9.21 - Hostage - Discussion Thread (Spoilers)

[KalKai]

Martha knows about the upcoming apocalypse, she knows about Darkseid.

 

[Metamorpho1977]

Are these damn Legion pops on the Hype pissing anyone else off? They get right in the way of the change discussion board window list thing.

 

[Nirvana]

Decent episode. Could have been better.The Perry scenes were definitely the best.

 

[Webhead2006]

Well tonight was the 21st episode of season 9. Written by Jordan Hawley & Anne Coffel Saunders, and directed by Glen Winter. It also featured the 2nd appearance of Maxwell Lord played by Gil Billows. It was also the return of former smallville regular Annette O’Toole as Martha Kent, and the 2nd appearance for Michael McKean as Perry White. Both Perry and Martha who fans been wanting to see return for years.

I think Jordan and Anne wrote a good story. The plot of Lois and Perry working together on checkmate/red queen and the book of Rao was cool. As for the plot of Clark trying to find it too was good. Also I thought the intro of Martha and Perry to the farm was sweet and funny.

I thought they had some touching scenes with Martha and Clark, and Perry and Clark, and Martha and Lois and Perry and Lois. I think they wrote those scenes very well. It was hear warming scenes I thought.

As for watchtower it was sad to see it a total mess. I would have hated to see that set gone. I thought it was a great set for them all season long. Plus the jl does need a base of operations. Chloe’s scenes were pretty good too. I was glad the base was operational again in the end.

The whole thing with the book of Rao is getting to be an interesting storyline. I can’t wait to see how it turns out with next week season finale. Should be fun to see how this book plays into things and what it can do. Also from what we were told by Martha it looks like that are adapting that storyline of aliens getting sent to another world/IE lead into possibly Darkseid. Or it could just be another way to access the phantom zone.

Lord and Tess scenes were pretty cool. It was interesting it was all a mind trip. I thought it was pretty cool move there. Also the meet up with red queen for Perry and Lois was cool. Also liked how Lois saved Perry with assist with Clark as the blur. Also the scene with Clark trying to stop the red queen was good. Darn green k stopping him. Also it was nice that we found out the reason why Martha became the red queen. I thought it was nice that Clark learned it and it was a pretty logical plotline I think.

I liked that Perry got Lois and Clark their jobs again. I am glad they didn’t drag that out longer. It could have been a real drag as I said if we had them out of the planet for to long. Also loved the reference to Clark on the favor Perry owed him. Also it was nice that stern was mentioned again. Here hoping we see him again.

Directing tonight was top notch. Glen does wonderful work in the show. I always love when he directs an episode. He has good camera angles and movement. Also the setting and lighting was great in all scenes. The fake mansion looked great. The Kent farm was wonderful and warm and light. And watchtower looked dark and a mess.

Writing Anne and Jordan wrote a good script. There were a few hiccups here and there. But they wrote Perry and Martha great. Also the scenes with Lois and Clark were good. On top of the Perry and Lois team up. It was great to see these two work together finally in the show. I really hope we can get Martha and Perry to show up again next season. I would like if they can get Annette and Michael to at least do 2-4 episodes.

Acting tonight was also great. Tom did wonderful job as Clark. Showing the emotion with his mom and Lois. I think tom is doing great this year. Erica did great with Lois; she has been real fun these past two seasons. I think she did good work tonight. I enjoyed her scenes with Martha and Perry. Allison wasn’t in the episode the episode much but she was good in her short scenes. I thought she was really touching about wanting to have a regular life and stop being watchtower.

Justin too was only in like two scenes and it wasn’t really him but Justin did well in those scenes. Annette was great as Martha, loving and caring in the Perry/Clark/Lois scenes and commanding in her scene with Tess. Michael was spot on as Perry white, I loved they got great ceaser’s ghost and chief lines in there. It was a delight to see him again. Gil as lord was wicked great. I hope we get to see more of him soon.

All in all a pretty great episode. I enjoyed it a lot. We had some good stuff with Martha and Perry’s return. Here’s hoping we see them again soon. Also the plot with what the book can do is interesting. Can’t wait to see what goes down there. Also next week looks great. Can’t wait to see how the season ends.

