X3 personality inconsistencies

Discussion in 'X-Men 1, 2 & 3' started by Theweepeople, Dec 24, 2007.

  1. Theweepeople Registered

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    Another thing I didn't like about X3 was Beast's decision to close down the school. That decision was downright bizzare. I didn't expect a person as wise and inteligent as Beast to make that choice. Did Beast really think that's what Xavier would have wanted if he died after spending many years creating that institution? Beast didn't think Xavier's would want his dream to be continued by his proteges? What would happen to all the young children at the school? Would all of them be able to easy be integrated back into society? What about the ones who were orphans?

    What's even more bizzare is that Storm who lacks the inteligence and wisdom of sounds like a genius by suggesting the school should stay open just because Angel shows up? Then Beast doesn't question Storm's decision because he quickly realizes how moronic his idea was. Furthermore, what in the hell were the writers thinking when they came up with this scene. This was one of the worst scenes I've seen in a comic book film in years.
     
  2. X-Maniac High Evolutionary

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    Beast smiles to himself when Storm says the school would stay open. It seemed to me that Beast was trying to motivate/manipulate Storm into taking over as head of the school. Clearly, she never expected to have to run the school and she didn't see herself as the next replacement for Xavier (as we see when she speaks to Xavier earlier in the school corridor); also she was grieving at the time so she wasn't thinking in a completely rational, clear-headed way. It doesn't seem that bizarre for her to want to just give it all up if she's upset over what happened to Xavier, which shattered the 'world' of the school and the X-Men in a defining way. In a time of distress, you might well want to walk away from the place associated with that distress.

    It took the arrival of Angel - a new student, someone actively seeking sanctuary, proving the school was still needed and still relevant to the wider world out there - to persuade her to rise to the responsibiity, to give her the self-belief and strength to assume the mantle of head/principal of the school.

    Although it's very convenient that Angel turns up at that moment (and it felt a little clunky to me), these sorts of conveniences are common in movies where people happen to be in a certain place a a certain time, so it's forgivable.
     
  3. Theweepeople Registered

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    Well, that's an interesting theory however, I think that's one really big assumption to make from a character smiling for a second. If the writers really were this creative they should have had a quick scene which confirmed Beast's intentions. The writers made many mistakes with big details in this film. I doubt that they tried hard to get the smaller details right.
     
  4. X-Maniac High Evolutionary

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    I think the intention of this scene was saying that, in essence, Xavier WAS the school.

    But a scene involving the students/X-Men discussing the school's future in their shock and grief could have been done better. You're right that keeping alive Xavier's dream by keeping the school going was the obvious thing to happen.
     
  5. Maybe it's just me but I would've taken a different route with the school. This is called X-Men: The Last Stand right? It does pertain to an epic apocalyptic scenario which means chaos, destruction, and loss? If I were writing the film I'd have the school raided and destroyed altogether.

    My inspiration of course comes from X-Men Legends II: Rise of the Apocalypse. In one of the cutscenes of the game Apocalypse and his soldiers infiltrate the Mansion, kidnap Beast, and set off a destructive explosion that destroys the school and sends the X-Men to another location.

    Where would this lead up to? I don't know. But it was an interesting concept that I felt could've been used in the Last Stand. I think it would've given the film itself more of an emotional edge to it.
     
  6. Theweepeople Registered

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    I bought and played both X-Men legends games. It's quite amazing that the writers of those games had better ideas for X-Men 3 than Simon Kinberg and Zak Penn. What's interesting is this game was released around the time that X-Men 3 started filming. Some critics who reviewed X-Men legends 2 were apparently aware of the infamous X3 script by suggesting that Fox should have hired the PC game writers to write the script.

    Lastsunrise, do you know if an X-Men Legends 3 is being developed?
     
  7. It's possible that one is being developed. Unfortunately I haven't heard any news regarding an X-Men Legends 3 game. You would think after the success of both X-Men Legends games and Marvel: Ultimate Alliance that some news would be released pertaining to the franchises.

