Dark Phoenix X-Men: Dark Phoenix Skepticism Thread

[Eclipse]

well you have said to others what i have been trying to say for years.wolverine was most popular x-men character for years before the films.why do people think singer and donner wanted him to be focal character in first place.and marvel itself overextended his use in comics.ask people in 80's and 90's if there was ever going to be x-men films and they wouldn't use wolverine they would have thought you were crazy.

Indeed! The problem is that most of these "comic-book accuracy arguments" are not based on any logic but on a very specific head canons of some fan individuals who claim ownership over these characters. In the end, you can always find the right comic book storyline to justify the movie-verse handing of these characters. Wolverine was and is the most beloved X-Men. I don't particular care about him but obviously (and sadly) he has a great masculine, mainstream pull. the marvel universe also rotates around white, cocky males (Thor, Captain America, Ant-Man, Spider-Man, Iron Man are basically the same archetypical character). It is the sad reality of mainstream cinema coming from the United States...

I personally love what they have done with Magneto, Xavier, Wolverine, Mystique, and Jean Grey so far. They decided to give these handful of characters some wonderful depths and development. Following the life stories of these characters through so many time periods have been nothing but pleasant!

And now the new trilogy will start and they will obviously shift the focus to a new team introduced in "X:Apocalypse". So anybody should be happy. Luckily, they will not abandon characters like Xavier, Magneto and Mystique altogether!

 

[Eclipse]

And making Mystique into a hero is an injustice to the comics especially when the likes of Rogue, Psylocke, Cyclops, Storm, Angel, Beast have yet to fully shine. Not to mention, the lameexcuse of Mystique still appearing in human form.

is it though?

here a clear explanation who Mystique is in the comic books:

"Ultimately, Raven became Mystique"

Claremont disagrees with your take on the character! She has been extremely psychotic at times, for sure, but she has also been presented as a revolutionary and as a "social engineering" how Claremont calls her! If I remember it right, author Cullen also recently explained that Mystique's powers influence her personality. Every time she changed her body, so does her psyche. This is what makes her mentally sick.

Same as Magneto (You remember that Xavier wanted him to take over for him and that he has been the first teacher of the New Mutants?) . it is the decision of the filmmaker what interpretation of these characters they choose. They gave us a wonderful explanation in Days of Future Past why Mystique did not became the killer from the first timeline. I don't mind that at all. She is still clearly opposing Xavier's take on the world.

 

[Matt.S99]

Yeah, I don't really think it is a disservice to the character to make Mystique an ally, I just wish they showed her more as a villain first and then had her eventually becoming an ally. Maybe people would be less turned off that that? I don't know.

To me, I don't really care either way about how they handled the character, I'm just not a huge fan of Jen Lawrence's take, but that is just a personal preference. (I also HATE the makeup job they did on her)

 

[Mad Ones]

I also thought Mystique was good in FC and great in DOFP. I wish they showed Mystique adventuring off on her own in Apocalypse, creating a group of freedom fighters that includes Destiny, and through the course of the story adopts Rogue. They could have kept Mystique friendly with the X-men and it would have added the family theme of the movie better than fridging Magneto's wife and daughter. Eventual tensions and conflict of interests could arise that would make Mystique and her team antagonistic but not villainous.

The movies have made Mystique the voice that encourages Xavier to put children in combat. It's easy to forget that comic book Xavier made a group of child soldiers to fight Magneto and other villains. The movies give that role to Mystique, who is already more proactive and aggressive than Xavier. I see possible tension in DP with Xavier wanting the X-men to more self-defensive and Mystique wanting them to be a strike force.

 

[The Guard]

Wasn't Mystique the voice AGAINST putting children in combat in APOCALYPSE for a good portion of APOCALYPSE? Isn't there a sequence where she flat out says "This isn't what they need" with regard to her freedom fighter persona inspiring them?

Yes, she arrives there eventually, but so do all of them. Beast was pushing for the X-Men to be restarted, Charles was a bit naive about the need for them, and Mystique eventually came around to the need to have the X-Men.

It's not like Mystique is the only reason the X-Men exist.

 

[2kt09]

Wasn't Mystique the voice AGAINST putting children in combat in APOCALYPSE for a good portion of APOCALYPSE? Isn't there a sequence where she flat out says "This isn't what they need" with regard to her freedom fighter persona inspiring them?

Yes, she arrives there eventually, but so do all of them. Beast was pushing for the X-Men to be restarted, Charles was a bit naive about the need for them, and Mystique eventually came around to the need to have the X-Men.

It's not like Mystique is the only reason the X-Men exist.

I can't succinctly describe what her character arc was beyond she doesn't have to be such a loner with the singular mission of rescuing mutants and then ditching them to move on to the next. Her retort to Charles was about not having a stance/clear line of action when sh** goes down because he's so assured that the worst is behind them.

 

[Frankeh]

I don't particular care about him but obviously (and sadly) he has a great masculine, mainstream pull. the marvel universe also rotates around white, cocky males (Thor, Captain America, Ant-Man, Spider-Man, Iron Man are basically the same archetypical character). It is the sad reality of mainstream cinema coming from the United States...

That explains even less why someone like Cyclops was wasted, then.

And now the new trilogy will start and they will obviously shift the focus to a new team introduced in "X:Apocalypse".

Don't count your eggs before they hatch.

 

[The Guard]

I can't succinctly describe what her character arc was beyond she doesn't have to be such a loner with the singular mission of rescuing mutants and then ditching them to move on to the next. Her retort to Charles was about not having a stance/clear line of action when sh** goes down because he's so assured that the worst is behind them.

That's true. She's for a more militant approach in general, but doesn't seem to really believe in Xavier's dream. They sort of come together with regard to what the X-Men should be, a more militant force that can protect that dream.