 

[Webhead2006]

did any one check out the twitter thing with erica tonight?

 

[triplet]

Damn, that was GOOD.

 

[RagingTempest]

I really enjoyed this episode, not as much as "Sacrifice" but still good. Here is my breakdown:

The Good:

The best part of the episode were the character interactions -(Clark/Martha, Lois/Perry, Perry/Clark etc.) even Clark and Chloe's scenes were some of the best I've seen since "Hex".

Tess's Illusion-That was such a cool fake out and I'm glad the writers made that hostage sequence seem so bizarre and dream-like to clue in the audience before hand.

The Blur saving the crowd right in front of them-Awesome save and the way it was shot was very Supermanly.

Clark watching Lois save Perry and being so proud-Just priceless!t:

The Clois break/break-up-Surprisingly natural and realistic, with not too much angst or overdramatic dialogue. Even at their worst, Clois is SO much better than Clana ever was!

Great Ceasar's Ghost-Loved the Lois and Clark reference!

Chloe admitting her faults and mistakes-...about TIME!!

Clark discovering the Red Queen's identity on his own-Finally, the future Superman using his brain and not Chloe!


The Bad:

Everyone knowing about the Book of Rao and what it can do-Since when did Martha become an expert on sacred Kryptonian artifacts?

Justin Hartley's cameo-Even though Tess' illusion was well done, Oliver's appearence was pointless!

Merry-Their hook-up wasn't really the main focus but still, wasn't buying this hook-up. At least we know Martha isn't serious about Perry and still has Jonathan in her heart.

Maxell Lord..dead!?-Ummm...WHAT? He better not be!

Anyway, it was actually a good set up for the finale, let's just hope...

 

[epc11223]

I really enjoyed this episode, not as much as "Sacrifice" but still good. Here is my breakdown:

The Good:

The best part of the episode were the character interactions -(Clark/Martha, Lois/Perry, Perry/Clark etc.) even Clark and Chloe's scenes were some of the best I've seen since "Hex".

Tess's Illusion-That was such a cool fake out and I'm glad the writers made that hostage sequence seem so bizarre and dream-like to clue in the audience before hand.

The Blur saving the crowd right in front of them-Awesome save and the way it was shot was very Supermanly.

Clark watching Lois save Perry and being so proud-Just priceless!t:

The Clois break/break-up-Surprisingly natural and realistic, with not too much angst or overdramatic dialogue. Even at their worst, Clois is SO much better than Clana ever was!

Great Ceasar's Ghost-Loved the Lois and Clark reference!

Chloe admitting her faults and mistakes-...about TIME!!

Clark discovering the Red Queen's identity on his own-Finally, the future Superman using his brain and not Chloe!


The Bad:

Everyone knowing about the Book of Rao and what it can do-Since when did Martha become an expert on sacred Kryptonian artifacts?

Justin Hartley's cameo-Even though Tess' illusion was well done, Oliver's appearence was pointless!

Merry-Their hook-up wasn't really the main focus but still, wasn't buying this hook-up. At least we know Martha isn't serious about Perry and still has Jonathan in her heart.

Maxell Lord..dead!?-Ummm...WHAT? He better not be!

Anyway, it was actually a good set up for the finale, let's just hope...

just wanted to let you know that "Great Caesar's Ghost" is from the comics. You're thinking of "Grey Shades of Elvis" from Lois and Clark. In that incarnation of Perry, he was a huge Elvis fan. I thought the line was ok. Don't hate me, but i thought it came more natural when Perry said it in Superman Returns. This was a nice homage but felt a little forced. Overall i thought this episode was ok. I really don't like Martha being Red Queen or a senator for that matter, but what can you do. I also didn't care for Martha being so well verse in the book of Rao and they really didn't explain how she would know something like that. Smallville has been really weird. The shows have some good scenes but the story is just not working for me. I am looking forward to the season finale, I'm hoping it doesn't disappoint. I loved the commercial for it with the symbol of the s, but really hoping thats not all to it.