    But at this point there could be on development, but I sincerely don't know what's going on with it.
     
  8. Nell2ThaIzzay Registered

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    for once, i actually agree with thewheepeople.

    this was one of those scenes that i thought was poorly conceptualized, and poorly executed.

    it does seem out of character for one of xavier's original students to want to close down his mentor's school. angel's appearance was way too convenient. i'm not really a fan of this scene at all.

    on the same note, i wouldn't want a story anything like "x-men legends 2" to be in the movie. i love the x-men legends games, but the storyline in x-men legends 2 just didn't do it for me. i guess i'm just not a huge fan of the out there apocalypse storylines and such.

    now, the first x-men legends? i could see a story like that making for a good movie.
     
  9. Theweepeople Registered

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    Really? So after contributing to this forum since I first started posting here in June of 2006 and after seeing all the threads that I started this is the very first time that you actually agree with something I said. Yeah right.:oldrazz:
     
  10. Maybe not copy the X-Men Legends II storyline, but use elements from the game to give the films more of an emotional epic vibe. Like I said, instead of having Apocalypse destroy the mansion, an anti-mutant group or even Phoenix in her rage destroys it while killing innocent mutants and so forth.

    But I prefer the Apocalypse angle more than anything else. I've always loved his storyline, his power, and the fact that his only purpose is to literaly destroy anything and everything. Apocalypse's storyline isn't truly out there when you think about it.
     
  11. Nell2ThaIzzay Registered

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    i don't know - i don't -hate- it or anything, but when it comes to x-men, i have always enjoyed the more political stories. that's a major reason why i am so happy with the x-men trilogy as is, even with the flaws i find in all 3 movies, because in the end, they to me captured what is the foundation of the x-men lore.

    just how you really like your dark and epic stories (and that's not a criticism at all), i like more grounded types of stories that i can picture happening in real life (even though i like the fantastic twist :))

    so i enjoy it much more when the x-men are dealing with the brotherhood over political issues such as oppression and such; magneto's quest for mutant equality and his methods amounting to fighting for mutant superiority; sentinels as mankind's weapon of hatred towards a group of people.

    the sinister and apocalypse stories are fun and stuff, but i don't like them as much. for example, my favorite character, gambit - i like the mutant massacre type stuff, but i don't like the surgeries and procedures that sinister did on gambit to limit his powers.

    but i get what you're saying about a catastrophic event destroying the mansion, and yes, you're right, that does differ from an all out x-men legends 2 copy. as far as that actually happening though, well, we already had an attack on the mansion in the 2nd one, i don't know if we'd need to see it again. at the same time, i thought juggernaut attacking the mansion in x3 would be a good idea.
     
  12. Nell2ThaIzzay Registered

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    you'd be surprised :word:
     
  13. Theweepeople Registered

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    I am surprised at one thing. How often you don't recognize your own BS. I remember you saying this same silly phrase a couple of times this year. Furthermore, when I first started contributing to these forums there were multiple times when we agreed on things. Cyclops demise was the most obvious example and definitely not the only one. Our opinions might have been different but, we both respectfully agreed to disagree on things until you went completely crazy on me last January.

    What I find really perplexing is why you would say that silly phrase to begin with? I'm not sure what you're motivation was. I can only come to the conclusion that this was a really bizzare way of trying to tell people who contribute to this forum that we rarely agree on things. I know that explanation didn't make much sense but, at least I made an attempt to understand your madness. Just in case that really was your intention the next time you have the desire to post that silly message again after agreeing with me on another point don't bother. Most people knew we rarely agreed on things months ago.
     
  14. X-Maniac High Evolutionary

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    I just had a 'vision' for an alternative version of this scene. It would be set in the study, as in the movie, with maybe some drinks on the table, implying they were gathered after the funeral service. They'd be still and silent, until Beast spoke...

