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Zack Snyder Confirms Ending!

There's some significant differences between WATCHMEN and TDK, along with the obvious fact that WATCHMEN is not going to make $500 million domestic.

1. Snyder is directly adapting a story. There's very little to speculate about.

2. No one significant in the cast died.

3. There's no comparison and contrast with previous movies.
 
I can live without the squid. When reading the story I was like...a giant squid? Really, Vedit? That was your great ominious threat?

On screen it could look a little out there too (well no more than being on Mars, I suppose, but still).

As long as there is mass murder, mayhem and the adventures impotently let Vedit get away with it...and then Seymore finds the journal.

If all that is still in there, then it being a blue flash that is less "third act surprise" that kills New York is acceptable.

I agree.
 
There's some significant differences between WATCHMEN and TDK, along with the obvious fact that WATCHMEN is not going to make $500 million domestic.

1. Snyder is directly adapting a story. There's very little to speculate about.

2. No one significant in the cast died.

3. There's no comparison and contrast with previous movies.
You also forget that TDK had viral marketing games going on that would regularly crash SHH. :oldrazz:
 
What is important is that the attack in the end appear to be extraterrestrial in origin-- the giant squid isn't likely what a shadow gov't would try but neither is a series of nuclear attacks.
 
A series of nuclear attacks in the end draws a line between smart Veidt from comics and moron Veidt in movie.
 
The shot of New York being destroyed uses the same effect that is seen whenever Manhattan teleports. So it looks like something is being teleported and causing the damage.
 
On the ending...

Maybe the world sees costumed/super heroes as the threat as opposed to an alien force and regular people unite to stop the threat of costumed heroes with too much power. they could accomplish this by somehow teleporting a giant replica of dr. manhattan into the same space as new york city and have him explode all over the place like the squid. Since this is really similar to the squid, having the big giant creature exploding, i don't think it's likely.

If they want to keep the ALIEN threat angle they could just teleport Dr. Manhattan's "martian fortress" into NYC if Dr. Manhattan is in fact still somehow being framed but it wouldnt make sense with the island subplot (how could they be building something that wasn't created yet or by them at all?). I guess they could axe that plot to save time (seems as if they already had) and have the comedian seeing veidts plan to frame manhattan in general be why he is murdered.

If Dr. Manhattan isn't framed as it's been hinted...it could just be that he is in on it and after seeing the future, he is going through the motions the whole moving to see if he cares enough about humanity to destroy NYC to unite everyone. his last connection to humanity is the only thing that allows him to actually destroy an entire city. He could than teleport a giant space ship or something into NYC on purpose. the public wouldn't know that manhattan did it so they still unite against the alien threat.

The flaw with the last one is it's too much of a change to the entire story (the costumed heroes and superhero are the ones who don't save the world, the villain does) but i think these possibilities all have elements in them that are likely to turn up in the end.
 
^I think it's more likely that Veidt will frame him and DM will play along after the fact because he realizes the ruse will prevent war, however briefly. That would be more in line with the GN.
 
What do you mean?


Comicbook Veidt wanted to prevent a series of nuclear bombings around the world: to accomplish this feat, he had his calculating mind conceiving a plan that

a) would strike once in one place, for dramatic effect;
b) would strike a city that is famous enough around the world, to get all the attention possible;
c) would employ a fake alien he puts artists, psychics, scientists etc to create, and then erased all the steps to its creation;
d) dropping the fake alien on that one spot would kill thousands of people, also spreading psychic waves that would increase the terror of its strike around the world (his intention is to get empathy and cooperation around the world and end the wars thus).

Well, this cinematic version is a moron, because:

a) will unleash the same effect on the world he is supposedly trying to avoid with his NY killing;
b) will frame Manhattan twice (first time with cancer plot), thus using the same device again;
c) acting thus he'll also prove Manhattan's cinematic version to be a moron, to be framed twice by the same guy in the same plan.
 
I don't know, personally, I think if a god-like being decides he wants to destroy the earth, It's really not going to matter where he originated from, I'm going to do everything I can to prevent that, even if it means working with the enemy. The squid would demand Snyder doing the backstory for it as well, I just don't know how much he could stuff into one movie, which goes back to Moore's point in the first place, in that it wasn't meant for this from the beginning. Regardless, as long as FOX doesn't derail things, I'll be first in line...
 
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Well, since Manhatten is considered a God, and he is framed for bombing NY, it is somehow ironic that the man they thought was God "Betrayed" them. They can unite with that. What if God turned against us so to speak?
 
Well, since Manhatten is considered a God, and he is framed for bombing NY, it is somehow ironic that the man they thought was God "Betrayed" them. They can unite with that. What if God turned against us so to speak?