 

[Prison Mike]

This episode was kind of mediocre. The only things I liked were the conversations about Jonathan (I really miss him) and the end scene where Martha reveals that Clark could get sucked into another dimension with the Kandorians. I didn't like the fact that Martha was the Red Queen. I also found the whole Red Queen storyline kind of silly. The way the picture of a red queen kept popping up was really cheesy IMO. The Checkmate organization I was fine with because they took themselves seriously but I kept laughing everytime they brought up the Red Queen. Looking forward to the season finale though.

 

[SpideyVille]

For me, it's weird cuz after the episode and all the talk of Jonathan and Martha and all that stuff, I felt like watching some of the older episodes as a way of going back to the "simpler" days of Smallville. But then I started to think about how the show was for the first couple of seasons and it really was a different show. I mean in some way it was probably a better show in term of writing and directing and because there wasn't as much going on in offscreenville .. but at the same time, I feel like in this past season and even last season to some extent, although the focus hasn't been entirely on Clark, there's still something about watching his story progress and his journey get closer to finally reaching that point where he finally becomes superman that keeps me watching. It's almost like I can't figure out which part of the series has been the best since both ends bring something special and unique to the table. Even though next season is likely to be the last, I'm really going to miss it when it's finally over.

 

[KBX]

Pretty good episode. In all honestly any episode that brings in Martha and Perry is a good episode in my book. I thought Clark/Lois/Perry/Martha all had scenes that they shined in. Espically at the dinner table were Lois couldn't lie to Misses K.

Atleast this years 2nd half of the seasons has been pretty good, compared to seasons past...

 

[Man of Tomorrow]

I thought this one was mediocre as well.

- I wasn't a fan of Martha as the Red Queen and involved with Checkmate covert operations. It wasn't as awful as SuperLana, Lois as Stiletto, or Chloe the Watchtower, but it was still quite bizarre and lame characterization for good old Ma Kent. How is she an expert on Kryptonian artifacts? This ends justifying the means thing (to protect Clark) is getting old too.

- I didn't like Perry as a soft, gentle fatherly figure to Lois and Clark, being domesticated through his relationship with Clark's mom. I'm disapointed they didn't really end Martha/Perry with Perry still wanting to go after Clark's mom. It's all really strange.

- Chloe's neat and tidy resolution was too easy and convenient; especially after all the dark stuff she's done this season and the last. She got off real easy, obviously TPTB realized she is going to be around next season and are dragging her out.

- The Tess subplot, involving her feelings about Oliver, was pretty boring filler. This Chloe/Oliver/Tess thing is getting too much focus.

- They had Vala resolve to join Zod and now they're undermining that within a week? Wow.

- Charade showed that Lord/The Black King was recruited by the Red Queen/Martha. Does that mean the Red Queen killed him via cellphone in that last scene? That one part confused me I admit.

As much as I like Annette O'Toole and Michael McKean, I didn't like what this episode did with their characters. After last week's setup, I expected bigger things here.

PS: A small nitpick but I hate when the characters constantly refer to themselves in the third person; "Lois Lane" "Clark Kent" it's overly unnatural (and pretentious sounding) dialogue. It's not like we constantly need reminders of who they are.

 

[Mig-El]

I feel like this could have been a great episode; I loved Martha and Perry's return. It's a good episode, but at the same time I see it as sloppy writing, too many plot holes.

How did Lois & Perry get a picture of the Book of Rao? How did Martha know about what the BoR would do for Kryptonians? How did Tess find the BoR?

All of these questions could have been strong story points if the writers had foundations built to the previous episodes or the ideas were spread throughout the season. The episode is another example of what Season 9 has been: the writing being all over the place. Checkmate and the Kandorian arcs have always felt like two separate seasons forcefully combined into one; these arcs could have been more convincing if they were spread throughout the season. Instead, the writers gave us fillers (Warrior Angel, Silver Banshee, etc) when they could have built stories related to the main arcs like possibly having Checkmate discover early on that by acquiring the BoR they could have a chance against the Kandorians.

The writers have had so many potentially great stories this Season 9, but they fall short on execution.

Btw, how is it that Martha can pull off a Batman disappearance?

 

[Milos]

Horrible episode, I can't believe they wasted Martha's return on this crap.
Yeah, I liked Martha as Red Queen and the last Chloe scene but everything else was a mess!
The episode title is "Hostage" and the actual hostage (Tess) had 5 min of ST in the episode!