    Beast: "So, Ororo, the torch has been passed to you. As the new head of the school, you must ensure Charles's dream lives on."

    Storm says nothing at first, the responsibility weighs heavy.

    Storm: "I wasn't ready for this, I wasn't expecting any of it."

    Wolverine: "None of us were. But it's what Xavier would have wanted."

    Iceman: "It's also the right thing to do. You have to continue the school, it can't just end now. Some of us have nowhere else to go."

    Storm gets up and turns, facing the window: "I know. And there's no way the school would close. With Charles and Scott gone, I know it's down to me to try to pick up the pieces and carry on."

    Outside, a huge shadow flies across the low, bright sun and lands on the lawn. They all look out of the window.

    Wolverine: "What the...??"

    Storm goes outside. The winged figure speaks.

    "My name's Warren Worthington, the third."

    Storm: "I know that name, from the news. Your father..."

    Warren interrupts: "I heard what happened. Is this still a safe place for mutants. I have nowhere else to go."

    Storm smiles: "Yes, Charles Xavier's dream is still very much alive here. We'll find you a room. Come on in"
     
  15. Theweepeople Registered

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    Every time someone presents an example of a better alternate scene for X3 I'm reminded of how horrid a job Simon and Zak did with the dialogue for numerous scenes in this movie.
     
  16. Fair enough. The attack on the mansion in X2 was pretty cool and very tense, suspenseful, and realistic at the same time as it was done in a unique almost Splinter Cellish fashion. However, I feel the mythos of the X-Men in all of the films wasn't explored to its fullest potential and that they really didn't take it to the next level.

    Don't get me wrong now I LOVED X1 and X2. Hell, I still love them very much and watch them when I can, but I just feel that all three films really didn't take it to its fullest potential and the material suffered because of it. That's why I was saying a restart would be better as it could put placed into a directors hands who knows and understands the characters, the powers, and the emotional epic nature of the stories that it brings.

    I'm curious, what did you think of Juggernaut's look in X3? If he was to attack the mansion in X3 he should've had a much more vicious intimidating look that was more faithful to his comic book counterpart. With the way he looked there's no way I could've bought him doing any kind of damage to the mutants should he have invaded the mansion. I also feel they really missed the opportunity to explore the Sentinel program. I think we all can agree that ignoring the what happened with Dark Cerebro ruined a great opportunity to introduce the Sentinels.
     
  17. X-Maniac High Evolutionary

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    X3 definitely had the weakest dialogue (and the weakest writing and acting). In X1 and X2 there is no poor dialogue at all, it all sounds right. Those two movies succeed on consistency in their content/substance even if they weren't as visually colourful as X3.

    I don't think Ratner or Kinberg were well-versed enough in the characters, the source material or the previous movies. I'm not sure about Zak, he was involved in the story for X2 and probably has a stronger connection to the material. And, in fairness, Ratner had eight weeks before filming started, so he didn't get much time to immerse himself in the X-Men mythology.

    I'm glad you liked my dialogue, especially as it was just done in a few moments and not prepared earlier. Wait until you see/read my dialogue in my X4 script! :woot:
     
  18. Nell2ThaIzzay Registered

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    dude, what?!

    i didn't say that to try to start anything, i just said it because, we rarel agree on anything. i'm sorry if it offended you, it wasn't meant to.

    i'm sorry that when i made the post, that i wasn't thinking of the times that we hd agreed. i'm not sure why you felt offended over my post, i was just trying to have an innocent discussion with you, and i thought that's what we were having. if i offended you in any way, i apologize. that definately wasn't my purpose.
     