Exactly, we'd all be scared out of our minds, we wouldn't be sitting around pointing fingers (initially anyway) we'd be trying to get together, which is the point & still very much intact in this version I think, but I guess we'll have to wait and see how things play out, assuming this thing still opens in March :huh:
 
Well, since Manhatten is considered a God, and he is framed for bombing NY, it is somehow ironic that the man they thought was God "Betrayed" them. They can unite with that. What if God turned against us so to speak?

One must be severely Christian to think:

a) there is a God, who would work his mysterious ways to be either for or against us;

b) He is defined as "good", and thus we interpret that as being for us, so if he was against us, we would be surprised.

Manhattan's "god" status is just a piece of scaring propaganda, in the book, inside the mindframe of Cold War, and not a theologic assertion, Jonesy.
 
Well, since Manhatten is considered a God, and he is framed for bombing NY, it is somehow ironic that the man they thought was God "Betrayed" them. They can unite with that. What if God turned against us so to speak?

Exactly, we'd all be scared out of our minds, we wouldn't be sitting around pointing fingers (initially anyway) we'd be trying to get together, which is the point & still very much intact in this version I think, but I guess we'll have to wait and see how things play out, assuming this thing still opens in March :huh:

Um.... people around the globe not in the USA, probably think god betrayed them already. Seeing as he's not only American, but used by the USA to just wipe their enemies of the face of the earth.

Again, another hole in the 'better' ending.
 
Well, this cinematic version is a moron, because:

a) will unleash the same effect on the world he is supposedly trying to avoid with his NY killing;

The principle is still the same. Millions will die instead of billions. Plus, attacking multiple international cities will prove that DM is a world threat, not just an American one.

b) will frame Manhattan twice (first time with cancer plot), thus using the same device again;

I don't have a problem with this. I actually think Veidt's new plan is rather clever, and much simpler than in the GN.

c) acting thus he'll also prove Manhattan's cinematic version to be a moron, to be framed twice by the same guy in the same plan.

I don't think it makes DM out to be a moron. I mean, neither he nor anyone else had any idea that anyone was even trying to frame him for anything. Being bested by the world's smartest man isn't really all that shameful. I suspect that, just like in the GN, he'll play along with his framing in order to ensure world peace.
 
Um.... people around the globe not in the USA, probably think god betrayed them already. Seeing as he's not only American, but used by the USA to just wipe their enemies of the face of the earth.

Again, another hole in the 'better' ending.


I don't think anyone was saying this ending is better, at least not me, I just don't think it changes the point of it. I don't agree with the argument that the world wouldn't come together because of DM's perceived allegiance with America. He was already self-exiled. I don't see why its so farfetched to believe DM returns to earth with no allegiance at all, ready to destroy it? It's not like he's attacking everywhere else and excluding the US. If North Korea came on TV right now and said we created this special weapon but now it's out of control and it may possibly blow up the world, I don't think we'd have enough time to play the blame game, we'd be trying to help
 
The principle is still the same. Millions will die instead of billions. Plus, attacking multiple international cities will prove that DM is a world threat, not just an American one.



I don't have a problem with this. I actually think Veidt's new plan is rather clever, and much simpler than in the GN.



I don't think it makes DM out to be a moron. I mean, neither he nor anyone else had any idea that anyone was even trying to frame him for anything. Being bested by the world's smartest man isn't really all that shameful. I suspect that, just like in the GN, he'll play along with his framing in order to ensure world peace.


a) Principle is completely different. Millions in one city is one clever thing. Millions in many parts of the world is not only stupid for his "peace" purposes of avoiding nuclear war ('cause it "will unleash the same effect on the world he is supposedly trying to avoid with his NY killing"), but also quite didactic and rather ostensive.

b) It is indeed simpler. But the point in the GN was to be so far-fetched that it would be unthinkable. It also conveyed some sense of humour, which is absent from movie version.

c) "I don't think it makes DM out to be a moron. I mean, neither he nor anyone else had any idea that anyone was even trying to frame him for anything. " That's the definition of downright moron for someone who was supposed to be ominiscient.

Keep in mind the original framing in the book had a very gritty and powerful emotional discharge to render Manhattan unable to think coherently.

The "double-framing" is not only a heavy-handed treatment of the idea, it is also absurd in terms of characterization.
 
a) Principle is completely different. Millions in one city is one clever thing. Millions in many parts of the world is not only stupid for his "peace" purposes of avoiding nuclear war ('cause it "will unleash the same effect on the world he is supposedly trying to avoid with his NY killing"), but also quite didactic and rather ostensive.