When was she kidnapped by Lord, when did she took the Book of Rao from Kent farm???? Wee should of seen all that stuff instead of Clois crap!

And when did Lois found out about the Book?
I'm not even gonna talk about Lois and retcons about her education and interests!

And I feel horrible about Clark dragging Chloe back into Watchtower when she doesn't wont to be there, I hate the Watchtower set!
Complete mess!!!!!

 

[Superfreak]

great episode: but I must say, I called this one a couple of years ago. Totally predictable.

that being said, the delivery of said episode was superb. I'd say this is probably one of the better 'put together episodes' that smallville has outputted in a long time.

 

[ironman29758]

Horrible episode, I can't believe they wasted Martha's return on this crap.
Yeah, I liked Martha as Red Queen and the last Chloe scene but everything else was a mess!
The episode title is "Hostage" and the actual hostage (Tess) had 5 min of ST in the episode!

When was she kidnapped by Lord, when did she took the Book of Rao from Kent farm???? Wee should of seen all that stuff instead of Clois crap!

And when did Lois found out about the Book?
I'm not even gonna talk about Lois and retcons about her education and interests!

And I feel horrible about Clark dragging Chloe back into Watchtower when she doesn't wont to be there, I hate the Watchtower set!
Complete mess!!!!!

Lois said that since Conspiracy happen she investigated more about it and figgured about the aliens. Lois went to high scool before she went to college before she went to Smallville High and the Torch so she could have had high school journalism before and grew into her dislike of reporting.
Chloe appologizing was a good Start but I didn't like the whole "even when I was hurting you I was protecting you" bs, Clark and Chloe are important characters but Zod and the Kandorians are going to destroy the world so they have to put their needs into order to save the world. I like Perry/Lois, Clark/Martha, Clark/Perry and Clark/Lois parts. The Tess part was kind of wierd.

Max Lord died and came back to life before so I don't see why this is any different.

 

[Superfreak]

after a rewatch, my only beef is this: this episode provided no momentum to the overall arc. Ie. I didn't feel like next week's episode is the finale.

 

[Metamorpho1977]

Wasn't it Darkseid that brought Max Lord back one time?

 

[Man of Tomorrow]

Checkmate and the Kandorian arcs have always felt like two separate seasons forcefully combined into one; these arcs could have been more convincing if they were spread throughout the season.

The arcs could have worked well (Kryptonians VS Humanity) if TPTB didn't rely so much on Offscreenville to develop them.

Checkmate could have been a powerful force (like Section 31 on Trek) but having Stuart and Martha Kent as top Checkmate agents? AND Tess.. They wasted a good opportunity here.

 

[Webhead2006]

Ratings are in for Hostage:
www.***********/mattmtvguy

#Smallville 'Hostage' delivers 1.92 million viewers/0.8 rating.

Sucks it was a bit down, as i said in the ratings thread i was hoping for 2.3-2.5mill range. Since before the preempt last week was factored in we had 2.37 for sacrifice. But who knows what were the factors. Probably was ironman 2 release, and also i read on ksite that there was an unexpected preempt for i believe san antonio tx area. Now i dont know how much viewership factors there.

But i still enjoyed the episode alot myself. and cant wait to see how the season wraps next week. Also hoping we get a little higher ratings for season finale.

As for the book of rao and martha/red queen knowing about it. We got to remember john joned mentioned he was working with someone else, and it was likely martha. Plus he was friends with jorel so he probably knew of the books secrets and told martha them. As for tess knowing about the book and having it. she probably took it around the time she had the jorel clone. maybe she learned about it from then. And we do know she hacked into chloe's video feeds earlier in the season. So she could have gotten to it before chloe found out jorel left it in the kent house.