  19. Nell2ThaIzzay Registered

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    this is definately a better concept of that scene than what we actually got. while i'm a fan of x3, that scene just never felt any kind of natural to me. in fact, the entire post funeral sequence - with the meeting in the study, iceman asking colossus if he's seen rogue, jean calling out to logan at xavier's grave stone, and storm confronting wolverine about leaving to go find jean, all seem very unnatural.

    we've discussed the closing of the mansion scene.

    with iceman asking colossus if he's seen rogue, how could colossus have "seen" rogue leave, when the conversation was just between rogue and wolverine and there was nobody there to witness it or overhear it? also, colossus only gets his strength when he is armored up. not being armored up, there is no way he could carry the tv like that.

    with storm confronting logan about going after jean, i just hate the "because you love her" line. not to mention that storm, who would have been like jean's sister, completely gives up and abandons jean.

    i like your concept for the scene involving keeping the school open. it it very much more in character for everyone involved, gives angel a cooler scene, and while it's just as convenient for him to show up when he does, it doesn't seem as forced as him just walking into the room right when he's needed. it also makes angel's character a bit more epic, with the graceful landing on the porch and such.
     
  20. Nell2ThaIzzay Registered

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    this is the advantage that i feel x-men the last stand has over the other 2. playing x-men legends, the first one, made me realize that you can have a grounded, political story, but still have exciting x-men action. okay, so you take out asteroid m and stuff, and you got yourself a good storyline that could work in the realistic universe of the movies.

    this was to me, one of the things that x-men the last stand did absolutely right. it upped the scale of the action, and made it much more exciting, while keeping the universe grounded and realistic. x3 is definately flawed, don't get me wrong, but i think it did do things right too, and this is one of them. to me, this movie really exposed singer's flaw, and that was him holding the movies back a bit too much.

    i still disagree with a restart. for me, i think it's okay for CERTAIN things, like batman or superman, which is just so huge they will be done over and over again until the end of time, but beyond a few exceptions, i don't like reboots, remakes, etc... i just think you make a movie, and let it stand on it's own, and if it didn't satisfy, then it's just not a movie you enjoy.

    i guess it's different for something like comic films, because everyone wants to see it done right in their own way. but i still am of the belief that you either accept it for what it is, or you don't, but don't keep remaking it. it is what it is. every fan is going to have a different idea of what is correct, and a remake you may love, but other fans may despise it. you can't make a film to please everyone. i'd rather see originality, and new, creative movies coming out instead of the same thing over and over again.

    i don't mind juggernaut's look in the film at all actually. i think someone posted on here a long time ago, when his look was first revealed, a comic panel where juggernaut looked exactly like he does in the movie, so i guess in that sense, it's not like it's unaccurate.

    i don't have a problem with his look at all. actually, i liked juggernaut in the film altogether. my only complaint about juggernaut was how they decided to take him out. i do understand that leech obviously negated his power, i don't have a problem with that, but running into a wall (when wearing a thick helmet meant for protection) and getting knocked unconcious is just a poor way to take out a big bad villian. call me greedy, but i wanted to see a team battle that showcased the x-men trying to take him out, and not being able to, until finally they figure out some kind of way that they can defeat him. just like the cartoons and comics. his fight with wolverine was a good start to show his strength, but they needed to do more.

    i do agree with you on sentinels. i felt like it was a given that sentinels weren't touched upon. it was set up so perfectly from the end of x2 that no sentinels almost borders on incompetance.

    there is obviously some time that has passed between x2 and x3 (new president, etc...) so the dark cerebro thing probably would have been dealt with (we don't need to see direct consequences), but a sentinel project that's been in effect due to the events at alkali lake - that would have been brilliant. it could have added more drama, with a moral dillema for the president: protect the citizens and unleash sentinels upon alcatraz, endangering the delicate relationship between humans and mutants, or protect the relationship between humans and mutants, but risk the destruction at alcatraz (and beyond) being caused by mutants.

    sentinels were a perfect way to go with this movie (along with a couple other things *cough*gambit*cough*), and a "missed oppourtunity" is an understatement. ignoring sentinels and gambit, which were set up to be introduced PERFECTLY by the previous movie, and the story of x3, is damn near incompetance in my book.

    and that's my biggest complain with x3 - not so much what it WAS (i do love the movie. i find faults with it, but i do love it), but what it COULD HAVE and SHOULD HAVE been.
     