You clearly misunderstand what Adrien is trying to prevent. He is not trying to prevent a nuclear strike in the world, he is trying to prevent the human race from destroying itself in Nuclear War. Adrien, rightfully so, is more concerned with the consequence of the Nuclear Strike more than the strikes themselves. If Viedt simply wanted to prevent a loss in human life, his comic plan doesn't make sense either.

b) It is indeed simpler. But the point in the GN was to be so far-fetched that it would be unthinkable. It also conveyed some sense of humour, which is absent from movie version.

I don't see how outrageous and from left field the ending necessarily helps the ending in the story - if anything it takes away from it. The ending was suppose to be a surprise because the "bad guy" (though I think Ozy is the hero) never wins.

c) "I don't think it makes DM out to be a moron. I mean, neither he nor anyone else had any idea that anyone was even trying to frame him for anything. " That's the definition of downright moron for someone who was supposed to be ominiscient.

Keep in mind the original framing in the book had a very gritty and powerful emotional discharge to render Manhattan unable to think coherently.

The "double-framing" is not only a heavy-handed treatment of the idea, it is also absurd in terms of characterization.

Doctor Manhattan wasn't ominiscient in the graphic novel either, Ozy was able to cloud his vision of the future in the novel as well. He didn't know what was going to happen then either. Your point is not a good one here.
 
You clearly misunderstand what Adrien is trying to prevent. He is not trying to prevent a nuclear strike in the world, he is trying to prevent the human race from destroying itself in Nuclear War. Adrien, rightfully so, is more concerned with the consequence of the Nuclear Strike more than the strikes themselves. If Viedt simply wanted to prevent a loss in human life, his comic plan doesn't make sense either.



I don't see how outrageous and from left field the ending necessarily helps the ending in the story - if anything it takes away from it. The ending was suppose to be a surprise because the "bad guy" (though I think Ozy is the hero) never wins.



Doctor Manhattan wasn't ominiscient in the graphic novel either, Ozy was able to cloud his vision of the future in the novel as well. He didn't know what was going to happen then either. Your point is not a good one here.

I'm sorry to say, but you were too anxious to say my point isn't a good one there.

Think: :cwink:

a) Veidt is tryin' to prevent a loss in human life, or he wouldn't care about striking once, calculating its effects. He'd just get careless as the movie Veidt, and say: "What the heck, let's just drop the bombs here, there, and everywhere".

b) You are waaaaaay too simplistic about the goals involved in the ending. All things I mentioned are of strong importance for the decent reader.

c) Doc Manhattan was clouded by an emotional plot and tachyons. The first time, to frame him; the second, to avoid his interference. In the movie the "double-framing" is one lack of imagination Moore never had. :oldrazz:
 
Norman responded to your other points basically the way I would have, so I'll just say this:

c) "I don't think it makes DM out to be a moron. I mean, neither he nor anyone else had any idea that anyone was even trying to frame him for anything. " That's the definition of downright moron for someone who was supposed to be ominiscient.

Keep in mind the original framing in the book had a very gritty and powerful emotional discharge to render Manhattan unable to think coherently.

The "double-framing" is not only a heavy-handed treatment of the idea, it is also absurd in terms of characterization.

I'm not sure DM is supposed to be omniscient. He can see the future, yes, but can he see everything, or can he see it only from his own perspective? By that I mean, if I were to kill someone in my house and I was the only witness, I'm not sure he'd be able to see that. If that's the case, there'd be no way for him to know that Ozzy was plotting to frame him. He wouldn't have to be an idiot to be taken off-guard by Ozzy's schemes.

Even if he did know that Ozzy was planning on framing him twice I'm not sure what the problem is. DM himself has said that he's a puppet following a script. If the script says that he's supposed to be fooled by Ozzy's cancer lies and then be framed to be the cause of millions of deaths worldwide, then he'll go along with it.
 
If North Korea came on TV right now and said we created this special weapon but now it's out of control and it may possibly blow up the world, I don't think we'd have enough time to play the blame game, we'd be trying to help

The second the weapon was stopped... everyone would destroy North Korea. Do you not see the problem with this ending?

Doctor Manhattan is such an AMERICAN creation... that even though 'he attacks' New York along with the world... it's not going to stop WW3. It will delay it, at best. Unlike the ALIEN attack which would stop WW3 altogether or at least long enough to pull back the Cold War and maybe even call it off to prepare against any other ALIEN threats.

Manhattan going nuts would just hit pause on the war and looking at not only human nature but just how much they want to kill each other in the novel... Russia would remember that an American weapon attacked the world and killed millions. And that would most likely be dealt with the second everyone realizes that Doctor Manhattan hasn't been around. Also, people know what Manhattan can do... they know he can't be hurt... can't be stopped... if anything, someone might fire a few nukes because nothing matters anymore.
 