Also here is the episode screen times for characters from that person on kryptonsite boards:

BOUROUX
Forum Whiz




Join Date: Oct 06
Posts: 721


Hostage screentime
Episode 9-21 Hostage

Clark: 21m, 10s
Chloe: 5m, 13s
Lois: 19m, 19s
Oliver: 1m, 44s
Tess: 5m, 32s
Zod: 0m, 00s
Martha: 17m, 12s
Perry: 15m, 34s

Year to Date ST/episode

Clark: 394m, 22s (21)
Chloe: 198m, 02s (21)
Lois: 278m, 10s (17)
Oliver: 157m, 33s (16)
Tess: 111m, 13s (16)
Zod: 116m, 05s (11)


Small amount of screentime for Chloe but the quality compensates.
Allison Mack is amazing.

I thought lois/clark/marth/perry's times were great. i was glad all 4 of them had the key focus for the episode. Chloe was used well in her short time, same as tess. As for the fake oliver he really wasnt even needed for the episode with how little he was in it.

 

[ironman29758]

Wasn't it Darkseid that brought Max Lord back one time?

no it was the Blackest Night/Brightest Day that brought him back to life when the black ring brought him back from the dead and the white light brought 12(Martian Manhunter, Max Lord, Aquaman, Hawkman and Hawkgirl,Captain Boomerang/ Digger Hawkins, Firestorm,Professer Zoom, Jade(Alan Scott's daughter), Osiris(Isis's younger brother), and Boston Brand/Deadman).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackest_Night
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brightest_Day
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell_Lord

 

[p4poetic]

Great Ceasar's Ghost-Loved the Lois and Clark reference!

.

Actually, Perry in Lois and Clark said 'Great Shades of Elvis'. In The Adventures of Superman tv show and the comics is where Perry says 'Great Caesar's Ghost'.

I loved the Blur save too. A very Superman moment.

I thought this one was mediocre as well.

- I wasn't a fan of Martha as the Red Queen and involved with Checkmate covert operations. It wasn't as awful as SuperLana, Lois as Stiletto, or Chloe the Watchtower, but it was still quite bizarre and lame characterization for good old Ma Kent. How is she an expert on Kryptonian artifacts? This ends justifying the means thing (to protect Clark) is getting old too.

- I didn't like Perry as a soft, gentle fatherly figure to Lois and Clark, being domesticated through his relationship with Clark's mom. I'm disapointed they didn't really end Martha/Perry with Perry still wanting to go after Clark's mom. It's all really strange.

- Chloe's neat and tidy resolution was too easy and convenient; especially after all the dark stuff she's done this season and the last. She got off real easy, obviously TPTB realized she is going to be around next season and are dragging her out.

- The Tess subplot, involving her feelings about Oliver, was pretty boring filler. This Chloe/Oliver/Tess thing is getting too much focus.

- They had Vala resolve to join Zod and now they're undermining that within a week? Wow.

- Charade showed that Lord/The Black King was recruited by the Red Queen/Martha. Does that mean the Red Queen killed him via cellphone in that last scene? That one part confused me I admit.

As much as I like Annette O'Toole and Michael McKean, I didn't like what this episode did with their characters. After last week's setup, I expected bigger things here.

PS: A small nitpick but I hate when the characters constantly refer to themselves in the third person; "Lois Lane" "Clark Kent" it's overly unnatural (and pretentious sounding) dialogue. It's not like we constantly need reminders of who they are.

I agree with all these points.

As for referring to themselves as third person, I don't know, I find it endearing in a 'this show is about Superman' kind of way. Maybe its just me.

 

[Man of Tomorrow]

The third person comment was just a personal peeve for SV in general. They've been overdoing it the last two seasons especially ex; "Lois and Clark, Clark and Lois" etc

The dialogue almost makes it seem like the characters are aware of their own future importance, and kinda takes me out of the episode and the believability of their words.

 

[gohei_]

When did they change the design and color for the Book of Rao? Was it not green and from a rock-like material?

 

[Metamorpho1977]

no it was the Blackest Night/Brightest Day that brought him back to life when the black ring brought him back from the dead and the white light brought 12(Martian Manhunter, Max Lord, Aquaman, Hawkman and Hawkgirl,Captain Boomerang/ Digger Hawkins, Firestorm,Professer Zoom, Jade(Alan Scott's daughter), Osiris(Isis's younger brother), and Boston Brand/Deadman).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackest_Night
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brightest_Day
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell_Lord

I mean before. Hasn't he died twice?