn't involved. I'd LOVE to see Kinberg and Fox try to spin this.
 
There's not really any place in this movie where Simon Kinberg shows that he doesn't understand the characters, though, and plenty where he shows that he does understand the dynamics.

I agree that the studio is leveraging certain actors again, and one in particular is obvious, but to say that there's no focus on the X-Men as a team would be incorrect. There isn't the focus on all of the specific relationships and types of development that fans wanted to see or that would have made up for the slights of past films, I.E.
(giving Storm more development and her due, developing Scott into a leader)
, but the concept of the X-Men themselves and the school that created them is something the movie gets right, and that is core to DARK PHOENIX in a way it has perhaps not been in past films. The movie is more about the group and what they mean to each other than most of the X-Men movies have been.

Honestly, the pacing was kind of a weird thing for me, and I definitely think it needed to be longer, but I'm curious how it feels on a second viewing. I thought the film felt rushed in places (a key character's final scene, and very specific story beats in Act I, II and III), but not overall. For the most part it flows pretty well given its runtime. And when it does rush, it then kind of slows down just enough for key moments to breathe. The climax feels like it arrives quickly, but once it gets there, it's a fairly well paced third act, I think. I don't love the pacing of the denoument.

It's all well and good to hate on Kinberg for not checking all the boxes effectively here, but what some seem to have wanted him to do here (with limited runtime, mind you) is the equivalent of someone telling the Russos not to focus on Iron Man, Captain America, Thor, Black Widow and Hulk in favor of more underserved characters. That's just not the way any big budget studio franchise works, and it just wasn't going to happen here. And I do think a lot of that lies with the studio or the group of producers in charge of these movies, not just Simon Kinberg. There are going to be limitations to any big budget outing, and I think he did a fairly solid job given what he had to work with. Basically, it's kind of hard to buy that some of the more frustrating elements that have been somewhat "formula" for FOX regarding this franchise dating back to X-MEN can all be laid at only Simon Kinberg's feet this time around.

I agree with this. Was Kindberg the right guy for this job? Probably not but I felt this movie was a marked step up in effort from Ratner’s offensive Last Stand, Gavin Hood’s absolutely embarrassing X Origins and Singer’s miscalculated Apocalypse. The more intimate dramatic focus worked for me and in the hands of a more seasoned director, like Mangold, that emphasis on drama couldve really sang.
 
As someone who watched the very first X-men film in theaters as a kid, I am sad the franchise comes to an end like this. Honestly for me the ending of this franchise was XDOFP. I will watch this just because it’s the last one and because I know these characters will be in good hands in the future.

Honestly I’m ready for the direction Disney has for my favorite characters in Marvel.

So long Fox, Kinberg and Singer it was nice knowing you, but I’m ready for something new.
 
I think we can now safely put to rest the narrative that some of the more malodorous aspects of The Last Stand *wasn’t* Kinberg’s fault.

Wolverine and Jean love story:
Defense: That was obviously studio-mandated. Scott died so Penn/Kinberg had to find a believable way for a character to off Jean. What better than a character who “loves” her to set her free!
Counter: Kinberg has been quoted in the last week that he thinks a sizeable aspect of The Dark Phoenix Saga from the comics is the Wolverine-Jean Love Story.
“If you know the Dark Phoenix story, you’d want to really service the love story between Logan and Jean,” Kinberg continued. “And I think the notion of Hugh Jackman, as great as he looks for his age, and Sophie Turner — it didn’t sit well with me. Or anyone else!”

He's not wrong, though. Give the development of that angle through multipe films, you couldn't reasonably stick Wolverine into this movie and not address the relationship between those two characters. Well, unless you did so in the cameo I suggested.

There's a precedent for what they put into X3 regarding Jean and Logan. It's not in Claremont's Dark Phoenix saga (neither was The Cure), but it is in a Dark Phoenix storyline from the comics.

Killing off Cyclops and/or Xavier:
Defense: Cyclops was obviously killed off because James Marsden betrayed the franchise to go fondueing with Singer on the Superman Returns set in Australia! Killing off Xavier was one of the best set pieces of the movie!
Counter: Killing off Scott and/or Xavier might have been a by-product of the drama surrounding the movie, but Kinberg and Penn defended it at that time. He also killed off the X-men’s leader in his second round of this adaptation so he clearly sees a benefit to it.

But defending it is just toeing the company line, which happens constantly in Hollywood and elsewhere. It's part of business. It doesn't mean they wanted to do it, or had any power over the decision at the time.

The similaritiy between that and DARK PHOENIX is that an X-Men field leader dies and people are sad. That's about where the similarity ends. The results of that event are far more varied here.

A major component of this movie is about the testing of leadership, whereas X3 was more about the evolution of leadership in the absence of it. The concepts focused on in this movie were essentially given lip service in X3, with Wolverine questioning Xavier briefly and Phoenix being angry at him for trying to repress her. Here, there are entire scenes and evolution of characters based around this idea. It's handled better here and with more complexity than it was in THE LAST STAND..

There's also an emotional and story component to the deaths in this movie based on previous films that perhaps did not exist in THE LAST STAND. As supporting characters, the relationships between Xavier and his students and the relationship between Cyclops and Jean were simply not developed as heavily or effectively in the original franchise as the relationship between
the First Class crew has been
.
 
"Disney's release of Fox's Dark Phoenix is also missing expectations, delivering an estimated $14 million on Friday, heading toward a three-day gross around $35 million. The film, which was the worst reviewed of the X-Men franchise, received a "B-" CinemaScore from opening day audiences."


The bad news keeps coming! A part of me wishes Disney wasn't involved. I'd LOVE to see Kinberg and Fox try to spin this.

This deeply saddens me.
 

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