Adrian is trying to prevent a civilization-ending nuclear war. He is not trying to avoid death at all costs, or to minimize casualties. If he was, he would not have needed to blow up half New York. He could have just released a psychic shockwave and killed far fewer people. He is willing to do so to create the scale of the fake threat.

I fail to see how a man willing to kill half New York City, a city full of his own countrymen, would somehow balk at killing half of several other cities people if it meant saving the world.

I don't mind the use of "multiple cities", because it makes sense, in the context of bringing the entire world together. It feels a lot more "global". Yes, WATCHMEN had the "psychic shockwave" element, which is cool and all, but this still feels like more of a "politically relevant global impact" than that did.

Dr. Manhattan being framed again isn't writers making him out to be a moron. Veidt's use of tachyons plays a role here as it does in the comic. Manhattan, who can only see his own future, cannot tell what is happening throughout the story because his perception of time is distorted. In addition to this, he is becoming less and less concerned with humanity. And regardless of how much he knows or cares...he goes along with it in the end, just as he does in the novel. So yeah. He's "in on it", since he knows it's the best possible course for Earth at this point. How does that make him a "moron"?.

And I'm sorry...everyone would entirely destroy North Korea because a weapon they created got out of hand? What are you basing that on? What would be the point of that?

A giant squid/fear over alien attack is also going to be somewhat temporary, albeit in a different context. We can't prove what would or would not happen in "the real world" if "event A" or "event B" happened, so let's stop trying to do so. We're basically just speculating, but not doing so in the context of the world and situations that the novel and film presents. Manhattan going rogue isn't the kind of thing that's likely to BE stopped in any event. He's basically telling the Earth "continue these aggressions, and I will destroy you". Near as I can tell, no country in the world would risk nuclear aggression after what he does at the end of the film version of WATCHMEN.

And people, WATCHMEN makes it clear that Veidt's solution was meant to be a temporary one, at best. He intended to help lead the world into a better place after stopping nuclear war.
 
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Adrian is trying to prevent a civilization-ending nuclear war. He is not trying to avoid death at all costs, or to minimize casualties. If he was, he would not have needed to blow up half New York. He could have just released a psychic shockwave and killed far fewer people. He is willing to do so to create the scale of the fake threat.

I fail to see how a man willing to kill half New York City, a city full of his own countrymen, would somehow balk at killing half of several other cities people if it meant saving the world.

I don't mind the use of "multiple cities", because it makes sense, in the context of bringing the entire world together. It feels a lot more "global". Yes, WATCHMEN had the "psychic shockwave" element, which is cool and all, but this still feels like more of a "politically relevant global impact" than that did.

Dr. Manhattan being framed again isn't writers making him out to be a moron. Veidt's use of tachyons plays a role here as it does in the comic. Manhattan, who can only see his own future, cannot tell what is happening throughout the story because his perception of time is distorted. In addition to this, he is becoming less and less concerned with humanity. And regardless of how much he knows or cares...he goes along with it in the end, just as he does in the novel. So yeah. He's "in on it", since he knows it's the best possible course for Earth at this point. How does that make him a "moron"?.

And I'm sorry...everyone would entirely destroy North Korea because a weapon they created got out of hand? What are you basing that on? What would be the point of that?

A giant squid/fear over alien attack is also going to be somewhat temporary, albeit in a different context. We can't prove what would or would not happen in "the real world" if "event A" or "event B" happened, so let's stop trying to do so. We're basically just speculating, but not doing so in the context of the world and situations that the novel and film presents. Manhattan going rogue isn't the kind of thing that's likely to BE stopped in any event. He's basically telling the Earth "continue these aggressions, and I will destroy you". Near as I can tell, no country in the world would risk nuclear aggression after what he does at the end of the film version of WATCHMEN.

And people, WATCHMEN makes it clear that Veidt's solution was meant to be a temporary one, at best. He intended to help lead the world into a better place after stopping nuclear war.


All this. Especially the bit about multiple cities.
 
Even if he did know that Ozzy was planning on framing him twice I'm not sure what the problem is. DM himself has said that he's a puppet following a script. If the script says that he's supposed to be fooled by Ozzy's cancer lies and then be framed to be the cause of millions of deaths worldwide, then he'll go along with it.

Yes, Miss Dawes, you're right: he's the puppet who sees the strings, but he's no Ozy's puppet. :o

The implied thing there is that Doc Manhattan is God's or creation's (or whatever one names it) puppet.

Multiple cities, and the bad taste of nuclear blasts are not Veidt's style, no matter how Guard or Norman can try to word it otherwise.

The book had humour, vision and a really daring imagination in the ending. That's just absent from da movie, mates. :cwink:
 
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