 

[Lip]

I'd like to see a change in the makeup too. Especially the hair. I'd love to see an approach like these:

or

But I don't think it's gonna be that big. At least we know, judging by the end of Apocalypse, she'll be wearing some clothes now.

 

[BeholdMe]

I really hope they change up that slick back hair do it just doesnt work anymore. Give me a sexy red bob.

 

[psylockolussus]

Long hair would be fab!

 

[Lip]

We'll see. I hope she'll look better than this:

 

[psylockolussus]

God, that last scene was hard to watch!

 

[Lip]

God, that last scene was hard to watch!

LOL. It still is. Even watching this gif. "You're X-Men"

Goooooood

 

[SumT]

she would fit better in a Smurfs sequel

 

[BeholdMe]

she would fit better in a Smurfs sequel

Lmao I cannot deal

Long hair would be fab!

I know right

We'll see. I hope she'll look better than this:

That was mess as well as the line delivery being cringeworthy. They need to recycle that tired look.

 

[psylockolussus]

Ideally, if Apocalypse was truly the end of the Fc cast being the focus... Then they should have ended the story of Erik and Raven right there. It should have ended in Dofp during those parting ways scene. I just don't see why in every freaking X-Men film that isn't a Wolverine solo or a Deadpool solo or a New Mutants film, These two have to return again and again especially these two are some of the most well known villains of the X-Men and you know I prefer to see the heroes not the villains turned anti heroes. Its like the X-Men can't live without these two but somehow they can, without the more iconic X-Men heroes. It is just awful.

And I don't really buy the idea that they would get a smaller role in this and if they do, they could have just left them out of the picture.

So let's tally the appearance of the X-Men characters from the comics that joined the team (not counting cameo roles) in the X-Men team films
Xavier - 7
Erik - 7
Raven - 7

Storm - 6
Cyclops - 5
Phoenix - 5
Beast - 5
Wolverine - 4
Iceman - 4
Jubilee - 4 all meaningless roles
Shadowcat - 3 I didn't count X2 since that was just 1scene
Rogue - 3
Colossus - 3
Nightcrawler - 3
Psylocke - 3
Havok - 3
Angel - 2
Sabretooth/Juggernaut/Emma/Banshee/Darwin/Bishop/Blink/Warpath/Sunspot/Dazzler/Sunfire - 1
Gambit/Forge/Polaris/X-23 - 0

Umm Xavier okay but Erik and Raven, seriously 7 freaking times!

 

[psylockolussus]

she would fit better in a Smurfs sequel

Maybe Fox should team up with Sony for a cross over.

 

[Mad Ones]

Wasn't Mystique the voice AGAINST putting children in combat in APOCALYPSE for a good portion of APOCALYPSE? Isn't there a sequence where she flat out says "This isn't what they need" with regard to her freedom fighter persona inspiring them?

Yes, she arrives there eventually, but so do all of them. Beast was pushing for the X-Men to be restarted, Charles was a bit naive about the need for them, and Mystique eventually came around to the need to have the X-Men.

It's not like Mystique is the only reason the X-Men exist.

I don't recall Mystique being against children in combat, nor did I say Mystique was the only reason the X-men exist. But a major part of Apocalypse was about Xavier being a pacifist in the school and Mystique feeling like he's sheltering his students from reality. "Just because there isn't a war doesn't mean there's peace" is the reason for the X-men's existence and Mystique says it early in the film.

 

[Eclipse]

Umm Xavier okay but Erik and Raven, seriously 7 freaking times!

why not? Marvel constantly gets heat for very bad depictions of
boring villain. Singer was smart enough to know that the world is not black and white and spend a lot of time to develop the villain of the franchise as much as the heroes. Especially, when it comes to X-Men comics, villains are constantly going back and forth between both sides.

 

[psylockolussus]

No. But enjoy Raven and Erik for nth time.

 

[henzINNIT]

I also thought Mystique was good in FC and great in DOFP. I wish they showed Mystique adventuring off on her own in Apocalypse, creating a group of freedom fighters that includes Destiny, and through the course of the story adopts Rogue. They could have kept Mystique friendly with the X-men and it would have added the family theme of the movie better than fridging Magneto's wife and daughter. Eventual tensions and conflict of interests could arise that would make Mystique and her team antagonistic but not villainous.

The movies have made Mystique the voice that encourages Xavier to put children in combat. It's easy to forget that comic book Xavier made a group of child soldiers to fight Magneto and other villains. The movies give that role to Mystique, who is already more proactive and aggressive than Xavier. I see possible tension in DP with Xavier wanting the X-men to more self-defensive and Mystique wanting them to be a strike force.

Agreed on all counts.

Mystique was great in DOFP. I don't mind the "face of mutants" angle, and I don't even mind it being used as an excuse reduce make-up time. Her story was just boring in Apocalypse. She's pretty much doing the same things as she was 10 years ago. Mystique leading her own team would have been interesting. Considering what they did with Magneto, Mystique may as well have been leading a different kind of Brotherhood.

 

[psylockolussus]

I really want to see Avalanche.

Destiny could be interesting but Avalanche is like the token henchman that is common to the series. I won't complain if he's another Toad or Riptide. While Destiny would need more screentime to really work and I don't think they have space for her in this film.

 

[Lip]

The only reason I want to see Destiny it's because of her relatioship with Raven.

 

[X-Maniac]

Destiny is only gonna work if her precognitive powers or her diaries are part of the story. Otherwise there's no point having her there.

People would ask why she suddenly popped up now and why her precognitive abilities were not brought into play for the previous films. Also I doubt they would have her in a relationship with Mystique.

Avalanche could work as a henchman, but he has little value other than destruction porn FX.