  21. Theweepeople Registered

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    No offense taken. I was just messing around. Sometimes my sense of humor can be very weird. Hopefully, I didn't offend you because that was not my intention.
     
  22. Nell2ThaIzzay Registered

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    no i wasn't offended, i guess it was just a misunderstanding :)
     
  23. Phoenix_Flare Registered

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    X-Maniac I like your version, but I always thought Warren should've been a former team mate who left on bad terms and returns.

    EXT. X-Mansion: Day

    INT. Conference Room

    All the X-Men look in sorrow after Xavier's funeral the following day

    Kitty[ with tears in her eyes]: So what, now? The Professor's is gone, Cyclop's is gone, and Jean! [Logan wince's at the thought of Jean out there alone, confused, and dangerous] What's gonna happen to the team and the school?

    Piotr puts his hand on Kitty's shoulder

    Bobby[in response to Kitty]: Yea Hank, most of us have no families to turn to.

    Beast: Charles started this school as a safe haven for mutants, I think its best that we continue his dream. [he looks over at Storm]

    Piotr: That would mean Storm would take over as headmistress?

    Storm shivers at the thought, knowing that she didn't ask for this responsibility

    Kitty[perks up]: That'll be great! I mean Storm you're like a mother to all of us.

    Bobby, Hank, Piotr smile, while Logan continues looking out the window

    The comment made by Kitty gently moves the weather goddess and she finally speaks

    Ororo: Thanks Kitty, but Charles spent years training Scott to take his place. I wouldn't know the first thing to do.

    Hank: Ororo [pause] Charles has taught all of us to lead and carry on his dream. You're not alone, I'll be right along side you.

    [Bobby, Kitty, and Piotr await Storm's answer] Thanks to Hank's comment, it gave Storm the confidence she needed to press on for the school and the X-Men

    Logan turns away from the window as his super-keen hearing let's him know that someone is coming down the hall

    Enters Warren Worthington III

    Everyone turns to look at the man

    Angel: I'm sorry Storm I know this is a bad time [beat] but I was wondering if there is a room available for a former teammate?

    Hank chuckles to himself...Seeing Angel, made Storm realize that their are people young and older who need a safe place to turn to.

    Storm approaches Warren and takes his hands into her own

    Storm[with a smile]: Of course. Bobby, Kitty, Piotr tell the students that the school stays open.

    The young members of the team rejoice. Logan smiles to himself knowing that this is the only "home" he has.

    Storm (off screen): Let's find you a room.

    END SCENE
     
  24. X-Maniac High Evolutionary

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    ^^^ The trouble is that your scene is not a self-contained 'remix' of an existing scene, it involves major structural change to the rest of the movie in order for your premise of Angel as a much older, former team-member to take place. It would mean additional scenes later to develop the idea of him as a former team-mate, or he would seem a bit one-dimensional and random. Also, some of your characterisations don't seem to quite gel with the movie.

    So, I prefer my scene. It works within the existing movie structure but fleshes out, develops and puts a natural slant on things.
     
  25. Phoenix_Flare Registered

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    Ok but Beast was former teammate to and they didnt develop extra scenes to show or tell why he joined and left...Im not sayin he's the same age as Storm,Jean,Beast, or Cycke but in his late 20's, he was the young 1 in a much mature team...I didn't want 2 "remix" the scene I believe that all the XMen should've had a input makin it more developed and hearfelt...

    Think about the scene w/ WWJr. and Angel when he refused to take the cure, WW Jr. should have mention the school and WW3 replies that was the only true home and family he had and he never should've left...that would made for quick character development and make my scene fit in...
     

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